Sexual abuse of a 5 month old baby

[Angus]

Article from The Independent today:

"Girlfriend 'took lead role in sexual abuse of baby'


Wednesday, 6 October 2010


A paedophile said in court today he was told what to do by his then girlfriend as the pair sexually assaulted and took photographs of a five-month-old baby.


Colin Blanchard said it was Tracy Dawber, 44, who took the lead in the abuse.


Dawber, formerly of Bedford Road, Southport, Merseyside, denies the assault and permitting Blanchard to take the five indecent pictures.


Blanchard, 40, formerly from Rochdale, Lancs, is in custody awaiting sentence after admitting his involvement in the alleged assault by Dawber.


He told the jury at Winchester Crown Court today that Dawber had lifted the child's clothes to show it had no nappy on and he said Dawber told him to look at the child and to take the photographs.


"I was quite passive in the whole thing. I was taking the photographs as instructed," he said.


"I took a photograph and she asked me to show it to her and then I took another and I showed it again and she repositioned the child accordingly."


He said there had been sexual talk during the taking of the images but not much was said afterwards.


The pair had first had normal sex when they met in 2007 before moving on to what Blanchard described to the jury as an "A to Z of sexual desires and fantasies" and the pair discussed child sex.


During cross-examination by Deborah Gould, Blanchard admitted he was selfish and arrogant, that he lied to police and had tried to blame others.


He admitted he had been involved with many other woman including two named in court as Vanessa George and Tracy Lyons.


He had also sent images of child sex to two unnamed women, he admitted to the jury.


He said before his arrest he had been living a "double life".


Miss Gould asked: Did you know what the truth was at that time?"


Blanchard: "No".


Miss Gould: "But you know now?"


Blanchard: "Yes, as strange as it may seem."


Earlier the jury heard Dawber admitted it was her holding the baby in the photographs but denied the alleged wrongdoing.


In interview Dawber told police she could not remember the pictures being taken, but Simon Morgan, prosecuting, told the jury the Nokia phone always flashed when it took the pictures.


He said some had been taken from only about 9in away on August 20 2008.


"The Crown say the defendant was able to see the phone being used," he said.


Mr Morgan said the pair met in 2007 and had a sexual relationship and that she had "linked herself to his grossly unacceptable activities".


She described him as a sociable person but said she had been "disgusted when she heard on the news what he had been involved with".


Blanchard was caught in June 2009 when a work colleague discovered child pornography on his computer, the court heard.


He was arrested at Manchester airport and a connection via a Facebook account was made with Dawber.


Officers also uncovered the mobile phone from Blanchard's Volvo that contained the images of the baby, which were shown to the jury. It also showed Dawber in explicit poses.


When arrested in November 2009 Dawber would not confirm it was her holding the baby but she later admitted it.


Officers found child pornography on her computer that was the same as that discovered on Blanchard's and search words on her machine linked to child porn such as "Lolita". A PDF file containing stories about incest was also found. "




I just can't get my head around this story - but the thought of it just makes me sick to my stomach. The perpetrators can't possibly be part of the human race - I know what I would like to do to them, and it involves a chainsaw and a noose. Sadly under our useless justice system they will get just a few years in jail before being released to do it all over again.

[Lee.]

I'm actually speechless! I read something even worse yesterday involving a head teacher and a 3 year old... I just can't ****ing believe these people! Seriously CANNOT get me head around it at all!

[Jords]

://////////

[Iceman]

That's horrific, people like these should be locked up and just let die a slow and painful death.

[Angus]

Vanessa George (the nursery assistant accused of sexual abuse of the children in her care) got only 7 years and her accomplice got only 5 years. They are also entitled under Human Rights legislation to have a new identity when they leave prison, funded of course by the taxpayer. This vile and disgusting pair will no doubt get similarly light sentences.

Our judicial system is an absolute joke.

[MTVN]

:o

Reminds me of A Serbian Film.

[Jordan.]

Disgusting. Someone kill them please.

[Lee.]

Vanessa George (the nursery assistant accused of sexual abuse of the children in her care) got only 7 years and her accomplice got only 5 years. They are also entitled under Human Rights legislation to have a new identity when they leave prison, funded of course by the taxpayer. This vile and disgusting pair will no doubt get similarly light sentences.

Our judicial system is an absolute joke.

Yeah plus she'll be entitled to a brand new appearance?!! She can have her own personal trainer even if needed! What the actual **** is it all about?! It really makes my blood boil!
Let her out of prison with her own rotten identity amongst the general public!. Hopefully she would get what she deserves!

[Jack_]

:bored:

[Billy]

I really dont understand the article, maybe I'm just beign thick but what happened?

[Tom4784]

Disgusting, I hope they both get the maximum sentance.

[Angus]

Originally posted by Billy
"I really dont understand the article, maybe I'm just beign thick but what happened?"
__________________



The woman, sexually abused the baby whilst the guy took photos. If that is not clear enough here is the legal definition, bearing in mind this is what they were charged with:

The official definition is "sexual abuse involves forcing or enticing a child or young person to take part in sexual activities including prostitution, whether or not the child is aware of what is happening. The activities may involve physical contact, including penetrative (e.g. rape, buggery or oral sex) or non-penetrative acts. They may include non-contact activities, such as involving children in looking at, or in the production of, pornographic material or watching sexual activities, or encouraging children to behave in sexually inappropriate ways" (DfES, 2006)

[MTVN]

Get ready Angus for the assholes with their pathetic 'jokes'!!! Good God what are we living amongst? as i said with the story of the toddler taped to a wall.steralize these 'people'they are sick individuals and should never be allowed to breed,How can a sane person abuse a child ,any child ,there are plenty of prostitutes etc,out there to satiate these animals,chop their hands off,they will never touch another child!

Forced sterilisation? Chop their hands off? How humane of you!

[InOne]

Get ready Angus for the assholes with their pathetic 'jokes'!!! Good God what are we living amongst? as i said with the story of the toddler taped to a wall.steralize these 'people'they are sick individuals and should never be allowed to breed,How can a sane person abuse a child ,any child ,there are plenty of prostitutes etc,out there to satiate these animals,chop their hands off,they will never touch another child!

We don't live in Saudi, good god.

[Tom]

Thats only them on 'C' of their A-Z of sex. I hate to think what they'd if they complete it

[Angus]

Get ready Angus for the assholes with their pathetic 'jokes'!!! Good God what are we living amongst? as i said with the story of the toddler taped to a wall.steralize these 'people'they are sick individuals and should never be allowed to breed,How can a sane person abuse a child ,any child ,there are plenty of prostitutes etc,out there to satiate these animals,chop their hands off,they will never touch another child!

You will also get idiots who argue that we should treat this scum in a civilised manner. Why? What would be the point in keeping vermin like this in the land of the living to inflict pain on innocent children if they get half a chance. If I were the parent of an abused child I'd be waiting outside the prison gates on their release to inflict my own brand of justice since the judicial system in this country is pathetically inadequate.

[Tom4784]

Justice and violence are two different things, you can't use one to justify the other. 'Chopping people's hands off' or 'delivering your own justice' isn't justice it's thuggish behavior that you're attempting to justify.

Eye for an eye leaves us all blind in the end.

[Kazanne]

Forced sterilisation? Chop their hands off? How humane of you!

More humane than people who get their kicks from hurting and abusing kids,but obviously you don't think so

[InOne]

More humane than people who get their kicks from hurting and abusing kids,but obviously you don't think so

Not really. We become as bad as them, seen as you're taking pleasure in their pain.

[MTVN]

More humane than people who get their kicks from hurting and abusing kids,but obviously you don't think so

Nope, forced sterilisation is one of the most inhumane things you could do to a person.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

i wish people would stop posting threads like this they are just depressing

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

http://www.theearthconnection.org/blog/photos/panda_rescue/a%20cute%20panda%20in%20straw.JPG

[Kazanne]

Nope, forced sterilisation is one of the most inhumane things you could do to a person.

So you would quite happily let this person have more children to abuse? Why do you think people who abuse and hurt kids deserve to have them?

[Angus]

Justice and violence are two different things, you can't use one to justify the other. 'Chopping people's hands off' or 'delivering your own justice' isn't justice it's thuggish behavior that you're attempting to justify.

Eye for an eye leaves us all blind in the end.

If and when you become a parent one day, you might begin to understand. Till then keep your sanctimonious, mealymouthed judgments to yourself. And for the record I was not "attempting to justify" anything, I was stating what I would actually DO if that were my baby, and the judicial system let me down. Why would I feel the need to justify myself to you or any other liberal, laissez faire idiots who, unfortunately, seem to dominate the judiciary, handing out lenient sentences for such serious crimes as these.

"All it takes for the triumph of evil is for good men to stand by and do NOTHING". Ever heard of fighting fire with fire? Paedophiles cannot be cured, they are not able to be rehabilitated, so what is your answer, oh wise one?

[Kazanne]

i wish people would stop posting threads like this they are just depressing

This is a 'serious debates' thread,perhaps you should go in the chat and games one as real life can be depressing unfortunately,people who don't want to hear these things,are just shutting reality out.

[Tom4784]

So you would quite happily let this person have more children to abuse? Why do you think people who abuse and hurt kids deserve to have them?

Well the Social Services would obviously get involved, you can't justify Inhumanity as justice Kazanne. The point of the law is that we are better then the criminals and that they are punished fairly and justly, not that we torture them and become as bad as them.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

This is a 'serious debates' thread,perhaps you should go in the chat and games one as real life can be depressing unfortunately,people who don't want to hear these things,are just shutting reality out.

not really shutting reality out its just like why would you even want to talk about things like that?

lets talk about nice things like fluffy bunnies and rainbows :love:

[Kazanne]

Well the Social Services would obviously get involved, you can't justify Inhumanity as justice Kazanne. The point of the law is that we are better then the criminals and that they are punished fairly and justly, not that we torture them and become as bad as them.

But they are NOT punished fairly imo,that is why people get so angry at the British Justice System,it is a joke.

[Jack_]

Christ @ the mindsets of some people in this thread. Two wrongs certainly don't make a right, and the more we encourage violence and torture, the more it is going to happen. It's common sense, really. Whilst I don't agree with the ridiculously short sentences these disgusting people receive, some of the suggestions for 'punishments' made in this thread are absolutely disgusting. I don't know about most people, but I would much rather see a criminal suffer for decades on end in prison than killing them quickly. And I know that doesn't happen, but that is what needs to happen.

As far as 'inhumane' things go, the furthest I would go is leaving the criminal in a cell with no clothes, no water, no food, absolutely until they eventually die.

But as I've already said, it would then teach kids that we accept and promote violence and torture - and we'd end up with even more criminals than we have now.

[Tom4784]

If and when you become a parent one day, you might begin to understand. Till then keep your sanctimonious, mealymouthed judgments to yourself. And for the record I was not "attempting to justify" anything, I was stating what I would actually DO if that were my baby, and the judicial system let me down. Why would I feel the need to justify myself to you or any other liberal, laissez faire idiots who, unfortunately, seem to dominate the judiciary, handing out lenient sentences for such serious crimes as these.

"All it takes for the triumph of evil is for good men to stand by and do NOTHING". Ever heard of fighting fire with fire? Paedophiles cannot be cured, they are not able to be rehabilitated, so what is your answer, oh wise one?

My answer is that we punish people for their crimes, I'm not defending them but 'fighting fire with fire' is quite frankly stupid and short sighted.

If you're a parent surely you should be setting an example to your children by showing them that fair and honest justice is the only way to go? If we go down your path we might as well execute anyone even accused of a crime as chances are in your world they are guilty. What kind of message are you sending by saying you want people murdered or tortured for commiting crimes? At the end of the day Captial punishment IS murder at the end of the day.

I'm sorry but I must have missed that essay I wrote saying that these people deserve leniant sentences, care to send it to me? I hope they get the maximum sentence but killing them or anyone else simply makes us as bad as them. Whether you liked it or not you attempted to justify your proposed actions by saying that it was justice. It's not it's thuggish behavior what you in the past have so vehemently opposed, just because the target would be a guilty party doesn't make violence right or justified.

Lastly, I'm as entitled to my opinion as you regardless if I have children or not so you can stop playing that card right now.

[Angus]

No, I am not as bad as the perpetrators of such wicked crimes, I have not exploited, abused and harmed and sometimes killed a child for my own perverted pleasure, so that argument goes out the window. Spare me the bleeding heart, "civilised" attitude which is precisely the reason why we have such grotesque inhumane monsters in our midst.

