Sexual abuse of a 5 month old baby

[InOne]

thats personal but no.

Well these people have parents too, and sometimes they are as shocked as anyone. Not all of them come from broken homes, which is a mistake people often make.

[Angus]

Until anyone in here says they have kids and wouldn't kill for their kids I'm not going to bother posting

It's no coincidence that all the ones who actually have children are of a like mind - it's oh so easy to be tolerant and reasonable when you have no emotional investment in the issue, or any experience of the feelings you have once you become a mum or dad. My eldest son who became a father himself a year ago, told me he had no idea he would feel the way he did, it was overpowering for him and he has told me that he would die for his son, and would never, ever let anyone hurt him. To me that is a normal feeling for any parent and is not something that you can explain or teach your children. They will feel it themselves when they have their own children, so there is no need for explanation. Like it or not, those that don't have children have absolutely NO idea of what that feels like. They can imagine it, but not actually feel it.

But what truly pisses me off is the naive moralising of people who have had little or no experience of real life but feel qualified to lecture me on ethical issues. Until they have suffered the terrible loss of a loved one at the hands of a lowlife piece of scum, they do not know how they would react. Unfortunately, some of us have already been faced with such a loss and know only too well.

And justice, by the way, is defined as fairness and equity in our dealings with others, therefore the punishment should fit the crime. If that equates to an eye for an eye, then so be it. The moment you try to interfere with that concept of fairness and equity by trying to bring other factors such as the deeply flawed Human Rights legislation into the mix, justice can no longer be done.

[setanta]

Dezzy, it really isn't about acting superior and it certainly isn't a copout.. As a mother, I would want anyone who seriously harmed my children dead. I can't help it, it's just how I feel. I think most, if not all parents would probably feel the same.

Yes, I'm aware of that Lee, and I'd feel exactly the same if it were anyone I loved that was harmed, but we'll get nowhere as a society if we hand out retribution in that manner, particularly since this problem wont go away with one Paedo killed by the relatives of the victim, you know? There's plenty more out there and are we to deal with all of our social taboos and criminals in that way?

[Tom4784]

thats personal but no.

Well isn't that hypocritical? You can't pick and choose when it comes to the law it's either all or nothing. You can't advocate violence but makes yourself immune from it's effects at the same time.

Make up your mind.

[Kerry]

Think I'll go and enjoy the rest of my night.....

[Mystic Mock]

Well these people have parents too, and sometimes they are as shocked as anyone. Not all of them come from broken homes, which is a mistake people often make.

still from a netural perspective i think these bastards deserve to die.

[InOne]

still from a netural perspective i think these bastards deserve to die.

Well seen as all these mothers keep going on about how they'd like to kill a peado or see one dead. Was wondering what they'd do if it was one of their own.

[setanta]

If the murderer is a murderer and is 100% PROVEN then I don't care if they are killed.

I think LIFE in prison for MOST offenders if the best option!!

You should watch a great documentary about how many errors in justice that have been made in the States throughout the years, but sure the innocent prisoners have already been executed. It happens. Anways, that's me going off on a tangent there.

[Kerry]

It's no coincidence that all the ones who actually have children are of a like mind - it's oh so easy to be tolerant and reasonable when you have no emotional investment in the issue, or any experience of the feelings you have once you become a mum or dad. My eldest son who became a father himself a year ago, told me he had no idea he would feel the way he did, it was overpowering for him and he has told me that he would die for his son, and would never, ever let anyone hurt him. To me that is a normal feeling for any parent and is not something that you can explain or teach your children. They will feel it themselves when they have their own children, so there is no need for explanation. Like it or not, those that don't have children have absolutely NO idea of what that feels like. They can imagine it, but not actually feel it.

But what truly pisses me off is the naive moralising of people who have had little or no experience of real life but feel qualified to lecture me on ethical issues. Until they have suffered the terrible loss of a loved one at the hands of a lowlife piece of scum, they do not know how they would react. Unfortunately, some of us have already been faced with such a loss and know only too well.

And justice, by the way, is defined as fairness and equity in our dealings with others, therefore the punishment should fit the crime. If that equates to an eye for an eye, then so be it. The moment you try to interfere with that concept of fairness and equity by trying to bring other factors such as the deeply flawed Human Rights legislation into the mix, justice can no longer be done.

Cheers.

I seriously don't mean to preach. But as you say, until you hold your baby. Nothing competes. And I'd love to see peoples posts here once they'd had kids. You'd give anything, everything for them. Well, most parents.

[Lee.]

Yes, I'm aware of that Lee, and I'd feel exactly the same if it were anyone I loved that was harmed, but we'll get nowhere as a society if we hand out retribution in that manner, particularly since this problem wont go away with one Paedo killed by the relatives of the victim, you know? There's plenty more out there and are we to deal with all of our social taboos and criminals in that way?

We're getting nowhere as a society as we are! It's just a joke! The whole justice system is a shambles!

[Beastie]

I agree they should never be allowed back into society yes. But think we should make use of them to help other kids in the future.

Yes. We need to get some answers then!!

I don't think we will. It is going to be an ongoing cycle......

A peedo commits a crime - a peedo sent to jail - a peedo released - the same peedo likely to re-offend!!

All the knowledge I have is that the peedo is in jail for LIFE so there is NO chance for that peedo to commit the crime again.

At the same time.. there will be another peedo out there.. doing something awful to another child.. or maybe even the same one :shocked:

Then yet.. the cycle continues.

At the end of the day.. the child who has been raped or whatever is unlucky.

The child needs more help after the tragic ordeal than the rapist does.... because the rapist will be living behind closed doors for the rest of their life anyway.. if the law was changed :sleep:

[Mystic Mock]

Well isn't that hypocritical? You can't pick and choose when it comes to the law it's either all or nothing. You can't advocate violence but makes yourself immune from it's effects at the same time.

Make up your mind.

if its a personal matter my views would go out the window,like if you have a child and he/she gets abused your views would go out of the window and if you say otherwise then your lying.

[InOne]

Yes. We need to get some answers then!!

I don't think we will. It is going to be an ongoing cycle......

A peedo commits a crime - a peedo sent to jail - a peedo released - the same peedo likely to re-offend!!

All the knowledge I have is that the peedo is in jail for LIFE so there is NO chance for that peedo to commit the crime again.

At the same time.. there will be another peedo out there.. doing something awful to another child.. or maybe even the same one :shocked:

Then yet.. the cycle continues.

At the end of the day.. the child who has been raped or whatever is unlucky.

The child needs more help after the tragic ordeal than the rapist does.... because the rapist will be living behind closed doors for the rest of their life anyway.. if the law was changed :sleep:

You're making it sound like the kid just gets left there to deal with it on their own. Of course they get loads of help to deal with it.

[Beastie]

I don't even understand why you'd want them dead. It's such a cop out, what if the child was murdered? Then the child and the murderer is dead and people start to forget about what that person did, least when their in jail it's not forgotton and their made to deal with it for the rest of their life. I agree sentences should mean life, but they shouldn't mean death.

Oh it will be remembered allright.......

[Tom4784]

But what truly pisses me off is the naive moralising of people who have had little or no experience of real life but feel qualified to lecture me on ethical issues. Until they have suffered the terrible loss of a loved one at the hands of a lowlife piece of scum, they do not know how they would react. Unfortunately, some of us have already been faced with such a loss and know only too well.

I wasn't aware you had an encyclopaedic knowledge of all our lives. Who are you to say if we've lived or suffered loss? I lost my uncle to a knifing in a churchyard yet did I want the murderer dead? NO. I felt incredible anger I won't deny that I still do now but the killer's death wouldn't have brought my uncle back and it wouldn't have eased my family's pain. He's still dead and we would still grieve.

How dare you make such assumptions on our lives, acting all superior to us when you know nothing of adversity we've faced in our lives.

I know how the law works and I know what it is to lose someone so don't you DARE tell me otherwise just because I don't believe in capital punishment.

[InOne]

I wasn't aware you had an encyclopaedic knowledge of all our lives. Who are you to say if we've lived or suffered loss? I lost my uncle to a knifing in a churchyard yet did I want the murderer dead? NO. I felt incredible anger I won't deny that I still do now but the killer's death wouldn't have brought my uncle back and it wouldn't have eased my family's pain. He's still dead and we would still grieve.

How dare you make such assumptions on our lives, acting all superior to us when you know nothing of adversity we've faced in our lives.

I know how the law works and I know what it is to lose someone so don't you DARE tell me otherwise just because I don't believe in capital punishment.

Well said.

[Lucy.]

Well said.

I concurr.

[Beastie]

You should watch a great documentary about how many errors in justice that have been made in the States throughout the years, but sure the innocent prisoners have already been executed. It happens. Anways, that's me going off on a tangent there.

Okay.. then in some cases.. okay capital punishment may be wrong.. but like I said.. LIFE IN PRISON sentences should be increased......

[Mystic Mock]

I wasn't aware you had an encyclopaedic knowledge of all our lives. Who are you to say if we've lived or suffered loss? I lost my uncle to a knifing in a churchyard yet did I want the murderer dead? NO. I felt incredible anger I won't deny that I still do now but the killer's death wouldn't have brought my uncle back and it wouldn't have eased my family's pain. He's still dead and we would still grieve.

How dare you make such assumptions on our lives, acting all superior to us when you know nothing of adversity we've faced in our lives.

I know how the law works and I know what it is to lose someone so don't you DARE tell me otherwise just because I don't believe in capital punishment.

well im surprised you aint agreeing with me and other posters on here considering you had a traumatic past.

[setanta]

Okay.. then in some cases.. okay capital punishment may be wrong.. but like I said.. LIFE IN PRISON sentences should be increased......

But sure you're backtracking now cuz a few posts ago you said that life imprisonment is draining the economy of much needed money, you know?

[Kerry]

Dezzy calm down. If we want sob stories I'd lost both my parents before I was 10. My Grandad too and only today one of my daughters school friends got knocked down! It was my mothers anniversary just a few days from my birthday which was yesterday and TBH I'm not feeling too good with my daughter in shock. But lets wallow huh?!?!

[Beastie]

But sure you're backtracking now cuz a few posts ago you said that life imprisonment is draining the economy of much needed money, you know?

No.. the rehabilitation!!! If we tested EVERY single person in hospital and that for their crimes of rape.. it is not worth it for every one of them!

I am not back tracking at all.

[Tom4784]

well im surprised you aint agreeing with me and other posters on here considering you had a traumatic past.

Why? Capital Punishment helps no one, it doesn't make the pain go away and it doesn't undo the damage. It just causes more.

[Tom4784]

Dezzy calm down. If we want sob stories I'd lost both my parents before I was 10. My Grandad too and only today one of my daughters school friends got knocked down! It was my mothers anniversary just a few days from my birthday which was yesterday and TBH I'm not feeling too good with my daughter in shock. But lets wallow huh?!?!

So it's okay for you to shut me down but when i've got a 'reason' to feel the way I do it's a sob story?

HYPOCRITES. The lot of you.

[Beastie]

Why? Capital Punishment helps no one, it doesn't make the pain go away and it doesn't undo the damage. It just causes more.

Not if it was the law though???? Crime would still be at the same rate I reckon! Just one less because they are not going to come out of jail or they are already dead.

[Tom4784]

I'm gonna take some time out, i'm extremely furious and I'm going to say something I regret.

[Mystic Mock]

So it's okay for you to shut me down but when i've got a 'reason' to feel the way I do it's a sob story?

HYPOCRITES. The lot of you.

i didnt say it was a sob story.

[Kerry]

So it's okay for you to shut me down but when i've got a 'reason' to feel the way I do it's a sob story?

HYPOCRITES. The lot of you.

See my first line. Calm down. I can empathise actually

[Kerry]

I'm gonna take some time out, i'm extremely furious and I'm going to say something I regret.

Dezzy I can empathise.

[Mystic Mock]

I'm gonna take some time out, i'm extremely furious and I'm going to say something I regret.

i think some death note could help you.:hugesmile:

[Lucy.]

