[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I just find the whole thing interesting tbh plus coming from Ireland where it was pretty forced (certainly when I was a child anyway) I think I have every right to speak about it and want some changes here, especially separating schools/the state from the Church

I totally get why you'd want separation of state and church. Shocking that some children are disadvantaged for potential education because their parents aren't interested in religion.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I can't say I've seen anyone call anyone else in this thread a nutter.
Though some people do get defensive.

It's full of the usual SD faces though which means it's nutters by default .

We'rE aLL MaD heRE!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I think that's the thing though, or the thing that Ricky was saying in the video...that it's whether it impacts on your life in a very real and negative way and for you it does, in that your children aren't given equal opportunities in schools because of religious reasons...

Yeah, also what bothers me (again this is from own personal experiences) is people just carry on with it, like my parents did and I've even done it myself just to make life easier/the kids lives easier. Choosing to have no religion isn't that easy of choice here, I mean you get lots and lots of people who will just go through the motions of baptising their kids just so it's easier to get in schools or so your kid won't be the odd one out etc etc It's not that the Church are forcing them to be Catholic per se but because it's so intertwined in our schools and to some extent the state (although that's much better in recent years) it makes it more difficult to make the choice you really want regarding religion

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I totally get why you'd want separation of state and church. Shocking that some children are disadvantaged for potential education because their parents aren't interested in religion.

It's absolutely shocking but It will change, there's been a lot of talk and grumblings about that in the last few years

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah, also what bothers me (again this is from own personal experiences) is people just carry on with it, like my parents did and I've even done it myself just to make life easier/the kids lives easier. Choosing to have no religion isn't that easy of choice here, I mean you get lots and lots of people who will just go through the motions of baptising their kids just so it easier to get in schools or so your kid won't be the odd one out etc etc It's not that the Church are forcing them to be Catholic per se but because it's so intertwined in our schools and to some extent the state (although that's much better in recent years) it makes it more difficult to make the choice you really want regarding religion

..so do you declare yourself as a Catholic then, so that your children aren't disadvantaged in their education..?..(I don't know if declare is the right word but..)...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..so do you declare yourself as a Catholic then, so that your children aren't disadvantaged in their education..?..(I don't know if declare is the right word but..)...

Kind of, I mean I always put down in the census No Religion but I did get them baptised and they've made their communions etc but I've always told them from when they started school that eventhough when the teacher teaches you religion and says this stuff is true, I don't believe it is and that you have to think about it yourself and decide what you believe. None of them do believe any of it

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Kind of, I mean I always put down in the census No Religion but I did get them baptised and they've made their communions etc but I've always told them from when they started school that eventhough when the teacher teaches you religion and says this stuff is true, I don't believe it is and that you have to think about it yourself and decide what you believe. None of them do believe any of it

..it's just incredible that it's still such a struggle though with stuff like that with the history of religion in Ireland/things like the Magdalene Laundries and the wrongs and the cruelty/prejudices of it/Catholicism... ..

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's just incredible that it's still such a struggle though with stuff like that with the history of religion in Ireland/things like the Magdalene Laundries and the wrongs and the cruelty/prejudices of it/Catholicism... ..

The problem with the schools is that it was the Catholic church who started most of them up originally, but they don't pay for them now, we the tax payers do and tbh with all the horrible s**t they were responsible for back then, setting up some schools was the least they could give back imo

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Kind of, I mean I always put down in the census No Religion but I did get them baptised and they've made their communions etc but I've always told them from when they started school that eventhough when the teacher teaches you religion and says this stuff is true, I don't believe it is and that you have to think about it yourself and decide what you believe. None of them do believe any of it

I don't understand that though as I knew kids who went through the catholic
school system who were non Catholics and who weren't disadvantaged, they had the same education as everyone else? This was back in the early 90s they just didn't attend RE

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I don't understand that though as I knew kids who went through the catholic
school system who were non Catholics and who weren't disadvantaged, they had the same education as everyone else? This was back in the early 90s they just didn't attend RE

It is true that children who have no religion are put to the bottom of the lists. And kids shouldn't have to sit out of lessons, they should just not be taught in state schools, they have no place there

I feel really strongly about this actually, religion has no place in schools and there certainly shouldn't be a policy of students having to sit out of part of valuable school time because Religion is being taught or the classes are preparing for masses/confirmations/communions and the latter two take up huge chunks of school time.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's full of the usual SD faces though which means it's nutters by default .

We'rE aLL MaD heRE!

Did you just call me a nutter?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's absolutely shocking but It will change, there's been a lot of talk and grumblings about that in the last few years

I saw a programme talking about how there seems to be a a change in peoples attitudes to the church in Ireland in recent years. Was very interesting.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I saw a programme talking about how there seems to be a a change in peoples attitudes to the church in Ireland in recent years. Was very interesting.

