[Cherie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Why doesn't he just not take any risks with their lives then and leave all the advice and help in place still now.

Not play games with people's lives.

Rather than put them at risk for a few weeks and possibly lose many more of their lives?

There was a significant number of shielding wanting some guidance as to when they could resume normal business, its not a one size fits all, people have to look at their own situation as people have been shielding for different reasons and risk assess themselves

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I agree and I also agree on some element of normality returning being essential - such as schools or at least socializing for children (child mental health services are seeing suicide attempts in kids as young as SIX at a massively increased rate... it's a complete disaster).

So no I don't think we can afford to go back to full lockdown. So that leaves the things that, in a sensible adult world, should be less of a problem.

Pubs and bars, do not need to be open.

Bookies do not need to be open.

Sit-in restaurants do not need to be open.

Holibobs in the sun do not need to be happening ffs.

Larger gatherings definitely should not recommence.

...non-essential adult leisure activities of all kinds can simply wait. Economy wise - yes - the government needs to support these industries to try to stop them from collapsing, but they just don't need to be open to the public yet.

Utter madness. "Oh well we'll just have to push it close to the line, because I need my trip to the pub... maybe we can close schools instead? Who cares if children are suffering unprecedented mental health problems, I need a nice cold pint and a jaunt to Faliraki."

there is also next to no evidence that asymptomatic people can transmit the virus. Certainly only in extreme cases. As kids appear to be asymptomatic in the overwhelming number of cases, there is no danger in them going to school. People have been promoting panic and doom and gloom with no justification

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

there is also next to no evidence that asymptomatic people can transmit the virus. Certainly only in extreme cases. As kids appear to be asymptomatic in the overwhelming number of cases, there is no danger in them going to school. People have been promoting panic and doom and gloom with no justification

children can transmit the virus onto those who the virus is deadly to though

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by MTVN

True but at least we have the data and the tools available now to identify local spikes and take action

We have ??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

children can transmit the virus onto those who the virus is deadly to though

Yeah that’s just dandy for us working in schools


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

there is also next to no evidence that asymptomatic people can transmit the virus. Certainly only in extreme cases. As kids appear to be asymptomatic in the overwhelming number of cases, there is no danger in them going to school. People have been promoting panic and doom and gloom with no justification

In theory it's not impossible, it's just that from everything we know it only transmits through droplets expelled through coughing and sneezing so (in theory) it's still possible from a cough or sneeze from an asymptomatic person, it's just that they wouldn't regularly be coughing or sneezing. But I guess if an asymptomatic kid had allergies or got a face full of chalk dust or something, they might sneeze for that reason, or have a coughing fit from a bit of juice going down the wrong way, or whatever... I think it's technically POSSIBLE to transmit it then. It should be pretty easy to mitigate with precautions, though.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Cherie

There was a significant number of shielding wanting some guidance as to when they could resume normal business, its not a one size fits all, people have to look at their own situation as people have been shielding for different reasons and risk assess themselves

What is that significant number?

I said, if you read it correctly, if those instructed to shield, wanted to take the risks then so be it.

I stated the government instruction to shield should stay in place.

For frankly, whatever your significant number may be, all in my own family and most elderly or sick, are very worried and confused.

There'll always be numbers not conforming to instructions, that doesn't mean the instructions are wrong.
I stated, the instruction to shield should stay in place.

Especially moreso now, since even this PM says he thinks a second wave is likely in 2 weeks.

Sorry I can't agree that one size fits all.
If you have vulnerably sick and elderly who are more likely to lose their lives if they get this.
All instructions should be to only protect them.
Yes, there'll be some who'll ignore that shielding instruction.

They and others too who haven't lost anyone to this, in the awful way it takes lives, again still hundreds a week.
Then not been able to even attend their funerals.
They may well think entirely differently if they do.