It is completely unfair once again to shout out orders now it's telling Dezzy to calm down. Like you've done that the whole time you've been in this debate! He was only making a valid point.

[InOne]

Dezzy calm down. If we want sob stories I'd lost both my parents before I was 10. My Grandad too and only today one of my daughters school friends got knocked down! It was my mothers anniversary just a few days from my birthday which was yesterday and TBH I'm not feeling too good with my daughter in shock. But lets wallow huh?!?!

Dezzy made a valid point. Angus doesn't know anything about any of our lives and claims that anyones opinion who differs from hers doesn't have 'experience' in life. It wasn't about sob stories.

[setanta]

It is completely unfair once again to shout out orders now it's telling Dezzy to calm down. Like you've done that the whole time you've been in this debate! He was only making a valid point.

Agreed. He was perfectly calm and lucid in his comments.

[Kerry]

It is completely unfair once again to shout out orders now it's telling Dezzy to calm down. Like you've done that the whole time you've been in this debate! He was only making a valid point.

OK and I'm sorry. Tough debate thread I guess and I'm sorry to you too.

[Lee.]

Oh, this is a debate that could go round and round in circles for ever!

To summarise before I go to sleepyland: I think the justice system in this country sucks ass, I'm for the death sentence and jail sentences should be made tougher..

Oh and parenthood WILL change your opinions.

Night night Y'all :)

[Beastie]

Oh, this is a debate that could go round and round in circles for ever!

To summarise before I go to sleepyland: I think the justice system in this country sucks ass, I'm for the death sentence and jail sentences should be made tougher..

Oh and parenthood WILL change your opinions.

Night night Y'all :)

I agree!

[setanta]

Oh, this is a debate that could go round and round in circles for ever!

To summarise before I go to sleepyland: I think the justice system in this country sucks ass, I'm for the death sentence and jail sentences should be made tougher..

Oh and parenthood WILL change your opinions.

Night night Y'all :)

You agree with capital punishment? Wonder how many do in here. I don't anyway.

[Mystic Mock]

Oh, this is a debate that could go round and round in circles for ever!

To summarise before I go to sleepyland: I think the justice system in this country sucks ass, I'm for the death sentence and jail sentences should be made tougher..

Oh and parenthood WILL change your opinions.

Night night Y'all :)

good night.

[Kerry]

Thought Dezzy was a woman :blush:

[Mystic Mock]

Thought Dezzy was a woman :blush:

i dont know tbh.

[Kerry]

Dezzy made a valid point. Angus doesn't know anything about any of our lives and claims that anyones opinion who differs from hers doesn't have 'experience' in life. It wasn't about sob stories.

No one knows anything about anyones lives on here

[InOne]

No one knows anything about anyones lives on here

Exactly, so Angus shouldn't be one to judge who has had experience and who hasn't.

[Kerry]

Exactly, so Angus shouldn't be one to judge who has had experience and who hasn't.

So no one should have an opinion on a forum full stop

[Mystic Mock]

Exactly, so Angus shouldn't be one to judge who has had experience and who hasn't.

tbf i think shes going by how most people would act.

[InOne]

So no one should have an opinion on a forum full stop

Where did I say that?

[Lee.]

Angus talks sense..

Night night again :)

[InOne]

tbf i think shes going by how most people would act.

She can only go by how she would act.

[Angus]

The country would just flourish if we murdered anyone suspected of being a criminal now wouldn't it?

That's a disingenuous statement - who said anything about killing "suspected" criminals. How about confining punishment to "convicted" ones? I guarantee the country would indeed flourish if we cleared out the PROVEN murderers, rapists and paedophiles.

Since execution is no longer an option, how about actually locking them up and throwing away the key. In fact the shortness of sentences has less to do with the moralistic arguments of being compassionate blah blah blah, and more to do with the economics of keeping these criminals long term in jail. That's the bottom line, and why there is no morality in the judicial system. Criminals who have committed the most horrendous crimes are freed to re-offend because it costs too much to keep them locked up, and since extermination is not an option what else is there?

Not one dissenter on here has given any viable options.

[Kerry]

Where did I say that?

Look, I've apologized to Dezzy. Genuinely never want to upset people

[Mystic Mock]

That's a disingenuous statement - who said anything about killing "suspected" criminals. How about confining punishment to "convicted" ones? I guarantee the country would indeed flourish if we cleared out the PROVEN murderers, rapists and paedophiles.

Since execution is no longer an option, how about actually locking them up and throwing away the key. In fact the shortness of sentences has less to do with the moralistic arguments of being compassionate blah blah blah, and more to do with the economics of keeping these criminals long term in jail. That's the bottom line, and why there is no morality in the judicial system. Criminals who have committed the most horrendous crimes are freed to re-offend because it costs too much to keep them locked up, and since extermination is not an option what else is there?

Not one dissenter on here has given any viable options.

ive got to say your coming up with some class posts today angus58,but another option could be to chop there hands off.

[InOne]

Look, I've apologized to Dezzy. Genuinely never want to upset people

Well there was no need to get sarcastic with me. But whatever.

[Tom4784]

Right, sorry for blowing up, it wasn't very modlike of me.

At the end of the day I can't agree with capital punishment, it's not how I was raised and it's not what I believe in now I'm older. It doesn't heal any pain and it doesn't give closure it just spreads pain as even the criminals in a lot of cases have innocent parents and family.

To me it's just spreading the pain around.

That's my opinion and it's all I can say at the end of the day.

[Kerry]

Well there was no need to get sarcastic with me. But whatever.

I didn't :(

[Beastie]

Right, sorry for blowing up, it wasn't very modlike of me.

At the end of the day I can't agree with capital punishment, it's not how I was raised and it's not what I believe in now I'm older. It doesn't heal any pain and it doesn't give closure it just spreads pain as even the criminals in a lot of cases have innocent parents and family.

To me it's just spreading the pain around.

That's my opinion and it's all I can say at the end of the day.

The pain will always be there whether there is capital punishment or not.

A murderer.. the LEAST they should have is LIFE in prison!! And they are still better off than the person they actually killed.

[Mystic Mock]

Right, sorry for blowing up, it wasn't very modlike of me.

At the end of the day I can't agree with capital punishment, it's not how I was raised and it's not what I believe in now I'm older. It doesn't heal any pain and it doesn't give closure it just spreads pain as even the criminals in a lot of cases have innocent parents and family.

To me it's just spreading the pain around.

That's my opinion and it's all I can say at the end of the day.

theres no need to worry because when theres a debate people get really passionate.

[Kerry]

Right, sorry for blowing up, it wasn't very modlike of me.

At the end of the day I can't agree with capital punishment, it's not how I was raised and it's not what I believe in now I'm older. It doesn't heal any pain and it doesn't give closure it just spreads pain as even the criminals in a lot of cases have innocent parents and family.

To me it's just spreading the pain around.

That's my opinion and it's all I can say at the end of the day.


You're human. Mod or not

My emotions are running high this week.

[Mystic Mock]

tbh dezzy i thought i could have broken more rules than you on this thread.

[Tom4784]

The pain will always be there whether there is capital punishment or not.

A murderer.. the LEAST they should have is LIFE in prison!! And they are still better off than the person they actually killed.

The difference is that capital punishment affects a lot more people then imprisonment does. People underestimate how difficult and horrific prison can be.

[Kerry]

I think it's a 'touch a nerve' thread really. Always gonna get the blood pumping. Hopefully not one for grudges!

[Lucy.]

I think it's good that this has simmered down, be good to just forgive and forget I think. Least it's a good'un for brain stimulation haha.

[Mystic Mock]

The difference is that capital punishment affects a lot more people then imprisonment does. People underestimate how difficult and horrific prison can be.

oh yeah with there xbox and playstations.:joker:

[Beastie]

The difference is that capital punishment affects a lot more people then imprisonment does. People underestimate how difficult and horrific prison can be.

Then I would choose Life Imprisonment for them then after thinking about it all.......

[Kerry]

I think it's good that this has simmered down, be good to just forgive and forget I think. Least it's a good'un for brain stimulation haha.

Good when threads/people can do that

[Tom4784]

oh yeah with there xbox and playstations.:joker:

And other violent criminals that will attack others due to their own warped views of justice. Prison isn't as easy for most as it's made out to be in the media you know.

[Tom4784]

It's been a good topic really apart from the more rage-y moments :laugh:. As long as we can keep things from being personal when we can it's an interesting topic to debate.

[Mystic Mock]

And other violent criminals that will attack others due to their own warped views of justice. Prison isn't as easy for most as it's made out to be in the media you know.

have you been in prison dezzy?

[Beastie]

And other violent criminals that will attack others due to their own warped views of justice. Prison isn't as easy for most as it's made out to be in the media you know.

True. If maybe prison life is stayed the same and if it is not turned into something lenient. The short sentences are what is lenient already.

[Tom4784]

have you been in prison dezzy?

No but I know people who have and I've heard the horror stories and seen the scars. Prison isn't a holiday camp.

[Kerry]

It's been a good topic really apart from the more rage-y moments :laugh:. As long as we can keep things from being personal when we can it's an interesting topic to debate.

I officially slap my own hands.

[Tom4784]

Oh and to clear up any confusion I'm male :laugh:

[Kerry]

Oh and to clear up any confusion I'm male :laugh:

I thought you was a girl until tonight :joker:

[Tom4784]

I officially slap my own hands.

We all got heated, no one's to blame.

[Tom4784]

I thought you was a girl until tonight :joker:

Lmao oh dear.

[InOne]

It is an interesting topic and a good one to discuss. Glad it didn't get personal or anything. And at least it shows we all have emotions!

[Kerry]

Lmao oh dear.

Thought Dezzy was Denise. :joker:

Then again I was Jaye for long enough lol

[Mystic Mock]

It is an interesting topic and a good one to discuss. Glad it didn't get personal or anything. And at least it shows we all have emotions!

yes but nobody is evil on here really are they?

[Tom4784]

yes but nobody is evil on here really are they?

You can never be sure when it comes to the internet, never become lenient.

[InOne]

yes but nobody is evil on here really are they?

I doubt it lol

[InOne]

'Evil' is a pretty strong word though. Obviously you'll get odd people and weridos, but don't think the really bad ones would be on here

[Mystic Mock]

You can never be sure when it comes to the internet, never become lenient.

oh i know not to do that.

[Kerry]

'Evil' is a pretty strong word though. Obviously you'll get odd people and weridos, but don't think the really bad ones would be on here

I do weird. I'm not bad though lol

[InOne]

I do weird. I'm not bad though lol

I'm probs the same :tongue:

[Kerry]

I'm probs the same :tongue:

:)

[Mystic Mock]

i honestly thought at one point the thread would be closed because it was getting so heated.

[Kerry]

i honestly thought at one point the thread would be closed because it was getting so heated.

It did get a bit :D But it was sorted :)

[setanta]

i honestly thought at one point the thread would be closed because it was getting so heated.

Nah, rarely happens in debates, unless somebody gets too personal or insulting. And even then it doesn't usually end up with the thread being closed.

[Angus]

I wasn't aware you had an encyclopaedic knowledge of all our lives. Who are you to say if we've lived or suffered loss? I lost my uncle to a knifing in a churchyard yet did I want the murderer dead? NO. I felt incredible anger I won't deny that I still do now but the killer's death wouldn't have brought my uncle back and it wouldn't have eased my family's pain. He's still dead and we would still grieve.

How dare you make such assumptions on our lives, acting all superior to us when you know nothing of adversity we've faced in our lives.

I know how the law works and I know what it is to lose someone so don't you DARE tell me otherwise just because I don't believe in capital punishment.


And yet you presumed to understand how I felt and you seem to think you havethe right to tell me that the way I think about this issue is wrong and you are right. And no I don't think I would feel as you did, I would want justice, and yes it would make me feel better to know that the perpetrator was no longer living or breathing or able to hurt anyone else. The thought of them still enjoying life after depriving another of theirs would be repugnant and unjust to me. The problem I have with people who oppose capital punishment is that they don't really have any viable or effective alternatives to put on the table since statistics show that rehabilitation has a poor success rate and criminals are free to re-offend and destroy others' lives after a paltry few years in prison.