Oh there really is, I can see it myself and I'm sure my parents even more so

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh there really is, I can see it myself and I'm sure my parents even more so

It makes me wonder if the change will make unification of North and South possible in future if the changes do come about.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

It makes me wonder if the change will make Unification of North and South possible in future if the changes do come about.

No offense here Jaxie but I'm truly shocked everytime a British person makes a comment like that The lack of understanding you seem to have about North/South Ireland is baffling. You know the North and South isn't a religious feud. We weren't fighting between eachother to convert eachother or whatever. The reason why so many Protestants in Northern ireland want to stay within the UK is because they were mostly originally from there as that's the most prominent religion in Britain and the reason why most nationalists are catholic is because they were probably mostly originally irish as that was the most prominent religion in Ireland.

have no doubt that Ireland splitting in two and the IRA forming and all the troubles up there, is because Britain invaded our country and when they decided to give it back eventually, split it in two for some reason......it almost seems like it's been pawned off to Irish fighting amongst eachother in some religious war instead of what it actually was, Nationalists wanting Ireland to be one again and Unionists wanting to be British (because they mostly were from Britain anyway originally)

All religion had to do with it really was a way of identifying where your allegiances lay (ie Irish(catholic) V's British(Protestant)

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by jaxie

It makes me wonder if the change will make unification of North and South possible in future if the changes do come about.

The conflict was about land borders and nationality, nothing to do with religion. It just happened most of those wanting a united Ireland were Irish Catholics and most wanting to stay within the Union are English Protestants

[Niamh.]

This article explains it well I think

Northern Ireland was provisioned as a separate territory in 1922. This point of contention between England and the Republic of Ireland turned habitually violent in 1969 with the formation of the IRA (Irish Republican Army), a terror group that was considered to be the armed wing of the Sinn Fein political party, which supports Irish nationalism and Marxist ideology. The violence abated in the mid-1990's with an agreement between the sides.

Although it's popular to think of this chapter in the conflict as Catholic versus Protestant, it is also simplistic and misleading. The IRA does not stand for "Catholic Army." Historians and political scientists usually describe the two sides with words like Nationalist, Republican, Ulster, Loyalist and Unionist. Even the religious sectarian labels often did not hold up. Protestants were found on both sides of the conflict, for example, and there were notable Catholics who remained loyal to England.

The IRA did not have a Biblical charter. In fact, they were a Marxist-atheist organization. Neither did the British government have religious motives, nor any of the other major groups. There were some smaller, radical groups that used the language of religious purity, but they were relatively obscure. The issue for the "Catholic" factions was Irish nationalism, and for the "Protestants" it was self-preservation and an end to the violence. Only a very small minority of the citizens in Northern Ireland actually participated in the conflict, although the grief was spread among many.

Church leaders on both sides routinely condemned the violence - in fact, the Catholic church excommunicated members of the IRA. The claims of responsibility for the bombings and assassinations did not typically quote from the Bible or make reference to God. (Muslim terrorists quote liberally from the Quran in their statements, and are very explicit about their battle for the cause of Islam).

Neither was there any expressed interest on the part of either side in the Northern Ireland conflict to convert unbelievers or spread sectarian beliefs beyond the disputed area. Protestant clerics in Ireland weren't targeted by Irish Catholics (for being clerics) and neither were priests in England by English Protestants. Religious affiliation was a loose marker of identity, but there were no glaring theological differences between Protestants and Catholics on which the conflict was specifically based. Rather it was political in nature.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/p...ira-islam.aspx

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.;8[B

956643]It is true that children who have no religion are put to the bottom of the lists. And kids shouldn't have to sit out of lessons, they should just not be taught in state schools, they have no place there[/B]

I feel really strongly about this actually, religion has no place in schools and there certainly shouldn't be a policy of students having to sit out of part of valuable school time because Religion is being taught or the classes are preparing for masses/confirmations/communions and the latter two take up huge chunks of school time.

That's discrimination and should be challenged

[Ammi]

...I'm just reading up a bit about the school/education structure in Ireland.../which is obviously as you say, Niamh...

http://www.dochara.com/the-irish/facts/about-religion/


Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen, and no law may be made either directly or indirectly to endow any religion, or prohibit or restrict the free exercise thereof or give any preference, or impose any disability on account of religious belief or religious status, or affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending the religious instruction at the school, or make any discrimination as respects State aid between schools under the management of different religious denominations
Constitutionally the result is that Ireland is one of the most religiously free countries in the world.