Especially from those in the Country who think hundreds of deaths a week are good news.
Unbelievable.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I agree and I also agree on some element of normality returning being essential - such as schools or at least socializing for children (child mental health services are seeing suicide attempts in kids as young as SIX at a massively increased rate... it's a complete disaster).

So no I don't think we can afford to go back to full lockdown. So that leaves the things that, in a sensible adult world, should be less of a problem.

Pubs and bars, do not need to be open.

Bookies do not need to be open.

Sit-in restaurants do not need to be open.

Holibobs in the sun do not need to be happening ffs.

Larger gatherings definitely should not recommence.

...non-essential adult leisure activities of all kinds can simply wait. Economy wise - yes - the government needs to support these industries to try to stop them from collapsing, but they just don't need to be open to the public yet.

Utter madness. "Oh well we'll just have to push it close to the line, because I need my trip to the pub... maybe we can close schools instead? Who cares if children are suffering unprecedented mental health problems, I need a nice cold pint and a jaunt to Faliraki."

I disagree with this, people had nothing to do for 3 months, it was becoming increasingly clear with the number of illegal raves/street parties that something had to give, I would rather they were opened in a measured way as they are now, not that I have been but it seems from what I have heard that social distancing is very much the norm and any issues that were evident in the first weekend opened were ironed out

I do agree with you about holidays, but then apparently there were very cheap deals that people took advantage of straight off

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Zizu

We have ??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

If we have, I can't say I've noticed that.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

children can transmit the virus onto those who the virus is deadly to though

It's becoming a real balancing act though because of how badly isolation is starting to affect kids. Literally NEVER in history have we had children, en masse, being isolated from their peers like they have been in lockdown... it's essentially a social experiment on a grand scale and now that we're far enough into it to be able to see the effects, we can be pretty sure about what they are. Absolutely devastating to children's mental wellbeing. Is the mental health of an entire generation worth the risks? I would personally say so, yes. More than. We have already basically promised my daughter that if full lockdown was to happen again, she would still be able to play outdoors with her local friends, regardless of recommendations (and assuming their parents were ok with it). Controversial maybe but I'm not willing to risk the effects that the prospect of another 4+ months without physical contact with friends would have on her.

We have a tendency to think of kids as mini-adults and that if we can do it they can too... but they're not. 4 months, developmentally, is a huge span of time for a child. Honestly I don't think we have any idea at all what the long term effects of this are.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

children can transmit the virus onto those who the virus is deadly to though

Of course they can.

It's never been assured they cannot.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's becoming a real balancing act though because of how badly isolation is starting to affect kids. Literally NEVER in history have we had children, en masse, being isolated from their peers like they have been in lockdown... it's essentially a social experiment on a grand scale and now that we're far enough into it to be able to see the effects, we can be pretty sure about what they are. Absolutely devastating to children's mental wellbeing. Is the mental health of an entire generation worth the risks? I would personally say so, yes. More than. We have already basically promised my daughter that if full lockdown was to happen again, she would still be able to play outdoors with her local friends, regardless of recommendations (and assuming their parents were ok with it). Controversial maybe but I'm not willing to risk the effects that the prospect of another 4+ months without physical contact with friends would have on her.

We have a tendency to think of kids as mini-adults and that if we can do it they can too... but they're not. 4 months, developmentally, is a huge span of time for a child. Honestly I don't think we have any idea at all what the long term effects of this are.

...it’s not just children being isolated from their peers, though...that’s just one of the layers...another is the fear that children are feeling en masse of the death of a family member...of parents/grandparents/brothers/sisters etc...in all of the time I’ve worked with children, which is a long time....I’ve never known mental health to be so low ...and on occasions I’ve known..?...to have self harming thoughts and actions......just awful...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

What is that significant number?

I said, if you read it correctly, if those instructed to shield, wanted to take the risks then so be it.

I stated the government instruction to shield should stay in place.

For frankly, whatever your significant number may be, all in my own family and most elderly or sick, are very worried and confused.

