[thesheriff443]

The bible is a story book before television, some went of and chose cats as gods.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Greg!

Mary was a cheating slag who lied about God making her preggers so that Joseph wouldn't dump ha. Jesus was just a man.

As was every other perceived god ever. The more religious people are and the more they allow it dictate their lives- the more gullible they are and the less successful their economies - it holds people back.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

The bible is a story book before television, some went of and chose cats as gods.

As is the Koran and look at the trouble that is still causing in this day and age!

[Toy Soldier]

Me and my daughter came up with a theory on this earlier.

We were wondering, WHY would there be critically ill / crippled humans in the world of Harry Potter, if wizards could easily just go around hospitals helping? At the very least - we mused - they'd be able to heal something like a broken spine / paralysis no problem. Why would they let so many suffer? Surely at least one would say "screw the secret!" and help?

And then it hit us.

Jesus was a wizard. Thousands of years ago, he was the one who broke ranks and wanted to help humans. But then not only did they crucify him for it - but a huge cult built up around him, worshipping him, and thousand of years later billions of muggles STILL worship him, and there have been countless wars fought in his name with untold devastation.

And that is why wizards made a sacred pact to never meddle in the Muggle world. That's why no wizard will cure a dying human child, even though they could. The price was just too high .

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Me and my daughter came up with a theory on this earlier.

We were wondering, WHY would there be critically ill / crippled humans in the world of Harry Potter, if wizards could easily just go around hospitals helping? At the very least - we mused - they'd be able to heal something like a broken spine / paralysis no problem. Why would they let so many suffer? Surely at least one would say "screw the secret!" and help?

And then it hit us.

Jesus was a wizard. Thousands of years ago, he was the one who broke ranks and wanted to help humans. But then not only did they crucify him for it - but a huge cult built up around him, worshipping him, and thousand of years later billions of muggles STILL worship him, and there have been countless wars fought in his name with untold devastation.

And that is why wizards made a sacred pact to never meddle in the Muggle world. That's why no wizard will cure a dying human child, even though they could. The price was just too high .

Good theory

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

As is the Koran and look at the trouble that is still causing in this day and age!

Anyone who abuses religion with their own twisted ideas will always cause trouble , it's the people that are the problem not the religion itself

I also think it's disrespectful when people rip Religion to pieces and mock it ,fair enough everyone has different views and a laugh and a giggle is one thing . But it's not nice to be rude about others beliefs even if you don't understand it .

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Anyone who abuses religion with their own twisted ideas will always cause trouble , it's the people that are the problem not the religion itself

I also think it's disrespectful when people rip Religion to pieces and mock it ,fair enough everyone has different views and a laugh and a giggle is one thing . But it's not nice to be rude about others beliefs even if you don't understand it .

Have you read the comments about Jesus and Christianity and you pass no comments but as soon as there is a negative comment on the Koran you object - rather one-dided don’t you think! You can’t object to criticism of one religion and not the rest and expect it to be relevant.

Fact is one particular religion is causing more problems in the world today than any other! It may be some people’s interpretation of the words to suit in some cases but in others the words speak for themselves.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Anyone who abuses religion with their own twisted ideas will always cause trouble , it's the people that are the problem not the religion itself

I also think it's disrespectful when people rip Religion to pieces and mock it ,fair enough everyone has different views and a laugh and a giggle is one thing . But it's not nice to be rude about others beliefs even if you don't understand it .

"fair enough everyone has different views"

this is a problematic line

Its not up for debate that gods exist and people can walk on water and heal sick people by mind power

People believe stuff like that because their parents brainwashed them as they were brainwashed. Its not based on evidence or fact its nothing more than superstition

just as people dont walk under ladders, dont break mirrors, dont put shoes on a table, touch wood etc

and indeed all of that is fine if its personal but not in schools, not in government.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"fair enough everyone has different views"

this is a problematic line

Its not up for debate that gods exist and people can walk on water and heal sick people by mind power

People believe stuff like that because their parents brainwashed them as they were brainwashed. Its not based on evidence or fact its nothing more than superstition

just as people dont walk under ladders, dont break mirrors, dont put shoes on a table, touch wood etc

and indeed all of that is fine if its personal but not in schools, not in government.

