[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Its Boris who has just restored the bursary after it was removed by Osborne

Originally Posted by Cherie

The bursary is back for NHS England anyway

Partially, it's less than it was before.

Its also HALF of the Scottish bursary.

It would barely cover student accommodation and because of placements, it's very hard for student nurses to have a part time job... For people who aren't being supported by a partner or parents it's basically impossible. It's a joke.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It was actually scrapped under Cameron (and the real force behind it was Osborne). Seems like a lifetime ago.

It was partly restored but at a lesser level.

They have advertised a 5,000 bursary stating in Sept for a range of posts for a few months, Radiographers, OTs, Physios, nurses

Nursing should never have become a degree based profession, thats where the issues started

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

They have advertised a 5,000 bursary stating in Sept for a range of posts for a few months, Radiographers, OTs, Physios, nurses

Like I said, less than it was before it was scrapped, and the nursing bursary in Scotland is £10k.

Nursing students can't live on £5000 without additional support from a spouse or family. It's that simple. They'll never recruit enough new nurses unless they make it viable.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Like I said, less than it was before it was scrapped, and the nursing bursary in Scotland is £10k.

Nursing students can't live on £5000 without additional support from a spouse or family. It's that simple. They'll never recruit enough new nurses unless they make it viable.

And neither can most university students

Nursing should never have become a degree based profession, thats where the issues started

Scottish nursing vacancies have risen by nearly a third in three months, prompting the Royal College of Nursing (RCN) to issue fresh calls for action in order to tackle the shortage. ... In the community, there was a 21% rise in nursing vacancies from 783 in March to 893 in June.6 Sep 2019

so the bursary and free tuition isn’t attractive it seems

[Tom4784]

**** no, He'll ride the wave of gammon appreciation and he and the rest of the Tories will swiftly forget about the NHS as soon as this is over. The Tories do not care about the NHS, they want the pharmaceutical money that pollutes US politics.

Remember that Boris was happy to sacrifice people in the hopes that the survivors would develop herd immunity, the man's callous as ****.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

**** no, He'll ride the wave of gammon appreciation and he and the rest of the Tories will swiftly forget about the NHS as soon as this is over. The Tories do not care about the NHS, they want the pharmaceutical money that pollutes US politics.

Remember that Boris was happy to sacrifice people in the hopes that the survivors would develop herd immunity, the man's callous as ****.

No that was his Scientific adviser

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

And neither can most university students

Nursing should never have become a degree based profession, thats where the issues started

Scottish nursing vacancies have risen by nearly a third in three months, prompting the Royal College of Nursing (RCN) to issue fresh calls for action in order to tackle the shortage. ... In the community, there was a 21% rise in nursing vacancies from 783 in March to 893 in June.6 Sep 2019

so the bursary and free tuition isn’t attractive it seems

Most university students don't have to go on 40hr/week unpaid placement and can have a part-time job.

I disagree fundamentally about it "not being a degree based profession" - there is ample evidence that well educated nurses = less mortality across the board. Nurses are and should remain trained medical professionals, they're not levelled-up healthcare assistants.

Also the reason for rising vacancies is poor pay and poor working conditions meaning that new people aren't attracted to the profession, as well as a significant number of experienced nurses from the EU leaving the country thanks to good old Brexit.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by arista

No that was his Scientific adviser

And he decided to follow that advice until he relented from backlash because the rest of the world's experts were saying something different.

He followed that advice because it suited his needs. He chose to implement it before he took it back. He gladly made a decision that would have cost us thousands of more lives and he was glad to do it.

Never forget that, never try to twist that unto something else because it is what it is. He let his true face show at that point.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Most university students don't have to go on 40hr/week unpaid placement and can have a part-time job.

I disagree fundamentally about it "not being a degree based profession" - there is ample evidence that well educated nurses = less mortality across the board. Nurses are and should remain trained medical professionals, they're not levelled-up healthcare assistants.

Also the reason for rising vacancies is poor pay and poor working conditions meaning that new people aren't attracted to the profession, as well as a significant number of experienced nurses from the EU leaving the country thanks to good old Brexit.