There'll always be numbers not conforming to instructions, that doesn't mean the instructions are wrong.
I stated, the instruction to shield should stay in place.

Especially moreso now, since even this PM says he thinks a second wave is likely in 2 weeks.

Sorry I can't agree that one size fits all.
If you have vulnerably sick and elderly who are more likely to lose their lives if they get this.
All instructions should be to only protect them.
Yes, there'll be some who'll ignore that shielding instruction.

They and others too who haven't lost anyone to this, in the awful way it takes lives, again still hundreds a week.
Then not been able to even attend their funerals.
They may well think entirely differently if they do.

Especially from those in the Country who think hundreds of deaths a week are good news.
Unbelievable.

They were asked to shield for 12 weeks then a further 4, then there was some leeway with going outside, it obviously sucks but they could be shielding forever if a vaccine isn't found, they have to find a way to resume some kind of normal life and at many of the briefings there were questions at to how they could do this as some of those shielding felt they were forgotton, everyone has a different story, and no its not one size fits all, if you live in a fairly remote area the need for you to shield is completely different to those living in a City

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I disagree with this, people had nothing to do for 3 months, it was becoming increasingly clear with the number of illegal raves/street parties that something had to give, I would rather they were opened in a measured way as they are now, not that I have been but it seems from what I have heard that social distancing is very much the norm and any issues that were evident in the first weekend opened were ironed out

I do agree with you about holidays, but then apparently there were very cheap deals that people took advantage of straight off

Agreed and if we want to keep any of these sectors alive and the millions of jobs that they maintain then yes they do need to reopen

I'm sure that the vast majority of people who've visited a pub or restaurant has been pretty impressed with the measures in place and felt safe. People don't leave the unit they go to the premises with, there's no standing around and mingling, everything is being constantly sanisted, everyone's visit is on record and the numbers are strictly limited

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...it’s not just children being isolated from their peers, though...that’s just one of the layers...another is the fear that children are feeling en masse of the death of a family member...of parents/grandparents/brothers/sisters etc...in all of the time I’ve worked with children, which is a long time....I’ve never known mental health to be so low ...and on occasions I’ve known..?...to have self harming thoughts and actions......just awful...

I can see that leading to a lot of kids being down for a while, but in terms of what we "know"... kids losing grandparents and other adult family members isn't abnormal. Losing older family members - whilst obviously sad and having a grief process - is a normal part of life and growing up and always has been. Of course, the way children gain resilience and deal with these things best is with positivity, normality, and just being able to escape from it in play with their peers and that's all been totally absent. Like... your gran who you loved has just died but at least you can go to the park? You can go to your friend's house? You can go play football with your pals and forget about it for a while? Even school is a distraction and some normality but no... all of those things have been gone... so you have adults grieving for their own parents, and kids just stuck there with nothing to do but take in all of that pain. Really awful and something that like I said, has never happened before in human history. We're social animals, we need that connection... adults can intellectualise it a bit better and can cope for far longer without it, but I just don't think kids can. We've known since the dawn of developmental psychology that peer connections and play are essential parts of normal human development and taking that away from them all for a prolonged period of time... we just have no idea what it'll do.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Cherie

They were asked to shield for 12 weeks then a further 4, then there was some leeway with going outside, it obviously sucks but they could be shielding forever if a vaccine isn't found, they have to find a way to resume some kind of normal life and at many of the briefings there were questions at to how they could do this as some of those shielding felt they were forgotton, everyone has a different story, and no its not one size fits all, if you live in a fairly remote area the need for you to shield is completely different to those living in a City

Well I'll ask again.

How many of those shielding wanted an end to the shielding.
Especially I add as to others entering their ' safe ' home areas and as to the help and aid put in place to help those shielding.

To those actually in rural areas too.

Now the government is stopping the shielding, that instruction of the home being safest and that aid is halted.