Let's face it If Venables had been dealt with properly the first time round, he would not have had the opportunity to abuse more innocent children, so the fault lies equally with the judicial system, and the bleeding heart liberals who bang on about the inhumane treatment of irredeemable scum like this. As far as I'm concerned, the moment such scum commits an act as evil as this, they have revoked any claim to be treated like a human being. Let's hope someone you love, never mind your own precious child, never becomes a victim to such acts of depravity and abuse, and if they do, god forbid, I wonder how forgiving, civilised and reasonable you would be if the perpetrator got a laughably lenient sentence.

[Tom4784]

But they are NOT punished fairly imo,that is why people get so angry at the British Justice System,it is a joke.

That doesn't mean we can justify violence towards them, it makes us as bad as the thugs in the streets if we did that.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

I just got a warning for posting that picture of the bunny!

InOne hold me :bawling:

[BB_Eye]

The thing is, a mere deterrent is insufficient. Delivering capital punishment for crimes such as this doesn't stop abusers who are wired to treat children as objects with psychological disorders that are untreatable. Following the duration of their prison sentence, they should be placed under constant psychiatric supervision for the remainder of their lives. Given their inability to empathise on the most basic level and to differentiate between right and wrong, they cannot be released back into society. This is both humane and protects anybody else that the offenders might target in the future.

[BB_Eye]

I just got a warning for posting that picture of the bunny!

InOne hold me :bawling:
It was underage

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

It was underage

:shocked:

[Tom4784]

No, I am not as bad as the perpetrators of such wicked crimes, I have not exploited, abused and harmed and sometimes killed a child for my own perverted pleasure, so that argument goes out the window. Spare me the bleeding heart, "civilised" attitude which is precisely the reason why we have such grotesque inhumane monsters in our midst.

Let's face it If Venables had been dealt with properly the first time round, he would not have had the opportunity to abuse more innocent children, so the fault lies equally with the judicial system, and the bleeding heart liberals who bang on about the inhumane treatment of irredeemable scum like this. As far as I'm concerned, the moment such scum commits an act as evil as this, they have revoked any claim to be treated like a human being. Let's hope someone you love, never mind your own precious child, never becomes a victim to such acts of depravity and abuse, and if they do, god forbid, I wonder how forgiving, civilised and reasonable you would be if the perpetrator got a laughably lenient sentence.

Yeah you're not a bad as someone who's commited a violent act for wanting them murdered too...

We'll do things your way, how about we get rid of prisons and kill everyone instead? They might reoffend so we might as well off everyone with a criminal record and save us the time and bother. That would surely lead to a happy, safe and rosy world for all children wouldn't it?

We can't judge others if we commit violent acts ourselves, it's hypocrtical and it's wrong. The thing that SHOULD seperate civilians from criminals is our morality but where's the morality in torturing and murdering people and calling that justice? We need to be BETTER then the criminals we punish and murder and torture regardless the motivations is not rising above it.

The law system isn't perfect but it's better then what you're proposing. What's completely hilarious is that what you're proposing is a lot closer to something like the Shariah law, something you've argued against in other threads.

Call me a bleeding heart liberal all you like, it sums up your argument that you've had to insult me instead of arguing the points properly.

[InOne]

No, I am not as bad as the perpetrators of such wicked crimes, I have not exploited, abused and harmed and sometimes killed a child for my own perverted pleasure, so that argument goes out the window. Spare me the bleeding heart, "civilised" attitude which is precisely the reason why we have such grotesque inhumane monsters in our midst.

Let's face it If Venables had been dealt with properly the first time round, he would not have had the opportunity to abuse more innocent children, so the fault lies equally with the judicial system, and the bleeding heart liberals who bang on about the inhumane treatment of irredeemable scum like this. As far as I'm concerned, the moment such scum commits an act as evil as this, they have revoked any claim to be treated like a human being. Let's hope someone you love, never mind your own precious child, never becomes a victim to such acts of depravity and abuse, and if they do, god forbid, I wonder how forgiving, civilised and reasonable you would be if the perpetrator got a laughably lenient sentence.

No matter what way you look at it, you'd still be taking pleasure out of someone suffering and death. It's almost like a warped logical of what is right and wrong.
Killing off one Paedophile won't stop them all or worry them. They will do what they do, and make it harder for us to detect them. Shoving it more underground is worse for children. Has Capital Punisment ever worried serious criminals in America? No. All you want them dead for is so you can take pleause in their death, no matter how you try and dress it up.

[Shaun]

I find the people who get so emotionally invested in these stories worrying. There's of course no denying that a disgusting wrong has happened - but why does this provoke so much vitriol and violence in some of you? I think these kinds of stories are thrust into the limelight with the intention of blinding everyone to rationality.

I'd agree that the justice system isn't perfect. The leniency on some sentences [for example, a man who stabbed my cousin who consequently died was given a manslaughter charge that saw him serve 4 years] is incredibly unfair - it does to an extent give criminals a kind-of buy-out clause. But even that, a personal bias, shouldn't sensationalise the debate.

I just don't understand how all of these people on a keyboard can spit out such threats and bile. It's counter-productive, if anything.

[Angus]

My answer is that we punish people for their crimes, I'm not defending them but 'fighting fire with fire' is quite frankly stupid and short sighted.

If you're a parent surely you should be setting an example to your children by showing them that fair and honest justice is the only way to go? If we go down your path we might as well execute anyone even accused of a crime as chances are in your world they are guilty. What kind of message are you sending by saying you want people murdered or tortured for commiting crimes? At the end of the day Captial punishment IS murder at the end of the day.

I'm sorry but I must have missed that essay I wrote saying that these people deserve leniant sentences, care to send it to me? I hope they get the maximum sentence but killing them or anyone else simply makes us as bad as them. Whether you liked it or not you attempted to justify your proposed actions by saying that it was justice. It's not it's thuggish behavior what you in the past have so vehemently opposed, just because the target would be a guilty party doesn't make violence right or justified.

Lastly, I'm as entitled to my opinion as you regardless if I have children or not so you can stop playing that card right now.

:bored: pointless arguing, so I won't waste my time. Try getting your nose out of a book and face reality - no wonder this country is in the mess it is with people like you trying to take the moral high ground over emotive issues about which you have no understanding, experience or empathy. I can assure you I have NO need to justify myself to the right on brigade. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, that doesn't mean I have to accept its validity or relevance.
As to your last sentence, I beg to differ since you can have NO idea of what you would do if you were a parent of an abused child whose abuser got a laughably light sentence.

[MTVN]

No, I am not as bad as the perpetrators of such wicked crimes, I have not exploited, abused and harmed and sometimes killed a child for my own perverted pleasure, so that argument goes out the window. Spare me the bleeding heart, "civilised" attitude which is precisely the reason why we have such grotesque inhumane monsters in our midst.

Let's face it If Venables had been dealt with properly the first time round, he would not have had the opportunity to abuse more innocent children, so the fault lies equally with the judicial system, and the bleeding heart liberals who bang on about the inhumane treatment of irredeemable scum like this. As far as I'm concerned, the moment such scum commits an act as evil as this, they have revoked any claim to be treated like a human being. Let's hope someone you love, never mind your own precious child, never becomes a victim to such acts of depravity and abuse, and if they do, god forbid, I wonder how forgiving, civilised and reasonable you would be if the perpetrator got a laughably lenient sentence.

Oh ffs, would you stop with the "bleeding heart liberal" rhetoric, it's getting old now.

If you ask me, there should be a mix of reformation and retribution in prisons - they should serve time for their crime but they should try and be reformed at the same time, and shouldnt be released until they are considered to have done so. That's where we went wrong with Venables, it isnt that we didnt kill him.

The death penalty solves nothing, it is not an effective deterrent, and it just brings us down to their level.

[Tom4784]

:bored: pointless arguing, so I won't waste my time. Try getting your nose out of a book and face reality - no wonder this country is in the mess it is with people like you trying to take the moral high ground over emotive issues about which you have no understanding, experience or empathy. I can assure you I have NO need to justify myself to the right on brigade. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, that doesn't mean I have to accept its validity or relevance.
As to your last sentence, I beg to differ since you can have NO idea of what you would do if you were a parent of an abused child whose abuser got a laughably light sentence.

Back to getting personal with me again... this is dull Angus. keep it to the subject please.

Like Shaun said, Personal bias shouldn't sensationalise the debate and he has more reason then most to be spewing vitriol but he's not.

I agree that I probably wouldn't know what I'd do in that situation but I'd hope i'd keep some sense of rationality and realise that obsessing over it and attacking people would help no one, least of all my hypothetical child. I think I'd be more focused on trying to help my child get over such an horrific event rather then acting out the Saw series on the person that commited the crime.

It's not perfect but I prefer the law system we have now to your Tarrantino version of what should happen.

[Tom4784]

Oh ffs, would you stop with the "bleeding heart liberal" rhetoric, it's getting old now.

If you ask me, there should be a mix of reformation and retribution in prisons - they should serve time for their crime but they should try and be reformed at the same time, and shouldnt be released until they are considered to have done so. That's where we went wrong with Venables, it isnt that we didnt kill him.

The death penalty solves nothing, it is not an effective deterrent, and it just brings us down to their level.

Exactly, I agree completely.

[Tom]

I find the people who get so emotionally invested in these stories worrying. There's of course no denying that a disgusting wrong has happened - but why does this provoke so much vitriol and violence in some of you? I think these kinds of stories are thrust into the limelight with the intention of blinding everyone to rationality.

I'd agree that the justice system isn't perfect. The leniency on some sentences [for example, a man who stabbed my cousin who consequently died was given a manslaughter charge that saw him serve 4 years] is incredibly unfair - it does to an extent give criminals a kind-of buy-out clause. But even that, a personal bias, shouldn't sensationalise the debate.

I just don't understand how all of these people on a keyboard can spit out such threats and bile. It's counter-productive, if anything.

The reason sentences are so lenient is because the prison system currently has 85,000 prisoners and counting whilst there are only enough space for around 60,000. They're vastly overcrowded. A prison infrastructure is also far too expensive to justify yet more tax payers money on to piss in the ocean at a time when cuts are being made across the board. It might seem unfair but there is a lot of practicality behind it.

[BB_Eye]

Yeah you're not a bad as someone who's commited a violent act for wanting them murdered too...

We'll do things your way, how about we get rid of prisons and kill everyone instead? They might reoffend so we might as well off everyone with a criminal record and save us the time and bother. That would surely lead to a happy, safe and rosy world for all children wouldn't it?

We can't judge others if we commit violent acts ourselves, it's hypocrtical and it's wrong. The thing that SHOULD seperate civilians from criminals is our morality but where's the morality in torturing and murdering people and calling that justice? We need to be BETTER then the criminals we punish and murder and torture regardless the motivations is not rising above it.This is all well and good if you see violence, in and of itself, as morally wrong and human beings, irrespective of their actions, as inherently valuable and deserving of rights. But really, in a democracy, it is civilians who have rights, not humans. When people lose their citizenship, they have effectively broken a social contract and lose many of the rights they would have enjoyed as civilians. Under a custodial sentence, it would be a right to vote, freedom of movement and a right not to be held against your will. This is totally fair given that criminals are convicted for violating other people's rights. While I am not in favour of capital punishment, I strongly disagree with and resent the notion that people who advocate the execution of the worst criminals are "just as bad".

[Tom4784]

This is all well and good if you see violence, in and of itself, as morally wrong and human beings, irrespective of their actions, as inherently valuable and deserving of rights. But really, in a democracy, it is civilians who have rights, not humans. When people lose their citizenship, they have effectively broken a social contract and lose many of the rights they would have enjoyed as civilians. Under a custodial sentence, it would be a right to vote, freedom of movement and a right not to be held against your will. This is totally fair given that criminals are convicted for violating other people's rights. While I am not in favour of capital punishment, I strongly disagree with and resent the notion that people who advocate the execution of the worst criminals are "just as bad".

I just believe we shouldn't have to lower ourselves with it, we should be better then that, not so much that I think criminals deserve all the rights they enjoy now. I think it was MTVN that said that capital punishment isn't a deterrent and that's completely correct. We need to look into deterrents and look at the state of our prisons before we dust off our executioner cowls. I can see the merits of capital Punishment don't get me wrong but I just can't agree with it.

To me it's murder.

[Kazanne]

Christ @ the mindsets of some people in this thread. Two wrongs certainly don't make a right, and the more we encourage violence and torture, the more it is going to happen. It's common sense, really. Whilst I don't agree with the ridiculously short sentences these disgusting people receive, some of the suggestions for 'punishments' made in this thread are absolutely disgusting. I don't know about most people, but I would much rather see a criminal suffer for decades on end in prison than killing them quickly. And I know that doesn't happen, but that is what needs to happen.

As far as 'inhumane' things go, the furthest I would go is leaving the criminal in a cell with no clothes, no water, no food, absolutely until they eventually die.

