[Mitchell]

The thought of a hedgehog on a zebra crossing has absolutely made my day.

[Livia]

I think that animal welfare standard in the UK are FAR above the majority of EU countries. I'm baffled at this thinking that being in the EU has made us all fluffy and loving.

[Withano]

https://www.indy100.com/article/anim...y-tory-8068691

List of mp's who voted this through. My local guys on here also it's only tories, dups, and 2 independents on this list.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I think that animal welfare standard in the UK are FAR above the majority of EU countries. I'm baffled at this thinking that being in the EU has made us all fluffy and loving.

Who mentioned the EU?... What has the EU to do with the issue here and the vote in OUR parliament on animal sentience.
Don't try to muddy the waters by pointing at other parts of the world and their positions on animal welfare but focus on ours, that is the topic of the thread.
What are your thoughts on the outcome of the vote?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Who mentioned the EU?... What has the EU to do with the issue here and the vote in OUR parliament on animal sentience.
Don't try to muddy the waters by pointing at other parts of the world and their positions on animal welfare but focus on ours, that is the topic of the thread.
What are your thoughts on the outcome of the vote?

I agree. I think Livias point was that the majority of animal welfare regulations before now were mostly EU laws. But I don't think that's directly relevant. This is more about what is happening, than what isn't happening.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

https://www.indy100.com/article/anim...y-tory-8068691

List of mp's who voted this through. My local guys on here also it's only tories, dups, and 2 independents on this list.

Hardly surprising to most I think. Not because labour ministers care more about the animals but because they are trying to pretend they care - for obvious reasons. Not rocket science.

Got to be seen to be doing the right thing after all. Doesn’t wash with me. Caring about animals is not political. It just gets used by those with an agenda.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Withano

https://www.indy100.com/article/anim...y-tory-8068691

List of mp's who voted this through. My local guys on here also it's only tories, dups, and 2 independents on this list.

Hardly a surprise from the people who would have legalised again hunting with hounds,had they won a larger majority in June.
Sickening to see the extreme DUP helping them win the day too.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Hardly surprising to most I think. Not because labour ministers care more about the animals but because they are trying to pretend they care - for obvious reasons. Not rocket science.

Got to be seen to be doing the right thing after all. Doesn’t wash with me. Caring about animals is not political. It just gets used by those with an agenda.

What an odd way to defend tories / slander labour.

Bloody Labour doing the right thing I dont believe you care therefore youre just as bad

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Didn't think that brexit was being used to remove rights and protections?...Think again

'MPs have voted to reject the inclusion of animal sentience – the admission that animals feel emotion and pain – into the EU Withdrawal Bill.

The move has been criticised by animal rights activists, who say the vote undermines environment secretary Michael Gove’s pledge to prioritise animal rights during Brexit.

The majority of animal welfare legislation comes from the EU. The UK Government is tasked with adopting EU laws directly after March 2019 but has dismissed animal sentience.'

This will impact in all areas of animal welfare, can people still be convicted of animal cruelty? Could it be used to bring back fox hunting or badger baiting?
Will regulations on animal slaughter be relaxed?

My feeling also is that standards in farming will suffer with more animals kept in smaller spaced and potentially battery fed like chickens.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8064676.html

Originally Posted by Livia

I think that animal welfare standard in the UK are FAR above the majority of EU countries. I'm baffled at this thinking that being in the EU has made us all fluffy and loving.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Who mentioned the EU?... What has the EU to do with the issue here and the vote in OUR parliament on animal sentience.
Don't try to muddy the waters by pointing at other parts of the world and their positions on animal welfare but focus on ours, that is the topic of the thread.
What are your thoughts on the outcome of the vote?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Hardly surprising to most I think. Not because labour ministers care more about the animals but because they are trying to pretend they care - for obvious reasons. Not rocket science.

Got to be seen to be doing the right thing after all. Doesn’t wash with me. Caring about animals is not political. It just gets used by those with an agenda.

So conservative MPs just don't care that we know they don't care?
We knew that long before this vote.

Won't this outcome be used by those with an agenda then? It'll be back to animal testing in labs or cosmetics as their only dumb animals with no feelings.

Spoiler:

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So conservative MPs just don't care that we know they don't care?
We knew that long before this vote.