I actually think you'd find, more shielding would prefer that staying in place.
I'd dare bet on it.

Unless you can fire me those significant and many numbers you mention not quantified.
That would show a majority against remaining protectively shielded.
I believe, it wouldn't be a majority.

I just believe, as you overlook it, with the PM saying he is expecting a likely second wave in 2 weeks.
Then it makes no sense to remove the shielding in place, 2 weeks before it.

As you state, it was for 12 weeks to the 16th June..
It was then extended a further 2 weeks to 1st August.

So it has been extended once..
Why not again, especially in light of a possible second wave coming soon after ending said shielding.

I'd rather see shielding for longer than more sick and elderly ending up dead now.
With all the devastating pain that then too brings to their loved ones mourning their loss.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I can see that leading to a lot of kids being down for a while, but in terms of what we "know"... kids losing grandparents and other adult family members isn't abnormal. Losing older family members - whilst obviously sad and having a grief process - is a normal part of life and growing up and always has been. Of course, the way children gain resilience and deal with these things best is with positivity, normality, and just being able to escape from it in play with their peers and that's all been totally absent. Like... your gran who you loved has just died but at least you can go to the park? You can go to your friend's house? You can go play football with your pals and forget about it for a while? Even school is a distraction and some normality but no... all of those things have been gone... so you have adults grieving for their own parents, and kids just stuck there with nothing to do but take in all of that pain. Really awful and something that like I said, has never happened before in human history. We're social animals, we need that connection... adults can intellectualise it a bit better and can cope for far longer without it, but I just don't think kids can. We've known since the dawn of developmental psychology that peer connections and play are essential parts of normal human development and taking that away from them all for a prolonged period of time... we just have no idea what it'll do.

...of course, losing a grandparent is part of a young life...but the fear of losing a grandparent, while not having been able to visit/ see them is not a part of life that so many have had to experience en masse...again, another layer, of which there are many ...and because of media/social media etc...there are also children who feel personal responsibility if a family member/loved one have become ill...so many layers which have contributed to such low mental health, TS...and obviously, their fears haven’t just been for the more elderly loved ones...fears for parents and siblings in a way that hasn’t been experienced before...plus fears for peers/friends...

[arista]

[arista]

From Moscow
CNN Business reports their Russian Covid-19 Vaccine
is getting ready for their nation release.

But no data published,
they tested it, with younger staff members
in the Moscow lab.
Then used the Russian Army
to get a bigger test zone.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Well I'll ask again.

How many of those shielding wanted an end to the shielding.
Especially I add as to others entering their ' safe ' home areas and as to the help and aid put in place to help those shielding.

To those actually in rural areas too.

Now the government is stopping the shielding, that instruction of the home being safest and that aid is halted.

I actually think you'd find, more shielding would prefer that staying in place.
I'd dare bet on it.

Unless you can fire me those significant and many numbers you mention not quantified.
That would show a majority against remaining protectively shielded.
I believe, it wouldn't be a majority.

I just believe, as you overlook it, with the PM saying he is expecting a likely second wave in 2 weeks.
Then it makes no sense to remove the shielding in place, 2 weeks before it.

As you state, it was for 12 weeks to the 16th June..
It was then extended a further 2 weeks to 1st August.

So it has been extended once..
Why not again, especially in light of a possible second wave coming soon after ending said shielding.

I'd rather see shielding for longer than more sick and elderly ending up dead now.
With all the devastating pain that then too brings to their loved ones mourning their loss.

This is the scottish guidance which doesnt differ significantly from the English one
The original advice was to shield for at least 12 weeks, which comes to an end on 18 June. The levels of infection in the community are now significantly lower than they were in March, but the evidence suggests that it is advisable that people with the highest clinical risk should continue to shield. Having set out to save lives it does not feel right to prematurely end shielding until we are confident the evidence supports it.

