[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Livia

Who are these anti-immigration Farage-ites? It was the Conservatives who offered the In/Out referendum, not UKIP and definitely not Labour. The only party of offer a proper referendum was the Tories. Most of the people I've spoken to about this have really given it some thought, whether they're ins or outs. No one's taking this opportunity lightly and if anyone thinks that if we do exit Europe, it'll be because of some Farage followers they'd be seriously mistaken. If we do come out of Europe it'll be because thinking people have made a decision they think right for this country... whether that sits well with some or not.

The only reason we are having a referendum on Europe now is because of the rise of UKIP support before he was re-elected. It was merely Camerons sales pitch to ensure he got back in. Are you suggesting UKIP weren't using the out vote ? and he didn't suggest that the only way to clean up the UK's immigration problem was to leave the EU?

Whilst I believe a lot of people will put a lot of thought into this, I also think a lot of people will be influenced by single issues and not look at the broader picture and single issue voters are not representative of the general population.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Emma Thompson has intervened on Britain's future in Europe by urging the UK not to fall back to its 'cake-filled misery-laden grey old island'.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz40LUibHAu


I swear people think this is a vote to leave Europe geographically and not just leave the EU

From the article:

Stuart Jackson, the Tory MP for Peterborough, immediately hit out at the claims.

He said: 'I really couldn't give a monkeys what overpaid Leftie luvvie Emma Thompson thinks about Brexit.'

I'm trying to work out the rationale. That surely means that if Cameron wants to stay in Europe (which he does) he must be a leftie too?

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

From the article:

Stuart Jackson, the Tory MP for Peterborough, immediately hit out at the claims.

He said: 'I really couldn't give a monkeys what overpaid Leftie luvvie Emma Thompson thinks about Brexit.'

I'm trying to work out the rationale. That surely means that if Cameron wants to stay in Europe (which he does) he must be a leftie too?

Thompson is a well known as a leftie in general though, and a particularly annoying one

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

From the article:

Stuart Jackson, the Tory MP for Peterborough, immediately hit out at the claims.

He said: 'I really couldn't give a monkeys what overpaid Leftie luvvie Emma Thompson thinks about Brexit.'

I'm trying to work out the rationale. That surely means that if Cameron wants to stay in Europe (which he does) he must be a leftie too?

there are plenty of tories that want out of the EU

[arista]

The PM
is Conservative-Liberal
thats why he got in Power in 2010.

I was telling the Late & Great Andyman
poster back in 2008 - 2009
about Why His Labour
under Scottish Brown
would lose.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

there are plenty of tories that want out of the EU

Perhaps so but its the Tory purse that will pay for the up and coming fear campaigns re-leaving.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by arista

The PM
is Conservative-Liberal
thats why he got in Power in 2010.

I was telling the Late & Great Andyman
poster back in 2008 - 2009
about Why His Labour
under Scottish Brown
would lose.

In name only. Cameron is certainly not a supporter of civil liberties.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The only reason we are having a referendum on Europe now is because of the rise of UKIP support before he was re-elected. It was merely Camerons sales pitch to ensure he got back in. Are you suggesting UKIP weren't using the out vote ? and he didn't suggest that the only way to clean up the UK's immigration problem was to leave the EU?

Whilst I believe a lot of people will put a lot of thought into this, I also think a lot of people will be influenced by single issues and not look at the broader picture and single issue voters are not representative of the general population.

Only one party promised an in/out referendum on Europe during the election and that party was not UKIP. As far as I can see the Tories reacted to the public feeling... which is increasingly anti-Europe. And I understand why. It's a big, costly, toothless, white elephant and we would be better without it.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Perhaps so but its the Tory purse that will pay for the up and coming fear campaigns re-leaving.

Actually I know a few MPs who intend to push the 'out' vote. And that Tory purse to which you refer is full of money donated by supporters... they get no funding from the Unions. The positive side of that is that they don't have to dance to the tune of the Unions.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Livia

Actually I know a few MPs who intend to push the 'out' vote. And that Tory purse to which you refer is full of money donated by supporters... they get no funding from the Unions. The positive side of that is that they don't have to dance to the tune of the Unions.

That wasn't my point. What was your point? Oh silly me, it was it to impress me wasn't it?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

That wasn't my point. What was your point? Oh silly me, it was it to impress me wasn't it?

You overestimate your impact, I'm afraid.

[Firewire]

in

[Cherie]

Not heard enough to convince me either way at the moment.


Question to the people who are already confirmed OUT voters, what happens to Europeans currently living in the UK and UK nationals living in Europe if we were to exit

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Not heard enough to convince me either way at the moment.