I agree LT. People can believe in what they want but it should never be via indoctrination or force. Unfortunately it often is. Religion and superstition are pretty much the same thing with people relying on some unknown force to protect them if they do/don’t do certain things. And one thing is for sure it holds back people and economies.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

As is the Koran and look at the trouble that is still causing in this day and age!

It's easy for the West to feel superior, but we shouldn't really.
Islam is roughly 500 years younger than Christianity. Christianity went persecuting and killing others for ages (Inquisition, crusades, converting whole nations by sword in Eastern Europe, Africa and in the New World, etc etc).
We grew out of that and religious wars and so will Islam one day.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

It's easy for the West to feel superior, but we shouldn't really.
Islam is roughly 500 years younger than Christianity. Christianity went persecuting and killing others for ages (Inquisition, crusades, converting whole nations by sword in Eastern Europe, Africa and in the New World, etc etc).
We grew out of that and religious wars and so will Islam one day.

Which fool taught you that?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

It's easy for the West to feel superior, but we shouldn't really.
Islam is roughly 500 years younger than Christianity. Christianity went persecuting and killing others for ages (Inquisition, crusades, converting whole nations by sword in Eastern Europe, Africa and in the New World, etc etc).
We grew out of that and religious wars and so will Islam one day.

That may be twosugars but the world in general has moved on. People are more educated than ever before and certain practices can’t be tolerated for the next 500 years to allow people to ‘catch up’. People know better now and anyone living in the West or any country that has communication with the rest of the world is exposed to that.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

That may be twosugars but the world in general has moved on. People are more educated than ever before and certain practices can’t be tolerated for the next 500 years to allow people to ‘catch up’. People know better now and anyone living in the West or any country that has communication with the rest of the world is exposed to that.

You have a point. But I wonder if that makes much difference. As we see it probably doesn't, so something else could be at play. Maybe some religions (those who take a dim view of non-believers in at least some of their scriptures) have to go through a violent period? We know demagogues will use religious justification wherever then can find it. Christianity has largely gone through that already, although some pockets of that intolerance still remain even if largely not violent. Maybe Islam simply has to go through that all the way too. I.e every interpretation that lends itself to violence used up and rendered futile? Just a thought.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Alf

Which fool taught you that?

Nobody, it's my own observation. So thank you for the compliment, Alf!

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

You have a point. But I wonder if that makes much difference. As we see it probably doesn't, so something else could be at play. Maybe some religions (those who take a dim view of non-believers in at least some of their scriptures) have to go through a violent period? We know demagogues will use religious justification wherever then can find it. Christianity has largely gone through that already, although some pockets of that intolerance still remain even if largely not violent. Maybe Islam simply has to go through that all the way too. I.e every interpretation that lends itself to violence used up and rendered futile? Just a thought.

A scary thought and one we can’t just justify/excuse/tolerate on that basis - or any basis. Enough lives have already been lost/ruined through the centuries and now is the time to stop especially when based on religion alone.

[Toy Soldier]

The main problem I have with religion is the expectation that we should all "play along". I mean if someone is saying... Just be polite / respectful and say nothing at all, that's totally fine in most situations. During the course of open debate, however, what I simply cannot do is sit there pretending that religious belief is in ANY way based in logic, reason or evidence. I can't pretend that it's actually feasible that one of these hundreds of religions - which, yes, ALL are cults that rely entirely on indoctrination and emotional manipulation - has actually stumbled upon universal truth through sheer coincidence. No. The chances that any religion is "correct" or even anywhere in the ballpark of being correct are so infinitesimally small that they are effectively zero.

Anyone who finds that "offensive", should steer well clear of religious debate, and stick with those who will happily coddle or reinforce fanciful beliefs on the basis that "it's OK if it keeps people happy".

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

A scary thought and one we can’t just justify/excuse/tolerate on that basis - or any basis. Enough lives have already been lost/ruined through the centuries and now is the time to stop especially when based on religion alone.

