[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by the truth

yes nothing to learn at all in , sounds like a mis-spent youth..those horrible sunday schools telling stories and raising money for their communities and singing songs about peace and love....theyll be sending missionaries out next to cloth and feed the starving millions...appalling....if only our kids had all started drink and drugs instead

Usual issue you have with it truth and my response is the same as ever: the fact that many churches do many good things, does not make any of the fairytales true. Wanting something to be real does not make it so.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Catholicism has mellowed out quite a lot over the years though

Maybe where you're at it's different. Here there's never been any substantial pressure above a few comments here and there... unless people happen to run into an uber church going family in their circle who sees them as their meal ticket to heaven/ego boost, but it's not like FLDS/Scientology level pressure and dogma...

For me the difference is it being voluntary versus being brainwashed/forced. Outside of your family home (if they even practice), I would say most institutions, like a school, are atheist. For example, most teachers who have ever vocalized anything about belief, talk about lack of evidence that God exist, etc... so it pretty much cancels itself out.

It's very hard to pressure someone here into a religion nowadays without it becoming synonymous with a cult. There is no church of the US

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Usual issue you have with it truth and my response is the same as ever: the fact that many churches do many good things, does not make any of the fairytales true. Wanting something to be real does not make it so.

what does it matter if its true or not if it saves billions?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Usual issue you have with it truth and my response is the same as ever: the fact that many churches do many good things, does not make any of the fairytales true. Wanting something to be real does not make it so.

: laugh:

And just in case anyone missed the others:



The Cumaen Sibyl? The Delphian Oracle? Cassandra? Who the hell are THEY?

We have our very own, all seeing, all knowing, Oracle on Tibb, and now that you have absolutely decreed that all religions are based upon 'fairytales', and emphatically answered THE greatest enigma ever to perplex the greatest philosophers throughout mankind's history - whether God exists or not - we can ALL be enlightened.

But your decree creates a further enigma in my mind:

Does your 'Scientific Rationalism' only apply where it suits your own agenda?

I mean;

Has 'science' categorically PROVEN that God does NOT exist? Err...... NO.

Is 'science' continually PROVING that many of the narratives in both the Old AND New Testaments are based on some FACT? Err...... YES.

The answer to the first question above, renders your 'statement' then, in the post I have quoted, no MORE than mere OPINION, no more or less credible than anyone else's opinion - Believers or non-Believers.

And - unless, YOU are the very omnipotent God whom you spend so much time denying in your posts - it is an opinion no more qualified than most other people's, and one which is CERTAINLY a lot less qualified than some --- In MY opinion, of course.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

: laugh:

And just in case anyone missed the others:



The Cumaen Sibyl? The Delphian Oracle? Cassandra? Who the hell are THEY?

We have our very own, all seeing, all knowing, Oracle on Tibb, and now that you have absolutely decreed that all religions are based upon 'fairytales', and emphatically answered THE greatest enigma ever to perplex the greatest philosophers throughout mankind's history - whether God exists or not - we can ALL be enlightened.

But your decree creates a further enigma in my mind:

Does your 'Scientific Rationalism' only apply where it suits your own agenda?

I mean;

Has 'science' categorically PROVEN that God does NOT exist? Err...... NO.

Is 'science' continually PROVING that many of the narratives in both the Old AND New Testaments are based on some FACT? Err...... YES.

The answer to the first question above, renders your 'statement' then, in the post I have quoted, no MORE than mere OPINION, no more or less credible than anyone else's opinion - Believers or non-Believers.

And - unless, YOU are the very omnipotent God whom you spend so much time denying in your posts - it is an opinion no more qualified than most other people's, and one which is CERTAINLY a lot less qualified than some --- In MY opinion, of course.

Having some history in the Bible doesn't make god real. Not seeing your point here Kirk.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

: laugh:

And just in case anyone missed the others:



The Cumaen Sibyl? The Delphian Oracle? Cassandra? Who the hell are THEY?

