[Toy Soldier]

This also serves as a prime example of why that "punish the accuser when there's proof" thread is utterly wrong headed because I'm getting the impression that plenty of people on this thread believe that there is "proof" that this girl wasn't assaulted in any way and would gleefully see her charged with a crime, when there clearly just ****ing isn't proof of that at all.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This also serves as a prime example of why that "punish the accuser when there's proof" thread is utterly wrong headed because I'm getting the impression that plenty of people on this thread believe that there is "proof" that this girl wasn't assaulted in any way and would gleefully see her charged with a crime, when there clearly just ****ing isn't proof of that at all.

if you think about it TS does the story sound plausible to you when you read it?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

if you think about it TS does the story sound plausible to you when you read it?

Neither version sounds entirely accurate and that's why it being taken as "proof she was lying and they're totally innocent" is ludicrous and terrifying.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I mean, from what I've read about it, the suggestion has been that she did it as "revenge" for a group of them (possibly not all 12) having sex with her consensually, but several of them filming it on their phones without consent and then refusing to delete it.

So whilst accusing them of rape is obviously a MASSIVELY over the top and immature reaction ... I would say that Nicky's assessment of "vile boys" is still quite accurate. No?

And TBQFH I'm very skeptical about how "consensual" a gangbang between one probably drunk 19 year old girl and multiple boys being filmed on smartphones is likely to have been, and strongly suspect she may have withdrawn her statement due to being grilled about it in an unpleasant manner and just wanting to get the hell out of there. If her statement was obviously a bit mis-remembered and confused (as it obviously would be) and then one of the boys proved he wasn't there, because perhaps that one did leave the group earlier without her realising, it makes her entire statement fall apart, the police start aggressively quizzing her for "lying", and she just wants to go home.

But nah obviously an unquestionably brazen liar, string the lying slut up amirite? #Feminism.

Yeah, tend to agree with this really. And I don't know if it is illegal or not (I thought it was) but isn't filming someone having sex without their consent illegal? It really should be if it isn't

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

if you think about it TS does the story sound plausible to you when you read it?

Yes... it does if she was assaulted by 3 of a Party of 12 then all 12 would have to be arrested to sample their DNA to match with the sample recovered from the accuser?

[LeatherTrumpet]

this is the problem with threads about accusations. I did highlight this time and again in the SMollet case (regarding the inaccurate thread title that led to needless debate, only to be shot down and I think infracted, I cant recall

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

this is the problem with threads about accusations. I did highlight this time and again in the SMollet case (regarding the inaccurate thread title that led to needless debate, only to be shot down and I think infracted, I cant recall

What would be an accurate title?

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

What would be an accurate title?

i wasnt referring to this title in that post but the proper title should have been:

Twelve Israelis held in Cyprus over alleged gang rape of British tourist

[bitontheslide]

Everyone knows what Ayia Napa is like. Its the place where young people go to get legless drunk and have sex. So it's a seedy place basically. I wouldnt trust any of the accounts because the likelihood was they were completely out the game

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Everyone knows what Ayia Napa is like. Its the place where young people go to get legless drunk and have sex. So it's a seedy place basically. I wouldnt trust any of the accounts because the likelihood was they were completely out the game

So if anyone goes on a party holiday and is sexually assaulted, they shouldn't just keep it to themselves because "debauchery" is to be expected and no one will believe them.

That does sound about right for what has happened here, yes.

[Cherie]

Horrible story from start to finish

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So if anyone goes on a party holiday and is sexually assaulted, they shouldn't just keep it to themselves because "debauchery" is to be expected and no one will believe them.

That does sound about right for what has happened here, yes.

i think people make a conscious decision to go on that type of holiday. Of course everyone retains the right to say no, but in that type of environment it's a lot less clear cut for obvious reasons

[Niamh.]

I actually listened to a guy speak about that NI case afterwards actually who made some very good points about consent and group sex involving one girl in particular (as this is usually where consent becomes the issue) He said, people don't normally have group sex, it's an unusual occurrence and something that most people won't ever do in their lives so the rule of thumb should be that unless you discussed it while sober with the girl and really knew she was comfortable with the idea then it should never happen. I really agree with that

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i think people make a conscious decision to go on that type of holiday. Of course everyone retains the right to say no, but in that type of environment it's a lot less clear cut for obvious reasons

"Asking For It", then?

[Niamh.]

Deleted some posts in here. Back ontopic please

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Wouldn't have occurred to me TS. It just looked like the usual kind of stuff you might write.

Direct jibe at me, eh? And you feel perfectly entitled to do that.

This forum is ****ing imploding.

He has a point to be fair, you were very pro feminist on that thread, but in this one, not a glimmer... :/

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I actually listened to a guy speak about that NI case afterwards actually who made some very good points about consent and group sex involving one girl in particular (as this is usually where consent becomes the issue) He said, people don't normally have group sex, it's an unusual occurrence and something that most people won't ever do in their lives so the rule of thumb should be that unless you discussed it while sober with the girl and really knew she was comfortable with the idea then it should never happen. I really agree with that

I agree especially when it's heavily "one sided" in nature. Threesomes (MMF or FFM) aren't THAT uncommon and even "orgies" with a mixture of men and women are different, but anyone trying to claim that a sexual encounter on a drunken night out between one girl and several men is likely to be legitimately and fully consensual...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Deleted some posts in here. Back ontopic please

Oop sorry posts crossed there

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

"Asking For It", then.

Sorry TS, but you are too often putting words in peoples mouths for them these days, that's not what i said at all, so stop it ok?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Sorry TS, but you are too often putting words in peoples mouths for them these days, that's not what i said at all, so stop it ok?

Sorry, I've edited my punctuation for clarity.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i think people make a conscious decision to go on that type of holiday. Of course everyone retains the right to say no, but in that type of environment it's a lot less clear cut for obvious reasons

No I don't agree with this you could apply this logic to many scenarios .. rowdy frat parties, seedy nightclubs, there is no environment where it should be considered less clear cut.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I agree especially when it's heavily "one sided" in nature. Threesomes (MMF or FFM) aren't THAT uncommon and even "orgies" with a mixture of men and women are different, but anyone trying to claim that a sexual encounter on a drunken night out between one girl and several men is likely to be legitimately and fully consensual...

Yeah, like any of the ones that you hear about are usually drunk girl gets with one guy and all of a sudden his friends are "having a go" it seems opportunistic and never really appears fully consensual

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah, like any of the ones that you hear about are usually drunk girl gets with one guy and all of a sudden his friends are "having a go" it seems opportunistic and never really appears fully consensual

Well that's irrelevant now isn't it? The general consensus is now this girl lied and needs to go to jail..

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah, like any of the ones that you hear about are usually drunk girl gets with one guy and all of a sudden his friends are "having a go" it seems opportunistic and never really appears fully consensual

And that's what happened in this case?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

And that's what happened in this case?

It seems to be