But as I've already said, it would then teach kids that we accept and promote violence and torture - and we'd end up with even more criminals than we have now.

This coming from one who thought the 'jokes' made about the toddler taped to a wall were ok to laugh at,lol,oh dear and as it happenes I would prefer to see a criminal be behind bars for decades,but they don't do they?they get a cushy ride,so you can't wonder why people get angry,so stop pontificating and TRY and understand where some of us are coming from,so do you think leaving one to die of cold,thirst or starvation is more humane than ,chopping their hands off or steralizing them?Why should we be humane to things that harm our kids,Would you feel the same if it was YOUR child?

[Kazanne]

The reason sentences are so lenient is because the prison system currently has 85,000 prisoners and counting whilst there are only enough space for around 60,000. They're vastly overcrowded. A prison infrastructure is also far too expensive to justify yet more tax payers money on to piss in the ocean at a time when cuts are being made across the board. It might seem unfair but there is a lot of practicality behind it.

Shows the 'soft' option isn't working then!

[Mystic Mock]

Article from The Independent today:

"Girlfriend 'took lead role in sexual abuse of baby'


Wednesday, 6 October 2010


A paedophile said in court today he was told what to do by his then girlfriend as the pair sexually assaulted and took photographs of a five-month-old baby.


Colin Blanchard said it was Tracy Dawber, 44, who took the lead in the abuse.


Dawber, formerly of Bedford Road, Southport, Merseyside, denies the assault and permitting Blanchard to take the five indecent pictures.


Blanchard, 40, formerly from Rochdale, Lancs, is in custody awaiting sentence after admitting his involvement in the alleged assault by Dawber.


He told the jury at Winchester Crown Court today that Dawber had lifted the child's clothes to show it had no nappy on and he said Dawber told him to look at the child and to take the photographs.


"I was quite passive in the whole thing. I was taking the photographs as instructed," he said.


"I took a photograph and she asked me to show it to her and then I took another and I showed it again and she repositioned the child accordingly."


He said there had been sexual talk during the taking of the images but not much was said afterwards.


The pair had first had normal sex when they met in 2007 before moving on to what Blanchard described to the jury as an "A to Z of sexual desires and fantasies" and the pair discussed child sex.


During cross-examination by Deborah Gould, Blanchard admitted he was selfish and arrogant, that he lied to police and had tried to blame others.


He admitted he had been involved with many other woman including two named in court as Vanessa George and Tracy Lyons.


He had also sent images of child sex to two unnamed women, he admitted to the jury.


He said before his arrest he had been living a "double life".


Miss Gould asked: Did you know what the truth was at that time?"


Blanchard: "No".


Miss Gould: "But you know now?"


Blanchard: "Yes, as strange as it may seem."


Earlier the jury heard Dawber admitted it was her holding the baby in the photographs but denied the alleged wrongdoing.


In interview Dawber told police she could not remember the pictures being taken, but Simon Morgan, prosecuting, told the jury the Nokia phone always flashed when it took the pictures.


He said some had been taken from only about 9in away on August 20 2008.


"The Crown say the defendant was able to see the phone being used," he said.


Mr Morgan said the pair met in 2007 and had a sexual relationship and that she had "linked herself to his grossly unacceptable activities".


She described him as a sociable person but said she had been "disgusted when she heard on the news what he had been involved with".


Blanchard was caught in June 2009 when a work colleague discovered child pornography on his computer, the court heard.


He was arrested at Manchester airport and a connection via a Facebook account was made with Dawber.


Officers also uncovered the mobile phone from Blanchard's Volvo that contained the images of the baby, which were shown to the jury. It also showed Dawber in explicit poses.


When arrested in November 2009 Dawber would not confirm it was her holding the baby but she later admitted it.


Officers found child pornography on her computer that was the same as that discovered on Blanchard's and search words on her machine linked to child porn such as "Lolita". A PDF file containing stories about incest was also found. "




I just can't get my head around this story - but the thought of it just makes me sick to my stomach. The perpetrators can't possibly be part of the human race - I know what I would like to do to them, and it involves a chainsaw and a noose. Sadly under our useless justice system they will get just a few years in jail before being released to do it all over again.

what about the parents that strapped the toddler to a wall? they should be dead and so should these.

[Kazanne]

Well the Social Services would obviously get involved, you can't justify Inhumanity as justice Kazanne. The point of the law is that we are better then the criminals and that they are punished fairly and justly, not that we torture them and become as bad as them.

The Social services,Oh yes like the ones who saved baby Peter,Victoria Climbie,Kyra Isshak,Jessica Randal,Brandon Muir,I could reel a page off.I don't think we ARE better than the criminals if we sit back and do nothing,I am not saying lets have a mass slaughter,but at least let the punishment fit the crime,some people are evil,simple as.

[Kazanne]

Christ @ the mindsets of some people in this thread. Two wrongs certainly don't make a right, and the more we encourage violence and torture, the more it is going to happen. It's common sense, really. Whilst I don't agree with the ridiculously short sentences these disgusting people receive, some of the suggestions for 'punishments' made in this thread are absolutely disgusting. I don't know about most people, but I would much rather see a criminal suffer for decades on end in prison than killing them quickly. And I know that doesn't happen, but that is what needs to happen.

As far as 'inhumane' things go, the furthest I would go is leaving the criminal in a cell with no clothes, no water, no food, absolutely until they eventually die.

But as I've already said, it would then teach kids that we accept and promote violence and torture - and we'd end up with even more criminals than we have now.


PMSL,you've got some room to talk about peoples mindsets,lol you the one who thought jokes about kids being taped to a wall were funny,but of course you had the excuse that you thought the incident was terrible!! but the jokes made up about it were funny,Go figure.

[setanta]

This is all well and good if you see violence, in and of itself, as morally wrong and human beings, irrespective of their actions, as inherently valuable and deserving of rights. But really, in a democracy, it is civilians who have rights, not humans. When people lose their citizenship, they have effectively broken a social contract and lose many of the rights they would have enjoyed as civilians. Under a custodial sentence, it would be a right to vote, freedom of movement and a right not to be held against your will. This is totally fair given that criminals are convicted for violating other people's rights. While I am not in favour of capital punishment, I strongly disagree with and resent the notion that people who advocate the execution of the worst criminals are "just as bad".

True David, but I've always loved the quote - can't remember who said it- that goes something like... "A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." Think it was Gandhi.

Anyway, the point being is that paedophiles are weak, they're incurable - as of right now anyway - and obviously they're one of the biggest ethical problems that we face as a society, you know?

The other thing is that most of them don't last pi$$ing time once they're in prison, unless of course they're sent to one of those institutions as a study subject.

[MTVN]

what about the parents that strapped the toddler to a wall? they should be dead and so should these.

We should bring back the death penalty for people who tape a kid to a wall now?

:bored:

[Jack_]

PMSL,you've got some room to talk about peoples mindsets,lol you the one who thought jokes about kids being taped to a wall were funny,but of course you had the excuse that you thought the incident was terrible!! but the jokes made up about it were funny,Go figure.

Yes, because surprise ****ing surprise, they're called jokes. J-o-k-e-s. Jokes. Do you know what that word means?

I said the incident was terrible - and it was. And so is this. But the jokes were funny because I have a dark sense of humour. I thought we established this and moved on? Evidently not. So I take it I still like to torture animals [or whatever the laughable thing you said was]?

At the end of the day having a dark sense of humour [which is not causing anyone any physical harm] and wishing to inflict physical pain/torture on people are two completely different things - the latter of which is far, far worse.

[Tom]

Shows the 'soft' option isn't working then!

I don't think there is a problem with the judicial system as such, just the way the punishments themselves are dealt with. Prison isn't what it used to be, its now more about rehabilitation than punishment and they're made quite comfortable. Some prisons allow their prisoners to have XBox's in their cells! Opening a can of worms, prisoners have just as many human rights as we do. Do they really deserve it after violating someone elses? It seems extreme but I think a return to Victorian style incarceration is needed and the numbers would soon drop.

[Jack_]

and as it happenes I would prefer to see a criminal be behind bars for decades,but they don't do they?they get a cushy ride,

And I didn't dispute that...infact I said I knew that wasn't the case. But there's not much I can do about that, is there? But it doesn't mean instead we need to resort to the death penalty and mass slaughter and torture, does it?

Would you feel the same if it was YOUR child?

Yes, yes I would. Because I wouldn't want to teach my other children [if I had any] or any other children that I knew that torture and violence and murder is right. What good is there in that? Teach 'em early and then let them turn into a murderer or a bully when they get older? Yeah, because that's really what I want them becoming. Come on...use your brain for once. Two wrongs don't make a right. Most of these things are taught. A bully was oftened once bullied themselves, paedophiles were often sexually abused when they were children. So by teaching our kids that violence, murder and torture is an acceptable form of punishment what good are we really doing? Go ahead and do that if you like but at the end of the day we're going to end up living in a even less-safer world than we are in now.

[Kazanne]

And I didn't dispute that...infact I said I knew that wasn't the case. But there's not much I can do about that, is there? But it doesn't mean instead we need to resort to the death penalty and mass slaughter and torture, does it?



Yes, yes I would. Because I wouldn't want to teach my other children [if I had any] or any other children that I knew that torture and violence and murder is right. What good is there in that? Teach 'em early and then let them turn into a murderer or a bully when they get older? Yeah, because that's really what I want them becoming. Come on...use your brain for once. Two wrongs don't make a right. Most of these things are taught. A bully was oftened once bullied themselves, paedophiles were often sexually abused when they were children. So by teaching our kids that violence, murder and torture is an acceptable form of punishment what good are we really doing? Go ahead and do that if you like but at the end of the day we're going to end up living in a even less-safer world than we are in now.

Stop getting your pampers in a twist,it must piss you off so much that I don't agree with you about anything,You have no kids,I have ,I also know the pain of people I know and love losing a child to violence,so don't tell me to use my brain,my brain is at least in gear and Yes I know what a joke is ,I laugh at different ones to you,I have NEVER found a joke about abuse or murder funny,thank God,and who advocated mass slaughter,torture and the death penalty!!!?

[Jack_]

Stop getting your pampers in a twist,it must piss you off so much that I don't agree with you about anything,

Not really... :joker:

You have no kids,I have ,I also know the pain of people I know and love losing a child to violence,so don't tell me to use my brain,my brain is at least in gear

Well, really it's not if you want to teach your kids/other kids that violence and torture is a good form of punishment?

and Yes I know what a joke is ,I laugh at different ones to you,I have NEVER found a joke about abuse or murder funny,thank God,

Exactly. So why can't you accept that I have a different sense of humour to you and that just because I have a different sense of humour to you I don't condone or participate in torture of animals/humans? It's quite pathetic, really.

and who advocated mass slaughter,torture and the death penalty!!!?

That is the conclusion you would come to based on your posts in this thread...

[joeysteele]

I read this thread and wanted to contribute to it but kazanne has said everything I would have wanted to say and she is 100% spot on.
Whatever 'evil' is or means as far as life goes,then people who abuse children are it,pure and simple.
These stories make me feel sick and what concerns me is just how many people are getting away with this rotten abuse, day in day out, every week every year. Generally in the childs own home too where it should not only be safe but also feel safe.

Well said kazanne on all counts, you speak for everyone with even the slightest shred of decency.

[Tom4784]

The Social services,Oh yes like the ones who saved baby Peter,Victoria Climbie,Kyra Isshak,Jessica Randal,Brandon Muir,I could reel a page off.I don't think we ARE better than the criminals if we sit back and do nothing,I am not saying lets have a mass slaughter,but at least let the punishment fit the crime,some people are evil,simple as.

Calm Down De Niro, you've already replied to that point before.

But they are NOT punished fairly imo,that is why people get so angry at the British Justice System,it is a joke.

At the end of the day the justice system is what it is, if we had a system based around most suggestions I've heard here the world would be worse then it is now. Jack said it perfectly, two wrongs don't make a right no matter how you cut it.

If we end up lobotomizing people, torturing them, killing them, taking away bodily functions then the only thing that seperates us from the criminals is a gravely misplaced sense of justice. It's up to us to be BETTER then the people we judge, not to play them at their own game. You do that and you lose.

[MTVN]

Calm Down De Niro, you've already replied to that point before.



At the end of the day the justice system is what it is, if we had a system based around most suggestions I've heard here the world would be worse then it is now. Jack said it perfectly, two wrongs don't make a right no matter how you cut it.

If we end up lobotomizing people, torturing them, killing them, taking away bodily functions then the only thing that seperates us from the criminals is a gravely misplaced sense of justice. It's up to us to be BETTER then the people we judge, not to play them at their own game. You do that and you lose.

I agree, that is the bottom line here imo.

[Kazanne]

Not really... :joker:



Well, really it's not if you want to teach your kids/other kids that violence and torture is a good form of punishment?