However, we are very aware that shielding is difficult and it is not sustainable in the long term. The longer people are advised to shield, the greater impact it will have on their physical and mental health, on their relationships with their families and loved ones and on their quality of life. We are monitoring these impacts and constantly weighing up these harms against the benefits of shielding.

Moving to a new approach for shielding
We are learning about the virus all the time, and in particular about the factors that increase or reduce the risk to particular people. Because different things matter to different people, we need to move towards the idea of enabling those who are shielding to make choices about how to do it. In the course of the summer, once the evidence base has been developed, we will:

Provide people with updated clinical evidence about their conditions and what that means for their risk from Covid,
Help those shielding understand the changing levels of infection in the community and how to reduce the chance of catching the virus
Provide that information in a way that is accessible, understandable and helpful,
Give people who are shielding access to support that can help them make informed choices about their lives,
Support people shielding to put their choices into practice.
These choices have a tremendous impact on the lives of people shielding and also on the lives of their loved ones. That's why it's important that we do everything we can to make sure they have the chance to consider what matters to them.

We will continue to advise people shielding in an honest and open way, and we promise that advice will always be based on the best evidence we have.

This approach is dependent on us understanding as much as possible about the chances of people shielding catching the virus and the risk to them if they do. The evidence to support this is growing but we need to be sure it is robust enough before we start using it to change our approach. There is coordinated work being carried out across the four nations to gather this evidence and we hope that we will start to see the benefits of that over the course of
the summer.

Extension to shielding
We are advising people to continue to shield until at least 31st July. That is because, although infection rates are much lower than they were at the start of lockdown, we are not yet confident that it is safe enough to change our advice.

During this time we will continually review this advice and monitor Covid infection levels to make sure it remains the correct decision. We will continue to balance this against the harms caused by shielding. People who are shielding will continue to receive the support they have been getting, whether that be free weekly food boxes, access to priority supermarket delivery slots, pharmacy deliveries, or other support through Local Authorities.

However, we understand that it is not fair to continue to ask people to stay at home all the times, especially as restrictions are eased for everyone else. This is why we will be looking
for ways to gradually ease the guidance for shielding people if clinicians and scientists advise it is safe.

Outdoor Exercise
We will start by making a change to the advice on going outdoors for exercise.

We anticipate that people shielding will be able to take exercise outdoors from 18 June.

However, we will confirm this on 18 June based on the evidence. This also will not apply to people living in nursing or residential care homes – we are not yet confident this
is safe.

If you have been advised to shield and wish to go outside for exercise after 18 June, you should take the following precautions:

Go outdoors for a walk, wheel, run or cycle. We do not recommend that you take part in outdoor activities such as golf, hiking, canoeing, outdoor swimming, angling, etc. in the same way as the rest of the population can just now. You:

Can go out on your own or with someone you live with
Should maintain strict physical distancing, also known as social distancing, at all times, even if you live with the person you're out with. This means keeping 2 metres (or three steps) away from other people at all times
Should not meet with anyone you do not live with
Should choose times and areas that are quiet, if you can
Should wash your hands for at least 20 seconds as soon as you get back home
Future Changes to Advice
We do not intend to advise you to shield completely for any longer than necessary without further changes. We will set out updated guidance for you by 31 July at the latest. However, between now and then – and in addition to the changes we are signalling now on outdoor exercise – we will make further changes if it is safe to do so.

We want to gradually provide advice on how you can increase your freedoms, as we have done for those who are not shielding. We are continually monitoring the virus and as soon as we think it is safe for you to do something, we will update our advice. And as soon as we can provide you with information that will allow you to understand your own risk and make decisions about what is right for you, we will do so.

As we progress through the route map there will increasingly be need that the wider public recognises their role in keeping those shielding safe, in particular in supporting people shielding to regain some normality in their life, just as the wider public have been able to.