The fact you reacted differently to how I would have does not give you the moral high ground or entitle you to lecture me on how I ought to react. This whole argument started because I stated what I personally would do if anyone hurt my child and immediately I was jumped on and criticised for feeling that way. It seems a fair few share my view and a fair few support yours - but that's the nature of debate is it not?

The fact that I would want to see proper justice served does not make me an immoral person. I would be satisfied if the Judicial system was, in fact, based on justice and equity, but it is not. I have no problem if you are prepared to accept the pitiful justice meted out to murderers, that is your choice. But I will never feel that way - it goes against all notions of right and wrong and natural justice.

[setanta]

And yet you presumed to understand how I felt and you seem to think you havethe right to tell me that the way I think about this issue is wrong and you are right. And no I don't think I would feel as you did, I would want justice, and yes it would make me feel better to know that the perpetrator was no longer living or breathing or able to hurt anyone else. The thought of them still enjoying life after depriving another of theirs would be repugnant and unjust to me. The problem I have with people who oppose capital punishment is that they don't really have any viable or effective alternatives to put on the table since statistics show that rehabilitation has a poor success rate and criminals are free to re-offend and destroy others' lives after a paltry few years in prison.

The fact you reacted differently to how I would have does not give you the moral high ground or entitle you to lecture me on how I ought to react. This whole argument started because I stated what I personally would do if anyone hurt my child and immediately I was jumped on and criticised for feeling that way. It seems a fair few share my view and a fair few support yours - but that's the nature of debate is it not?

The fact that I would want to see proper justice served does not make me an immoral person. I would be satisfied if the Judicial system was, in fact, based on justice and equity, but it is not. I have no problem if you are prepared to accept the pitiful justice meted out to murderers, that is your choice. But I will never feel that way - it goes against all notions of right and wrong and natural justice.

I think it really boils down to whether or not you believe that capital punishment is a viable solution to the problems in society, and I don't really. That's the crux of the matter.

[Mystic Mock]

I think it really boils down to whether or not you believe that capital punishment is a viable solution to the problems in society, and I don't really. That's the crux of the matter.

i think you would see crime rate dropping alot.

[setanta]

i think you would see crime rate dropping alot.

Hasn't happened in the States.

[Mystic Mock]

Hasn't happened in the States.

because they are a much bigger country than the uk and there land of the free policy dosent help them either.

[Angus]

It did get a bit :D But it was sorted :)

I don't see how such an issue can be discussed without it being highly charged since it is a very emotive subject. What it has thrown up is the diametrically opposed views - there is no middle ground really. Regardless of whether or not capital punishment is a deterrent (which I believe it is), what is wrong with the concept of natural justice, or an eye for an eye? That is the meaning of justice for goodness sakes. How have we gone from one extreme to another in a few short years, to the extent that criminals have more rights than victims in some cases?

[Kerry]

The States is massive. You can't possibly compare the two

[setanta]

because they are a much bigger country than the uk and there land of the free policy dosent help them either.

I really thinks that irrelevant to be honest with you because I'm sure there's other countries with capital punishment who haven't seen a dramatic drop in killings when compared to countries who continue with life sentences.

[Tom4784]

And yet you presumed to understand how I felt and you seem to think you havethe right to tell me that the way I think about this issue is wrong and you are right. And no I don't think I would feel as you did, I would want justice, and yes it would make me feel better to know that the perpetrator was no longer living or breathing or able to hurt anyone else. The thought of them still enjoying life after depriving another of theirs would be repugnant and unjust to me. The problem I have with people who oppose capital punishment is that they don't really have any viable or effective alternatives to put on the table since statistics show that rehabilitation has a poor success rate and criminals are free to re-offend and destroy others' lives after a paltry few years in prison.

The fact you reacted differently to how I would have does not give you the moral high ground or entitle you to lecture me on how I ought to react. This whole argument started because I stated what I personally would do if anyone hurt my child and immediately I was jumped on and criticised for feeling that way. It seems a fair few share my view and a fair few support yours - but that's the nature of debate is it not?

The fact that I would want to see proper justice served does not make me an immoral person. I would be satisfied if the Judicial system was, in fact, based on justice and equity, but it is not. I have no problem if you are prepared to accept the pitiful justice meted out to murderers, that is your choice. But I will never feel that way - it goes against all notions of right and wrong and natural justice.

I never told you how you should react, I just gave my own opinion on the matter and from my own experiences. I never forced my opinion down your throat I just debated your opinion like you did mine. The only time I truly took exception was that whole parent business and your reliance and telling us that we could never have a handle on the siuation because we aren't parents. I didn't like that and I still don't.

I believe sentences need to be made longer as I agree that sometimes they are lenient but the equity thing just leads to an eye for an eye which I believe in the end doesn't help anyone. You have every right to disagree of course but that's my opinion.

[Kerry]

I don't see how such an issue can be discussed without it being highly charged since it is a very emotive subject. What it has thrown up is the diametrically opposed views - there is no middle ground really. Regardless of whether or not capital punishment is a deterrent (which I believe it is), what is wrong with the concept of natural justice, or an eye for an eye? That is the meaning of justice for goodness sakes. How have we gone from one extreme to another in a few short years, to the extent that criminals have more rights than victims in some cases?

You misunderstand me. I believe in an eye for an eye. If someone harmed my daughter I'd bloody kill them. But I don't want to argue about it.

[Angus]

I think it really boils down to whether or not you believe that capital punishment is a viable solution to the problems in society, and I don't really. That's the crux of the matter.

Well since the Judiciary does not invoke the full force of the law, ie life should mean life, is it any surprise that people want this scum removed from society one way or another? If proper sentences were handed down, and adhered to, it would be justice, but as things stand there is none.

[Kerry]

Well since the Judiciary does not invoke the full force of the law, ie life should mean life, is it any surprise that people want this scum removed from society one way or another? If proper sentences were handed down, and adhered to, it would be justice, but as things stand there is none.

Have to admit I'm sick of a life sentence meaning 6 years and suchlike

[Mystic Mock]

Well since the Judiciary does not invoke the full force of the law, ie life should mean life, is it any surprise that people want this scum removed from society one way or another? If proper sentences were handed down, and adhered to, it would be justice, but as things stand there is none.

this.

[Mystic Mock]

Have to admit I'm sick of a life sentence meaning 6 years and suchlike

me to.

[Angus]

You misunderstand me. I believe in an eye for an eye. If someone harmed my daughter I'd bloody kill them. But I don't want to argue about it.

No I didn't misunderstand your post - I agreed with it.

[setanta]

Well since the Judiciary does not invoke the full force of the law, ie life should mean life, is it any surprise that people want this scum removed from society one way or another? If proper sentences were handed down, and adhered to, it would be justice, but as things stand there is none.

Nah, I'm sorry, I can't agree with sentencing people to death because there'll always be one innocent person executed for every 10 or so criminals and I can't accept that. Plus, I'm against the killing of another human being. Let the families of the victims pull the trigger and live with the conseqences.

[Kerry]

No I didn't misunderstand your post - I agreed with it.

Oh OK sorry. Being dopey as ever

[Kerry]

Nah, I'm sorry, I can't agree with sentencing people to death because there'll always be one innocent person executed for every 10 or so criminals and I can't accept that. Plus, I'm against the killing of another human being. Let the families of the victims pull the trigger and live with the conseqences.

You've just totally contradicted yourself

[setanta]

You've just totally contradicted yourself

I actually haven't. I'm asking if the families would push the button. It's a fair comment.

[Kerry]

I actually haven't. I'm asking if the families would push the button. It's a fair comment.

The button?

[setanta]

The button?

Whatever, the button, the trigger, the lever... whatever.

[Tom4784]

The button?

Trigger/Needle/ Electric chair button ETC I think. He's asking if they could do the deed themselves.

[Kerry]

Trigger/Needle/ Electric chair button ETC I think. He's asking if they could do the deed themselves.

Oh I see

[setanta]

I didn't understand. I'm a dope. Get your head out of your bottom

You still haven't answered.

[Tom4784]

Come on guys let's stick to the topic. *puts mod hat on*

[Kerry]

You still haven't answered.

To?

[setanta]

To?

Are you being serious? To killing the criminal yourself.

[Kerry]

Are you being serious? To killing the criminal yourself.

If someone hurt my child I'd do it with my bare hands

[setanta]

If someone hurt my child I'd do it with my bare hands

After a trial by jury and in front of your family and friends?

[Kerry]

After a trial by jury and in front of your family and friends?

Do I need to repeat myself? If someone harmed my baby They would not survive. Sorry if your parents don't feel the same about you

[Kerry]

I seriously can't understand why anyone would not protect or die for their children

[setanta]

Do I need to repeat myself? If someone harmed my baby They would not survive. Sorry if your parents don't feel the same about you

It's nothing about that... it's pre-meditated murder in my eyes, and I couldn't do it in front of my kids or family. That would teach them nothing except to not value life and to embrace revenge.

[Kerry]

It's nothing about that... it's pre-meditated murder in my eyes, and I couldn't do it in front of my kids or family. That would teach them nothing except to not value life and to embrace revenge.

I'm talking about if I walked in and someone HAD harmed my baby. No premeditation at all. If she had already been harmed.

[setanta]

I'm talking about if I walked in and someone HAD harmed my baby. No premeditation at all. If she had already been harmed.

Chances are that wouldn't happen and he or she would be caught, tried and then sentence to death, with you having to execute them.

[Kerry]

Chances are that wouldn't happen and he or she would be caught, tried and then sentence to death, with you having to execute them.

Oh for heavens sake, don't be silly. I'm saying if anyone hurt my kid there'd be no stopping me. Nothing to do with the before

[Angus]

Nah, I'm sorry, I can't agree with sentencing people to death because there'll always be one innocent person executed for every 10 or so criminals and I can't accept that. Plus, I'm against the killing of another human being. Let the families of the victims pull the trigger and live with the conseqences.

But that would never happen because they themselves would then be prosecuted for murder. I don't know if you have ever seen the film Lady Vengeance but it dealt with the issue of justice meted out to a paedophile who had killed several children. The end scene where each family member stabbed the paedophile once was powerful, since none of them knew whose blow had actually killed him, and their complicity in the deed guaranteed them protection from discovery.

The issue of killing another human being is one I have pondered on a philosophical level in the past and I came to the conclusion that I could see myself doing so in self defence for example, and in a situation where a close family member such as my child were being threatened or harmed. But what we THINK we might do isn't necessarily what we ACTUALLY do and unless and until you are confronted with such a dilemma it is impossible to be sure you would go through with it. In any event something like a lethal injection would be my choice, quick and painless and far more humane than the treatment the murderer probably meted out to their victim.

[setanta]

But that would never happen because they themselves would then be prosecuted for murder. I don't know if you have ever seen the film Lady Vengeance but it dealt with the issue of justice meted out to a paedophile who had killed several children. The end scene where each family member stabbed the paedophile once was powerful, since none of them knew whose blow had actually killed him, and their complicity in the deed guaranteed them protection from discovery.

The issue of killing another human being is one I have pondered on a philosophical level in the past and I came to the conclusion that I could see myself doing so in self defence for example, and in a situation where a close family member such as my child were being threatened or harmed. But what we THINK we might do isn't necessarily what we ACTUALLY do and unless and until you are confronted with such a dilemma it is impossible to be sure you would go through with it. In any event something like a lethal injection would be my choice, quick and painless and far more humane than the treatment the murderer probably meted out to their victim.

But could you push the button, that's what I'm asking?

[Kerry]

Daren't even bloody answer now as a parent

[Angus]

I seriously can't understand why anyone would not protect or die for their children

Again, I'm with you - but you'll never get some to understand it.

[Kerry]

Again, I'm with you - but you'll never get some to understand it.

I'm gobsmacked others don't understand but I guess they won't until they have kids. Upset we're alientated if we do

[Angus]

But could you push the button, that's what I'm asking?

Oh yes, you have to push a button to administer the injection, no hardship at all. Pity there aren't any Dexters around to mete out natural justice to fellow murderers and abusers. OT a bit, but what a fantastic notion, a serial killer with a moral compass!

