[parmnion]

Saying its broken....and not working....


Is it just me that thinks the drs and nurses habe been saying this for years...but now the don says it...oh no..no..thats NOT allowed.

[jaxie]

Trump may have done the NHS a huge favour. I predict a swift injection of government cash.

[LeatherTrumpet]

reading my guardian and daily mirror he is right its on its knees

[Toy Soldier]

The problem is that people will take "broken and not working" to mean "it does not and cannot work", it's "faulty" and a new system is needed.

The reason it's broken and not working is because it's been neglected and not enough thought nor funding has been put into it's maintenance. If you ignore the clunking sound coming from your car and skimp on getting it fixed, eventually it's going to grind to a hault. It's literally the exact same scenario. Except that with the current government, the neglect is deliberate.

[Kazanne]

Yes ,why are they angry ? they have been saying for ages it's broken,I presume Trump has seen the marches etc,and come to the same conclusion,when in reality IF money was spent better from the fat cats on top perhaps they would find it easier. Is trump right or wrong

[Vicky.]

I wouldn't necessarily say its broken, but it is severely underfunded. And there are changes that can and maybe shoud be made to help the NHS. I really do not want to end up in an American style system where the poorest are basically left to fend for themelves (though I believe this Obama care if it still exists helps that? Not up to date on American stuff tbh)

I flip between thinking this is a good idea and a bad idea. Means testing certain treatments. For example gastric bands (when the obesity is not caused by a medical problem) or the likes of plastic surgeries. Not sure if we still do boobjobs on the NHS but stuff like that really should not be funded if we do. With the exception of rebuilding after mastectomies and such. I think this would ease the pressure, but on the other hand it would maybe just speed up the privatization of the NHS and put us even closer to an American type model.

But yeah, at present the NHS is pretty ****ed. Most NHS staff I know acknowledge this. Where are these people kicking off because Trump said this? And was that really all he said or was there more?

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The problem is that people will take "broken and not working" to mean "it does not and cannot work", it's "faulty" and a new system is needed.

The reason it's broken and not working is because it's been neglected and not enough thought nor funding has been put into it's maintenance. If you ignore the clunking sound coming from your car and skimp on getting it fixed, eventually it's going to grind to a hault. It's literally the exact same scenario. Except that with the current government, the neglect is deliberate.

perhaps it could be run better rather than just throw money at it hand over fist. I am going to guess that millions of pounds are wasted on contracts and paying for things that are about 10 times the actual market value?

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I wouldn't necessarily say its broken, but it is severely underfunded. And there are changes that can and maybe shoud be made to help the NHS. I really do not want to end up in an American style system where the poorest are basically left to fend for themelves (though I believe this Obama care if it still exists helps that? Not up to date on American stuff tbh)

I flip between thinking this is a good idea and a bad idea. Means testing certain treatments. For example gastric bands (when the obesity is not caused by a medical problem) or the likes of plastic surgeries. Not sure if we still do boobjobs on the NHS but stuff like that really should not be funded if we do. With the exception of rebuilding after mastectomies and such. I think this would ease the pressure, but on the other hand it would maybe just speed up the privatization of the NHS and put us even closer to an American type model.

But yeah, at present the NHS is pretty ****ed. Most NHS staff I know acknowledge this. Where are these people kicking off because Trump said this? And was that really all he said or was there more?

They pay a huge, and I mean huge monthly fee for Obama care, more than the average person would put toward a mortgage in the UK. So, give me our NHS any day of the week

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

perhaps it could be run better rather than just throw money at it hand over fist. I am going to guess that millions of pounds are wasted on contracts and paying for things that are about 10 times the actual market value?

Yes but where do you think that mismanagement originates, and who do you think is at the top of the chain when it comes to setting out a roadmap for how to sort it out? The NHS being fleeced on meds and supplies is something that the government could legislate against. The introduction of vast amounts of administration and red tape at the top was also due to changes put into force by government.

I'm not saying that there aren't problems that go beyond funding, throwing money at it in increasing amounts isn't the answer, but it would take an investment (alongside a good plan) to actually start sorting it out (so that it runs more efficiently in future). You can use the car analogy there, too... if your engine is ****ed, and you skimp on minor repairs, you're going to end up paying out more on major repairs and fuel in the long run. But to get it running efficiently and take care of those small problems, you're going to have to shell out for a good mechanic and a major overhaul short term.

[Niamh.]

It surely better than what they have in the US though..........

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

They pay a huge, and I mean huge monthly fee for Obama care, more than the average person would put toward a mortgage in the UK. So, give me our NHS any day of the week

Ah right. I thought Obamacare was kind of like, a safetynet NHS kind of thing for the less well off. Given how much people seemed to love it So its basically just more huge insurance fees?

[Tom4784]

It's because Trump is saying it's broken and isn't working BECAUSE he wants to prevent the US getting their own NHS. There's a big difference there to saying 'The NHS is failing, we need to do something to improve it.'