Exactly. So why can't you accept that I have a different sense of humour to you and that just because I have a different sense of humour to you I don't condone or participate in torture of animals/humans? It's quite pathetic, really.



That is the conclusion you would come to based on your posts in this thread...

Mind reader now are we,lol,i do accept you have a dark sense of humour ,it doesn't mean I have to agree with it,and where did i ever say i wanted to teach my children that violence and torture is a good form of punishment?All I said was 'chop their hands off' or 'steralize them' both said as throw away lines as people say in anger or disbelief,they also say "I'll rip your head off" it doesn't mean we wish to carry it through,blimey!!stop taking things so literally ffs,but on second thoughts,IF they had no hands they would never hurt anyone else and if they were steralized they'de have no kids to abuse so perhaps it's worth a thought:joker:We will never agree,so perhaps it's better we just dont answer each others posts,there,problem solved:xyxwave:

[Tom4784]

I agree, that is the bottom line here imo.

Yeah that's what I've been trying to say really.

[Kazanne]

Calm Down De Niro, you've already replied to that point before.



At the end of the day the justice system is what it is, if we had a system based around most suggestions I've heard here the world would be worse then it is now. Jack said it perfectly, two wrongs don't make a right no matter how you cut it.

If we end up lobotomizing people, torturing them, killing them, taking away bodily functions then the only thing that seperates us from the criminals is a gravely misplaced sense of justice. It's up to us to be BETTER then the people we judge, not to play them at their own game. You do that and you lose.

What was the point of the De Niro remark,was that a joke also?

[Tom4784]

What was the point of the De Niro remark,was that a joke also?

That was because you were being slightly over agressive with everyone and considering the subject matter it was another Taxi Driver reference. So yes it was a joke, calm down.

[Kazanne]

That was because you were being slightly over agressive with everyone and considering the subject matter it was another Taxi Driver reference. So yes it was a joke, calm down.

I am splitting my sides here(NOT)I had the impression this was a serious debates thread and we should post our opinions about things that interest us,unless of course they are opinions you disagree with,I get it now!!!

[lily.]

We need to lock up child sex offenders, and keep them locked up.

Experts say they can't be cured, so why allow them the freedom to re-offend.

[Tom4784]

I am splitting my sides here(NOT)I had the impression this was a serious debates thread and we should post our opinions about things that interest us,unless of course they are opinions you disagree with,I get it now!!!

There's a difference between posting your opinion and cramming it down people's throats and positively screaming anyone down who doesn't agree Kazanne.

By all means dissect my last point if you can instead of trying to divert attention away from it...you know...debate something?

Here's my last post, try to argue against it.

At the end of the day the justice system is what it is, if we had a system based around most suggestions I've heard here the world would be worse then it is now. Jack said it perfectly, two wrongs don't make a right no matter how you cut it.

If we end up lobotomizing people, torturing them, killing them, taking away bodily functions then the only thing that seperates us from the criminals is a gravely misplaced sense of justice. It's up to us to be BETTER then the people we judge, not to play them at their own game. You do that and you lose.

[Kazanne]

We need to lock up child sex offenders, and keep them locked up.

Experts say they can't be cured, so why allow them the freedom to re-offend.

Spot on Lily

[joeysteele]

You will also get idiots who argue that we should treat this scum in a civilised manner. Why? What would be the point in keeping vermin like this in the land of the living to inflict pain on innocent children if they get half a chance. If I were the parent of an abused child I'd be waiting outside the prison gates on their release to inflict my own brand of justice since the judicial system in this country is pathetically inadequate.

Excellent post.

[Shaun]

You have no kids,I have

you say that like it's an achievement.

[Kazanne]

There's a difference between posting your opinion and cramming it down people's throats and positively screaming anyone down who doesn't agree Kazanne.

By all means dissect my last point if you can instead of trying to divert attention away from it...you know...debate something?

I have my reasons for hating child abusers,I haven't screamed anyone down,I don't care who doesn't agree with me,i DO care that certain people find that if something is said in a 'joke' then it's ok to laugh at,but each to their own.

[Iceman]

*walks in, looks around, goes back to arguing with pregnant lesbian woman*

[Kazanne]

you say that like it's an achievement.

It IS an achievment and the best thing in the world,to have a child is or should be a blessing.

[lily.]

If they were locked away for life.. and I do mean 'life' .. until the day they die, then we wouldn't have to worry about them hurting another child.

I don't agree with taking the law into our own hands. Where would be the point in that? Where does that lead society? The problem in this country is the lenient laws we have. If criminals got proper sentences appropriate to the crime, then the public wouldn't be ready to dole out their own unique brand of twisted justice.

If the law were changed and sentences were given which reflect the severity of the crime... and the public felt safe as a result, there wouldn't be so many people ready to take the vigilante route..

However, taking the vigilante route is not the answer to the problem. It will only create wider problems. Who would decide where to draw the line? When would it be okay to deal with things yourself?





That all being said, if it were my baby, I'd kill the ******.
(I just sh!t all over my previous points with that last sentence.. )

[joeysteele]

The Social services,Oh yes like the ones who saved baby Peter,Victoria Climbie,Kyra Isshak,Jessica Randal,Brandon Muir,I could reel a page off.I don't think we ARE better than the criminals if we sit back and do nothing,I am not saying lets have a mass slaughter,but at least let the punishment fit the crime,some people are evil,simple as.

Another excellent post,
I think Angus58 and kazanne have spoken for the vast majority of decent people in the UK with their opinions on this issue.


A saying I like goes something like this,
for evil to thrive,the good just need to sit and do nothing.
Sadly that is exactly waht happens as to the abuse of Children,its time that all changed and if massively harsher penalties are part of the answer then so be it.

[Tom4784]

I have my reasons for hating child abusers,I haven't screamed anyone down,I don't care who doesn't agree with me,i DO care that certain people find that if something is said in a 'joke' then it's ok to laugh at,but each to their own.

I'm not saying don't hate them but there's a line between hating them and saying they should be tortured and murdered like you have throughout the whole topic.

[Kazanne]

If they were locked away for life.. and I do mean 'life' .. until the day they die, then we wouldn't have to worry about them hurting another child.

I don't agree with taking the law into our own hands. Where would be the point in that? Where does that lead society? The problem in this country is the lenient laws we have. If criminals got proper sentences appropriate to the crime, then the public wouldn't be ready to dole out their own unique brand of twisted justice.

If the law were changed and sentences were given which reflect the severity of the crime... and the public felt safe as a result, there wouldn't be so many people ready to take the vigilante route..

However, taking the vigilante route is not the answer to the problem. It will only create wider problems. Who would decide where to draw the line? When would it be okay to deal with things yourself?





That all being said, if it were my baby, I'd kill the ******.
(I just sh!t all over my previous points with that last sentence.. )

LOL,at your last sentence,I agree IF the criminals were dealt with properly,people would be happier with the system as it is ,it's ok to do what you like as you will be cared for by the tax payers and may even get a new identity!!!

[lily.]

The problem is with the system. It has to change.

The reason for the decline in society is the lax judicial system. That's a fact.

[Kazanne]

I'm not saying don't hate them but there's a line between hating them and saying they should be tortured and murdered like you have throughout the whole topic.

Where have i said they should be tortured or murdered!!? all I've said is that they should get their hands chopped off or be steralized!! both throw away lines which some have taken literally,blimey are you sure it's me who needs to calm down? but there are a few I'de like to torture!!!lol,calm down it's a throw away line again,couldn't hurt a criminal could we:hugesmile:

[setanta]

If they were locked away for life.. and I do mean 'life' .. until the day they die, then we wouldn't have to worry about them hurting another child.

I don't agree with taking the law into our own hands. Where would be the point in that? Where does that lead society? The problem in this country is the lenient laws we have. If criminals got proper sentences appropriate to the crime, then the public wouldn't be ready to dole out their own unique brand of twisted justice.

If the law were changed and sentences were given which reflect the severity of the crime... and the public felt safe as a result, there wouldn't be so many people ready to take the vigilante route..

However, taking the vigilante route is not the answer to the problem. It will only create wider problems. Who would decide where to draw the line? When would it be okay to deal with things yourself?





That all being said, if it were my baby, I'd kill the ******.
(I just sh!t all over my previous points with that last sentence.. )

Oh, that's totally different. If anything like that were to happen to any of my beautiful cousins I'd drop the $£"!, no question, and then role around in my own faeces so I can claim temporary insanity.

[Tom4784]

The problem is with the system. It has to change.

The reason for the decline in society is the lax judicial system. That's a fact.

True and I agree with that and think that longer sentences need to be utilised more but I can't condone captial punishment or vigilantism. It does nothing for the victims and cheapens us all.

[lily.]

Setanta, if you regularly roll around in your own faeces, you can't use that defense though. ;)

[setanta]

If you regularly roll around in your own faeces, you can't use that defense though. ;)

Nah, only for special occasions that I hope I never have to go through. But yeah, have to have your defense all sorted out before you do him in.

[Tom4784]

Where have i said they should be tortured or murdered!!? all I've said is that they should get their hands chopped off or be steralized!! both throw away lines which some have taken literally,blimey are you sure it's me who needs to calm down? but there are a few I'de like to torture!!!lol,calm down it's a throw away line again,couldn't hurt a criminal could we:hugesmile:

So hands being chopped off doesn't come under torture in your books?

[MTVN]

We need to lock up child sex offenders, and keep them locked up.

Experts say they can't be cured, so why allow them the freedom to re-offend.

I dont think it is necessarily true that sex offenders are "incurable", there are ways of rehabilitating them so that they dont reoffend.

[lily.]

True and I agree with that and think that longer sentences need to be utilised more but I can't condone captial punishment or vigilantism. It does nothing for the vicitims and cheapens us all.

100% agree. That's the point I made before about where we draw the line..

Who decides it's okay to kick the sh!t out of one guy because he robbed an old lady, but not okay to do it to another because he robbed RS McColl?

That's a lame example, but laws are there for a reason. They're supposed to protect us, and create a society we can all live in safely. Unfortunately, the laws in this country seem to protect the criminals more than they protect the victims. That's the reason decent people turn to crime to 'get even'.

I don't see this changing though. It's gotten worse over the years, and we're now known for our 'soft touch' legal system.

[Shaun]

It IS an achievment and the best thing in the world,to have a child is or should be a blessing.

That's all very swish and dandy, but I highly doubt that the walls of your pregnant womb were imbued with an elixir of knowledge. I hate this assumption that all teenagers and childless parties in this argument cannot understand the severity of the crime committed here, because they haven't fulfilled a universally available biological process.

It's interesting what lily and setanta said - if this were their children they would want to rip them apart. And that's understandable - there is no underestimating the personal hatred and anger they, or you, or I, would go through in that scenario.

However, here, the crime is entirely neutral to all of us. And yet we're divided into two camps: those with composure, and those citing violence. That is the very core distinction here.

Of course, citing violence and causing it are very different things. But that's only in this instance - for example, looking at child porn and taking part in child porn are very different. Does that make the observant form (the former) any less severe? No, because they are still practicing in child pornography. You, and angus58, and whoever else has posted in agreement here, are practicing in violence.

[Kazanne]

Another excellent post,
I think Angus58 and kazanne have spoken for the vast majority of decent people in the UK with their opinions on this issue.


A saying I like goes something like this,
for evil to thrive,the good just need to sit and do nothing.
Sadly that is exactly waht happens as to the abuse of Children,its time that all changed and if massively harsher penalties are part of the answer then so be it.

That is the quote Joey and it's so true

[Angus]

I have my reasons for hating child abusers,I haven't screamed anyone down,I don't care who doesn't agree with me,i DO care that certain people find that if something is said in a 'joke' then it's ok to laugh at,but each to their own.

Like you, Kazanne, I have my own reasons for emotional investment in this issue, and I don't feel the need to justify myself to anyone. If some people can't stop and consider why you or I might feel so passionately about this highly emotive subject, it just goes to show why paedophiles are literally getting away with murder and when it comes to "human rights", the law seems to favour the scum of the earth over the victims. Yes, I will play the parent card, since someone who has never had kids has no idea of the strength and depth of love and protectiveness one feels for your own child. Let's hope the FMs on here, most of whom are still wet behind the ears, never have to face the agony of having their own flesh and blood abused by some predatory paedophile.

The fact that a poster on here has actually asked you if you consider your children an achievement is staggeringly ignorant, and gives great insight into the value they place on a child. There is absolutely NO way that a parent would not do anything to get justice for their abused child IF the judicial system is not prepared to do the job. The FMs on here preaching about compassion and civilised behaviour can preen themselves all they want on their high horses whilst patting each other on the back for being oh so reasonable and superior, but I guarantee if ever such a dreadful thing happened to their own flesh and blood, their attitudes would be entirely different.