[Kerry]

Think I'll head to the 4am Club before bed. Bit more light hearted!

[setanta]

Oh yes, you have to push a button to administer the injection, no hardship at all. Pity there aren't any Dexters around to mete out natural justice to fellow murderers and abusers. OT a bit, but what a fantastic notion, a serial killer with a moral compass!

I haven't actually watched that show yet, but nah, couldn't ever push the button myself, especially if I had kids.

[Kerry]

I haven't actually watched that show yet, but nah, couldn't ever push the button myself, especially if I had kids.

You'll put your life on the line when you have kids Jimmy

[Angus]

I'm gobsmacked others don't understand but I guess they won't until they have kids. Upset we're alientated if we do

If you read through this whole thread you'll see I'm public enemy number one for daring to suggest that you have to be a parent to fully understand where we're coming from on this issue. Apparently,according to some teenagers and other FMs,(coincidentally childless ones) we're both wrong:rolleyes:

[setanta]

You'll put your life on the line when you have kids Jimmy

That's totally different though. I'd lie across a road for any of my family, no question about it, but to kill someone in front of them in cold blood like that... nah, not for me.

Plus could you imagine the phonecalls you'd get, "nah Paul, can't meet you for lunch cuz I'm away to kill a murderer today. How about a few pints later on?" Nah, too mental for me.

[Kerry]

If you read through this whole thread you'll see I'm public enemy number one for daring to suggest that you have to be a parent to fully understand where we're coming from on this issue. Apparently,according to some teenagers and other FMs,(coincidentally childless ones) we're both wrong:rolleyes:

Don't worry about it too much. Everyone seems to be the enemy at some point

[Kerry]

That's totally different though. I'd lie across a road for any of my family, no question about it, but to kill someone in front of them in cold blood like that... nah, not for me.

Plus could you imagine the phonecalls you'd get, "nah Paul, can't meet you for lunch cuz I'm away to kill a murderer today. How about a few pints later on?" Nah, too mental for me.

Who said I'd kill anyone infront of my family?

[setanta]

Who said I'd kill anyone infront of my family?

That's what happens at executions. Witnesses and all of that.

[Kerry]

That's what happens at executions. Witnesses and all of that.

Not if they don't want to be there

[Kerry]

Seriously, no one want a laugh in 4am for a bit?

[setanta]

Not if they don't want to be there

They'd still know that you killed someone, as would all of your friends. That's bound to have an effect on people.

[Kerry]

They'd still know that you killed someone, as would all of your friends. That's bound to have an effect on people.

Well it's not here so no use talking about it

[setanta]

Well it's not here so no use talking about it

But it's the logical conclusion to a debate about capital punishment, particularly when people start to personalize it, that's all.

[Kerry]

But it's the logical conclusion to a debate about capital punishment, particularly when people start to personalize it, that's all.

I can't say anything other than if someone killed my child I'd want them dead

[Kazanne]

Why? in fairness she's done nothing but deride me and others throughout the topic and used the kids as an excuse to do so, Shaun said it the best when he said being a mother doesn't instantly make you a genius on the subject or more entitled to an opinion the people without.

But when something terrible happens in your family,IT DOES.

[Angus]

But when something terrible happens in your family,IT DOES.

Thanks for support Kazanne, but I'm not that concerned about the opinions of the sort of people who can show compassion and forgiveness towards scum who commit the vilest of crimes, but display none of those noble and moralistic attitudes towards the victims' parents/families who quite rightly demand proper and equitable justice. Most of the time they fail to get justice because of the perverse concern for the rights, feelings and sensibilities of the criminal; rights which are placed above the rights of parents/families to see justice done. When it isn't done, it is like that child or loved one's life is diminished and less worthy than that of the person who took it. I don't find their attitude noble, moral or progressive, but just plain misguided and self indulgent.

The Human Rights Legislation is hugely flawed because as far as I'm concerned rights are not God given, they are commensurate with responsibilities towards humanity. If criminals choose to break the law to harm others, they should lose the right to invoke the law to protect themselves. You cannot have it both ways. The Act has been hugely abused by wrongdoers - what about a child's right to grow up in a society free of the risk of molestation, abuse, neglect and murder, and the right of a parent to see justice served on any scum who harmed their child?

[Angus]

But it's the logical conclusion to a debate about capital punishment, particularly when people start to personalize it, that's all.

It is ridiculous to expect anyone who has lost a child to come to a "logical" conclusion in a debate on capital punishment. There are some people who can accept the crap justice meted out to murderers, rapists and paedophiles but I'm certainly not one of them, and I have no intention of justifying myself to anyone.

[joeysteele]

I slept on this debate and what a great debate it is, of course there are passionate views on all sides and I can see InOnes arguments too.
My firm respect on this thread goes to Angus58 and kazane who have made soild, points all the time even in the face of hostility at times. but I understand the emotions this will enrage in others too who take a differing view.

I know the word evil is considered a wrong word to use as to people, but I feel it is the only word to describe anyone who abuses a child.I think that abuse,which often also ends in the death of a child too remember,is one that can only be termed evil and the full weight of the law should be piled on the abuser.
I am against capital punishment in the main but I cannot comprehend the rotten minds that are into child abuse.so for me something more severe does need to be done to deal with these people(I use the word people loosely).

My only fear of capital punishment is that if someone knows if caught,that they are likely to face a death penalty,then it is likely they will kill the child they are abusing in order to try to get away with it, especially so if the child could identify them,thinking on the lines they had nothing to lose by killing the child. Punishment though needs to be different and more unpleasant.

I also have to say what brilliant contributions from jedward fever on this too, he is only 14 and his knowledge on so many issues are amazing, his family should be very proud of him and he has talked more sense in this debate than many others who are certainly older than him. How great to know someone like jedward fever is also part of the future of this Country. Superb reasoning from you jedward fever. Very impressive and right.

Great debate, an emotive issue and I still stand totally alongside kazanne and Angus58 in their views.

[Angus]

Don't worry about it too much. Everyone seems to be the enemy at some point

Oh, I'm not worried about it at all - I'm not about to apologise for having strong opinions about a subject close to my heart, I'm more baffled by the dispassion evident in some of the posts on here.

[Angus]

I slept on this debate and what a great debate it is, of course there are passionate views on all sides and I can see InOnes arguments too.
My firm respect on this thread goes to Angus58 and kazane who have made soild, points all the time even in the face of hostility at times. but I understand the emotions this will enrage in others too who take a differing view.

I know the word evil is considered a wrong word to use as to people, but I feel it is the only word to describe anyone who abuses a child.I think that abuse,which often also ends in the death of a child too remember,is one that can only be termed evil and the full weight of the law should be piled on the abuser.
I am against capital punishment in the main but I cannot comprehend the rotten minds that are into child abuse.so for me something more severe does need to be done to deal with these people(I use the word people loosely).

My only fear of capital punishment is that if someone knows if caught,that they are likely to face a death penalty,then it is likely they will kill the child they are abusing in order to try to get away with it, especially so if the child could identify them,thinking on the lines they had nothing to lose by killing the child. Punishment though needs to be different and more unpleasant.

I also have to say what brilliant contributions from jedward fever on this too, he is only 14 and his knowledge on so many issues are amazing, his family should be very proud of him and he has talked more sense in this debate than many others who are certainly older than him. How great to know someone like jedward fever is also part of the future of this Country. Superb reasoning from you jedward fever. Very impressive and right.

Great debate, an emotive issue and I still stand totally alongside kazanne and Angus58 in their views.

Yes, it is a highly emotive issue and it's not surprising that there are strongly held views on both sides of the argument. It got quite heated at one point, but on the other hand it would have been strange if it had not.

I, too, am impressed by jedward fever's grasp of points made and his ability to form his own opinions about such important issues at such a young age. I find his attitude and comments far more mature than those of some on here.

To think the whole argument kicked off because I dared to state that IF the justice system were to fail me, I would not let it rest there, I would do all in my power to ensure the perpetrator was punished! How else are we to get the government to address the imbalance between the rights of criminals and victims' families if people just sit back and accept the status quo. Until proper and appropriate sentences are handed down to criminals, our judicial system will continue to betray law abiding citizens, and allow criminals to commit dreadful crimes for which they know they will not have to pay a corresponding penalty.

[joeysteele]

You are completely right Angus58 and as kazanne confirmed a saying I particularly like that I quoted which went alone the lines of 'for evil to thrive,good people just have to sit back and do nothing'.

You set off I think one of the best debates I have come across on here since joining,but it isn't a half baked debate, it is an issue you believe in and all you are really demanding is the right punishments and also the recognition of what a vile act this is.

I just think to myself,as I see young Children with their parents, my own Nephews and Nieces and think. how can anyone do anything to harm them, what rotten element is in the heads of adults and indeed anyone that decide to abuse a child this way.

Just thinking about it is sickening and I dare bet everyone, if ever their child or a child in their family or even a child they knew was abused this way, they would be saying the same as you completely.
Really, I think this debate and this thread is one of the best ever on here in my time on the forum.
I am also glad you agree as to jedward fever, he does have a great attitude and maturity on lots of sensitive issues on here.

[Kazanne]

I cannot believe Jedward Fever is just 14,what an intelligent young lad he is,he has put to shame some of his fellow posters to shame,with his grasp of humanity and his views on things,I knew he had a good head on him as soon as he announced Ben his fave housemate,lol,so for you Jedward,well done,your parents have done a great job with you,such a shame there are not more teenages around like you,I may not be posting too much now,cant be doing with moderators favouring their 'mates' and childish immature posts,but I have met some great posters here they know who they are:-))Think I will head to the adults forum for a while.

[joeysteele]

kazanne, it will be very sad if you are not posting on here,I doubt that I have disagreed with anything much you have said, I have said all you added as to jedward fever long before this debate so I totally agree with you too on that one as well. He is an amazing young man.

Please keep enlightening us with your views kazanne,this debate did spark a lot of passion and different emotions and thoughts but overall its clear who really made the valid and sensible comments as opposed to those who may not have thought carefully enough about it

The innocence of Children must never be violated,(in truth I doubt anyone would disagree with that), so if it is, I for one have no sympathy for the 'vile' abuser/s and I also make no apology for that stance either.

They had no respect or showed any respect for the child they abused, equally so no respect of any kind should then be shown to the 'vile' abuser/s.

[Angus]

I think it would be better to study the serious offenders. Find out what makes them who they are. What triggers them and what made them make the leap from thinking about it of looking at it to actually doing it. This way we could pick up the early warning signs from kids who act strangely or young adults. Instead of killing someone, use them to possibly save more children from harm in the future, and intervene early if someone looks to be going that wau.



I agree with this, but the social services in this country are not up to the job, frequently leaving at risk children in the custody of useless and sometimes dangerous parents.

On the thread about the toddler being taped to the wall a lot of immature posters thought it funny to make jokes at the expense of that poor child. Now THAT sort of reaction to me is odd and inappropriate on what is clearly a Serious Debates forum, and IMO explains a lot about those people's mindsets. Ridiculing something so vile, or attempting to make light of it, merely desensitises people to its seriousness. That child, if left with parents who could do such a thing to him, is a prime candidate to grow up extremely disturbed and angry. Sadly we are now living with the results of decades of dreadful parenting and it's only going to get worse.

[joeysteele]

The above 2 comments from InOne and Angus58, really sum up this issue and debate.
One holds a possible solution to at least having some means of preventing this abuse of Children and the other highlights the consequences of just doing nothing as sadly most officialdom seems to do at present.

Some incredilble posts on this issue near all night, hopefully will make people think.

[setanta]

It is ridiculous to expect anyone who has lost a child to come to a "logical" conclusion in a debate on capital punishment. There are some people who can accept the crap justice meted out to murderers, rapists and paedophiles but I'm certainly not one of them, and I have no intention of justifying myself to anyone.

Funny, I would have expected logic to be an important part of any serious debate, particularly when the killing of another person, be he/she guilty or not, can have huge repercussions on everyone that's touched by it and let me tell you - killing never heals wounds.

