[Morgan.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I am fairly sure that 16-18 year olds have no choice but to be in education these days? Thats what stepson says anyway as he was planning on getting an appreticeship after school but apparently he hasto pick between college and sixth form as they can't leave at 16 now.

I left at 16 and went straight into work. Only got paid 2.50 an hour mind but was totally loaded compared to friends who chose to stay in education, who were living on 30 quid a week (and only if their parents were not well off..if your parents had cash you didn't get the 30 a week).

Because of my experience, I don't think I agree with them having to stay in education til 18, that would have depressed me and it turned out that working straight from school was by far the best thing for me, that kids today don't have that option seems a bit unfair. Mind, I guess the jobs aren't really there for them to do straight from school these days..back then, you could literally walk out of a job into the next one. So again ,much more choice and employers couldn't get away with treating you like **** as you could just walk right out...as I did once. Walked out of a job at around 6pm, and had another by 7 and started that night

That’s odd, when I left school it was between college, sixth form and apprenticeship because the latter did count as education. Unless they changed it since?

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I am fairly sure that 16-18 year olds have no choice but to be in education these days?

At the moment, yes. But obviously if additional things were in place, this would be adjusted.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Blurryface

It already is. Not going to further education isn’t an option now. It’s college, sixth form or apprenticeship for 2 years regardless.

Stepson says hes not allowed to do the appreticeship that he wants, as been told he has to do 'normal' education instead. I wonder if part of the problem is that the apprenticeship he wants to do..has a half decent wage. Its something like 6 quid an hour, which would be classed as too good for a 16 year old..which again is utterly crap. Saying that they have to work for pennies, when proper wages are available.

Meanwhile, ****ing subway refuse to pay their staff properly and instead all their positions are 'apprenticeships' so they can get away with paying next to nothing. Apprenticeship in sandwich making man..give me strength..

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Oh C'mon where does it say there the young have to die ? lets be sensible here, and i am sure lots of older people love youngsters, infact some of us have some, I think that the 'young' description is just because NS was aimed at the young, but no where did anyone say youngsters should die,that's just silly.

My Mam used to say "They go in a boy and come out a man " This can only do good IMO

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Education isn't for everyone. Something should be in place for 16-18 year olds who need some purpose in their lives. But instead of National Service in the military, maybe something like Rory Stewart suggested, working on community projects etc.

In my eyes, what Rory has put on the table is just yet another way for businesses getting out of having to fork out another wage, why do that when they can just get a youngster in to do it for free?

[Twosugars]

I'd make old bigots volunteer at asylum seekers detention centres

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Oh C'mon where does it say there the young have to die ? lets be sensible here, and i am sure lots of older people love youngsters, infact some of us have some, I think that the 'young' description is just because NS was aimed at the young, but no where did anyone say youngsters should die,that's just silly.

Force someone into war, there’s a very high chance that they’ll die, therefore young people would be forced into a situation where they’re very likely to die, that’s it

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Blurryface

That’s odd, when I left school it was between college, sixth form and apprenticeship because the latter did count as education. Unless they changed it since?

My grandson has been told if he gets an apprenticeship he can leave at 16

[Morgan.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Did you know - college, sixth form, and apprenticeships have educational aspects to them?

These don't suit everyone, and despite doing a stirling course in fine art, some people still find it difficult to get a start in adult life.

Sorry, I misread your comment. I thought you were saying that there was nothing in place at all for 16-18 year olds.

But tbh, I think people would find it harder getting a start in adult life at 16 with just GCSE’s, than at 18+ with A Levels and Degrees. Everywhere you look are desperate for people with further education - they’re not bothered what in but having those higher qualifications shows them you have what it takes to work in adult environments.

And besides - there’s lots of different options. I don’t do well with exams or studying, so sixth form wasn’t for me and I picked a vocational course at college where there’s 40% theory work and 60% practical. Now I’m looking at my next steps, I decided against uni because I don’t like that environment but I’m looking between an apprenticeship and a HND - both more relaxed environment.