[Lucy.]

Absoloutly sickening, but I completely agree taking the law into your own hands is not the way, although I do understand why people feel that way, especially family and parents.

[MTVN]

That's all very swish and dandy, but I highly doubt that the walls of your pregnant womb were imbued with an elixir of knowledge. I hate this assumption that all teenagers and childless parties in this argument cannot understand the severity of the crime committed here, because they haven't fulfilled a universally available biological process.

It's interesting what lily and setanta said - if this were their children they would want to rip them apart. And that's understandable - there is no underestimating the personal hatred and anger they, or you, or I, would go through in that scenario.

However, here, the crime is entirely neutral to all of us. And yet we're divided into two camps: those with composure, and those citing violence. That is the very core distinction here.

Of course, citing violence and causing it are very different things. But that's only in this instance - for example, looking at child porn and taking part in child porn are very different. Does that make the observant form (the former) any less severe? No, because they are still practicing in child pornography. You, and angus58, and whoever else has posted in agreement here, are practicing in violence.

Good post Shaun.

[Tom4784]

That's all very swish and dandy, but I highly doubt that the walls of your pregnant womb were imbued with an elixir of knowledge. I hate this assumption that all teenagers and childless parties in this argument cannot understand the severity of the crime committed here, because they haven't fulfilled a universally available biological process.

It's interesting what lily and setanta said - if this were their children they would want to rip them apart. And that's understandable - there is no underestimating the personal hatred and anger they, or you, or I, would go through in that scenario.

However, here, the crime is entirely neutral to all of us. And yet we're divided into two camps: those with composure, and those citing violence. That is the very core distinction here.

Of course, citing violence and causing it are very different things. But that's only in this instance - for example, looking at child porn and taking part in child porn are very different. Does that make the observant form (the former) any less severe? No, because they are still practicing in child pornography. You, and angus58, and whoever else has posted in agreement here, are practicing in violence.

Post of the week.

[Kazanne]

That's all very swish and dandy, but I highly doubt that the walls of your pregnant womb were imbued with an elixir of knowledge. I hate this assumption that all teenagers and childless parties in this argument cannot understand the severity of the crime committed here, because they haven't fulfilled a universally available biological process.

It's interesting what lily and setanta said - if this were their children they would want to rip them apart. And that's understandable - there is no underestimating the personal hatred and anger they, or you, or I, would go through in that scenario.

However, here, the crime is entirely neutral to all of us. And yet we're divided into two camps: those with composure, and those citing violence. That is the very core distinction here.

Of course, citing violence and causing it are very different things. But that's only in this instance - for example, looking at child porn and taking part in child porn are very different. Does that make the observant form (the former) any less severe? No, because they are still practicing in child pornography. You, and angus58, and whoever else has posted in agreement here, are practicing in violence.

How do you know what crime is neutral to people?No one is inciting violence,people write things like that all the time it doesn't mean they would ever carry it out,Have you ever said you would kill someone,most of us have in anger,they are throw away lines and people are taking them too literally,having said that,I have every reason to feel as i do,it's not for this forum,but some criminals are beyond help and a slap on the wrist will never make them behave!!!

[Kazanne]

Post of the week.

Well of course it would be,LOL

[Angus]

Absoloutly sickening, but I completely agree taking the law into your own hands is not the way, although I do understand why people feel that way, especially family and parents.

People need to read the posts properly - IF the judicial system is not prepared to do the right thing and hand out appropriate and stiff sentences, is it any wonder that the parents and families of abused children want justice for their children? Unfortunately the Law these days is less to do with justice and more to do with technicalities and the "human rights" of the inhuman scum that commit such horrendous crimes.

[setanta]

I dont think it is necessarily true that sex offenders are "incurable", there are ways of rehabilitating them so that they dont reoffend.

Quite a number of them do and, because of it being such a taboo subject in today's society, not many in depth studies have been made and it's been fairly neglected by the medical community: there's no real empirical evidence or common practices being used when dealing with Paedophilia. Actually, you should watch Louis Theroux's documentary to see how the States are dealing with the problem... it's laughable and quite pathetic in a way really.

[joeysteele]

I thimk Angus58 and kazanne have made excellent points on here as to this issue, there is no neutrality on an issue like this, Children cannot speak for themselves so we have to.

All people need to do is think, what if this was their little Brother, Sister, Niece,Nephew, Friends child and more to the point their child being abused,then what would they say.

All kazanne and Angus58 are saying is that the abuse of Children cannot be allowed to go on, the law at present does not deal with this in the way it should.
I hope that will change, but think if it was your child or a child you knew, what would your thinking really be and if being totally honest I doubt it would differ in those circumstances from kazanne and Angus58.

Children need our support and vigilance, nothing maddens me more than a child being abused by people with no excuse and I mean no excuse for doing so.
It is likely the lowest act any one can do against a defenceless child,it can never be justified and on this isuue the punishment can never be severe enough.
Virtually 'none' of the perpetrators of these crimes against children ever want help or think of seeking help as to their 'evil' thoughts until they are caught, fact.

[Lucy.]

People need to read the posts properly - IF the judicial system is not prepared to do the right thing and hand out appropriate and stiff sentences, is it any wonder that the parents and families of abused children want justice for their children? Unfortunately the Law these days is less to do with justice and more to do with technicalities and the "human rights" of the inhuman scum that commit such horrendous crimes.

How ironic. People need to read the posts properly, i.e. you. I said I UNDERSTAND why people want justice for their children, but ending someone's life wether their is a reason for it or not is making you a killer whichever way you choose to look at it. We are not here to play God and choose who dies and who does not. We are also not here to strip people of human rights, taking someone's right to food and protection away from them is unethical and inhumane and why would you want to stoop to that level? Loss of freedom is the punishment of prison which many people fail to realise. Besides, where do you draw the line with what is and what isn't worth death? Who are you to make that distinction? And don't spout off to me about me not being a parent and not understanding, just because you have a child doesn't give you the right to be immoral.

[Kazanne]

Like you, Kazanne, I have my own reasons for emotional investment in this issue, and I don't feel the need to justify myself to anyone. If some people can't stop and consider why you or I might feel so passionately about this highly emotive subject, it just goes to show why paedophiles are literally getting away with murder and when it comes to "human rights", the law seems to favour the scum of the earth over the victims. Yes, I will play the parent card, since someone who has never had kids has no idea of the strength and depth of love and protectiveness one feels for your own child. Let's hope the FMs on here, most of whom are still wet behind the ears, never have to face the agony of having their own flesh and blood abused by some predatory paedophile.

The fact that a poster on here has actually asked you if you consider your children an achievement is staggeringly ignorant, and gives great insight into the value they place on a child. There is absolutely NO way that a parent would not do anything to get justice for their abused child IF the judicial system is not prepared to do the job. The FMs on here preaching about compassion and civilised behaviour can preen themselves all they want on their high horses whilst patting each other on the back for being oh so reasonable and superior, but I guarantee if they ever such a dreadful thing happened to their own flesh and blood, their attitudes would be entirely different.

I find it amusing that people think we on the net are separate from the real world,they do not think we know people who have suffered or that we are talking from experience,they just assume we are non identities arguing for the sake of it,and yes Angus you can bet if it happened to them they would not be so 'forgiving',You have given us a great debating topic anyway,i got into trouble as usual,but i refuse to agree with people just to appease them.lets hope that little baby is removed and lives a happy safe life.

[MTVN]

Quite a number of them do and, because of it being such a taboo subject in today's society, not many in depth studies have been made and it's been fairly neglected by the medical community: there's no real empirical evidence or common practices being used when dealing with Paedophilia. Actually, you should watch Louis Theroux's documentary to see how the States are dealing with the problem... it's laughable and quite pathetic in a way really.

I did a quick google search and yeah from what I saw it seems that most rehabilitation techniques have poor success rates. I did see some of that Louis Theroux documentary I think, the one where sex offenders are locked up in that mental hospital?

[Kazanne]

How ironic. People need to read the posts properly, i.e. you. I said I UNDERSTAND why people want justice for their children, but ending someone's life wether their is a reason for it or not is making you a killer whichever way you choose to look at it. We are not here to play God and choose who dies and who does not. We are also not here to strip people of human rights, taking someone's right to food and protection away from them is unethical and inhumane and why would you want to stoop to that level? Loss of freedom is the punishment of prison which many people fail to realise. Besides, where do you draw the line with what is and what isn't worth death? Who are you to make that distinction? And don't spout off to me about me not being a parent and not understanding, just because you have a child doesn't give you the right to be immoral.

I think you should think before you say those things to Angus.maybe you should re- read her post.a bit of sensitivity here would be nice.

[Lucy.]

I think you should think before you say those things to Angus.maybe you should re- read her post.a bit of sensitivity here would be nice.

I'm not going to explain myself to you, this is the third time now I have said I completely understand why parents want justice for their children, but killing the perpetrator is not the answer.

[setanta]

How do you know what crime is neutral to people?No one is inciting violence,people write things like that all the time it doesn't mean they would ever carry it out,Have you ever said you would kill someone,most of us have in anger,they are throw away lines and people are taking them too literally,having said that,I have every reason to feel as i do,it's not for this forum,but some criminals are beyond help and a slap on the wrist will never make them behave!!!

But you don't understand, do you? It's an illness... these people are sick and acting on compulsions that are beyond their control. I prefer to think of it rationally rather than indulge in emotion when we're dealing with such a taboo subject.

Look, maybe they'll never be cured, but surely we shouldn't be condoning the torture or death of another human being just because they're beyond help? They were burning people at the stake a few centuries ago for problems that we've found cures for or learned more about through science and analysis.

[setanta]

I did a quick google search and yeah from what I saw it seems that most rehabilitation techniques have poor success rates. I did see some of that Louis Theroux documentary I think, the one where sex offenders are locked up in that mental hospital?

Yeah, that's the one.

[Kazanne]

I'm not going to explain myself to you, this is the third time now I have said I completely understand why parents want justice for their children, but killing the perpetrator is not the answer.

i have not said i wanted them killed!! as Angus explained parents and family get so angry because child murderers ,etc,get an easy ride and get such short sentences,if life meant life,i am sure we involved would all feel better,we get angry because the law is soft.

[Lucy.]

they should get their hands chopped off

Death or no death, this is still immoral.

[Angus]

That's all very swish and dandy, but I highly doubt that the walls of your pregnant womb were imbued with an elixir of knowledge. I hate this assumption that all teenagers and childless parties in this argument cannot understand the severity of the crime committed here, because they haven't fulfilled a universally available biological process.

It's interesting what lily and setanta said - if this were their children they would want to rip them apart. And that's understandable - there is no underestimating the personal hatred and anger they, or you, or I, would go through in that scenario.

However, here, the crime is entirely neutral to all of us. And yet we're divided into two camps: those with composure, and those citing violence. That is the very core distinction here.

Of course, citing violence and causing it are very different things. But that's only in this instance - for example, looking at child porn and taking part in child porn are very different. Does that make the observant form (the former) any less severe? No, because they are still practicing in child pornography. You, and angus58, and whoever else has posted in agreement here, are practicing in violence.


What utter patronising bull****! Your understanding of parenthood is zero if you are equating it to a mere biological function, instead of the lifelong, 24/7 love, care, and protection we give our children. What the ***** do you know about that except from a purely academic point of view? You have then gone on to say that since the children are not YOURS the crime can be viewed as neutral - well there you have the crux of the disagreement between parents and non parents on this forum. Though this crime involved a baby not related to me, BECAUSE I am a parent I can empathise TOTALLY with the parents of that child and I know exactly how they would be feeling and the hatred they feel towards the abuser.

It is very easy to be oh so reasonable and distant when you are NOT emotionally involved. The very least the parents of an abused child should be able to expect is that the judicial system punishes the abuser appropriately which, for me, would be locking them up and throwing away the key.

And just for the record, if you truly think that being a parent is simply dipping your wick and fertilising an egg, I suggest you remain childless. A child deserves total emotional investment, and if you don't GET that, maybe you will when you grow up.

Meanwhile don't bother lecturing me about parenthood - your own statements regarding your understanding of what it is to have a child have betrayed your immaturity and insensitivity so your opinion is pretty much compromised.

[Kazanne]

Death or no death, this is still immoral.

As I have explained numerous times,throw away lines ,as people also say they will kill someone,or rip their heads off,people have taken them far to literally!!! we all say these things but most of us would never carry them out.

[Lucy.]

As I have explained numerous times,throw away lines ,as people also say they will kill someone,or rip their heads off,people have taken them far to literally!!! we all say these things but most of us would never carry them out.

If you say so.