NHS Digital report has revealed a number of interesting fact about the NHS workforce. Below is the breakdown of NHS Nurses Nationalities.

84% of nurses & health visitors in hospital and community health services (HCHS) are British.

7% (22,081) of nurses report an EU nationality other than British. Of these, 58% are either Irish, Spanish or Portuguese.

6% (16,727) of nurses report an Asian nationality. Of these, 90% are either Philippine or Indian.

There are 7,004 nurses with an African nationality.

The highest ‘Other’ nationality is Jamaican, with 469.

I think 3 years at university is off putting for many wanting to get into nursing, it’s a job that requires common sense and empathy plus a flair an desire to look after people which no amount of lectures can teach, my sister was a Theatre nurse, she qualified before the current need for a degree of course she still had to study, and she also studied throughout her career, so not going to uni doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be well educated. Pay does need to be addressed, I think NHS conditions are pretty good ie. holidays, pension, sick pay, support

[Withano]

No lol

[Babayaro.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

He’ll pretend to, but he’ll allow his cabinet to vote against him so he keeps the NHS down but doesn’t get the blame

.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I think 3 years at university is off putting for many wanting to get into nursing, it’s a job that requires common sense and empathy plus a flair an desire to look after people which no amount of lectures can teach, my sister was a Theatre nurse, she qualified before the current need for a degree of course she still has to study, and she also studied throughout her career, so not going to uni doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be well educated. Pay does need to be addressed, I think NHS conditions are pretty good ie. holidays, pension, sick pay, support

There is plentiful, significant, peer reviewed academic evidence that proves that a higher number of degree-educated nurses results in better health outcomes, including reduced mortality rates, across all areas of medicine. The research has been done, the numbers have been crunched... You not thinking its necessary really means absolutely nothing Cherie .

And when I talk about conditions I'm not talking about sick pay and holiday allowance - those are always decent in public sector employment.

I'm talking about how front line staff are viewed by management (and politicians), the toxic culture of professional bullying and mistreatment, the threats made against potential whistleblowers, the general disregard for the professional qualifications of the workforce...

But it seems like we can't even make it through one TiBB thread DURING the pandemic without flat denials that there's mistreatment of the workforce, so to answer the question of, "do we expect that things will be better post-Covid?"....... Lol, no. Everyone will go right back to ignoring the elephant.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There is plentiful, significant, peer reviewed academic evidence that proves that a higher number of degree-educated nurses results in better health outcomes, including reduced mortality rates, across all areas of medicine. The research has been done, the numbers have been crunched... You not thinking its necessary really means absolutely nothing Cherie .

And when I talk about conditions I'm not talking about sick pay and holiday allowance - those are always decent in public sector employment.

I'm talking about how front line staff are viewed by management (and politicians), the toxic culture of professional bullying and mistreatment, the threats made against potential whistleblowers, the general disregard for the professional qualifications of the workforce...

But it seems like we can't even make it through one TiBB thread DURING the pandemic without flat denials that there's mistreatment of the workforce, so to answer the question of, "do we expect that things will be better post-Covid?"....... Lol, no. Everyone will go right back to ignoring the elephant.

I don’t have first hand experience of this as I don’t work in the NHS, all those things happen in many big organisations including Westminster as far as we hear, not sure why your wife went into nursing so recently, its a mystery given all your comments above

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

one he said was from portugal, in the EU

Can you comment on the point then? Why does where they come from matter?
I don't understand the significance, is he attempting to say those nurses were somehow more diligent because they were from outside the UK?

We don't need convincing that all nurses are doing a fantastic job no matter the country of origin, that said as highlighted by TS the removal of the bursary showed that policy was recruitment from overseas, therefore it shouldn't have been a surprise that some of his carers were non UK residents.