So I find it hard to believe this system is forcing people to do something when there’s so many different options.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

In my eyes, what Rory has put on the table is just yet another way for businesses getting out of having to fork out another wage, why do that when they can just get a youngster in to do it for free?

Thats all it ever is. Excuses to not pay properly, and not give proper workers rights.

Similar to 'workfare' schemes. Where, if these pisstaking employers just paid the staff as they should, then the person who is made to work for free, would be off the dole and have a decent bloody wage. But no, lets punish those who are out of work by giving employers a chance to get free workers, meanwhile the person with no job still has no job or wage, but is working 40 hours per week, and still being referred to as lazy scum because they have to claim JSA to survive, while doing a fulltime job. Ugh. This topic makes me rage so much, its vile, yet people support it because 'lazy scroungers'..meanwhile the lazy scroungers are doing more actual work than those calling them lazy scroungers.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

In my eyes, what Rory has put on the table is just yet another way for businesses getting out of having to fork out another wage, why do that when they can just get a youngster in to do it for free?

He wasn't talking about young people stacking shelves in Tesco, it was community projects. That's the sort of thing which councils usually do rather than businesses.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Thats all it ever is. Excuses to not pay properly, and not give proper workers rights.

Similar to 'workfare' schemes. Where, if these pisstaking employers just paid the staff as they should, then the person who is made to work for free, would be off the dole and have a decent bloody wage. But no, lets punish those who are out of work by giving employers a chance to get free workers, meanwhile the person with no job still has no job or wage, but is working 40 hours per week, and still being referred to as lazy scum because they have to claim JSA to survive, while doing a fulltime job. Ugh. This topic makes me rage so much, its vile, yet people support it because 'lazy scroungers'..meanwhile the lazy scroungers are doing more actual work than those calling them lazy scroungers.

Pretty much

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

He wasn't talking about young people stacking shelves in Tesco, it was community projects. That's the sort of thing which councils usually do rather than businesses.

Community projects like what, litter picking, communal gardening, looking after old folk? All things that people could and should be paid to do, it’s just another way to vilify the young and get away with free labour

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Force someone into war, there’s a very high chance that they’ll die, therefore young people would be forced into a situation where they’re very likely to die, that’s it

But, the bootcamp kinda thing I was talking about was not about sending anyone to war, I think thugs and criminal offenders would benefit from learning some manners and respect and how to behave and maybe learn a trade and work hard would be more beneficial that letting them roam feral or putting them in prison

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Force someone into war, there’s a very high chance that they’ll die, therefore young people would be forced into a situation where they’re very likely to die, that’s it

I agree 100%

[Morgan.]

At college we are currently being encouraged to do ‘industry placements’.

We would basically go to a company for a week, complete work they need doing, and all for free. Now this in itself is a bad idea, as all we gain from it is a little experience. But in the field I’m in, filmmaking, it’s a tough job making an entire film or advert solo, and for free. There’s the casting, planning, filming, editing, sound production, rendering etc - and to do that alone for no money is just something I’d rather not do. Especially when we are so used to working in groups where everyone can focus on their strong suit.

When we are giving them a skill, talent, whatever you call it, it’s the kind of thing I expect to be paid for. Yes I’m just starting out, so I’m not asking for much as it’s not the same quality as an industry professional, but it’s passable work and not something that in the industry would be given as a freebie.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

But, the bootcamp kinda thing I was talking about was not about sending anyone to war, I think thugs and criminal offenders would benefit from learning some manners and respect and how to behave and maybe learn a trade and work hard would be more beneficial that letting them roam feral or putting them in prison

That works in theory. However realistically, thugs and criminals are not really going to learn anything, regardless of how many bootcamp type things you put them through.

Also, I have no issue at all with people thinkng of ways to sort out criminals and that. Its when its just applied to 'the young' in general and its made out that 'the young' are all lazy ****ers who would benefit from being put on the frontline or something because some of them are lazy (just like older people..oddly enough. Lazy people will always exist in all sections of society) that it kind of gets my back up.