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Means testing certain treatments. For example gastric bands (when the obesity is not caused by a medical problem) or the likes of plastic surgeries. Not sure if we still do boobjobs on the NHS but stuff like that really should not be funded if we do. With the exception of rebuilding after mastectomies and such.

These things are a problem but tbh they're not the major issue when it comes to unnecessary treatment costs. Yes, these surgeries are expensive but the number being done is relatively small...

...the MAIN problem is minor injuries and ailments. People going to their GP for antibiotics because they have a sniffle, or A&E for any minor bump / scrape / burn. Each individual treatment cost is of course far lower than those big surgeries... but there are a few people getting major surgeries. There are literally MILLIONS of people using the NHS for things that they could, and should, quite effectively treat at home on their own. I genuinely believe that a huge part of the solution is general health education, so that people can accurately assess their own health / an injury and know how to treat minor things without needing to lean on healthcare. Of course sometimes you're going to be sick enough to need medical attention, or sustain an injury that might need looking at, but people seem to be A) really bad at knowing the difference and B) really impatient (e.g. people will go to a doctor if they're ill and not totally better after 2 days, EVEN IF their symptoms are obviously improving not worsening... let your body heal! Let your immune system work!)

But yeah... those "little things" stack up to costing needless fortunes. It's not even always that people are entitled / selfish, either - people are anxious about their health, they are inclined to want "an expert opinion" and have totally lost the ability to self-assess and treat minor ailments. There should be a mandatory weekly class in schools - it's just as important as something like P.E.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Ah right. I thought Obamacare was kind of like, a safetynet NHS kind of thing for the less well off. Given how much people seemed to love it So its basically just more huge insurance fees?

From what I understand there is a VERY basic "safetynet" system (e.g. a homeless person would still be treated in a local hospital) but it's literally for things that are immediately life-threatening... they stabilise you and patch you up and the rest is your problem. They wouldn't, for example, treat a painful condition if it wasn't actually killing you.

Obamacare (as I understand it) is essentially a means-tested pseudo-insurance... it works like standard health insurance except that it's subsidised based on income? I think it's mainly aimed at lower-wage working people if they don't get a health insurance package through their employer, but anyone can have it (the more your income, the more you will pay for it).

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

These things are a problem but tbh they're not the major issue when it comes to unnecessary treatment costs. Yes, these surgeries are expensive but the number being done is relatively small...

...the MAIN problem is minor injuries and ailments. People going to their GP for antibiotics because they have a sniffle, or A&E for any minor bump / scrape / burn. Each individual treatment cost is of course far lower than those big surgeries... but there are a few people getting major surgeries. There are literally MILLIONS of people using the NHS for things that they could, and should, quite effectively treat at home on their own. I genuinely believe that a huge part of the solution is general health education, so that people can accurately assess their own health / an injury and know how to treat minor things without needing to lean on healthcare. Of course sometimes you're going to be sick enough to need medical attention, or sustain an injury that might need looking at, but people seem to be A) really bad at knowing the difference and B) really impatient (e.g. people will go to a doctor if they're ill and not totally better after 2 days, EVEN IF their symptoms are obviously improving not worsening... let your body heal! Let your immune system work!)

But yeah... those "little things" stack up to costing needless fortunes. It's not even always that people are entitled / selfish, either - people are anxious about their health, they are inclined to want "an expert opinion" and have totally lost the ability to self-assess and treat minor ailments. There should be a mandatory weekly class in schools - it's just as important as something like P.E.

Yeah I know those are a problem too. I genuinely do not know why GPs do paracetamol on prescription? It costs a fortune..there was a notice up in my doctors saying that whats spend on paracetamol prescriptions ( think it was just in my area too) could fund like 50 nurses for a year or something like that. So..if they know this, why the **** are they still doling out paracetamol on prescription?! It costs like 20p, even the poorest of the poor could afford to buy some. Same with the free calpol and such for children really..everytime I go to the chemist counter with some they inform me I can get it free if I fill out a form...I know calpol is more than tablets are but still. Surely that should only be for extremely low income families, not universal.

Why people go to the GP for coughs and colds I will never know. Same for demanding antibiotics when they dont work on them...but again, why the hell do GPs give them?

I don't think 111 help matters at all. They tell everyone to go to A+E it seems.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yeah I know those are a problem too. I genuinely do not know why GPs do paracetamol on prescription? It costs a fortune..there was a notice up in my doctors saying that whats spend on paracetamol prescriptions ( think it was just in my area too) could fund like 50 nurses for a year or something like that. So..if they know this, why the **** are they still doling out paracetamol on precription?! It costs like 20p, even the poorest of the poor could afford to buy some. Same with the free calpol and such for children really..everytime I go to the chemist counter with some they inform me I can get it free if I fill out a form...I know calpol is more than tablets are but still. Surely that should only be for extremely low income families, not universal.

Why people go to the GP for coughs and colds I will never know. Same for demanding antibiotics when they dont work on them...but again, why the hell do GPs give them?