We have our very own, all seeing, all knowing, Oracle on Tibb, and now that you have absolutely decreed that all religions are based upon 'fairytales', and emphatically answered THE greatest enigma ever to perplex the greatest philosophers throughout mankind's history - whether God exists or not - we can ALL be enlightened.

But your decree creates a further enigma in my mind:

Does your 'Scientific Rationalism' only apply where it suits your own agenda?

I mean;

Has 'science' categorically PROVEN that God does NOT exist? Err...... NO.

Is 'science' continually PROVING that many of the narratives in both the Old AND New Testaments are based on some FACT? Err...... YES.

The answer to the first question above, renders your 'statement' then, in the post I have quoted, no MORE than mere OPINION, no more or less credible than anyone else's opinion - Believers or non-Believers.

And - unless, YOU are the very omnipotent God whom you spend so much time denying in your posts - it is an opinion no more qualified than most other people's, and one which is CERTAINLY a lot less qualified than some --- In MY opinion, of course.

Getting underhandedly personal to defend your "beliefs". Neither unusual nor unexpected. Still petty and boring, sneering, and mocking. If this is the outcome of your religion, you're welcome to it my friend.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Maru

Maybe where you're at it's different. Here there's never been any substantial pressure above a few comments here and there... unless people happen to run into an uber church going family in their circle who sees them as their meal ticket to heaven/ego boost, but it's not like FLDS/Scientology level pressure and dogma...

For me the difference is it being voluntary versus being brainwashed/forced. Outside of your family home (if they even practice), I would say most institutions, like a school, are atheist. For example, most teachers who have ever vocalized anything about belief, talk about lack of evidence that God exist, etc... so it pretty much cancels itself out.

It's very hard to pressure someone here into a religion nowadays without it becoming synonymous with a cult. There is no church of the US

It is different here, it certainly has waaaay mellowed out in recent years but over 90% of our "state" run schools are catholic and that is taught in the schools, as fact. If you identify as an atheist/having no religion your child is put below everyone else on the enrollment list eventhough you're paying for the running of that school the same as everyone else

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by the truth

what does it matter if its true or not if it saves billions?

It matters to anyone who can't willfully delude themselves. I've said in the past that I sometimes wish that religion (at its best) was real... it would certainly make life easier and more comfortable to believe in a higher power and an afterlife. There is however absolutely nothing in terms of a logical, rational argument for there being any truth in organised religion. Any attempt inevitably hinges on "faith", which is inherently irrational, by definition. The argument that you "Can't disprove it!!" is no argument at all, considering the list of things that "can't be disproven" is effectively infinite.

The evidence for organised religion being false, on the other hand, is staggering, although religious people will never admit that. The mere fact that there are multiple hundreds of organised religions on this ONE tiny speck of sand in an infinite universe can only lead to the conclusion that the likelihood of one of them, somehow, being correct, is infinitessimally small... which is more than enough to disregard that likelihood as insignificant.

The likelihood of there being SOME sort of intelligent creative force in the universe beyond our comprehension, is a complete unknown, putting the likelihood of THAT at around 50/50. Where people get confused by this, is that they think this statement is the same as saying that "Christianity could be true!", or Islam, or Hinduism, or Scientology. It is not. Organised religion is a human creation used to explain the unknown and the unknowable. Partly for comfort and to keep existential fears at bay, partly simply for power and control. There is no other rational explanation for there being multiple organised religions with specific geographic origins. None.

[Cherie]

It seems to me that some non believers are more bothersome than God Botherers , Live and let Live, what does it matter if people want to go to Church, for many it's a social occasion as well as finding comfort in it, it's better than hitting the bottle or dabbling in drugs, Church's can also be a focal point for the community as evidenced by the food bank which was robbed in Stratford recently, I hate cricket and don't see any point in it but I don't want it obliterated from the face of the earth to suit me


Since the beginning of Austerity in 2010, there has been an exponential rise in the number of British people reliant on food banks to eat. Today, more than a million people find themselves in such circumstances. But now, even the food banks themselves are coming under attack, as looters pillage their supplies to sell or distribute elsewhere.