The bit in bold sums it up for me, people have to start living...shielding is not a choice most peoole would choole as a long term solution

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by arista

I don't know how accurate this simple graphic is but if it is at all accurate, Spain have been badly messing up their numbers (either deliberately or otherwise). It didn't jump from near enough 0 to 6000 in a day, that's obviously just nonsense, there simply MUST have been a more gradual increase that was either missed, ignored or hidden.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't know how accurate this simple graphic is but if it is at all accurate, Spain have been badly messing up their numbers (either deliberately or otherwise). It didn't jump from near enough 0 to 6000 in a day, that's obviously just nonsense, there simply MUST have been a more gradual increase that was either missed, ignored or hidden.

I think it is accurate
but only goes up to the 27th.


And the Spanish Leader is Angry
as it's only the top part of Spain.
Like the UK's Oldham or Leicester.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by arista

I think it is accurate
but only goes up to the 27th.


And the Spanish Leader is Angry
as it's only the top part of Spain.
Like the UK's Oldham or Leicester.

Who cares, the UK is on many red lists due to those areas

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I can see that leading to a lot of kids being down for a while, but in terms of what we "know"... kids losing grandparents and other adult family members isn't abnormal. Losing older family members - whilst obviously sad and having a grief process - is a normal part of life and growing up and always has been. Of course, the way children gain resilience and deal with these things best is with positivity, normality, and just being able to escape from it in play with their peers and that's all been totally absent. Like... your gran who you loved has just died but at least you can go to the park? You can go to your friend's house? You can go play football with your pals and forget about it for a while? Even school is a distraction and some normality but no... all of those things have been gone... so you have adults grieving for their own parents, and kids just stuck there with nothing to do but take in all of that pain. Really awful and something that like I said, has never happened before in human history. We're social animals, we need that connection... adults can intellectualise it a bit better and can cope for far longer without it, but I just don't think kids can. We've known since the dawn of developmental psychology that peer connections and play are essential parts of normal human development and taking that away from them all for a prolonged period of time... we just have no idea what it'll do.

My 9 year has just emerged from a massive anxious episode. I think a point you made earlier where you said about treating them as mini adults was the cause. He was privy to the news and adult conversations and so saw healthy younger people dying and obviously stewed on it for a while and that manifested into the possibility of me contracting covid and dying.

He has had losses before, we lost my mum, grandad and nan quite close together and he sailed through that, mainly as you said with distractions but this has wobbled him massively.

He is doing better now since his athletics and football training have started again (non contact and socially distanced) but he is a mixer and not being able to see his pals to the extent he is used to has rocked him.

So sad to see a confident, outgoing kid who rarely needed much entertaining become an anxious, tearful kid scared to go to bed in case I died.

So much damage is being done to these little people,its scarey

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

My 9 year has just emerged from a massive anxious episode. I think a point you made earlier where you said about treating them as mini adults was the cause. He was privy to the news and adult conversations and so saw healthy younger people dying and obviously stewed on it for a while and that manifested into the possibility of me contracting covid and dying.



He has had losses before, we lost my mum, grandad and nan quite close together and he sailed through that, mainly as you said with distractions but this has wobbled him massively.



He is doing better now since his athletics and football training have started again (non contact and socially distanced) but he is a mixer and not being able to see his pals to the extent he is used to has rocked him.



So sad to see a confident, outgoing kid who rarely needed much entertaining become an anxious, tearful kid scared to go to bed in case I died.



So much damage is being done to these little people,its scarey

My eldest is the same Annie, she's a massive extrovert (no idea where it comes from, neither me nor her mum are!), very sociable and and loves being around people. She normally does stage school and things like that. Young TS would have never! .

I think we missed something really bad by the skin of our teeth - she was starting to seem really depressed, sending some borderline concerning messages to her class group, tearful a lot for no reason and just really flat. Luckily within a couple of weeks of that starting, they announced that kids could play outside in groups and all the neighbourhood kids emerged to socialise outdoors (more than they used to, if anything) and the change in her mood was instant.