Absolutely.
The trouble with Islam though, seems to me, is not purely religious. The West has played a rather negative role in that region. Starting all the way back with colonisation and drawing arbitrary borders through constant meddling, propping up unpopular leaders and economic exploitation. So you have various "patriotic" justifications weaved into religious arguments for fighting the West.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Absolutely.
The trouble with Islam though, seems to me, is not purely religious. The West has played a rather negative role in that region. Starting all the way back with colonisation and drawing arbitrary borders through constant meddling, propping up unpopular leaders and economic exploitation. So you have various "patriotic" justifications weaved into religious arguments for fighting the West.

When people shout words such as Allahu Akbar when committing mass murder they make it about religion. When they post videos on line making threats to the West based on Islam they make it about religion. When Western countries start to want to protect themselves by protecting their borders they can’t then complain. Such actions have consequences.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

When people shout words such as Allahu Akbar when committing mass murder they make it about religion. When they post videos on line making threats to the West based on Islam they make it about religion. When Western countries start to want to protect themselves by protecting their borders they can’t then complain. Such actions have consequences.

To be fair though it's mostly the other way round. The political motivations came first, Islam was then used to "weaponise" fanatics to use as an army, because that sort of hardcore belief is the easiest way to create a committed fighting force.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

When people shout words such as Allahu Akbar when committing mass murder they make it about religion. When they post videos on line making threats to the West based on Islam they make it about religion. When Western countries start to want to protect themselves by protecting their borders they can’t then complain. Such actions have consequences.

I have no doubt their main justification is religious, but politics play a role too, especially in recruitment. They play on grievances against the west, they call us crusaders etc
I'm not saying the west shouldn't defend themselves. But can't help thinking we helped to create that mess. Look at mass migration. Europe existed for decades alongside a poorer Africa and Middle East. There was no problem with mass migration until we destabilised the status quo in response to Osama. More terror groups emerged and people started moving, fleeing all over the place.
From the terrorists point of view, I'd imagine such chaos is perfect. It helps to foster conflict at home and it helps to smuggle their people into the West.
It is what it is. I have no problem with Europe closing borders. Such mass migration is not good for anybody, even those fleeing.
In the long run it may be cheaper and better for Europe to throw funds and resources to set up refugee camps in the region rather than accept them at home.
But we moving off-topic...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To be fair though it's mostly the other way round. The political motivations came first, Islam was then used to "weaponise" fanatics to use as an army, because that sort of hardcore belief is the easiest way to create a committed fighting force.

For many the motivations, religious or political, don’t really change anything as they are so closely intertwined. The outcome and risk is still the same hence the response.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To be fair though it's mostly the other way round. The political motivations came first, Islam was then used to "weaponise" fanatics to use as an army, because that sort of hardcore belief is the easiest way to create a committed fighting force.

But they're so intermingled. Doesn't Koran call for a creation of a caliphate, like Isis tried to do?

[chuff me dizzy]

A fairy story for people who need a crutch in life and a lot of people have made big money from their gullibility

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

But they're so intermingled. Doesn't Koran call for a creation of a caliphate, like Isis tried to do?

Yes but that's why it's been ripe for manipulation. Religious texts are all full of rhetoric that's easy to frame in the context of War.

The tidal political forces in the middle east have frequently been western, right back to the middle ages, with Islam being used as a tool in that (just as Christianity has been used in the west, many times).

Whether or not there's still anyone at the wheel is another debate. ISIS was basically the result of deliberately created militant Islamic groups, funded, armed and promoted by the West and Russia throughout the 20th century. They then were "cut loose" and reformed as something different that DOES have religious motivation. But it's not a group that formed naturally.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes but that's why it's been ripe for manipulation. Religious texts are all full of rhetoric that's easy to frame in the context of War.

The tidal political forces in the middle east have frequently been western, right back to the middle ages, with Islam being used as a tool in that (just as Christianity has been used in the west, many times).

Whether or not there's still anyone at the wheel is another debate. ISIS was basically the result of deliberately created militant Islamic groups, funded, armed and promoted by the West and Russia throughout the 20th century. They then were "cut loose" and reformed as something different that DOES have religious motivation. But it's not a group that formed naturally.

ISIS was even a disgrace for the islam tbh, because it is stated in the Koran that terrorism is against their religion

what they did was paint all muslims as evil, and cause lots of destruction and terror throughout the world