The most recent attack happened at the Stratford Food Bank located in St Paul’s Church, which was robbed of 80% of its supplies overnight – leaving the food bank unable to meet the challenge of feeding hungry people the following day. Labour MP Lyn Brown announced the robbery on social media.


The Canary contacted St Paul’s church, which confirmed the attack had taken place. Reverend Jeremy Fraser told The Canary that while the attack itself was devastating, “we are seeing it as something which has allowed the local community to come together and do something positive.”

Indeed they did. Twenty churches in the area gathered more than Ł600 in cash donations, and others in the community, including a local school (Chobham Academy) showed up with bags of food. The community successfully rallied to support both the church, and those reliant on their aid.

The attack on St Paul’s comes just weeks after a Fulham food bank had its windows smashed and supplies stolen. Manager Daphine Aikens told The Chronicle:

It is really sad that somebody was so desperate they felt they had to break into the store room. If they had come and asked we might have been able to help.

It is a sad indictment of our society today that somebody feels they have to steal from the food bank.
Similar attacks have taken place all over the country, including high-profile cases in Newcastle, Reading, and Birmingham.

Britain is hungry. The figures from the Trussell Trust, Britain’s largest network of food banks reveal a staggering rise in emergency food dependency across the country. As shown below, food bank dependency was virtually a non-issue in 2008/9, but now accounts for one in every 60 adults in the UK.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

It seems to me that some non believers are more bothersome than God Botherers , Live and let Live, what does it matter if people want to go to Church, for many it's a social occasion as well as finding comfort in it, it's better than hitting the bottle or dabbling in drugs, Church's can also be a focal point for the community as evidenced by the food bank which was robbed in Stratford recently, I hate cricket and don't see any point in it but I don't want it obliterated from the face of the earth to suit me

I just find the whole thing interesting tbh plus coming from Ireland where it was pretty forced (certainly when I was a child anyway) I think I have every right to speak about it and want some changes here, especially separating schools/the state from the Church

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Cherie

It seems to me that some non believers are more bothersome than God Botherers , Live and let Live, what does it matter if people want to go to Church, for many it's a social occasion as well as finding comfort in it, it's better than hitting the bottle or dabbling in drugs, Church's can also be a focal point for the community as evidenced by the food bank which was robbed in Stratford recently, I hate cricket and don't see any point in it but I don't want it obliterated from the face of the earth to suit me

As i am fed up saying

no one cares about people who think Jedi is a real religion, no one cares that people think aliens are real and living on earth or that they killed the dinosaurs and NO ONE will care about religion if it is taken out of schools and politics and off tv and radio

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I just find the whole thing interesting tbh plus coming from Ireland where it was pretty forced (certainly when I was a child anyway) I think I have every right to speak about it and want some changes here, especially separating schools/the state from the Church

A debate is fine but as usual it we ends into the usual whitewash that religious types are ignorant nutter and need to be told as much

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

A debate is fine but as usual it we ends into the usual whitewash that religious types are ignorant nutter and need to be told as much

I don't think I've said anything like that, have I?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

As i am fed up saying

no one cares about people who think Jedi is a real religion, no one cares that people think aliens are real and living on earth or that they killed the dinosaurs and NO ONE will care about religion if it is taken out of schools and politics and off tv and radio

some one somewhere would care

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't think I've said anything like that, have I?

No not at all

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Cherie

A debate is fine but as usual it we ends into the usual whitewash that religious types are ignorant nutter and need to be told as much

That is always the cry of the "faithful" but funnily enough do you ever, ever remember anyone on here trying to defend why they believe, maybe explain why praying works, why they think an invisible man is in the sky, how someone who is dead goes to "heaven" etc etc?


because I cant

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

That is always the cry of the "faithful" but funnily enough do you ever, ever remember anyone on here trying to defend why they believe, maybe explain why praying works, why they think an invisible man is in the sky, how someone who is dead goes to "heaven" etc etc?