[Kazanne]

If you say so.

I do!!

[Angus]

But you don't understand, do you? It's an illness... these people are sick and acting on compulsions that are beyond their control. I prefer to think of it rationally rather than indulge in emotion when we're dealing with such a taboo subject.

Look, maybe they'll never be cured, but surely we shouldn't be condoning the torture or death of another human being just because they're beyond help? They were burning people at the stake a few centuries ago for problems that we've found cures for or learned more about through science and analysis.


Even if these people are "sick" as opposed to being unbelievably evil and depraved, even more reason to lock them up for good and throw away the key forever. They CANNOT be rehabilitated, they CANNOT be cured, they CANNOT be trusted not to re-offend if released.

BUT the courts are not sentencing these "sick" people appropriately are they?
Nobody is asking anyone else to CONDONE anything - I should imagine if a parent feels failed by the judicial system, the last thing on their mind will be to worry whether others approve of whatever action they might take to get what they might feel is proper justice.

[setanta]

Even if these people are "ill" as opposed to being unbelievably evil and depraved, even more reason to lock them up for good and throw away the key forever. They CANNOT be rehabilitated, they CANNOT be cured, they CANNOT be trusted not to re-offend if released.

BUT the courts are not sentencing these "sick" people appropriately are they?
Nobody is asking anyone else to CONDONE anything - I should imagine if a parent feels failed by the judicial system, the last thing on their mind will be to worry whether others approve of whatever action they might take to get what they might feel is proper justice.

But for everyone you lock up and vilify, there'll be another one born. It's an issue that always has been around andwill never just go away.

[Beastie]

I say just kill them. Rehabilitation takes time and OUR money.

Amen.

[Mystic Mock]

We should bring back the death penalty for people who tape a kid to a wall now?

:bored:

if the toddler werent found the toddler would have died that day.

[Angus]

But for everyone you lock up and vilify, there'll be another one born. It's an issue that always has been around andwill never just go away.

Well I'm willing to listen to whatever solution you have - or are you saying we should just let them remain free to run around and carry on abusing children (or in this case practically newborn babies)?

Since we can't execute the bastards, and we can't lock them up for life, what do you suggest is done because one way or another children HAVE to be protected - as adults it is our duty to consider their safety over the rights of paedophiles.

[Angus]

if the toddler werent found the toddler would have died that day.

Yes, but according to some on here the adults involved were only having a bit of fun!:rolleyes:

[setanta]

Well I'm willing to listen to whatever solution you have - or are you saying we should just let them remain free to run around and carry on abusing children (or in this case practically newborn babies)?

Since we can't execute the bastards, and we can't lock them up for life, what do you suggest is done because one way or another children HAVE to be protected - as adults it is our duty to consider their safety over the rights of paedophiles.

Nothing productive will ever be done when we continue to call them "bastards" and the like. Look, I totally understand where you're coming from, and the resentment and anger you feel towards the individual offender and a negligent judicial system, but like I said before, they'll continue to spring up again and again until we learn more about them through science and observation in a contained enviroment.

[joeysteele]

I dont hold with this 'ill' nonsense at all, these people often have good jobs and professions ,can well control themselves in public.

The only time we hear the 'ill' notion is when they are caught. They are 'sick' alright but only sick in their actions as to their horrendous crimes against Children.

[Angus]

But for everyone you lock up and vilify, there'll be another one born. It's an issue that always has been around andwill never just go away.


One day, maybe, the scientists will be able to identify the different genes that cause aberrant behaviours such as paedophilia and no doubt we'll have a whole new set of moral dilemmas to consider, such as should we abort those foetuses that have such and such a gene that might render them a danger to society in the future, or allow them to be born, grow up and perhaps become a serial killer or paedophile? How much is it possible to control the balance of influences between nature and nurture with any degree of certainty?

Till then secure mental hospitals and prisons are the only options available so it is not too much to ask that the judges start handing down punishments that fit the crime.

[Angus]

How ironic. People need to read the posts properly, i.e. you. I said I UNDERSTAND why people want justice for their children, but ending someone's life wether their is a reason for it or not is making you a killer whichever way you choose to look at it. We are not here to play God and choose who dies and who does not. We are also not here to strip people of human rights, taking someone's right to food and protection away from them is unethical and inhumane and why would you want to stoop to that level? Loss of freedom is the punishment of prison which many people fail to realise. Besides, where do you draw the line with what is and what isn't worth death? Who are you to make that distinction? And don't spout off to me about me not being a parent and not understanding, just because you have a child doesn't give you the right to be immoral.

You still haven't read the posts properly have you. How do you equate getting proper justice with murder? There's more than one way to skin a cat. And who are YOU to impose your immature version of morality onto the actions and thoughts of others. In fact what is all this rubbish you are spouting about food, protection, ramble..unethical..ramble..inhumane..?
:sleep:

As to not playing God, we do that every day when we let paedophiles, killers, and rapists back onto our streets to harm and kill innocent people. I believe mealy mouthed, right on do gooders have caused the decline in our Judicial system which no longer has any deterrent value because the sentences are so laughable - now THAT is immoral. Human Rights Legislation that is weighted in favour of the perpetrator of crimes over the victims of crimes - now THAT is immoral. Lawyers who defend scum of the earth criminals and get them off on technicalities, now THAT is immoral. The reason why crime is on the increase is because criminals KNOW that our oh so "civilised and reasonable" society will NOT punish them appropriately.

It's you who needs to get your priorities and values straight before accusing others of being immoral. The very people you say are deserving of equal treatment to LAW ABIDING people are the criminals who are laughing all the way to the cushy prison cells where they can enjoy a brief holiday safe in the knowledge they will be out soon to re-offend.

[Mystic Mock]

You still haven't read the posts properly have you. How do you equate getting proper justice with murder? There's more than one way to skin a cat. And who are YOU to impose your immature version of morality onto the actions and thoughts of others. In fact what is all this rubbish you are spouting about food, protection, ramble..unethical..ramble..inhumane..?
:sleep:

As to not playing God, we do that every day when we let paedophiles, killers, and rapists back onto our streets to harm and kill innocent people. I believe mealy mouthed, right on do gooders have caused the decline in our Judicial system which no longer has any deterrent value because the sentences are so laughable - now THAT is immoral. Human Rights Legislation that is weighted in favour of the perpetrator of crimes over the victims of crimes - now THAT is immoral. Lawyers who defend scum of the earth criminals and get them off on technicalities, now THAT is immoral. The reason why crime is on the increase is because criminals KNOW that our oh so "civilised and reasonable" society will NOT punish them appropriately.

It's you who needs to get your priorities and values straight before accusing others of being immoral. The very people you say are deserving of equal treatment to LAW ABIDING people are the criminals who are laughing all the way to the cushy prison cells where they can enjoy a brief holiday safe in the knowledge they will be out soon to re-offend.

i completely agree with this and im 14 years of age.

how can anybody tell kazanne off for wanting a pedophiles hands chopped off? and for wanting killers and pedophiles dead i totally agree with them that they should be dead, especially serial killers.

[Lucy.]

You still haven't read the posts properly have you. How do you equate getting proper justice with murder? There's more than one way to skin a cat. And who are YOU to impose your immature version of morality onto the actions and thoughts of others. In fact what is all this rubbish you are spouting about food, protection, ramble..unethical..ramble..inhumane..?
:sleep:

As to not playing God, we do that every day when we let paedophiles, killers, and rapists back onto our streets to harm and kill innocent people. I believe mealy mouthed, right on do gooders have caused the decline in our Judicial system which no longer has any deterrent value because the sentences are so laughable - now THAT is immoral. Human Rights Legislation that is weighted in favour of the perpetrator of crimes over the victims of crimes - now THAT is immoral. Lawyers who defend scum of the earth criminals and get them off on technicalities, now THAT is immoral. The reason why crime is on the increase is because criminals KNOW that our oh so "civilised and reasonable" society will NOT punish them appropriately.

It's you who needs to get your priorities and values straight before accusing others of being immoral. The very people you say are deserving of equal treatment to LAW ABIDING people are the criminals who are laughing all the way to the cushy prison cells where they can enjoy a brief holiday safe in the knowledge they will be out soon to re-offend.

As always my point is missed. Prison cells are not 'cushy'. I never said they should get equal treatment that's a pile of bollocks, I said they shouldn't have their rights stripped as that reduces you to their level. Their loss of freedom is the punishment. There are many errors within the criminal justice system, I have never once said otherwise, but deciding to kill people isn't right. That's all there is to it, you have your opinion I have mine, I am now leaving, goodbye!

[Angus]

I dont hold with this 'ill' nonsense at all, these people often have good jobs and professions ,can well control themselves in public.

The only time we hear the 'ill' notion is when they are caught. They are 'sick' alright but only sick in their actions as to their horrendous crimes against Children.

There is an easy way to determine whether someone is "sick" or mentally ill.
If the perpetrator tries to hide their crime, they are not either, if they don't then they are. Sick or mentally ill people do not acknowledge they are doing anything wrong, they believe they are normal, so have no need to hide their behaviour.

Strange then that it can take years to track down paedophiles who are able to conceal their crimes and by doing so are acknowledging that what they are doing is against the law.

[Tom4784]

Yes, but according to some on here the adults involved were only having a bit of fun!:rolleyes:

I read that topic and nobody defended the parents so you can stop right there.

[Angus]

Nothing productive will ever be done when we continue to call them "bastards" and the like. Look, I totally understand where you're coming from, and the resentment and anger you feel towards the individual offender and a negligent judicial system, but like I said before, they'll continue to spring up again and again until we learn more about them through science and observation in a contained enviroment.

I know all that, but you have still not come up with any viable alternative to a lengthy stay at her majesty's pleasure. My beef is that the sentences are laughable and are no deterrent or, more to the point, protection for children in particular.

[Mystic Mock]

I read that topic and nobody defended the parents so you can stop right there.

angus58,kazanne and bb eye did tell the members off that were making sick jokes.

[Shaun]

What utter patronising bull****! Your understanding of parenthood is zero if you are equating it to a mere biological function, instead of the lifelong, 24/7 love, care, and protection we give our children. What the ***** do you know about that except from a purely academic point of view? You have then gone on to say that since the children are not YOURS the crime can be viewed as neutral - well there you have the crux of the disagreement between parents and non parents on this forum. Though this crime involved a baby not related to me, BECAUSE I am a parent I can empathise TOTALLY with the parents of that child and I know exactly how they would be feeling and the hatred they feel towards the abuser.

It is very easy to be oh so reasonable and distant when you are NOT emotionally involved. The very least the parents of an abused child should be able to expect is that the judicial system punishes the abuser appropriately which, for me, would be locking them up and throwing away the key.

And just for the record, if you truly think that being a parent is simply dipping your wick and fertilising an egg, I suggest you remain childless. A child deserves total emotional investment, and if you don't GET that, maybe you will when you grow up.

Meanwhile don't bother lecturing me about parenthood - your own statements regarding your understanding of what it is to have a child have betrayed your immaturity and insensitivity so your opinion is pretty much compromised.

The fact you're a parent alarms me. You're a melodramatic mess.

You actually make my skin crawl. No wonder society's in such disrepute when figures like yourself - with this unwarranted belief that because you have semen/an egg and used it you're better and more informed than everyone - equate to the majority.

[Beastie]

Err I also find it disgusting that apparently criminals in jail might be able to have a job.. AND also get paid 12 grand a year. DISGUSTING. People in the real world can't even get a 12 grand a year job. Plus the crimimals still have a RENT FREE life in jail.

Prisoners SHOULD work when they are in jail too. Get them to the streets. Chain them on the roads and make them sweep the streets up!! Be treated like slaves with NO wage. They still get free food, water and shelter!! but no money!!!!

Too much pussy footing around in this country......

Prisoners should be treated like on that film.... "Cool hand Luke". That was good :)

[Tom4784]

I think you should think before you say those things to Angus.maybe you should re- read her post.a bit of sensitivity here would be nice.

Why? in fairness she's done nothing but deride me and others throughout the topic and used the kids as an excuse to do so, Shaun said it the best when he said being a mother doesn't instantly make you a genius on the subject or more entitled to an opinion the people without.

[Tom4784]

angus58,kazanne and bb eye did tell the members off that were making sick jokes.

Making jokes and defending the parents are two different things.

[Angus]

As always my point is missed. Prison cells are not 'cushy'. I never said they should get equal treatment that's a pile of bollocks, I said they shouldn't have their rights stripped as that reduces you to their level. Their loss of freedom is the punishment. There are many errors within the criminal justice system, I have never once said otherwise, but deciding to kill people isn't right. That's all there is to it, you have your opinion I have mine, I am now leaving, goodbye!