[joeysteele]

Logic shouldn't be the issue, the 'rights' of the abused children, who likely could not speak for themselves or defend themselves,even more so if they were killed in the process or after the abuse,is what is the important and the overriding need here.

Its not just about logic, its about justice and right,but justice is not done with a few years in prison, or tagging etc.

[Tom4784]

Funny, I would have expected logic to be an important part of any serious debate, particularly when the killing of another person, be he/she guilty or not, can have huge repercussions on everyone that's touched by it and let me tell you - killing never heals wounds.

Exactly, and the idea to kill to prevent crimes is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Whos' to say a criminal won't re-offend? Who's right is it to make a snap decision on someone's future when they know nothing of it? Imprisonment's the way to go, like I've said throughout the topic. We MUST be better then the criminals we punish.

[Tom4784]

Logic shouldn't be the issue, the 'rights' of the abused children, who likely could not speak for themselves or defend themselves,even more so if they were killed in the process or after the abuse,is what is the important and the overriding need here.

Its not just about logic, its about justice and right,but justice is not done with a few years in prison, or tagging etc.

Of course it's about logic, if the law system was based on anything but logic and facts then it'd be abused left right and center and there'd be chaos as anyone could justify any action. The Law has to be black and white and it has to be cold and impartial otherwise there's no point in it, We might as well live in anarchy.

[setanta]

Logic shouldn't be the issue, the 'rights' of the abused children, who likely could not speak for themselves or defend themselves,even more so if they were killed in the process or after the abuse,is what is the important and the overriding need here.

Its not just about logic, its about justice and right,but justice is not done with a few years in prison, or tagging etc.

I never said it was, but what I'm trying to convey is how killing never resolves the ills of society; it merely adds to them.

[Niamh.]

Exactly, and the idea to kill to prevent crimes is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Whos' to say a criminal won't re-offend? Who's right is it to make a snap decision on someone's future when they know nothing of it? Imprisonment's the way to go, like I've said throughout the topic. We MUST be better then the criminals we punish.

I agree but incases of paedophiles I don't think they should ever be released. Rehabilitation is great in theory but in reality the only way to tell if a person has been rehabilitated is to send them back into to society and see if they offend again which when it comes to innocent childrens safety is not good enough imo.

[setanta]

Of course it's about logic, if the law system was based on anything but logic and facts then it'd be abused left right and center and there'd be chaos as anyone could justify any action. The Law has to be black and white and it has to be cold and impartial otherwise there's no point in it, We might as well live in anarchy.

Exactly. It would be a circus.

[Lee.]

To me, if a person is guilty of a horrendous crime (and is 100%, without any doubt, guilty) then I have absolutely no qualms at all about that persons life being taken from him/her. May sound callous, but that's how I feel.
I'm not saying I could actually "push the button" or whatever but if I thought that they may feel just a moment of terror ar fear, the same as they inflicted on somebody else, then nah, I'm afraid I can't be against capital punishment.

[setanta]

Exactly, and the idea to kill to prevent crimes is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Whos' to say a criminal won't re-offend? Who's right is it to make a snap decision on someone's future when they know nothing of it? Imprisonment's the way to go, like I've said throughout the topic. We MUST be better then the criminals we punish.

Nobody is, and quite often the offenders come from damaged homes or have an imbalance in their brains, you know? I don't believe anyone is born evil.

[setanta]

To me, if a person is guilty of a horrendous crime (and is 100%, without any doubt, guilty) then I have absolutely no qualms at all about that persons life being taken from him/her. May sound callous, but that's how I feel.
I'm not saying I could actually "push the button" or whatever but if I thought that they may feel just a moment of terror ar fear, the same as they inflicted on somebody else, then nah, I'm afraid I can't be against capital punishment.

I'm sorry, but if you can't push the button yourself then I don't know what you're talking about.

[Lee.]

I'm sorry, but if you can't push the button yourself then I don't know what you're talking about.

What I'm talking about is I would have no problem with someone being sentenced to death.. none whatsoever.

If it were a crime that affected me like one of my children being harmed/hurt/murdered, then yes, I could push the button.. very very willingly!

[MissKittyFantastico]

Am very late adding my thoughts to this debate (a very good one may I add) and I have read through the thread and agree and disagree with some comments.

For the record I am not a parent, and God only knows how I would feel if something happened to my child if I did have one, all I can base my feelings on is how I react when I hear of cases of children being abused and murdered and it does provoke very very strong feelings of wanting to exact some sort of revenge, so I can empathise with how parents of children who have said such terrible things happen must feel.

However I don't agree that capital punishment is the answer. As others have said it doesn't take away the pain and it doesn't bring back the child that has been abused/murdered. My personal feeling is that I would want the offender locked up and the key thrown away, particularly in the cases of child abuse and peadophilia, so that other children are protected. People do need to remember/realise though that paedophilia is an ILLNESS, people don't CHOOSE to be that way and I agree with what Joe said about more studies being done to try and perhaps find some kind of cure, it may not be possible, but I think we need to try.

The main problem lies in this country in the fact that life does not mean life, and prisons are too cushy these days. I dont agree that taking away someone's freedom is punishment enough when in a lot of cases offenders have a better quality of life IN prison than they do out of it. You hear cases of people reoffending for that simple reason.

It's the justice system that's at fault here, but I don't think capital punishment is the route to go down to fix things. Two wrongs don't make a right and although I'm sure my initial reaction if something happened to a loved one of mine would be to want to kill person responsible and believe me if I was there at the time I would die to protect one of my own, I just don't believe that murder after the event is the answer.

[setanta]

What I'm talking about is I would have no problem with someone being sentenced to death.. none whatsoever.

If it were a crime that affected me like one of my children being harmed/hurt/murdered, then yes, I could push the button.. very very willingly!

And you could live with that? I couldn't.

[Niamh.]

And you could live with that? I couldn't.

maybe you'd feel different if you had kids. I could very easily kill some one who abused my kids.

[Lee.]

And you could live with that? I couldn't.

To be honest I could live with that easier than I could live with anything happening to my children.

[setanta]

To be honest I could live with that easier than I could live with anything happening to my children.

I'm talking about in the execution room, and in cold blood. Nah, that would have such an effect on you.

[MissKittyFantastico]

maybe you'd feel different if you had kids. I could very easily kill some one who abused my kids.

But then you would be a murderer, do you think you or your kids could live with that knowledge for the rest of your lives?

Like I said I can understand why a parent would feel that way, but actually taking another person's life, do you think that's the answer in the grander scheme of things?

[Tom4784]

But when something terrible happens in your family,IT DOES.

By your logic, from what we know of each other (which is very little) then I should be the most knowledgeable in this subject because my family has been a victim of violent crime. Is that right? Or does that rule only apply to you?

It's a silly statement to make as well as hugely offensive and pretentious to all but yourself.

Thanks for support Kazanne, but I'm not that concerned about the opinions of the sort of people who can show compassion and forgiveness towards scum who commit the vilest of crimes, but display none of those noble and moralistic attitudes towards the victims' parents/families who quite rightly demand proper and equitable justice. Most of the time they fail to get justice because of the perverse concern for the rights, feelings and sensibilities of the criminal; rights which are placed above the rights of parents/families to see justice done. When it isn't done, it is like that child or loved one's life is diminished and less worthy than that of the person who took it. I don't find their attitude noble, moral or progressive, but just plain misguided and self indulgent.

The Human Rights Legislation is hugely flawed because as far as I'm concerned rights are not God given, they are commensurate with responsibilities towards humanity. If criminals choose to break the law to harm others, they should lose the right to invoke the law to protect themselves. You cannot have it both ways. The Act has been hugely abused by wrongdoers - what about a child's right to grow up in a society free of the risk of molestation, abuse, neglect and murder, and the right of a parent to see justice served on any scum who harmed their child?

I know a lot about how the victim's family feels in these situations Angus so I resent the first paragraph completely, just because I'm not bloodthirsty about it doesn't make me misguided. Violence won't heal a broken family and Capital Punishment will just lead to another family grieving and I wouldn't inflict that on my worst enemy. Revenge doesn't make the pain go away.

I agree that the Human Rights Legislation is flawed like all things in life but your solution isn't any better.

[Niamh.]

But then you would be a murderer, do you think you or your kids could live with that knowledge for the rest of your lives?

Like I said I can understand why a parent would feel that way, but actually taking another person's life, do you think that's the answer in the grander scheme of things?

Yep, absolutely, I could live with it just fine.

[Niamh.]

But then you would be a murderer, do you think you or your kids could live with that knowledge for the rest of your lives?

Like I said I can understand why a parent would feel that way, but actually taking another person's life, do you think that's the answer in the grander scheme of things?

also, the term "murderer" is quite subjective really. Do you consider a soldier to be a murderer? they kill people who may not be half as bad as a paedophile

[Tom4784]

also, the term "murderer" is quite subjective really. Do you consider a soldier to be a murderer? they kill people who may not be half as bad as a paedophile

I think the soldier analogy is a terrible one to use, this isn't a war situation and thus not applicable in any way.

[Lee.]

I'm talking about in the execution room, and in cold blood. Nah, that would have such an effect on you.

Oh believe me I could! If somebody killed my child, my life would be effected in such a way that an execution room would be a dawdle! I would give the bastard a few more buzzes for good measure too..

Seriously, it would not be a problem for me! Not at all!

I don't think it would be possible to get over the death of a child.. ever.

And no, killing would not bring the child back,but it would ensure that he didn't kill anybody else's baby plus rid me of the anger at the thought of him spending a few poxy years in a cell with a roof over his head and basically being protected by our shoddy system!

[MissKittyFantastico]

Yep, absolutely, I could live with it just fine.

Really? I think perhaps a lot of people could sit here and say that NOW, but when it actually comes to taking another person's life, it's a whole different matter. And it doesn't change anything, doesn't take away the crime that's been committed and someone else is also now dead. I just don't see how it makes anything better at all. And the criminal most probably has parents too, that have committed no wrong doing, so the grief and suffering is just being made more and more widespread.

[Niamh.]

I think the soldier analogy is a terrible one to use, this isn't a war situation and thus not applicable in any way.

The reason I used it, is because they kill people but that is accepted, I was simply trying to explain that killing another person is not always considered to be murder. You may think it's a terrible comparison to make but I don't.

[MissKittyFantastico]

also, the term "murderer" is quite subjective really. Do you consider a soldier to be a murderer? they kill people who may not be half as bad as a paedophile

That's a totally different thing Niamh!

[Tom4784]

The reason I used it, is because they kill people but that is accepted, I was simply trying to explain that killing another person is not always considered to be murder. You may think it's a terrible comparison to make but I don't.

But a soldier killing an insurgent is a different setting and different rules. Civilian laws aren't comparable to the regulations of beng a soldier.

[setanta]

Oh believe me I could! If somebody killed my child, my life would be effected in such a way that an execution room would be a dawdle! I would give the bastard a few more buzzes for good measure too..

Seriously, it would not be a problem for me! Not at all!

I don't think it would be possible to get over the death of a child.. ever.

And no, killing would not bring the child back,but it would ensure that he didn't kill anybody else's baby plus rid me of the anger at the thought of him spending a few poxy years in a cell with a roof over his head and basically being protected by our shoddy system!

You say that now, but it would stay with you forever and with your other kids. Eye for an eye never works.

[Niamh.]

Really? I think perhaps a lot of people could sit here and say that NOW, but when it actually comes to taking another person's life, it's a whole different matter. And it doesn't change anything, doesn't take away the crime that's been committed and someone else is also now dead. I just don't see how it makes anything better at all. And the criminal most probably has parents too, that have committed no wrong doing, so the grief and suffering is just being made more and more widespread.

obviously I haven't actually ever been in the situation so I could not tell you whether or not I would feel different if something like that ever happened but this is how I think I would feel. Why do you think I would care about the someone else who died when they're the ones who killed my child? I wonder if you would feel different if and when you do have kids? (I'm not saying that to be smart btw I am just genuinely curious about it)

[Kazanne]

To be honest I could live with that easier than I could live with anything happening to my children.