Question to the people who are already confirmed OUT voters, what happens to Europeans currently living in the UK and UK nationals living in Europe if we were to exit

That's a really important question that no one will attempt to answer because its too hard. Removing them (aside from being rather unfortunate for them) will leave businesses up **** creek and collapse the housing market to the point that 2009 would look like a boom year.

My guess is that existing employed residents would have the right to remain, because its the only sane option.

What would happen to ex-pats living and working in Europe is another issue that would have to be resolved. Selling up and moving back to an unaffordable (housing market) UK would be a nightmare that I'm sure none of them want to face.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

I'd vote to stay in in a referendum. The positives far outweigh any negatives, in my opinion.

Tell that to Greece, Portugal, Iceland, spain , Italy.....all bankrupted and controlled by the germans totally ....the greeks were even pressurised to buy billions more german tanks and weapons on credit as they were going bankrupt....the money they defaulted , bang overnight goes the biggest shipping industry in Europe....the entire thing is sick and totally anti economic and enslaves us for eternity to massive European government and massive corporate takeovers

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

Tell that to Greece, Portugal, Iceland, spain , Italy.....all bankrupted and controlled by the germans totally ....the greeks were even pressurised to buy billions more german tanks and weapons on credit as they were going bankrupt....the money they defaulted , bang overnight goes the biggest shipping industry in Europe....the entire thing is sick and totally anti economic and enslaves us for eternity to massive European government and massive corporate takeovers

But what do all those countries have in common? the euro. We kept hold of our sovereign currency which gives us a lot more leverage.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Honestly, I'd be extremely pissed off if I were pulled out of the EU by a bunch of anti-immigration ignorants who know nothing more than the few phrases Farage spouts. When I am older, I am hoping that I am able to study abroad (in an EU country) and possibly even consider migrating for the life experience. If my freedom to move is forcibly taken from me, that will piss me off to no end.

There are elements of the EU which I don't like - a non-directly elected president , and TTIP, just to name two of them. But that doesn't mean you have to cut off your nose to spite your face, within any governmental organisation you have to be mature and work to find agreements and fight for what you truly believe in. A lot of people dislike the way our House of Commons is run, shall we just walk away from that also? Of course you don't, that wouldn't benefit anyone. And it's the same for the EU. Seems to me that Euroscepticism is just a way to euphemism the fact that people are too lazy to look towards sensible reform an would rather just look at the issue in a very black-or-white way.

immigration is a minor problem , its low on the list of an infinite list of disasters at the EU

80,000 word of laws and rules and regulations that no one has even read
over 400 pages
strangling small businesses and strengthening massive corporate monopoly takeovers. ....
it favours the 1 controlling nation Germany (and Austria and france)
it enslaves us to corporations even more, it has widened the wealth gap even more, it has created endless tax loop holes for corporations and billionaires even more, it has wiped out entire industries in many nations including ours....it has a totally biased unlevel playing field, as we see with german energy prices 50% lower than ours,....even the rules are applied differently. how is german coal and steel booking? are they meeting the same costs and pollution limits? nope. they haven't even audited their accounts for 20 years....the waste, the debts, the corruption is staggering....why are America demanding we stay? because it suits their corporate interests. simple. where has our ship building, agriculture, fishing, manufacturing, car industry, steel, coal, copper, tin industries gone? we cant even dredge our own beaches anymore?

the wealth gap has grown enormously too and for those who preach about treating immigrants well, are you even aware how the eu is raping the coastlines of Africa for riches whilst at the same time creating a cartel so that the Africans cant even trade over here.

everytime one wants to do anything we have to run it by 30 countries and 500 million people first? its insane, whether we stay or go it will collapse and sink like the titanic anyway.

OUT

trading partners yes, but we will make our own laws thanks

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

That's a really important question that no one will attempt to answer because its too hard. Removing them (aside from being rather unfortunate for them) will leave businesses up **** creek and collapse the housing market to the point that 2009 would look like a boom year.

My guess is that existing employed residents would have the right to remain, because its the only sane option.

What would happen to ex-pats living and working in Europe is another issue that would have to be resolved. Selling up and moving back to an unaffordable (housing market) UK would be a nightmare that I'm sure none of them want to face.

That's it in a nutshell, as the referendum was initiated by the UK I doubt they would have any choice but to give anyone resident at the time of the election the right to remain in Britain, other countries won't have to bother. This is a question I asked when Scotland were voting to stay or go, no one voting to go could answer what would have happened to Scottish nationals living in England, Wale or NI in the event that the result was to leave the UK

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Cherie

That's it in a nutshell, as the referendum was initiated by the UK I doubt they would have any choice but to give anyone resident at the time of the election the right to remain in Britain, other countries won't have to bother. This is a question I asked when Scotland were voting to stay or go, no one voting to go could answer what would have happened to Scottish nationals living in England, Wale or NI in the event that the result was to leave the UK

people with the right visa and passports will stay. in the longer term, we will see controlled immigration to a degree. though tbh that's the least of my issues with the disastrous EU. In fact outside of hunting down terrorists immigration doesn't bother me at all.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

But what do all those countries have in common? the euro. We kept hold of our sovereign currency which gives us a lot more leverage.