You are still putting words into mine and others' mouths to suit your own argument. The whole point of this debate is that the prison sentences are laughably lenient and therefore the loss of freedom for a short period is NOT deterrent. If, as a lot of people believe, such people are "sick", they should NEVER be released to re-offend, so why are they? And since justice has therefore not been served, it seems the answer according to you is "oh well".

It's easy to do a runner when you have a weak argument isn't it?:rolleyes:

[Mystic Mock]

Making jokes and defending the parents are two different things.

but kazanne and angus58 said think about the parents.

[Mystic Mock]

i think we should be more like thailand but instead chop serial killers and pedophiles hands off.

[Tom4784]

You are still putting words into mine and others' mouths to suit your own argument. The whole point of this debate is that the prison sentences are laughably lenient and therefore the loss of freedom for a short period is NOT deterrent. If, as a lot of people believe, such people are "sick", they should NEVER be released to re-offend, so why are they? And since justice has therefore not been served, it seems the answer according to you is "oh well".

It's easy to do a runner when you have a weak argument isn't it?:rolleyes:

We can't make exceptions though, the law can't be grey it has to be black and White otherwise it's pointless. Everyone has to be treated the same otherwise we might as well give in to anarchy.

[Lucy.]

You are still putting words into mine and others' mouths to suit your own argument. The whole point of this debate is that the prison sentences are laughably lenient and therefore the loss of freedom for a short period is NOT deterrent. If, as a lot of people believe, such people are "sick", they should NEVER be released to re-offend, so why are they? And since justice has therefore not been served, it seems the answer according to you is "oh well".

It's easy to do a runner when you have a weak argument isn't it?:rolleyes:

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouth, they've said them themselves. Justice has not been served according to YOU and thankfully you don't rule the justice system or the country would be even more ****ed than it is with your dramatic take on everything. You think my arguement is weak, I think yours is unfounded. Ever heard of people leaving because they cannot be ****ed to argue with someone who reads things the way they want and spends the whole arguement telling everyone else what to do and think? Well that's what you call this, not a "runner".

[Beastie]

I say "test" the couple on their "sexual" fantasies. Let's bring Jigsaw out!! Set them a sexual fantasy trap!! Depending how their mind is on the "will to leave" they could survive.. they could not??

Bring on the saw traps!!!

[Tom4784]

but kazanne and angus58 said think about the parents.

They aren't the authority on the matter, people make off colour jokes. It happens all the tiem on here. It doesn't mean anyone agrees or defend what happened.

Learn to think for yourself.

[Lee.]

To add my opinion to this argument... It may not be morally correct or blah blah blah, but if anyone harmed/abused/tortured/murdered my child, I would want that person dead. It's as simple as that! My OH and I were talking about Jamie Bulger and Baby P the other night and agreed that any rational thoughts would go out the window.. I'd probably kill them myself in fact.

[Mystic Mock]

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouth, they've said them themselves. Justice has not been served according to YOU and thankfully you don't rule the justice system or the country would be even more ****ed than it is with your dramatic take on everything. You think my arguement is weak, I think yours is unfounded. Ever heard of people leaving because they cannot be ****ed to argue with someone who reads things the way they want and spends the whole arguement telling everyone else what to do and think? Well that's what you call this, not a "runner".

if you dont think 10 years max on killing people isnt soft then i dread to think how you would run the country tbh.

[Lucy.]

if you dont think 10 years max on killing people isnt soft then i dread to think how you would run the country tbh.

Did I say I thought that? Oh no, I didn't.

[Mystic Mock]

To add my opinion to this argument... It may not be morally correct or blah blah blah, but if anyone harmed/abused/tortured/murdered my child, I would want that person dead. It's as simple as that! My OH and I were talking about Jamie Bulger and Baby P the other night and agreed that any rational thoughts would go out the window.. I'd probably kill them myself in fact.

i agree, say somebody gave me a knife to kill ian huntley i would kill him there and then.

[Beastie]

if you dont think 10 years max on killing people isnt soft then i dread to think how you would run the country tbh.

The country ran better when there was tougher sentences.

[Tom4784]

I'm glad that a lot of people in this topic will never have power or control of anything regarding how this country is run.

[Tom4784]

The country ran better when there was tougher sentences.

Yup because Capital punishment has made America a crime free zone.

[Mystic Mock]

I'm glad that a lot of people in this topic will never have power or control of anything regarding how this country is run.

yeah we have the currupt leaders instead yay.

[Mystic Mock]

Yup because Capital punishment has made America a crime free zone.

thats only because america is an extremely big country.

[InOne]

I remember a facebook debate once, where a few of us labelled people who went on about violence and killing as "foamers". Because you could just imagine them foaming at the mouth with the thoughts of these sadistic acts they could so 'easily' commit. When the fact is most aren't even capable of torturing a frog.

[Angus]

I'm not even going to start. The fact you're a parent alarms me. You're a melodramatic mess.

It just shows the depths of your immaturity and idiocy that you try to score points by attempting to insult my worth as a parent, and attempting to dismiss my views as "melodramatic". A typical male ploy towards a woman when they're losing an argument! It would only be taken seriously by me if of course your opinions had any validity which, in fact, they don't. I have tell you my dear your views on parenthood are truly laughable.

I know I'M a good parent, but the jury is still out on you. Come back in 20 years time when you have some idea of what it is to be one.:xyxwave:

[Beastie]

Yup because Capital punishment has made America a crime free zone.

There will NEVER be a crime free zone but it will reduce the crime if there is harsher punishments. Too much pussy footing in the UK.

My statement is just a generalisation. There are people still out there who have done far worse than this thread story.

Too much pussy footing as in.. "oh everyone is mentally ill nowadays" wah wah. People can't take responsibilty for their actions.. cowards!!

[Mystic Mock]

There will NEVER be a crime free zone but it will reduce the crime if there is harsher punishments. Too much pussy footing in the UK.

My statement is just a generalisation. There are people still out there who have done far worse than this thread story.

Too much pussy footing as in.. "oh everyone is mentally ill nowadays" wah wah. People can't take responsibilty for their actions.. cowards!!

i totally agree,but sadly to many lefties now.:(

[Angus]

I'm glad that a lot of people in this topic will never have power or control of anything regarding how this country is run.

You're wrong there - a lot of us voted to kick out the useless Labour party in favour of a government that will hopefully start redressing the unfair balance between the rights of the victim and the rights of the criminal. So you could say that we're already in control by having the government of OUR choice calling the shots now.

[Lee.]

The whole country has become namby pamby!! Human right and political correctness have buggered everything up!! From schoolkids to criminals, there are no fearful punishments to deter! When I was young, I had respect (maybe almost fear) for teachers/my parents/the police etc. Not nowadays!
Same goes for criminals.. there just isn't a big enough deterrent!

[Mystic Mock]

The whole country has become namby pamby!! Human right and political correctness have buggered everything up!! From schoolkids to criminals, there are no fearful punishments to deter! When I was young, I had respect (maybe almost fear) for teachers/my parents/the police etc. Not nowadays!
Same goes for criminals.. there just isn't a big enough deterrent!

i never feared my teachers but i still had respect for most of them and i would like to think that i will never commit a crime.

[Kerry]

Read a couple of lines and had read enough to want to vomit.

Just get rid of the dirty bastards

[Tom4784]

Capital punishment isn't a deterrent, America has horrific crime rates regardless. It does nothing to improve the rates.

[Tom4784]

i never feared my teachers but i still had respect for most of them and i would like to think that i will never commit a crime.

Didn't you say a page a few back that you'd kill Ian Huntley if you had the chance? That'd be murder....

[Kerry]

Capital punishment isn't a deterrent, America has horrific crime rates regardless. It does nothing to improve the rates.

Look at the size of America though. Not sure I'd fancy being shot/killed if I did wrong

That said America has effed up badly somewhere along the line. Just not sure where exactly

[Mystic Mock]

Capital punishment isn't a deterrent, America has horrific crime rates regardless. It does nothing to improve the rates.

because there a much bigger country than the uk,if america was the same size as the uk america would have the smaller crime rate as the uk for such a small island has a very big crime rate.

[InOne]

Capital punishment isn't a deterrent, America has horrific crime rates regardless. It does nothing to improve the rates.

Good job these whip em and hang em types are a minority in this country. It would be more of a mess. Their arguments and statements get more ridiculous and less rational with every post.

[Beastie]

Capital punishment isn't a deterrent, America has horrific crime rates regardless. It does nothing to improve the rates.

That's in America though. I am on about the UK. Be good to kill off some people who deserve it. The UK is CLOGGED up enough! While America is massive but has less people living there per square mile.

[Tom4784]

The size is irrelevent, it's not anarchy out there, there's order but the death penalty just doesn't have any positive effects. You can't justify it and call it justice since it's murder itself.

[Mystic Mock]

Didn't you say a page a few back that you'd kill Ian Huntley if you had the chance? That'd be murder....

i dont class killing criminals as proper murder.

im on about killing innocent people.

[Lucy.]

. You can't justify it and call it justice since it's murder itself.

Thank **** someone else feels the same, was starting to think I was the only person who thought this!

[Kerry]

The size is irrelevent, it's not anarchy out there, there's order but the death penalty just doesn't have any positive effects. You can't justify it and call it justice since it's murder itself.

OK so what about less 'tolerent' countries where they just chop your hands off for theft instead? Yes - it happens

[Beastie]

The size is irrelevent, it's not anarchy out there, there's order but the death penalty just doesn't have any positive effects. You can't justify it and call it justice since it's murder itself.

It doesn't have to be called justice then. I believe in an eye for an eye and people having a taste of their own medicine.

[InOne]

i dont class killing criminals as proper murder.

im on about killing innocent people.

Stop being so ridiculous. You couldn't kill anyone.

[Tom4784]

i dont class killing criminals as proper murder.

im on about killing innocent people.

Oh so the law's only okay when you say it is? You'd be a murderer whether you'd see yourself as one or not.

[Mystic Mock]

It doesn't have to be called justice then. I believe in an eye for an eye and people having a taste of their own medicine.

yes but it seems like most people nowdays havent been brought up on an eye for an eye.

[Lucy.]

yes but it seems like most people nowdays havent been brought up on an eye for an eye.

Good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tom4784]

It doesn't have to be called justice then. I believe in an eye for an eye and people having a taste of their own medicine.

I said this in one of my first posts but

'An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind in the end'

You're not interested in justice or the law, you just want mob violence.

[Kerry]

Until anyone in here says they have kids and wouldn't kill for their kids I'm not going to bother posting

[Tom4784]

Having kids or not doesn't make anyone's opinion more or less valid.

Why is nobody getting that?

[Lucy.]

Having kids or not doesn't make anyone's opinion more or less valid.

Why is nobody getting that?

I do.

[Beastie]

I said this in one of my first posts but

'An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind in the end'

You're not interested in justice or the law, you just want mob violence.

I don't want mob violence at all! I just think it is disgutsting people who have commited severe crimes get away with it or have "lenient" punishments.

[InOne]

Until anyone in here says they have kids and wouldn't kill for their kids I'm not going to bother posting

I'm sure almost every mother says that, but how often do you hear of it happening? Even mothers themselves probably don't know how they'd react.

[Kerry]

Having kids or not doesn't make anyone's opinion more or less valid.

Why is nobody getting that?

Why not? You cannot possibly know a parents instinct!

[Mystic Mock]

Oh so the law's only okay when you say it is? You'd be a murderer whether you'd see yourself as one or not.

i think most people would see me or anybody else as a hero if ian huntley was killed.

[Lee.]

Having kids or not doesn't make anyone's opinion more or less valid.

Why is nobody getting that?

Until you have kids of your own, you won't understand.

[Kerry]

I'm sure almost every mother says that, but how often do you hear of it happening? Even mothers themselves probably don't know how they'd react.

I know I'd rip my own heart out if my daughter needed it.

[Tom4784]

I don't want mob violence at all! I just think it is disgutsting people who have commited severe crimes get away with it or have "lenient" punishments.

You just essentially said you wanted eye for an eye and that it shouldn't be called justice.

By your own admission you've just said you wanted violence.

[Lucy.]

i think most people would see me or anybody else as a hero if ian huntley was killed.

That just shows your idiocy of all your posts if you actually believe most people would see you a hero for being a murderer.

[Mystic Mock]

Until you have kids of your own, you won't understand.

i dont have children but i would like to see these bastards dead.

[Mystic Mock]

That just shows your idiocy of all your posts if you actually believe most people would see you a hero for being a murderer.

most people wouldnt see me or anybody else as a murderer if ian huntley was killed.

[Lucy.]

most people wouldnt see me or anybody else as a murderer if ian huntley was killed.

And he strikes again!