I don't think 111 help matters at all. They tell everyone to go to A+E it seems.

Over here we pay to see the GP but lower income/unemployed people etc can qualify for medical cards which means the GP is free and it's something that's been complained about alot actually, that it's always those with medical cards that go to see the GP for every sniffle, so it seems to be abused when it's free and thought about a bit more when you have to fork out for it yourself

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

These things are a problem but tbh they're not the major issue when it comes to unnecessary treatment costs. Yes, these surgeries are expensive but the number being done is relatively small...

...the MAIN problem is minor injuries and ailments. People going to their GP for antibiotics because they have a sniffle, or A&E for any minor bump / scrape / burn. Each individual treatment cost is of course far lower than those big surgeries... but there are a few people getting major surgeries. There are literally MILLIONS of people using the NHS for things that they could, and should, quite effectively treat at home on their own. I genuinely believe that a huge part of the solution is general health education, so that people can accurately assess their own health / an injury and know how to treat minor things without needing to lean on healthcare. Of course sometimes you're going to be sick enough to need medical attention, or sustain an injury that might need looking at, but people seem to be A) really bad at knowing the difference and B) really impatient (e.g. people will go to a doctor if they're ill and not totally better after 2 days, EVEN IF their symptoms are obviously improving not worsening... let your body heal! Let your immune system work!)

But yeah... those "little things" stack up to costing needless fortunes. It's not even always that people are entitled / selfish, either - people are anxious about their health, they are inclined to want "an expert opinion" and have totally lost the ability to self-assess and treat minor ailments. There should be a mandatory weekly class in schools - it's just as important as something like P.E.

That’s the crux of it TS.
Common sense, or maybe common knowledge seems to have gone awol.
Why on earth anybody with a cough or sniffle thinks they need a doctor or antibiotics is beyond me.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by smudgie

That’s the crux of it TS.
Common sense, or maybe common knowledge seems to have gone awol.
Why on earth anybody with a cough or sniffle thinks they need a doctor or antibiotics is beyond me.

My wife has a friend who drives us nuts, she gets her daughters antibiotics for EVERY little thing. I'm convinced she'd get them for a sprained ankle. And then after she gets them, half an hour after the first dose she'll be like "Oh yes, _____ feeling much better now, see the antibiotics must have helped" ... when that's not even how they work! It's literally impossible that it's the antibiotics... the capsule probably hasn't even digested yet!

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My wife has a friend who drives us nuts, she gets her daughters antibiotics for EVERY little thing. I'm convinced she'd get them for a sprained ankle. And then after she gets them, half an hour after the first dose she'll be like "Oh yes, _____ feeling much better now, see the antibiotics must have helped" ... when that's not even how they work! It's literally impossible that it's the antibiotics... the capsule probably hasn't even digested yet!

Placebo.
Give them a smartie and tell them it will make them feel better.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My wife has a friend who drives us nuts, she gets her daughters antibiotics for EVERY little thing. I'm convinced she'd get them for a sprained ankle. And then after she gets them, half an hour after the first dose she'll be like "Oh yes, _____ feeling much better now, see the antibiotics must have helped" ... when that's not even how they work! It's literally impossible that it's the antibiotics... the capsule probably hasn't even digested yet!

The Doctors need to be tougher with people and not hand them out like that imo, it's ridiculous

[Vicky.]

I don't understand why they do give them out. Just tell people they will not be effective and thats that. Why give them for stuff they won't even help?

Mind I have to say, maybe after 2 or 3 antibiotic tablets, I can feel a noticeable difference when I have them for tonsilitus. Not on the first one, but they seem to work extremely quickly.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My wife has a friend who drives us nuts, she gets her daughters antibiotics for EVERY little thing. I'm convinced she'd get them for a sprained ankle. And then after she gets them, half an hour after the first dose she'll be like "Oh yes, _____ feeling much better now, see the antibiotics must have helped" ... when that's not even how they work! It's literally impossible that it's the antibiotics... the capsule probably hasn't even digested yet!

That's not a good idea, because we will build immunity the more they are used. To abuse them like that, she is doing more harm than good.

My doctors like to give me antibiotics for the flu, just in case it's bacterial even when they already know what is going around is viral. So I usually don't fill it.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't understand why they do give them out. Just tell people they will not be effective and thats that. Why give them for stuff they won't even help?

Mind I have to say, maybe after 2 or 3 antibiotic tablets, I can feel a noticeable difference when I have them for tonsilitus. Not on the first one, but they seem to work extremely quickly.

and it's not just that they won't help, the more often you take them, the less effective they become when you genuinely need them, that's the problem

[LeatherTrumpet]

being allergic to penicillin has meant that I rarely get colds and the like probably due to having never really had many antibiotics

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Maru

That's not a good idea, because we will build immunity the more they are used. To abuse them like that, she is doing more harm than good.

Yeah... we've given up on trying to tell her this .