[LeatherTrumpet]

Transgender MMA fighter who used to be in US Army Special Forces reignites
debate over trans women in sport with rear-naked choke to seal debut victory

• Alana McLaughlin, 38, defeated opponent Celine Provost, 35, in the second round of the Combate Global preliminaries Friday
• McLaughin transitioned after leaving the US Army Special Forces in 2010
• She is the second openly transgender woman to fight MMA in the US, following Fallon Fox, who retired in 2014
• The victory via a rear-naked choke sparked controversy online in the ongoing debate regarding transgender woman in sports

The second openly transgender MMA fighter in the US has won her debut
match - reigniting the debate over trans women in sports.

Alana McLaughlin, 38, won her first professional fight in the Combate Global
prelims Friday against Celine Provost, ending the match with a rear-naked
choke 3 minutes and 32 seconds into the second round.

McLaughlin, from South Carolina, began her transition in 2010 after spending
six years in the US Army special forces.

Her victory prompted backlash from a number of people who said it was
unfair for a trans woman to compete against a cis-gendered athlete in the
sport.

'I'm getting a lot of variations of the same nasty messages calling me a cheater like I didn't just get beat on for a round and a half. Y'all need to
show Céline Provost some respect and take your concern trolling elsewhere.'
McLaughlin responded on Twitter, adding.

'Transphobes are just making my block hand stronger.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ins-debut.html

top comment: How much more evidence do you need, to see how wrong this is???

[arista]

Great Debate Now Live on GBnewsHD

[LeatherTrumpet]

Youtube video

[Oliver_W]

Transwomen shouldn't be competing against women, especially in combat sports. I hope Alana is proud of self, anyway. Must have been really hard for Alana to beat up a girl.

[LeatherTrumpet]

PIERS MORGAN: It made me sick to watch a once-male special forces combat veteran beat
up a woman on TV - it's time to stop this trans sport insanity before women start being
killed



The restrictive hormone treatment that sports authorities make transgender
women like MMA fighter Alana McLaughlin do before they can compete in
women's sport does not reduce muscle density or power. Celine Provost was
demonstrably a more skilled and experienced fighter during their bout on
Friday night, but just couldn't compete with the overwhelming physical
strength of her opponent. It's unfair, unequal, and in the case of combat
sport, incredibly dangerous.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rt-killed.html

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

transgender
women

Surely a "transgender woman" would be a transman?

[Toy Soldier]

There's actually abundant medical evidence at this point that if a transwoman has been through male puberty, although hormones will cause them to have less muscle mass, they do NOT significantly decrease muscle density or bone density. It's barely a debate at this point, it's a medically proven distinct sports advantage that is just being flat-out ignored. Unfair in 90% of sports, risky in most contact sports, simply outright dangerous in combat sports.

[Cherie]

Puts hand up...

[Niamh.]

A few well known male UFC Fighters have spoken out about this which is great news, maybe people will listen to the concerns now

https://www.mmanews.com/2021/09/sean...azu8Gc6USXBuGk

https://www.lowkickmma.com/michael-b...ender-fighter/

https://www.lowkickmma.com/sean-stri...-a-fcking-man/

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

A few well known male UFC Fighters have spoken out about this which is great news, maybe people will listen to the concerns now

https://www.mmanews.com/2021/09/sean...azu8Gc6USXBuGk

https://www.lowkickmma.com/michael-b...ender-fighter/

https://www.lowkickmma.com/sean-stri...-a-fcking-man/

“Good morning, friends, supporters and others! I’m getting a lot of variations of the same nasty messages calling me a cheater like I didn’t just get beat on for a round and a half. Y’all need to show Céline Provost some respect and take your concern trolling elsewhere,” Alana McLaughlin wrote on social media. “She almost finished me more than once, and on scorecards she definitely won that first round. This is the only post I’ll make about this. Transphobes are just making my block hand stronger.”

I don't know if she realises she's actually making one of the most obvious cases AGAINST being allowed to compete? The bit in bold? That is effectively saying "My opponent was objectively a more skilled fighter than me but I won because I have the advantage in strength and durability". That's the WHOLE PROBLEM ffs.