Won't this outcome be used by those with an agenda then? It'll be back to animal testing in labs or cosmetics as their only dumb animals with no feelings.

Spoiler:

And what a coincidence that not a single labour minister voted for it - because they are all such lovely caring individuals. Yep believe that! Care more about keeping their jobs more like.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by smudgie

The decision on sentience wasn't taken in the EU, that was the meaning behind that statement Smudgie. My post was in relation to the decision taken in our parliament only.

There is as always the challenge from Livia that we have better protections than anywhere, but where are they? Where is the burden of proof that our animal rights protections are better? Of course imagining for a second they are will they still be when the issue of animal sentience is applied to preexisting legislation? Will animals be afforded the same protections due to the fact it has been asserted they have no capacity for emotion?

I'm sorry I confused you but again I'm conscious of the conversation being diverted into an EU bashing exercise rather than a discussion on how our independence is being mapped.
We are a nation of animal lovers, does this ruling speak for us and what will it mean for the future of animal welfare in England?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

And what a coincidence that not a single labour minister voted for it - because they are all such lovely caring individuals. Yep believe that! Care more about keeping their jobs more like.

And the conservatives don't care about keeping them?... Your post makes no sense brillo, who is gong to get rid of them based on the outcome of a vote?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And the conservatives don't care about keeping them?... Your post makes no sense brillo, who is gong to get rid of them based on the outcome of a vote?

Er perhaps a priminister in waiting desperate to make out all his labour MPs are such caring individuals. That is the socialist mantra is it not - that they hold the moral high ground with no other political ambition than to help the have-nots.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Er perhaps a priminister in waiting desperate to make out all his labour MPs are such caring individuals. That is the socialist mantra is it not - that they hold the moral high ground with no other political ambition than to help the have-nots.

I homestly think that very close to 100% of people in the country would have voted against this movement. That includes snp/labour/green/libdem/every other party.

The gymnastics youre going through to justify this on some level is weird. Sometimes its okay to agree with a party you dislike / disagree with a party you like. Thats basically adulthood, Brillo.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The decision on sentience wasn't taken in the EU, that was the meaning behind that statement Smudgie. My post was in relation to the decision taken in our parliament only.

There is as always the challenge from Livia that we have better protections than anywhere, but where are they? Where is the burden of proof that our animal rights protections are better? Of course imagining for a second they are will they still be when the issue of animal sentience is applied to preexisting legislation? Will animals be afforded the same protections due to the fact it has been asserted they have no capacity for emotion?

I'm sorry I confused you but again I'm conscious of the conversation being diverted into an EU bashing exercise rather than a discussion on how our independence is being mapped.
We are a nation of animal lovers, does this ruling speak for us and what will it mean for the future of animal welfare in England?

Ah right.
Just that the EU was mentioned in the post.
I can actually see where Livia is coming from, in as much as we do have decent animal welfare here, better than some EU countries.
I know people bring up the foxhunting, but I really can't see a bill to overturn it ever getting through parliament.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Er perhaps a priminister in waiting desperate to make out all his labour MPs are such caring individuals. That is the socialist mantra is it not - that they hold the moral high ground with no other political ambition than to help the have-nots.

Again I could flip your argument to suggest that the PM at the moment doesn't give a toss how caring the torys appear, and she has no other goal but to push the capitalist mantra and help the haves.

Out of interest what's wrong with the moral high ground and wanting to help people and animals... you almost sound proud that the govt we have atm is doing the polar opposite, that's rather strange imo.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Again I could flip your argument to suggest that the PM at the moment doesn't give a toss how caring the torys appear, and she has no other goal but to push the capitalist mantra and help the haves.

Out of interest what's wrong with the moral high ground and wanting to help people and animals... you almost sound proud that the govt we have atm is doing the polar opposite, that's rather strange imo.

Of course I’m not pleased, but if the truth be known many of the Labour MPs are no better. It’s all an act to ‘out-do’ the Tories. Not that you would ever admit to that.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Ah right.
Just that the EU was mentioned in the post.
I can actually see where Livia is coming from, in as much as we do have decent animal welfare here, better than some EU countries.
I know people bring up the foxhunting, but I really can't see a bill to overturn it ever getting through parliament.