Thank God we did and we didn't listen to the mass of pro EU fans from liberals and many from labour and plaed cymru and snp who were demanding we ditched the pound for the euro. the FACT the UK has created MORE JOBS THAN THE REST OF THE ENTIRE EUROPEAN UNION PUT TOGETHER IN THE PAST 5 YEARS REALLY TELLS YOU EVERYTHING.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by the truth

people with the right visa and passports will stay. in the longer term, we will see controlled immigration to a degree. though tbh that's the least of my issues with the disastrous EU. In fact outside of hunting down terrorists immigration doesn't bother me at all.

My point isn't really about immigration in, rather emigration out/ expats and what will happen to them?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The only reason we are having a referendum on Europe now is because of the rise of UKIP support before he was re-elected. It was merely Camerons sales pitch to ensure he got back in. Are you suggesting UKIP weren't using the out vote ? and he didn't suggest that the only way to clean up the UK's immigration problem was to leave the EU?

Whilst I believe a lot of people will put a lot of thought into this, I also think a lot of people will be influenced by single issues and not look at the broader picture and single issue voters are not representative of the general population.

what are you on about? people have been euro sceptical for 40 years? the entire thing is a mess...have you run businesses? have you spoken to truckers? fishermen and women? steelworkers? coal workers? factory workers? farmers and agricultural workers? shop keepers? the list is endless? they've absolutely crucified us and every other business person and industry outside of Germany and Austria and france

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Cherie

My point isn't really about immigration in, rather emigration out/ expats and what will happen to them?

nothing much will happen. there may be some tinkering with the benefits...when uk leaves we will still be trading partners and may still sign up to some treaties....but we wont be tied up by their laws anymore

[joeysteele]

David Cameron proposed to hold a referendum on the EU when it appeared the Conservatives were almost sure to be out in 2015.
It was more likely promised to hold off anger from the Euro sceptics in his own party after the rise in support for UKIP.

Now he has to hold it and he will now go down as the PM who delivered a referendum just as Labour's Harold Wilson did in 1975,putting to rights the wrong of Heath taking the UK into Europe without a referendum or election on the issue.

However,I applaud his new enthusiasm for the UKs membership of the EU now and for me it is simply ridiculous after all this time to have the UK walk away from it and bring disunity into play.
Nations should be coming together not moving further apart.
One of the many reasons I will always support staying in and do all I can to help persuade others to vote to stay in too.

This is not the 70s or 80s,it is not a time for the UK to be backward looking and I have yet to see a convincing Plan at all from anyone as to the UK's secured successful future after an exit.
Nothing at all of note or even fact as we have little idea even of what conditions and terms the EU would place on an exited UK too.
The only thing we do now is we would have to ask for one for sure.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

immigration is a minor problem , its low on the list of an infinite list of disasters at the EU

80,000 word of laws and rules and regulations that no one has even read
over 400 pages
strangling small businesses and strengthening massive corporate monopoly takeovers. ....
it favours the 1 controlling nation Germany (and Austria and france)
it enslaves us to corporations even more, it has widened the wealth gap even more, it has created endless tax loop holes for corporations and billionaires even more, it has wiped out entire industries in many nations including ours....it has a totally biased unlevel playing field, as we see with german energy prices 50% lower than ours,....even the rules are applied differently. how is german coal and steel booking? are they meeting the same costs and pollution limits? nope. they haven't even audited their accounts for 20 years....the waste, the debts, the corruption is staggering....why are America demanding we stay? because it suits their corporate interests. simple. where has our ship building, agriculture, fishing, manufacturing, car industry, steel, coal, copper, tin industries gone? we cant even dredge our own beaches anymore?

the wealth gap has grown enormously too and for those who preach about treating immigrants well, are you even aware how the eu is raping the coastlines of Africa for riches whilst at the same time creating a cartel so that the Africans cant even trade over here.

everytime one wants to do anything we have to run it by 30 countries and 500 million people first? its insane, whether we stay or go it will collapse and sink like the titanic anyway.

OUT

trading partners yes, but we will make our own laws thanks

I agree with a lot of that and that's why I'm presently stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Out of interest, what are your thoughts regarding human rights and the rule of law if we come out of the EU ? Would you etrust our present government and our future governments (whoever they may be) to be the guardians of our human rights?