What is changing is status, as low income workers post brexit becoming a permanent resident will be very hard, so a thankyou for working for the NHS will be a plane ticket home before you retire.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I don’t have first hand experience of this as I don’t work in the NHS, all those things happen in many big organisations including Westminster as far as we hear, not sure why your wife went into nursing so recently, its a mystery given all your comments above

Frankly I don't think she would go down the same route if she'd been aware of what it's like for nurses (and ESPECIALLY students, who are treated like dirt) beforehand.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Yes I am sure the leader of a main political party has no idea how valuable the NHS is

Just like when Blair/Brown and labour were astonished by how much the economy mattered when the financial crash happened. It had never occurred to them prior to this...

Looks like the sale to the USA big pharma is off

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What is changing is status, as low income workers post brexit becoming a permanent resident will be very hard, so a thankyou for working for the NHS will be a plane ticket home before you retire.

The really "strange" (suspicious) things is that the cut-off salary for what's considered "skilled" is right at the bottom of band 5... As soon as nurses are moving up the band, they suddenly pass the salary threshold into being accepted. It's so close to the exact figure that I honestly suspect its deliberate. Higher grade nurses are OK to stay, lower grades will be packed off home.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

NHS Digital report has revealed a number of interesting fact about the NHS workforce. Below is the breakdown of NHS Nurses Nationalities.

84% of nurses & health visitors in hospital and community health services (HCHS) are British.

7% (22,081) of nurses report an EU nationality other than British. Of these, 58% are either Irish, Spanish or Portuguese.

6% (16,727) of nurses report an Asian nationality. Of these, 90% are either Philippine or Indian.

There are 7,004 nurses with an African nationality.

The highest ‘Other’ nationality is Jamaican, with 469.

I think 3 years at university is off putting for many wanting to get into nursing, it’s a job that requires common sense and empathy plus a flair an desire to look after people which no amount of lectures can teach, my sister was a Theatre nurse, she qualified before the current need for a degree of course she still had to study, and she also studied throughout her career, so not going to uni doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be well educated. Pay does need to be addressed, I think NHS conditions are pretty good ie. holidays, pension, sick pay, support

Is there a source for this info? Policing too is degree based doing the degree while training would be better but prior is silly imo, my sister was the same only entered with an O level in art, she gained a masters and became a specialist nurse practitioner during her career.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Looks like the sale to the USA big pharma is off

I agree but mainly because I think it's going to take the US healthcare system years to recover itself after this, so the international pharma colonisation attempts will be on hold.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I agree but mainly because I think it's going to take the US healthcare system years to recover itself after this, so the international pharma colonisation attempts will be on hold.

I am still going to clap Pfizer and J and J on Wednesday night tho

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Is there a source for this info? Policing too is degree based doing the degree while training would be better but prior is silly imo, my sister was the same only entered with an O level in art, she gained a masters and became a specialist nurse practitioner during her career.

The thing is they do nearly 3000 hours of on the job training during the degree course, too.

Tbh they could solve the entire problem by paying trainee nurses min wage while they're on placement... God even apprenticeship wages would be something... They currently get ZIP and are treated more like free healthcare assistants than trainees sometimes. Total pot luck too, some mentors are amazing and teach their students loads on the job, some can't be arsed and send them off on menial tasks all day.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The really "strange" (suspicious) things is that the cut-off salary for what's considered "skilled" is right at the bottom of band 5... As soon as nurses are moving up the band, they suddenly pass the salary threshold into being accepted. It's so close to the exact figure that I honestly suspect its deliberate. Higher grade nurses are OK to stay, lower grades will be packed off home.

Yep and judging by these comments he's made that is set to continue...what a thankyou for saving lives

I was thinking this would have changed him, maybe I was wrong.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yep and judging by these comments he's made that is set to continue...what a thankyou for saving lives



I was thinking this would have changed him, maybe I was wrong.

He wouldn't even have to do a full U-turn, he could just say that the restrictions don't apply to people working in the NHS. I can't see it happening though.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

And he decided to follow that advice until he relented from backlash because the rest of the world's experts were saying something different.

He followed that advice because it suited his needs. He chose to implement it before he took it back. He gladly made a decision that would have cost us thousands of more lives and he was glad to do it.

Never forget that, never try to twist that unto something else because it is what it is. He let his true face show at that point.

Yes a Political Error.