Well said happyland,some of these people are living in Disney World.If people have not got children ,how can they possibly feel the same as people who have,it is a love like no other(well should be) I would die for my children,and I'de happily serve time for protecting them,whatever that entailed.

[Niamh.]

But a soldier killing an insurgent is a different setting and different rules. Civilian laws aren't comparable to the regulations of beng a soldier.

yes I know but I wasn't using it in a law or regulations type comparison, I was asked how I would feel about killing the person afterwards. Whether a soldier is permitted to kill someone or not, they still feel like every other civilian does.

[MissKittyFantastico]

obviously I haven't actually ever been in the situation so I could not tell you whether or not I would feel different if something like that ever happened but this is how I think I would feel. Why do you think I would care about the someone else who died when they're the ones who killed my child? I wonder if you would feel different if and when you do have kids? (I'm not saying that to be smart btw I am just genuinely curious about it)

See I really don't like that, 'maybe you will feel different if and when you have kids', I think that's really unfair to use in debates. I know having a child is the most precious gift and the love is meant to be like no other, but I have already said that I would die for people that I love and my initial reaction would be to want to kill anyone that harmed them, I just know I wouldnt be able to actually do it and I don't think it's the answer.

[setanta]

yes I know but I wasn't using it in a law or regulations type comparison, I was asked how I would feel about killing the person afterwards. Whether a soldier is permitted to kill someone or not, they still feel like every other civilian does.

They kill in a war, in combat, and have been trained to do it without emotion. Totally different. And quite a few of them suffer afterwards anyway.

[MissKittyFantastico]

Well said happyland,some of these people are living in Disney World.If people have not got children ,how can they possibly feel the same as people who have,it is a love like no other(well should be) I would die for my children,and I'de happily serve time for protecting them,whatever that entailed.

Protecting them is a different thing to exacting revenge though.

[Lee.]

You say that now, but it would stay with you forever and with your other kids. Eye for an eye never works.

It would perhaps stay with me forever but so would losing a child!

I can't even begin to imagine how I would live if anything happened to my children at the hands of someone else.. It's painful to even think about.

The grief and pain of such a thing would be bad enough, but to know that whoever was responsible for such a thing was one day going to walk the streets again as a free man plus have his identity protected would add immeasurable anger to the devastation. I couldn't bear it.. I can't even stand to think about it. I would want that person dead.

[Niamh.]

See I really don't like that, 'maybe you will feel different if and when you have kids', I think that's really unfair to use in debates. I know having a child is the most precious gift and the love is meant to be like no other, but I have already said that I would die for people that I love and my initial reaction would be to want to kill anyone that harmed them, I just know I wouldnt be able to actually do it and I don't think it's the answer.

I didn't mean to offend you with that statement Michelle, like I said I was just genuinely curious about it. I'm in no way belittling how strong your feelings for your loved ones are but the love you have for your children is just different.

[MissKittyFantastico]

yes I know but I wasn't using it in a law or regulations type comparison, I was asked how I would feel about killing the person afterwards. Whether a soldier is permitted to kill someone or not, they still feel like every other civilian does.

And a hell of a lot of them are never the same again after having taken someone's life, PTSD and things like that that stays with them for years afterwards. That's why I'm saying it's not such a cut and dried argument and why asked I question if you would be able to live with taking another person's life.

[Lee.]

Well said happyland,some of these people are living in Disney World.If people have not got children ,how can they possibly feel the same as people who have,it is a love like no other(well should be) I would die for my children,and I'de happily serve time for protecting them,whatever that entailed.

Yeah, so would I. Obviously I feel protective over all my family and would be devastated if anyone harmed them, but the feelings are stronger, different even when it's your kids. Yeah I would die for them, no question!

[Niamh.]

They kill in a war, in combat, and have been trained to do it without emotion. Totally different. And quite a few of them suffer afterwards anyway.

I understand that and I wasn't having a go at soldiers at all, I think everyone has picked up the point I was trying to make wrongly. The point I was trying to make was that, a soldier is able to kill a person and sleep at night (not all I know) and I'm sure I would too as I would feel equally or even more justified.

[Niamh.]

And a hell of a lot of them are never the same again after having taken someone's life, PTSD and things like that that stays with them for years afterwards. That's why I'm saying it's not such a cut and dried argument and why asked I question if you would be able to live with taking another person's life.

Ok well if they hurt my children then yes I think I would.

[MissKittyFantastico]

I didn't mean to offend you with that statement Michelle, like I said I was just genuinely curious about it. I'm in no way belittling how strong your feelings for your loved ones are but the love you have for your children is just different.

Yes I know you didn't mean to offend me, and you weren't using it in that way, some people do though and I think that's out of order. Yes love for a human being that you yourself have helped create and brought into the world is going to be like no other and I fully understand the want to see justice done for that child, but taking away another person's life, who is also someone ELSE'S child is not the answer imo, and it solves nothing.

[Tom4784]

Well said happyland,some of these people are living in Disney World.If people have not got children ,how can they possibly feel the same as people who have,it is a love like no other(well should be) I would die for my children,and I'de happily serve time for protecting them,whatever that entailed.

Again you're belittling our opinions by saying that we don't know what we're on about because we're not parents. Can you actrually try and debate the points instead of writing the same thing over and over? Granted you feel strongly about this but you can't just sit there telling people they can't understand without partaking in the debate yourself.

[Niamh.]

Yes I know you didn't mean to offend me, and you weren't using it in that way, some people do though and I think that's out of order. Yes love for a human being that you yourself have helped create and brought into the world is going to be like no other and I fully understand the want to see justice done for that child, but taking away another person's life, who is also someone ELSE'S child is not the answer imo, and it solves nothing.

This may sound a bit harsh but I couldn't give a ***** if they're someone else child if they've taken away mine!

[setanta]

It would perhaps stay with me forever but so would losing a child!

I can't even begin to imagine how I would live if anything happened to my children at the hands of someone else.. It's painful to even think about.

The grief and pain of such a thing would be bad enough, but to know that whoever was responsible for such a thing was one day going to walk the streets again as a free man plus have his identity protected would add immeasurable anger to the devastation. I couldn't bear it.. I can't even stand to think about it. I would want that person dead.

It wouldn't help matters really. Have a friend who counsels victims of abuse and the deaths of the offenders never heals their wounds, only adds to them.

[MissKittyFantastico]

Ok well if they hurt my children then yes I think I would.

That's fair enough then. I just think that for a lot of people when it actually came down to it, they wouldn't be able to, but maybe I'm wrong. And I still maintain that it's not the answer.

Make life mean life, simple as that really. Although like I said I do think if you're going to lock these types of people up for the rest of their natural, we may as well use them for studies etc and to try and find some kind of cure, in the case of paedophilia anyway. They have an illness and there may be a cure, if we just kill them then we're never going to get anywhere.

[Tom4784]

This may sound a bit harsh but I couldn't give a ***** if they're someone else child if they've taken away mine!

Would you feel the same if the shoe was on the other foot and it was your child that could be executed though? You can't really discount the parent's feelings since they'd feel the same grief as you, possible more due to the fact their child commited the crime.

[MissKittyFantastico]

This may sound a bit harsh but I couldn't give a ***** if they're someone else child if they've taken away mine!

But by killing someone else's child you are then putting the same grief and suffering that you are going through onto someone else who has done nothing wrong. I just couldn't live with that and wouldn't wish that onto another innocent human being.

[setanta]

But by killing someone else's child you are then putting the same grief and suffering that you are going through onto someone else who has done nothing wrong. I just couldn't live with that and wouldn't wish that onto another innocent human being.

That's it really. Couldn't do it either. And what are you teaching your other children and how will they view you after the event? Nah, couldn't do it.

[Niamh.]

Would you feel the same if the shoe was on the other foot and it was your child that could be executed though? You can't really discount the parent's feelings since they'd feel the same grief as you, possible more due to the fact their child commited the crime.

I honestly can't even answer that. I don't know how I would feel in that situation tbh.

[Niamh.]

But by killing someone else's child you are then putting the same grief and suffering that you are going through onto someone else who has done nothing wrong. I just couldn't live with that and wouldn't wish that onto another innocent human being.

I honestly wouldn't care.

[MissKittyFantastico]

That's it really. Couldn't do it either. And what are you teaching your other children and how will they view you after the event? Nah, couldn't do it.

That's the thing, I know my initial response would be to want to kill anyone who harmed my own, but would I be able to live with having taken another human life and have my kids look at me knowing I'm for all intents and purposes a murderer? No I couldn't. It would haunt me for the rest of my life.

[Tom4784]

I, too, am impressed by jedward fever's grasp of points made and his ability to form his own opinions about such important issues at such a young age. I find his attitude and comments far more mature than those of some on here.

It's an older post but I took exception to this, His posts spoke of murdering & torturing people, saying that he'd stab criminals if he had the chance and he admitted double standards and bias. We should be encouraging him to be consistant and to think about consequence as well as actions, not applauding him for being hysterical.

Terrible message to send out, he's entitled to his opinion but we shouldn't be praising him for how he came across.

[setanta]

That's the thing, I know my initial response would be to want to kill anyone who harmed my own, but would I be able to live with having taken another human life and have my kids look at me knowing I'm for all intents and purposes a murderer? No I couldn't. It would haunt me for the rest of my life.

Talk about emotional damage! They'd be headcases... well, there's a good chance that it would effect them in some ways, no question about it.

[Kazanne]

Again you're belittling our opinions by saying that we don't know what we're on about because we're not parents. Can you actrually try and debate the points instead of writing the same thing over and over? Granted you feel strongly about this but you can't just sit there telling people they can't understand without partaking in the debate yourself.

How can you possibly know how you would feel if you don't have children?I said some people are living in Disney land and they are, if they believe that they could be so forgiving if God forbid someone harmed their child,I am not belittling anyone and you know that,I am posting my opinion which you don't like or agree with,so are now picking up on things i have said ,wrongly!! as you did when you posted i said i wanted people killed,I never said that at all.You cannot know a parents love until you are one,it's common sense I would have thought.I do not post the same thing over and over unless i have to keep explaining to people what i have posted,it might help if people read them properly!I do know what you are trying to do:joker:and your supposed to be TIBB staff!,LOL,I am allowed to disagree with you and your buddies you know.

[MissKittyFantastico]

I honestly wouldn't care.

But you just said to Dezzy that you don't know how you'd feel if it was your child that had committed the crime and were to be executed. By killing the one that has done the crime to your own is bringing the same grief and suffering onto their family as if they'd been executed so it's basically the same thing, if that makes sense.

[Niamh.]

That's the thing, I know my initial response would be to want to kill anyone who harmed my own, but would I be able to live with having taken another human life and have my kids look at me knowing I'm for all intents and purposes a murderer? No I couldn't. It would haunt me for the rest of my life.

well, I ask myself this question - If say my brother was raped and brutally murdered and my mother killed the murderer would I think she was wrong and look at her as a criminal and I would answer No, I would think she was completely justified.

[MissKittyFantastico]

How can you possibly know how you would feel if you don't have children?I said some people are living in Disney land and they are, if they believe that they could be so forgiving if God forbid someone harmed their child,I am not belittling anyone and you know that,I am posting my opinion which you don't like or agree with,so are now picking up on things i have said ,wrongly!! as you did when you posted i said i wanted people killed,I never said that at all.You cannot know a parents love until you are one,it's common sense I would have thought.I do not post the same thing over and over unless i have to keep explaining to people what i have posted,it might help if people read them properly!I do know what you are trying to do:joker:and your supposed to be TIBB staff!,LOL,I am allowed to disagree with you and your buddies you know.

Noone that I've seen has said that they would FORGIVE the person that committed that kind of crime though, not that I have seen anyway. They are just saying, as I am, that although the initial reaction would undoubtedly be to want to exact revenge, that is isn't the answer. I don't think anyone is in Disney Land and saying that it's okay and fine and dandy and let them get away with it, they should be locked up for the forseeable, for life in some cases, but taking away their life doesn't solve anything in the long run.