because I cant

that's because you have no faith

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

It seems to me that some non believers are more bothersome than God Botherers , Live and let Live, what does it matter if people want to go to Church, for many it's a social occasion as well as finding comfort in it, it's better than hitting the bottle or dabbling in drugs, Church's can also be a focal point for the community as evidenced by the food bank which was robbed in Stratford recently, I hate cricket and don't see any point in it but I don't want it obliterated from the face of the earth to suit me

I wouldn't go around churches stopping religious people from doing what they want to do or really comment on it at all uninvited... Like I said we do count a quite heavily Christian amongst our friends and (praying for us aside) it's never been an issue. I also have semi frequent morning chats with an elderly Caribbean lady at the bus stop (7.30am bus ) who is a Jehovahs Witness. She chats about the weather, and God, and I politely take her leaflets and pretend that I'll have a look at them... Mainly to be fair because I think her accent is awesome .


However when the debate does come up, it's one that I have fairly strong opinions on, and find interesting. I'm not pushing my beliefs but neither am I going to pretend to think that something I don't believe is likely or possible, in the context of a debate, simply to preserve feelings or insecurities. To be honest, in my opinion, if a religious person finds religion being questioned or discounted hurtful or hard to accept, if it makes them feel bad or angry, then they should probably avoid religious debate...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

That is always the cry of the "faithful" but funnily enough do you ever, ever remember anyone on here trying to defend why they believe, maybe explain why praying works, why they think an invisible man is in the sky, how someone who is dead goes to "heaven" etc etc?


because I cant

People don't need to defend it, why should they explain themselves to people on a forum who would only mock them anyway, explaining themselves is not going to change anyone's mind, the same as non botherers explaining themselves endlessly makes no difference Same **** different day with this topic

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

That is always the cry of the "faithful" but funnily enough do you ever, ever remember anyone on here trying to defend why they believe, maybe explain why praying works, why they think an invisible man is in the sky, how someone who is dead goes to "heaven" etc etc?


because I cant

Well exactly because like I said, you can't deconstruct a religious thought process and break it down into logical steps without at some point encountering the concept of Faith... and Faith is by necessity irrational (not even as a slur... just literally "not rational").

Kirk has tried on many occasions to argue for the validity of religion based on there being proof of events described in the Bible. The problem of course being that no one is denying that the Bible contains plenty of accounts of actual historical events. There seems to be an inability to separate the history from the supernatural, is the issue. Evidence of the physical events occurring are in no way proof of any spiritual / otherworldly / mystical / godly involvement.

[Cherie]

I'm not even particularly religious I'm more a Christmas and Easter catholic although I do like to light a candle in churches when I'm abroad so I don't even know why I'm bothering with the non Botherers

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I'm not even particularly religious I'm more a Christmas and Easter catholic although I do like to light a candle in churches when I'm abroad :smug; so I don't even know why I'm bothering with the non Botherers

Cherie's personal crusade to burn down all foreign churches

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I'm not even particularly religious I'm more a Christmas and Easter catholic although I do like to light a candle in churches when I'm abroad :smug; so I don't even know why I'm bothering with the non Botherers

Non botherers

My mom is a bit like this, she likes the singing and stuff at mass but she rarely goes either. My dad never goes at all unless its a wedding/funeral. It's weird how they obviously have no interest in religion really yet they forced us to go to mass every Sunday until we were teenagers, then we stopped going and so did they

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I just find the whole thing interesting tbh plus coming from Ireland where it was pretty forced (certainly when I was a child anyway) I think I have every right to speak about it and want some changes here, especially separating schools/the state from the Church

..I think that's the thing though, or the thing that Ricky was saying in the video...that it's whether it impacts on your life in a very real and negative way and for you it does, in that your children aren't given equal opportunities in schools because of religious reasons...

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Cherie

A debate is fine but as usual it we ends into the usual whitewash that religious types are ignorant nutter and need to be told as much

I can't say I've seen anyone call anyone else in this thread a nutter.
Though some people do get defensive.