Like it seems really obvious? A 5'4 female black belt could kick a 6'3 rugby player with absolutely zero fighting experience around a karate mat all day and win on points 10x over if it was competition rules but I don't fancy her chances in a bar fight. It doesn't make him the new champ!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't know if she realises she's actually making one of the most obvious cases AGAINST being allowed to compete? The bit in bold? That is effectively saying "My opponent was objectively a more skilled fighter than me but I won because I have the advantage in strength and durability". That's the WHOLE PROBLEM ffs.

Exactly. It was the same with Fallon Fox

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[GiRTh]

I'm gonna a bit controversial. From a purely sporting point of view if its about a man fighting a woman in a controlled environment? I actually dont have too many issues. However, this geezer needs to take a long hard look at himself and his motivation for going down this career path.

I've come across some great female fighters over the years who i think would have beaten most men in the ring. The rules would have to be very strict and to the point that there would be heavy penalties for rule breaks so probably not a box office hit.

There is the clear domestic abuse argument that has been covered in this thread and I think we all in agreement.

This guys though? Its like a 30years old jacked fighter on steroids saying - I want to fight 12 year old. He has a clear advantage, he knows he has a clear advantage so what's he up to?

EDIT: OK my analogy is a bit extreme but you see the point I'm trying to make.

[Marsh.]

I understand there not being enough trans athletes to warrant adding trans categories into sporting events. But I don't see how it's exclusionary if that were an option.

We're constantly being told that the "gender binary" is too narrow and outdated, whilst simultaneously being told that unless everyone, including transpeople, are sorted into one of the two options of "man and woman" that it's transphobic or bigoted.

Either gender is fluid and therefore things like organising sporting categories becomes more complex... or it's not. It can't be both, surely?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

I'm gonna a bit controversial. From a purely sporting point of view if its about a man fighting a woman in a controlled environment? I actually dont have too many issues. However, this geezer needs to take a long hard look at himself and his motivation for going down this career path.

I've come across some great female fighters over the years who i think would have beaten most men in the ring. The rules would have to be very strict and to the point that there would be heavy penalties for rule breaks so probably not a box office hit.

Sure in a mainly points-based sport like featherweight-and-below boxing or karate or whatever in matched weight class... and with the understanding that it's a "genderless" competition... but the whole point of MMA is that it's not like that, surely? That's why it became a thing in the first place, was my understading.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I understand there not being enough trans athletes to warrant adding trans categories into sporting events. But I don't see how it's exclusionary if that were an option.

We're constantly being told that the "gender binary" is too narrow and outdated, whilst simultaneously being told that unless everyone, including transpeople, are sorted into one of the two options of "man and woman" that it's transphobic or bigoted.

Either gender is fluid and therefore things like organising sporting categories becomes more complex... or it's not. It can't be both, surely?

You could just have a 3rd "open to all" category where it's understood that there are no gender barriers to entry. The elephant in the room though is that it would be dominated by cis men who are "good" but "not good enough to be competitive in the mens category".

HOWEVER

It would not be exclusionary .

[Niamh.]

I see a lot of comments online about this subject when it comes to Sport, people (mostly men) saying women should just refuse to fight but it's not that simple for these women. They've worked so hard to get to where they are in the sport, it's not easy to get signed to a professional organisation in MMA (or probably any Sport but I do actually know a bit about MMA in particular) If Celine in this case had refused to fight she would have been pulled from the card and someone else would replace her and she probably wouldn't be offered anymore fights. These women are being put in an impossible situation. It's almost like the Hollywood/Harvey Weinstein/casting couch stuff, no one is forcing you to do it but if you don't somebody else will and you're going to be blacklisted. It's pretty **** because it's a problem only women ever seem to have to face

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I see a lot of comments online about this subject when it comes to Sport, people (mostly men) saying women should just refuse to fight but it's not that simple for these women. They've worked so hard to get to where they are in the sport, it's not easy to get signed to a professional organisation in MMA (or probably any Sport but I do actually know a bit about MMA in particular) If Celine in this case had refused to fight she would have been pulled from the card and someone else would replace her and she probably wouldn't be offered anymore fights. These women are being put in an impossible situation. It's almost like the Hollywood/Harvey Weinstein/casting couch stuff, no one is forcing you to do it but if you don't somebody else will and you're going to be blacklisted. It's pretty **** because it's a problem only women ever seem to have to face

There were a couple of posts in the "Insulate London" thread about how once rights are taken away, they're not easy to get back ...