[Niamh.]

But you just said to Dezzy that you don't know how you'd feel if it was your child that had committed the crime and were to be executed. By killing the one that has done the crime to your own is bringing the same grief and suffering onto their family as if they'd been executed so it's basically the same thing, if that makes sense.

I said I didn't know how I would feel if my child has committed the crime yes but I think I know how I would feel if they were on the receiving end of it.

[Kazanne]

It's an older post but I took exception to this, His posts spoke of murdering & torturing people, saying that he'd stab criminals if he had the chance and he admitted double standards and bias. We should be encouraging him to be consistant and to think about consequence as well as actions, not applauding him for being hysterical.

Terrible message to send out, he's entitled to his opinion but we shouldn't be praising him for how he came across.

Jedward is harmless,he just gets angry as most of us do with crimes like this,the lad would no more hurt anyone than you would,he wasn't hysterical,he just cares about childrens welfare,more than a criminals welfare as some of us do.people use these phrases everyday,most don't carry them through.

[MissKittyFantastico]

well, I ask myself this question - If say my brother was raped and brutally murdered and my mother killed the murderer would I think she was wrong and look at her as a criminal and I would answer No, I would think she was completely justified.

Of course you wouldn't because she is your mother, but would she be able to live with it and never think about the fact that she has taken someone else's life? Can we sit here and say that it wouldn't affect her mentally and emotionally? No I honestly don't think we can.

[Niamh.]

Of course you wouldn't because she is your mother, but would she be able to live with it and never think about the fact that she has taken someone else's life? Can we sit here and say that it wouldn't affect her mentally and emotionally? No I honestly don't think we can.

I couldn't possibly tell you how another person would feel (my mother or not!) I can only tell you how I think I would feel. I understand that you don't feel the same way but we're all different.

[Tom4784]

How can you possibly know how you would feel if you don't have children?I said some people are living in Disney land and they are, if they believe that they could be so forgiving if God forbid someone harmed their child,I am not belittling anyone and you know that,I am posting my opinion which you don't like or agree with,so are now picking up on things i have said ,wrongly!! as you did when you posted i said i wanted people killed,I never said that at all.You cannot know a parents love until you are one,it's common sense I would have thought.I do not post the same thing over and over unless i have to keep explaining to people what i have posted,it might help if people read them properly!I do know what you are trying to do:joker:and your supposed to be TIBB staff!,LOL,I am allowed to disagree with you and your buddies you know.

I have sympathy and empathy because my family has suffered a violent loss, I know how I feel in situations like that because I've experienced it. I still feel as though capital punishment isn't the way because why would I want to pass that grief onto someone else? the criminal won't feel pain in the end he'll be dead but their family will be left to pick up the pieces. At least with imprisonment they can't escape what they've done.

I'm letting you have an opinion, I just don't agree with you attempting to silence others by saying they can't have an opinion because they're not parents which is essentiallly what you are doing whether you realise that or not. Have an opinion, but give others that same right. That's all I'm saying. Having children doesn't give you a supreme knowledge of law or ethics so who are you to tell other people that they don't understand when we're debating this. You can't exclude people from that.

Just because I'm a mod doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion, I'm not breaking any rules here, I've not attacked you personally so stop trying to make me out to be the bad guys here, It's just taking away from any arguments you do have as you can't argue a point without getting personal with other members.

[Kazanne]

Noone that I've seen has said that they would FORGIVE the person that committed that kind of crime though, not that I have seen anyway. They are just saying, as I am, that although the initial reaction would undoubtedly be to want to exact revenge, that is isn't the answer. I don't think anyone is in Disney Land and saying that it's okay and fine and dandy and let them get away with it, they should be locked up for the forseeable, for life in some cases, but taking away their life doesn't solve anything in the long run.

But that is what some people want,the criminals to be locked up,not let out after a couple of years,but this is where it all goes wrong,they get a few years in a cushy jail and then let out, all we are saying we would want revenge,of course we would,but most of us would never follow it through,it is just the expressions people use when angry or disbelieving of certain things,My guess is there wouldn't be so many calling for the death penalty back if prison sentences were for life,as they should be for child murders,I would be happy NOT to kill them but let them stay locked up for the rest of their natural.

[MissKittyFantastico]

I couldn't possibly tell you how another person would feel (my mother or not!) I can only tell you how I think I would feel. I understand that you don't feel the same way but we're all different.

Yes I know we're all different, I just honestly feel that when it came to it most people would realise that they couldn't actually live with having taken another person's life. Killing someone changes you forever, you mentioned soldiers killing for their job's, well most of them are never the same again afterwards.

And at the end of the day NOONE knows how they would feel until God forbid something like that actually happens.

[MissKittyFantastico]

But that is what some people want,the criminals to be locked up,not let out after a couple of years,but this is where it all goes wrong,they get a few years in a cushy jail and then let out, all we are saying we would want revenge,of course we would,but most of us would never follow it through,it is just the expressions people use when angry or disbelieving of certain things,My guess is there wouldn't be so many calling for the death penalty back if prison sentences were for life,as they should be for child murders,I would be happy NOT to kill them but let them stay locked up for the rest of their natural.

And I agree with this 100% and that's where the problem lies totally. Life doesnt mean life and prisons are too soft these days.

[Niamh.]

Yes I know we're all different, I just honestly feel that when it came to it most people would realise that they couldn't actually live with having taken another person's life. Killing someone changes you forever, you mentioned soldiers killing for their job's, well most of them are never the same again afterwards.

And at the end of the day NOONE knows how they would feel until God forbid something like that actually happens.

Do you not think that having lost a child a mother would already be changed forever?

[Niamh.]

But that is what some people want,the criminals to be locked up,not let out after a couple of years,but this is where it all goes wrong,they get a few years in a cushy jail and then let out, all we are saying we would want revenge,of course we would,but most of us would never follow it through,it is just the expressions people use when angry or disbelieving of certain things,My guess is there wouldn't be so many calling for the death penalty back if prison sentences were for life,as they should be for child murders,I would be happy NOT to kill them but let them stay locked up for the rest of their natural.

And I agree with this 100% and that's where the problem lies totally. Life doesnt mean life and prisons are too soft these days.

yes! you see if the murderer was inside of a prison cell for the rest of their miserable life then whether or not to murder them would not even be an issue!

[arista]

I cannot believe Jedward Fever is just 14,what an intelligent young lad he is,he has put to shame some of his fellow posters to shame,with his grasp of humanity and his views on things,I knew he had a good head on him as soon as he announced Ben his fave housemate,lol,so for you Jedward,well done,your parents have done a great job with you,such a shame there are not more teenages around like you,I may not be posting too much now,cant be doing with moderators favouring their 'mates' and childish immature posts,but I have met some great posters here they know who they are:-))Think I will head to the adults forum for a while.


This is the Adult Section.
a few younger ones pop in with spoons.

[MissKittyFantastico]

Do you not think that having lost a child a mother would already be changed forever?

Of course they would! I can't even begin to imagine what that would feel like, but I still maintain that taking away another person's life is not going to make you feel any better in the long run. Your own child will still be gone, it won't bring them back, and you'd have to live with the fact that you yourself have extinguished another human life. Maybe some people could live with that, and maybe it would bring some kind of satisfaction knowing that that person couldn't ever hurt anyone else again, but like I said, you'd never be the same again, taking a life is like nothing else, same as having a child and losing a child, it just affects you in different ways.

[MissKittyFantastico]

yes! you see if the murderer was inside of a prison cell for the rest of their miserable life then whether or not to murder them would not even be an issue!

And that's what most people are saying, if the punishment fit the crime in this country then we wouldn't even be needing to have this debate. It's the system that's at fault and it is little wonder that people feel the way they do when the law is basically an ass at the moment.

[Kazanne]

I have sympathy and empathy because my family has suffered a violent loss, I know how I feel in situations like that because I've experienced it. I still feel as though capital punishment isn't the way because why would I want to pass that grief onto someone else? the criminal won't feel pain in the end he'll be dead but their family will be left to pick up the pieces. At least with imprisonment they can't escape what they've done.

I'm letting you have an opinion, I just don't agree with you attempting to silence others by saying they can't have an opinion because they're not parents which is essentiallly what you are doing whether you realise that or not. Have an opinion, but give others that same right. That's all I'm saying. Having children doesn't give you a supreme knowledge of law or ethics so who are you to tell other people that they don't understand when we're debating this. You can't exclude people from that.

Just because I'm a mod doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion, I'm not breaking any rules here, I've not attacked you personally so stop trying to make me out to be the bad guys here, It's just taking away from any arguments you do have as you can't argue a point without getting personal with other members.

Who am I trying to silence?I said(once again)you cannot know how you would feel if it was your child if you have none!people can have what opinions they like,I do not profess to have supreme knowledge,but I DO have knowledge,I wish I didn't but I do,so I can and will voice my opinion,i have never said i wanted capital punishment,WHY do you keep quoting things I have never said?Who have I been personal to that havent been personal to me?

[Lee.]

It wouldn't help matters really. Have a friend who counsels victims of abuse and the deaths of the offenders never heals their wounds, only adds to them.

I'm telling you, the only way I could live after the death of a child is by knowing that his killer was dead too.. SOunds bad perhaps but I know that's how I feel.

I'm a compassionate person and I'm also very forgiving.. But this scenario is a whole different kettle of fish!

[Niamh.]

Of course they would! I can't even begin to imagine what that would feel like, but I still maintain that taking away another person's life is not going to make you feel any better in the long run. Your own child will still be gone, it won't bring them back, and you'd have to live with the fact that you yourself have extinguished another human life. Maybe some people could live with that, and maybe it would bring some kind of satisfaction knowing that that person couldn't ever hurt anyone else again, but like I said, you'd never be the same again, taking a life is like nothing else, same as having a child and losing a child, it just affects you in different ways.

I hear what you are saying but you also have to see what you're saying to me and apply it to yourself. I'm guessing about how I may or may not feel about something that hasn't happened but so are you. I assume that you have never taken another persons life so you too are only guessing on how you would feel if you did.

[Niamh.]

And that's what most people are saying, if the punishment fit the crime in this country then we wouldn't even be needing to have this debate. It's the system that's at fault and it is little wonder that people feel the way they do when the law is basically an ass at the moment.

absolutely, same in this country unfortunately. The justice system is crazy, seems like the criminals have more rights than the victims which is so frustrating which is why I understand people taking matters into their own hands.

[MissKittyFantastico]

I hear what you are saying but you also have to see what you're saying to me and apply it to yourself. I'm guessing about how I may or may not feel about something that hasn't happened but so are you. I assume that you have never taken another persons life so you too are only guessing on how you would feel if you did.

Yes this is all hypothetical in our case (and thank god it is!) but I know myself and I just know (as well as I can without it having happened) that I wouldn't be able to take another person's life in that way. Now if I was there at the time and it was a case of protecting my child or any other loved one or in self defense, then that's a whole different thing, but actually actively seeking out and killing or executing someone after the event, no I honestly don't believe I could do it or live with it either, and even if it was in self defense I still believe I would never be the same.

[Kazanne]

I'm telling you, the only way I could live after the death of a child is by knowing that his killer was dead too.. SOunds bad perhaps but I know that's how I feel.

I'm a compassionate person and I'm also very forgiving.. But this scenario is a whole different kettle of fish!

I am too,although some people will not believe that,the reason I am so passionate about it is because it's close to my heart,when a child is murdered ,tortured and abused, it not only kills the child it kills the family too.

[Tom4784]

Who am I trying to silence?I said(once again)you cannot know how you would feel if it was your child if you have none!people can have what opinions they like,I do not profess to have supreme knowledge,but I DO have knowledge,I wish I didn't but I do,so I can and will voice my opinion,i have never said i wanted capital punishment,WHY do you keep quoting things I have never said?Who have I been personal to that havent been personal to me?

There's this thing called Empathy? We can empathise but ultimately I can't agree with capital punishment, I was raised to respect human life and I just see it as extinguishing a life out of nothing but revenge. I don't like bringing it up but I do know of the anger a person feels when they lose a family member to crime.