I mean, am not even part of 'the young' now, but I still feel defensive when older people just demonize them constantly. Especially given how much bloody harder it is for younger people these days compared to like..30-40 years back when those complaining about the young were young themselves. Back when you could buy a house with a years wage, and there were numerous jobs available. Its so much worse for the young' these days. Obviously not compared to..like war times, before someone tries being clever. But things today compared to when boomers were starting out...

I mean, as an example theres 'I had bought a house and had a job when I was 20' people..because those today struggle to get on the ladder, this mean they are lazy. No, its damn near impossible to buy a house when young today, unless your family has money, and if your family buys it for you, its not you earning it is it..

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

But, the bootcamp kinda thing I was talking about was not about sending anyone to war, I think thugs and criminal offenders would benefit from learning some manners and respect and how to behave and maybe learn a trade and work hard would be more beneficial that letting them roam feral or putting them in prison

But with respect, that wasn’t the topic at hand, the question that was posed about specifically about national service, a scheme that specifically targeted young people just because they were born after a certain time, whether they’ve broke the law or not

[Liam-]

In my experience old people are the worst; rude, entitled, ignorant, what about those sorts of people, who just sit and knit all day? Should something be done about them?

[Morgan.]

Originally Posted by Blurryface

At college we are currently being encouraged to do ‘industry placements’.

We would basically go to a company for a week, complete work they need doing, and all for free. Now this in itself is a bad idea, as all we gain from it is a little experience. But in the field I’m in, filmmaking, it’s a tough job making an entire film or advert solo, and for free. There’s the casting, planning, filming, editing, sound production, rendering etc - and to do that alone for no money is just something I’d rather not do. Especially when we are so used to working in groups where everyone can focus on their strong suit.

When we are giving them a skill, talent, whatever you call it, it’s the kind of thing I expect to be paid for. Yes I’m just starting out, so I’m not asking for much as it’s not the same quality as an industry professional, but it’s passable work and not something that in the industry would be given as a freebie.

My first, and only, industry placement was for a local musician who wanted a music video but wouldn’t give me any direction. I made one. He didn’t like it. He didn’t use it. I re aimed unpaid, for what frankly was a waste of my time.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Liam-

In my experience old people are the worst; rude, entitled, ignorant, what about those sorts of people, who just sit and knit all day? Should something be done about them?

you do realise that your words are 100% discriminatory

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

you do realise that your words are 100% discriminatory

No more discriminatory than saying young people are lazy, lowlife scrowngers that sit and play Xbox all day

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Blurryface

At college we are currently being encouraged to do ‘industry placements’.

We would basically go to a company for a week, complete work they need doing, and all for free. Now this in itself is a bad idea, as all we gain from it is a little experience. But in the field I’m in, filmmaking, it’s a tough job making an entire film or advert solo, and for free. There’s the casting, planning, filming, editing, sound production, rendering etc - and to do that alone for no money is just something I’d rather not do. Especially when we are so used to working in groups where everyone can focus on their strong suit.

When we are giving them a skill, talent, whatever you call it, it’s the kind of thing I expect to be paid for. Yes I’m just starting out, so I’m not asking for much as it’s not the same quality as an industry professional, but it’s passable work and not something that in the industry would be given as a freebie.

Yup, you are working, even though you are learning, and should be paid for it.

Its odd, when people think stuff lie this is ok because 'lazy young', should work for free, but then complain that they have to claim JSA or whatever to survive on. Like, you cannot logically agree with both forcing people to work for free, but also complain that they have no income.

I think even learning on the job stuff should be paid. I think workfare and the likes should be done away with and employers should be made to pay proper wages when people work for them, rather than picking from an endless pool of unfortunate people who have to do all the bad sides of working without the one upside, which is a wage and cash to do what you want. I also think employers such as subway, should be made to pay properly rather than using 'apprenticeship' as a way to pay half, or less. Its horrible and exploitative and absolutely should not be encouraged or allowed.

[Rob!]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

My Mam used to say "They go in a boy and come out a man " This can only do good IMO

And you consider a “man” to be what exactly? Someone who’s prepared to put themselves in front of a fired gun?

[LukeB]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

you do realise that your words are 100% discriminatory

Pretty much and it’s gross but you should pull up others for doing it too about the younger generation. Young and old are as bad as each other.