Women's right to woman-only spaces are being taken away, and in the grand scheme of things they've only just got them.

And there are pick-me handmaidens who think the erosion of their rights is a good thing?!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

There were a couple of posts in the "Insulate London" thread about how once rights are taken away, they're not easy to get back ...

Women's right to woman-only spaces are being taken away, and in the grand scheme of things they've only just got them.

And there are pick-me handmaidens who think the erosion of their rights is a good thing?!

Yeah, there always will be though no matter what the issue

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I see a lot of comments online about this subject when it comes to Sport, people (mostly men) saying women should just refuse to fight but it's not that simple for these women. They've worked so hard to get to where they are in the sport, it's not easy to get signed to a professional organisation in MMA (or probably any Sport but I do actually know a bit about MMA in particular) If Celine in this case had refused to fight she would have been pulled from the card and someone else would replace her and she probably wouldn't be offered anymore fights. These women are being put in an impossible situation. It's almost like the Hollywood/Harvey Weinstein/casting couch stuff, no one is forcing you to do it but if you don't somebody else will and you're going to be blacklisted. It's pretty **** because it's a problem only women ever seem to have to face

It may take a fan boycott in all honesty, either a planned one by people who oppose it, or a natural one because to be honest if fights keep going this way, I'd imagine people are just going to lose interest.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I see a lot of comments online about this subject when it comes to Sport, people (mostly men) saying women should just refuse to fight but it's not that simple for these women. They've worked so hard to get to where they are in the sport, it's not easy to get signed to a professional organisation in MMA (or probably any Sport but I do actually know a bit about MMA in particular) If Celine in this case had refused to fight she would have been pulled from the card and someone else would replace her and she probably wouldn't be offered anymore fights. These women are being put in an impossible situation. It's almost like the Hollywood/Harvey Weinstein/casting couch stuff, no one is forcing you to do it but if you don't somebody else will and you're going to be blacklisted. It's pretty **** because it's a problem only women ever seem to have to face

It's real easy, every female refuses to fight and then the people who are there to make money, back down. The alternative is to be pushed about by the people who are there to make money.

They could even break away and start their own company and control it themselves, they're the ones who have the product. The darts players did that and look how that sport is thriving now.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

It's real easy, every female refuses to fight and then the people who are there to make money, back down. The alternative is to be pushed about by the people who are there to make money.

They could even break away and start their own company and control it themselves, they're the ones who have the product.

The issue is that you'd need to get a large proportion of people on board, and in a competitive sport like MMA where there are a lot of "hopefuls", there'll always be someone waiting for a shot. Of course it'll just get even more ridiculously skewed if the best fighters start refusing, I genuinely think they'll start to feel it in their pockets sooner rather than later anyway, people aren't going to keep watching these fights.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The issue is that you'd need to get a large proportion of people on board, and in a competitive sport like MMA where there are a lot of "hopefuls", there'll always be someone waiting for a shot. Of course it'll just get even more ridiculously skewed if the best fighters start refusing, I genuinely think they'll start to feel it in their pockets sooner rather than later anyway, people aren't going to keep watching these fights.

Only 16 darts players left the British darts organisation to form their own company. Now their company is the only one that exists. They were pub players earning peanuts until then. Now they're wealthy sports stars, some of them millionaires.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Alf

Only 16 darts players left the British darts organisation to form their own company. Now their company is the only one that exists. They were pub players earning peanuts until then. Now they're wealthy sports stars, some of them millionaires.

The other issue with that is that unfortunately women's MMA isn't as popular as men's, I think MMA (and Boxing) help women in the sport by having the women's fights in amongst the men's on the same cards and because of that it's gotten more popular so in order for that strategy to work you would also need some men to join the boycott imo and you would be relying on their moral compass there rather than fighting for themselves as they don't have skin in the game so to speak

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The other issue with that is that unfortunately women's MMA isn't as popular as men's, I think MMA (and Boxing) help women in the sport by having the women's fights in amongst the men's on the same cards and because of that it's gotten more popular so in order for that strategy to work you would also need some men to join the boycott imo and you would be relying on their moral compass there rather than fighting for themselves there as they don't have skin in the game so to speak

I'd expect the men to stand with the women. Have any fighters been speaking out about it, either from the men or the women categories?