You wouldn't appreciate it if I posted stuff like' You don't UNDERSTAND! You've never lost anyone to violent crime so you can't grasp how it feels!' So why should you be allowed to shut people down by saying they can't grasp the issue at hand because they're not parents? Treat people how you want to be treated Kazanne.

You've been personal to me, Twice in the last page you've been quoted for attacking me over being a mod when I've not said anything personal to you or anybody. When it comes to modding I'm very careful and impartial and I rarely act without things being reported and if I do I'll explain why to the other mods. I go to a lot of lengths to be as impartial as possible so I don't appreciate you trying to discredit and attack me over being a mod when I'm not breaking any rules by partaking in the debate. I've never attacked you personally I've just disagreed with your methods of arguing.

[Lee.]

I am too,although some people will not believe that,the reason I am so passionate about it is because it's close to my heart,when a child is murdered ,tortured and abused, it not only kills the child it kills the family too.

Yep, I can imagine! Well I can't really, but you know what I mean..

[Angus]

By your logic, from what we know of each other (which is very little) then I should be the most knowledgeable in this subject because my family has been a victim of violent crime. Is that right? Or does that rule only apply to you?

It's a silly statement to make as well as hugely offensive and pretentious to all but yourself.



I know a lot about how the victim's family feels in these situations Angus so I resent the first paragraph completely, just because I'm not bloodthirsty about it doesn't make me misguided. Violence won't heal a broken family and Capital Punishment will just lead to another family grieving and I wouldn't inflict that on my worst enemy. Revenge doesn't make the pain go away.

I agree that the Human Rights Legislation is flawed like all things in life but your solution isn't any better.


I did not address my post to you so I can't be responsible for your resenting my comments. I was addressing Kazanne who has suffered more than her fair share of heartache.

I'm afraid on an issue like this which is so close to my heart I am not prepared to compromise my opinions to fit in with anyone else's, especially if I vehemently disagree. I am sorry if your family have suffered violent crime, but you and your family chose to deal with it in your own way, I and some others on here would deal with it differently. The issue of whether my decision was right or wrong would not come into it. What the dissenters fail to understand is that from my point of view I actually despise where THEY are coming from - I could say a lot more about what I think of their attitude but what would be the point?

I would be satisfied with the judicial system if, in fact the sentence of life for murderers and paedophiles meant LIFE, not 20 years, or 10 years with good behaviour! It would still eat away at me every day that the murderer of my child was alive, but at least I would know that he or she was never getting out again. Sadly this is not the case and I can honestly say that I would not rest if I thought such an evil person was free to walk the streets again.

The Human Rights Act was poorly conceived and it has proven to be completely unjust in practise since it rewards evil doers at the expense of the law abiding.

[setanta]

I'm telling you, the only way I could live after the death of a child is by knowing that his killer was dead too.. SOunds bad perhaps but I know that's how I feel.

I'm a compassionate person and I'm also very forgiving.. But this scenario is a whole different kettle of fish!

It's nothing about compassion or forgiveness here: I'm talking about revenge and killing. I just don't think it would be healthy for you in the long run, that's all.

[Niamh.]

I did not address my post to you so I can't be responsible for your resenting my comments. I was addressing Kazanne who has suffered more than her fair share of heartache.

I'm afraid on an issue like this which is so close to my heart I am not prepared to compromise my opinions to fit in with anyone else's, especially if I vehemently disagree. I am sorry if your family have suffered violent crime, but you and your family chose to deal with it in your own way, I and some others on here would deal with it differently. The issue of whether my decision was right or wrong would not come into it. What the dissenters fail to understand is that from my point of view I actually despise where THEY are coming from - I could say a lot more about what I think of their attitude but what would be the point?

I would be satisfied with the judicial system if, in fact the sentence of life for murderers and paedophiles meant LIFE, not 20 years, or 10 years with good behaviour! It would still eat away at me every day that the murderer of my child was alive, but at least I would know that he or she was never getting out again. Sadly this is not the case and I can honestly say that I would not rest if I thought such an evil person was free to walk the streets again.

The Human Rights Act was poorly conceived and it has proven to be completely unjust in practise since it rewards evil doers at the expense of the law abiding.

great post, I agree 100%

[Angus]

It's an older post but I took exception to this, His posts spoke of murdering & torturing people, saying that he'd stab criminals if he had the chance and he admitted double standards and bias. We should be encouraging him to be consistant and to think about consequence as well as actions, not applauding him for being hysterical.

Terrible message to send out, he's entitled to his opinion but we shouldn't be praising him for how he came across.


I take exception to the fact that you use my post about jedward fever to bolster up an opinion YOU personally have about a post of HIS. Very crafty, because by implication you are saying that I have actively encouraged his opinions and statements, and worse still I have INFLUENCED him. That is not only insulting to me, but to jedward fever also, in fact it's downright patronising to him. I can't respect the opinions of someone so blatantly manipulative - it is a fact that you have used my post out of context entirely.

Nor do I take kindly to being told who I may or may not wish to praise or, for that matter, condemn. Is this, or is this not, a public forum for debate? If so, then I will express my opinion, and will not take responsibility for what others may wish to post.

[Lee.]

It's nothing about compassion or forgiveness here: I'm talking about revenge and killing. I just don't think it would be healthy for you in the long run, that's all.

I'm not talking about compassion or forgiveness either.. I just mentioned incase people assume that I am a cold blooded, callous bitch with no feelings.. It's not the case.

But I can assure you, those qualities would fly right out the window should somebody harm my child!

You keep saying that I wouldn't be able to live with myself for doing it, but to me it's the only way I could live. I don't think the death of the killer WOULD make me feel any better but him living would make me feel worse.

[Angus]

I'm not talking about compassion or forgiveness either.. I just mentioned incase people assume that I am a cold blooded, callous bitch with no feelings.. It's not the case.

But I can assure you, those qualities would fly right out the window should somebody harm my child!

You keep saying that I wouldn't be able to live with myself for doing it, but to me it's the only way I could live. I don't think the death of the killer WOULD make me feel any better but him living would make me feel worse.

You have put it in a nutshell - absolutely agree.

[Kazanne]

There's this thing called Empathy? We can empathise but ultimately I can't agree with capital punishment, I was raised to respect human life and I just see it as extinguishing a life out of nothing but revenge. I don't like bringing it up but I do know of the anger a person feels when they lose a family member to crime.

You wouldn't appreciate it if I posted stuff like' You don't UNDERSTAND! You've never lost anyone to violent crime so you can't grasp how it feels!' So why should you be allowed to shut people down by saying they can't grasp the issue at hand because they're not parents? Treat people how you want to be treated Kazanne.

You've been personal to me, Twice in the last page you've been quoted for attacking me over being a mod when I've not said anything personal to you or anybody. When it comes to modding I'm very careful and impartial and I rarely act without things being reported and if I do I'll explain why to the other mods. I go to a lot of lengths to be as impartial as possible so I don't appreciate you trying to discredit and attack me over being a mod when I'm not breaking any rules by partaking in the debate. I've never attacked you personally I've just disagreed with your methods of arguing.

So you don't agree with capital punishment,when have i ever said you should?or that I do? I am not being personal about you being a mod,but it is blindingly obvious when reading posts that SOME mods let their pals get away with posting stuff that others can't,that is not an attack,i've observed it,infact there was quite an argument about biased mods on the BB forum,I also don't appreciate you trying to make out I am some sort of vigilante where criminals are concerned,but I would gladly strap a couple of them to a railway line(that is my personal thought,it's not something I would do)I don't think,,Most of the mods here are ok,but I have had run ins with a couple before,people have often been personal to me,but mostly it's overlooked and if i feel someone is out of order,I will say so,I know people don't like me for it but that's me,take it or leave it.I say what i feel please or offend.

[InOne]

What about those of you with more than 1 child? You'd go out and kill the person who did such a thing to one of your children, but what about the others? They'd grow up without a mother, and they'd grow thinking violence was a way to solve thing. How would justify murder without them thinking it was ok themselves?

[Lee.]

To be honest, we're actually talking about Capital punishment here, whereby a judge and jury would be the actual decision makers and I would actually have nothing to do with the actual execution... I would be absolutely fine with this, as I have said.

James asked me if I COULD actually push the button myself and my answer is yes, definitely.

But in the real world I WOULDN'T atually be doing the killing therefore, I would not worry about what my other child thought of me.

[InOne]

I still think anyone brought up thinking a life for a life is ok will have a warped sense of morals.

[cupid stunt]

That doesn't mean we can justify violence towards them, it makes us as bad as the thugs in the streets if we did that.
no it dont
heres hopin sum screw turns a blind eye n 'accidenatly' leaves that scumbags pad open 1 day.....

[Niamh.]

I still think anyone brought up thinking a life for a life is ok will have a warped sense of morals.

we're talking about hypothetical and extreme cases here Joe.

[InOne]

we're talking about hypothetical and extreme cases here Joe.

Indeed, but most in this debate still insist they know exactly how they'd feel and what they would do.

[Lee.]

I still think anyone brought up thinking a life for a life is ok will have a warped sense of morals.

Hmm.. see to me "a life for a life" makes much more sense than allowing a child rapist /murderer/torturer to live in relative comfort for a few years then giving them a new identity/new location/new life (where nobody know's what they actually are) and allowing them to go and do exactly the same to somebody elses baby!

I'm not saying anybody elses opinion on this thread is wrong, but this is just how I feel!

[Angus]

I still think anyone brought up thinking a life for a life is ok will have a warped sense of morals.

The thing is that I think those that don't believe that a life for a life is just and equitable are the ones with a warped sense of morality.

[Kazanne]

What about those of you with more than 1 child? You'd go out and kill the person who did such a thing to one of your children, but what about the others? They'd grow up without a mother, and they'd grow thinking violence was a way to solve thing. How would justify murder without them thinking it was ok themselves?

IF criminals were dealt with properly by the system,IF they were given LIFE instead of a few poxy years,people would NOT be calling for the death penalty,but it's all IFS and buts as the system has failed so many children who have been killed or abused,THAT is why those of us who have had to suffer these things first hand feel so passionate about the way murderers are dealt with,you get more for robbing a bank in this country than you do for child murder,that is WRONG.

[Angus]

Indeed, but most in this debate still insist they know exactly how they'd feel and what they would do.

Well most of us are pretty much in touch with out own feelings and have an established belief system that informs our thoughts and actions, so we are entitled to hypothesise about how we believe we would act in any given situation - I would say it's almost a requirement just to be able to function in day to day life.

[Niamh.]

Indeed, but most in this debate still insist they know exactly how they'd feel and what they would do.

well, I can only speak for myself here but I am simply saying how I think I would feel, I can not possibly say with a 100% accuracy either way.

[InOne]

Hmm.. see to me "a life for a life" makes much more sense than allowing a child rapist /murderer/torturer to live in relative comfort for a few years then giving them a new identity/new location/new life (where nobody know's what they actually are) and allowing them to go and do exactly the same to somebody elses baby!

I'm not saying anybody elses opinion on this thread is wrong, but this is just how I feel!

Yep I didn't say the system was perfect. But killing them will only satisfy your need of wanting them to die, it won't stop more being born, or more acting in the ways that they do. As in an earier post I said, there should be more money that goes into finding out the causes, triggers and what makes them take that leap over the edge.

[InOne]

IF criminals were dealt with properly by the system,IF they were given LIFE instead of a few poxy years,people would NOT be calling for the death penalty,but it's all IFS and buts as the system has failed so many children who have been killed or abused,THAT is why those of us who have had to suffer these things first hand feel so passionate about the way murderers are dealt with,you get more for robbing a bank in this country than you do for child murder,that is WRONG.

Quite a bold statement, can you back that up?

[InOne]

Well most of us are pretty much in touch with out own feelings and have an established belief system that informs our thoughts and actions, so we are entitled to hypothesise about how we believe we would act in any given situation - I would say it's almost a requirement just to be able to function in day to day life.

Definitely, but even you yourself are not 100% sure how you'd act, yet you seem to lay it down that that is the only course of action you'd take.