Why not, with the DUP deal they can force anything through they got this through didn't they. It will happen.
It was mentioned but it was not the topic offered for discussion, we had decent animal welfare as it was fought hard for as are most rights and protections.
This vote is the first step in removing those protections, if it's deemed that animals don't have the capacity to feel pain or have emotions why do they need rights?.. they become nothing but a commodity.

Even with the laws we had they were not enforced adequately now there will be no duty to.

'Animals in labs across Northern Ireland suffered 22,214 experiments in 2016 - even with law recognising their ability to feel pain.

And shockingly there was a 37% rise in the number of cats used in trials, 56% of which were for basic research.
Now a DUP-backed Tory vote to remove EU legislation recognising ‘animal sentience’ has put the future of animal welfare across the UK at risk.

The highly-criticised “backward step” was decided by a vote of 313 to 295 at Westminster, even though it was the UK that convinced the EU to recognise animals as ‘sentient beings’ who feel pain, fear and hunger in 1997.

“It is not good enough for the government to say that animal sentience is covered by the UK Animal Welfare Act – the fact is, it isn’t,” said chief executive of Cruelty Free International, Michelle Thew.

“It certainly takes no account of the pain and suffering felt by animals in laboratories across the country.

“Statistics from Northern Ireland this week show that hugely controversial animal experiments are sadly far from being significantly reduced.”

Universities, charities and commercial operations were responsible for the tests, almost half of which caused moderate to severe suffering to animals (4% severe and 43% moderate).'


If this is the level of 'protection' offered now what will it be now it's been passed that animals don't suffer.... will things for them get better, or worse?



http://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/22...thern-13932771

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Of course I’m not pleased, but if the truth be known many of the Labour MPs are no better. It’s all an act to ‘out-do’ the Tories. Not that you would ever admit to that.

Out do them in what respect... To take scientific, as well as moral and ethical considerations into their decision making?

Isn't that what we want from our representatives, your theory that the commons is a playground full of tit for tat children says more about your own thought processes, out of interest what would you say the logic behind the decision was, do you agree with it personally?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

out of interest what would you say the logic behind the decision was

Also my question, there must be one obvious positive to this law that we've all missed if brillo believes 500+ odd mps would agree with this change

[Kizzy]

True, there must be a really sensible, reasonable reason that I've somehow overlooked with regard to this issue.

[MTVN]

The fuller picture:

This week a number of stories claiming the Tories had voted that animals are not sentient beings went mega-viral.

An article on the Independent website – shared thousands of times on social media – reported "The Tories have rejected all scientists and voted that animals don’t feel pain”. The Evening Standard claimed they “just voted that animals cannot feel pain or emotions”. The Indy, which has truly become one of the most downmarket trash clickbait websites around, even named and shamed the Tory MPs “who voted legislation on animals feeling pain and emotion”. These attacks were tweeted out by celebrities like Ben Fogle and Sue Perkins, politicians including Caroline Lucas and failed LibDem MP Sarah Olney, and petitions were signed by hundreds of thousands of unwitting animal lovers. The stats are huge...

Just one problem. It is fake news…

During last Wednesday’s debate, Tory MPs repeatedly explained that the government already recognised animal sentience and that the amendment was flawed. Read it here in Hansard– Tory MP after Tory MP stood up and agreed that animals are sentient. No MPs argued against animal sentience. It is just not true to say, as the Indy did, that “The Tories have rejected all scientists and voted that animals don’t feel pain”. Anyone who has seen the Environment Secretary with his Bichon Frise Snowy, or indeed the hedgehog above, knows these viral articles are fake news. This made up story, circulated by the Tories’ opponents for solely cynical reasons, is cutting through to animal lovers who think they can trust things they believe on the Independent website. This morning Michael Gove categorically committed the government to animal sentience once and for all. He couldn’t be clearer:

“This government will ensure that any necessary changes required to UK law are made in a rigorous and comprehensive way to ensure animal sentience is recognised after we leave the EU.”

Will that go as viral as the fake news BS that hoodwinked thousands in the last week?

https://order-order.com/2017/11/23/v...illion-people/

[MTVN]

Even the Mirror has attacked the Independent story:

'No, MPs did not pass a vote saying animals can’t feel pain or emotion': http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politic...e-11572216.amp

[AnnieK]

Bloody media whipping up a storm based not in true facts....shocker