While the constitution does not place one religion over another, this would be hard to detect when looking at the state education system. There is a system of free state funded primary (elementary) schools, known as National Scools, but these are invariably Catholic schools in all but name. Although pupils of any religion may, and do, attend, the schools are governed by boards chaired by the local Catholic bishop and the teaching of Catholic Religion is central to the curriculum.
Those who wish to attend a school where another religion is taught, or an inter-denominational or non-denominational one, can do so in privately run schools, though these do receive state funding. However these schools do not exist in many areas, or are over-subscribed, and the reality is that over 90% of primary schools are Catholic run. There are some moves by the government to rectify this situation, but the wheels seem to be turning slowly.
It’s often suggested that this lack of choice in schools is one of the reasons that people who no longer practice their Catholic religion, or who have essentially left religion behind, still have their children baptised – it’s all about getting a place at the local school.
At secondary (high school) level, the vast majority of schools, while funded by the state, are run by religious and have a faith based ethos, although in a time of dwindling vocations and aging congregations many have latterly turned over day to day management to* lay trusts.


...so it's (religion yes..)...but the abuse of power in that religion of people ... of the bishops who chair the school governing boards and decide on place preferences...(and those preferences being baptised Catholic children..)..?...and they're going against the whole constitution and ethos of a country and changes that it's striving for...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

That's discrimination and should be challenged

What should be challenged is the churches involvement in schools altogether imo

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What should be challenged is the churches involvement in schools altogether imo

...this indeed, the bishops seem to be abusing their power with this, completely...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I'm just reading up a bit about the school/education structure in Ireland.../which is obviously as you say, Niamh...

http://www.dochara.com/the-irish/facts/about-religion/


Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen, and no law may be made either directly or indirectly to endow any religion, or prohibit or restrict the free exercise thereof or give any preference, or impose any disability on account of religious belief or religious status, or affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending the religious instruction at the school, or make any discrimination as respects State aid between schools under the management of different religious denominations
Constitutionally the result is that Ireland is one of the most religiously free countries in the world.



While the constitution does not place one religion over another, this would be hard to detect when looking at the state education system. There is a system of free state funded primary (elementary) schools, known as National Scools, but these are invariably Catholic schools in all but name. Although pupils of any religion may, and do, attend, the schools are governed by boards chaired by the local Catholic bishop and the teaching of Catholic Religion is central to the curriculum.
Those who wish to attend a school where another religion is taught, or an inter-denominational or non-denominational one, can do so in privately run schools, though these do receive state funding. However these schools do not exist in many areas, or are over-subscribed, and the reality is that over 90% of primary schools are Catholic run. There are some moves by the government to rectify this situation, but the wheels seem to be turning slowly.
It’s often suggested that this lack of choice in schools is one of the reasons that people who no longer practice their Catholic religion, or who have essentially left religion behind, still have their children baptised – it’s all about getting a place at the local school.
At secondary (high school) level, the vast majority of schools, while funded by the state, are run by religious and have a faith based ethos, although in a time of dwindling vocations and aging congregations many have latterly turned over day to day management to* lay trusts.


...so it's (religion yes..)...but the abuse of power in that religion of people ... of the bishops who chair the school governing boards and decide on place preferences...(and those preferences being baptised Catholic children..)..?...and they're going against the whole constitution and ethos of a country and changes that it's striving for...

Yep in a nut shell Ammi. My daughters secondary school, like that article says, has a Catholic ethos but it's not anywhere near as invasive as primary school. They do religion as an exam subject but they learn about other religions and it's more of a study of them rather than this is how it is type of thing.....although they do still have a Catholic religion class too. I could opt her out of that but she doesn't want a fuss made, she just goes eventhough she thinks it's all BS

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yep in a nut shell Ammi. My daughters secondary school, like that article says, has a Catholic ethos but it's not anywhere near as invasive as primary school. They do religion as an exam subject but they learn about other religions and it's more of a study of them rather than this is how it is type of thing.....although they do still have a Catholic religion class too. I could opt her out of that but she doesn't want a fuss made, she just goes eventhough she thinks it's all BS

..it's just such a wrong and contradictory thing in prejudicing against non faith/religion and yet a part of it being, teaching non-belief of religion as well as an option...(although some schools will teach religion itself in different ways, wherever the school, in the UK as well etc..)...the placings themselves, seem to be the abuse of power given to bishops in schools../maybe not all of them..?...but many of them..?...

[bitontheslide]

Some schools will have a good science department and therfore champion it an encourage pupils into studying those subjects. Other schools are noted for their sporting achievements, and so give preference to it over other things when the situation arises.

What I'm trying to say is that every school has an inherent agenda in whatever area you would like to investigate. Where does one start in making things fair for all, because its not, and it never will be.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Some schools will have a good science department and therfore champion it an encourage pupils into studying those subjects. Other schools are noted for their sporting achievements, and so give preference to it over other things when the situation arises.

What I'm trying to say is that every school has an inherent agenda in whatever area you would like to investigate. Where does one start in making things fair for all, because its not, and it never will be.

..yeah totally, different schools will have things that suit specific children which might take a child out of catchment area to attend that school but they don't have 'trends' though like this, in the way they're governed and a specific religion/belief factoring into it so it can't really be compared at all in the same way....there is an ocean of difference between..'that school can't offer my child...' and 'that school won't accept my child...'....