[Kerry]

Can't believe people think these vile people deserve life

[Beastie]

You just essentially said you wanted eye for an eye and that it shouldn't be called justice.

By your own admission you've just said you wanted violence.

Of course I would want violence back at the person if they commited the violence first. For example.. if someone poked my eye out.. they should get their eye poked out too. People get away with too much, don't take responsibility for their actions!

A taste of people's own medicine should do the trick!

[Lee.]

Can I ask you all something?

What DO you see as a fitting punishment for the abuse/torture of a child?

Just take for example the couple who filmed themselves raping a baby.. if you were solely responsible for their fate, what would you do?

[Lucy.]

Isn't it ironic that all these people who would apparently kill for a kill etc etc have become abusive through hating people for being abusive? Is that not double standards, screams it to me.

[Kerry]

Isn't it ironic that all these people who would apparently kill for a kill etc etc have become abusive through hating people for being abusive? Is that not double standards, screams it to me.

Post again once you're a parent

[Beastie]

That just shows your idiocy of all your posts if you actually believe most people would see you a hero for being a murderer.

He would be a hero.. because it is about the reasoning of murdering someone. If Jedward murders someone AFTER that person who he has murdered has murdered someone then it is acceptable! :) Whether it is him or anyone else than I would salute them! :hugesmile:

[Tom4784]

Until you have kids of your own, you won't understand.

So your opinion is worth more then mine? Get a grip. I think I'd have an idea how I'd react. I'd be beyond distraught that it happaned and a failure for not being able to prevent although it wasn't anyone's fault but the peadophile in question. I like to think that I could focus on my kid's recovery from the horrific ordeal rather then getting swallowed up in hate. Since the kid would obviously be more important then my own feelings and I'd put everything into making sure they can move past this and carry on without it hurting them anymore.

I'm not a clueless idiot, I can empathise a little with the situation.

My opinion still stands though, the law system isn't perfect but it's a godsend compared to some of the solutions offered up in this thread.

[Lucy.]

Post again once you're a parent

Who are you to tell me when to post? Having a child doesn't make you more entitled to an opinion ffs. If anything it seems to have made you all more bloody irrational! Do you actually think your child would want to see their parent locked up for abusing/murdering their abuser when their trying to get on with their life?

[Beastie]

Can I ask you all something?

What DO you see as a fitting punishment for the abuse/torture of a child?

Just take for example the couple who filmed themselves raping a baby.. if you were solely responsible for their fate, what would you do?

Capital punishment or locked away in jail until they die.

[Mystic Mock]

Can't believe people think these vile people deserve life

i think some of them try to wind us up.

[Kerry]

Who are you to tell me when to post? Having a child doesn't make you more entitled to an opinion ffs.

Oh grow up little girl. I never said don't have an opinion. Just don't aim them at me

[Tom4784]

Can I ask you all something?

What DO you see as a fitting punishment for the abuse/torture of a child?

Just take for example the couple who filmed themselves raping a baby.. if you were solely responsible for their fate, what would you do?

I'd do the right thing and send them to prison for a very long time, I wouldn't let myself be brought down to that level by killing them.

Sometimes living in captivity is worse then dying.

[Beastie]

Isn't it ironic that all these people who would apparently kill for a kill etc etc have become abusive through hating people for being abusive? Is that not double standards, screams it to me.

It is about the reasoning behind it though!

[Lucy.]

Oh grow up little girl. I never said don't have an opinion. Just don't aim them at me

Oh I see that's how your going to play it. Little girl? Your going to get personal now. Two can play at that. You think your child would want to see you as their mother banged up for killing their abuser? Some role model you are.

[Tom4784]

Oh grow up little girl. I never said don't have an opinion. Just don't aim them at me

This is a debate thread, she has the right to dissect your posts like you can do to hers. You've got no right to tell her when or when not to share her opinion and who with.

[Kerry]

Who are you to tell me when to post? Having a child doesn't make you more entitled to an opinion ffs. If anything it seems to have made you all more bloody irrational! Do you actually think your child would want to see their parent locked up for abusing/murdering their abuser when their trying to get on with their life?

When did I say I'd murder their abuser? I said I'd rip my own heart out for my girl

[Tom4784]

It is about the reasoning behind it though!

No it's not, you'd still be a murderer in the eyes of the law and too right. the law needs to be black and white otherwise it's pointless and we'd all suffer.

[InOne]

I think it would be better to study the serious offenders. Find out what makes them who they are. What triggers them and what made them make the leap from thinking about it of looking at it to actually doing it. This way we could pick up the early warning signs from kids who act strangely or young adults. Instead of killing someone, use them to possibly save more children from harm in the future, and intervene early if someone looks to be going that wau.

[Lee.]

So your opinion is worth more then mine? Get a grip. I think I'd have an idea how I'd react. I'd be beyond distraught that it happaned and a failure for not being able to prevent although it wasn't anyone's fault but the peadophile in question. I like to think that I could focus on my kid's recovery from the horrific ordeal rather then getting swallowed up in hate. Since the kid would obviously be more important then my own feelings and I'd put everything into making sure they can move past this and carry on without it hurting them anymore.

I'm not a clueless idiot, I can empathise a little with the situation.

My opinion still stands though, the law system isn't perfect but it's a godsend compared to some of the solutions offered up in this thread.

No! I'm not saying my opinion is worth more than yours! Not at all. I realise debate can't happen without differing opinions.

However, once you have a child of your own, you will, without a doubt feel a love so fierce that you would kill for him/her. That's not an opinion, it's what parenthood does to you.

[Lucy.]

When did I say I'd murder their abuser? I said I'd rip my own heart out for my girl

Agreeing with capital punishment is agreeing with murder. Unless ofcourse you wouldn't do it yourself you'd just be quite happy for someone else completely unrelated to the case to do your dirty work for you.

[Kerry]

This is a debate thread, she has the right to dissect your posts like you can do to hers. You've got no right to tell her when or when not to share her opinion and who with.

Yes, I know. But she ought to learn which are my posts then

[setanta]

I know all that, but you have still not come up with any viable alternative to a lengthy stay at her majesty's pleasure. My beef is that the sentences are laughable and are no deterrent or, more to the point, protection for children in particular.

I understand your frustration and believe me, I'd want some retribution too if any of the people that I love were harmed in any way, but this problem wont disappear with them in prison, you know? And don't forget that you wanted them to be chopped up or hanged in your first comment, and it's that kinda of emotive language that will sever any kind of chances of making real progress in dealing with the issue head on. As long as we're around there'll be paedophiles, and I just think we should learn more about the condition rather than give in to hate, you know?

But yeah, they shouldn't be allowed back out after offending, especially since there's no cure as of yet for their condition.

[Beastie]

No it's not, you'd still be a murderer in the eyes of the law and too right. the law needs to be black and white otherwise it's pointless and we'd all suffer.

Yes. The law NEEDS to be changed.

[Lucy.]

Yes, I know. But she ought to learn which are my posts then

I never even mentioned your ****ing post!

[Tom4784]

I swear if someone else pulls the mother card out to try and shut down another poster then I'm infracting :laugh:

[Kerry]

I said I'd rip MY!!!!!!!!!!!! heart out for my girl

[InOne]

I swear if someone else pulls the mother card out to try and shut down another poster then I'm infracting :laugh:

Yeah it's pretty annoying lol

[Kerry]

I swear if someone else pulls the mother card out to try and shut down another poster then I'm infracting :laugh:

I hope you're joking

[Lee.]

I understand your frustration and believe me, I'd want some retribution too if any of the people that I love were harmed in any way, but this problem wont disappear with them in prison, you know? And don't forget that you wanted them to be chopped up or hanged in your first comment, and it's that kinda of emotive language that will sever any kind of chances of making real progress in dealing with the issue head on. As long as we're around there'll be paedophiles, and I just think we should learn more about the condition rather than give in to hate, you know?

But yeah, they shouldn't be allowed back out after offending, especially since there's no cure as of yet for their condition.

Yes there is.. castration!

(Hi by the way) :)

[Mystic Mock]

I hope you're joking

they put a giggle smilie up which means there joking i think.

[Beastie]

I think it would be better to study the serious offenders. Find out what makes them who they are. What triggers them and what made them make the leap from thinking about it of looking at it to actually doing it. This way we could pick up the early warning signs from kids who act strangely or young adults. Instead of killing someone, use them to possibly save more children from harm in the future, and intervene early if someone looks to be going that wau.

Yes.. we can use this for some of them. But not for the ones who have already murdered. Yet they will get special treatment in a rehabilitation centre and us tax payers have to pay for them? No thanks.....

I think most of them CHOOSE to look at porn and rape and kill babies.

A minority will have a serious mental condition. It is a choice at the end of the day. Most will know it is wrong what they are doing. If they commit the crime, they have to pay the price. Life in prison and they should still be well.. "tested" why did they do this.. blah blah.. or be tested then.. capital punishment? Their choice!

I wouldn't bother ever letting them out in the real world again......

[Tom4784]

Yes. The law NEEDS to be changed.

No it doesn't, at most sentences need to be made longer. The changes you've offered up would lead to the loss of thousands of innocent lives as it would result in anarchy where anyone could meld the law into what they need it to be to justify there crimes.

The law can NEVER be a shade of grey, if you can't see that then there's no point in continuing the conversation.

[Kerry]

I'd love to know the infraction reason. "Disagreeing with a mod - I infracted you" ???

[Kerry]

they put a giggle smilie up which means there joking i think.

Seriously hope so.

[Mystic Mock]

I'd love to know the infraction reason. "Disagreeing with a mod - I infracted you" ???

:laugh2:

[setanta]

Yes there is.. castration!

(Hi by the way) :)

Apparently it doesn't work all the time because it can be a psychological as well as physiological condition. But yeah, hiya.

[Lucy.]

I'd love to know the infraction reason. "Disagreeing with a mod - I infracted you" ???

How about using insults about people's age and telling them when and when not to post just because their not mothers?

[InOne]

Yes.. we can use this for some of them. But not for the ones who have already murdered. Yet they will get special treatment in a rehabilitation centre and us tax payers have to pay for them? No thanks.....

The ones who have already murdered could be most useful, and they could be the key to figuring out, what pushes them over the edge to kill.

[Kerry]

How about using insults about people's age and telling them when and when not to post just because their not mothers?

I said grow up. Even if you were twelve you can act it.

[Tom4784]

It was a joke but it is seriously annoying, if you can't debate with someone without acting all superior saying that we don't know because we're not parents then you might as well leave as that's not a debate, try and actually argue the points instead of just going 'You're not a parent you don't understand'.

It's a cheap and annoying copout.

[Lucy.]

I said grow up. Even if you were twelve you can act it.

You said grow up little girl actually.

[Kerry]

It was a joke but it is seriously annoying, if you can't debate with someone without acting all superior saying that we don't know because we're not parents then you might as well leave as that's not a debate, try and actually argue the points instead of just going 'You're not a parent you don't understand'.

It's a cheap and annoying copout.

It's annoying for those of us that are parents. I've not screamed at the report button yet though

[InOne]

Yes.. we can use this for some of them. But not for the ones who have already murdered. Yet they will get special treatment in a rehabilitation centre and us tax payers have to pay for them? No thanks.....

I think most of them CHOOSE to look at porn and rape and kill babies.

A minority will have a serious mental condition. It is a choice at the end of the day. Most will know it is wrong what they are doing. If they commit the crime, they have to pay the price. Life in prison and they should still be well.. "tested" why did they do this.. blah blah.. or be tested then.. capital punishment? Their choice!

I wouldn't bother ever letting them out in the real world again......

I doubt it. It's starts very early on, and they are driven to it by compulsions. Everyone has a choice but once you take that leap too far there is no stopping you.

[Beastie]

I understand your frustration and believe me, I'd want some retribution too if any of the people that I love were harmed in any way, but this problem wont disappear with them in prison, you know? And don't forget that you wanted them to be chopped up or hanged in your first comment, and it's that kinda of emotive language that will sever any kind of chances of making real progress in dealing with the issue head on. As long as we're around there'll be paedophiles, and I just think we should learn more about the condition rather than give in to hate, you know?

But yeah, they shouldn't be allowed back out after offending, especially since there's no cure as of yet for their condition.

Exactly.. life is life. If they are on "good behaviour" in jail.. tough sh!t.. they should stay in there until they DIE. Give them an egg custard or something for a being a "good" prisoner for the day! :hugesmile:

[Kerry]

You said grow up little girl actually.

Oh for heavens sake. If you can't take a bit of stick....

[Lucy.]

Oh for heavens sake. If you can't take a bit of stick....

Not stick that's completely unrelated to the subject, no. My age has got nothing to do with the fact that I'm just as entitled to an opinion as you are, that's where the problem is.

[Mystic Mock]

it is getting annoying about the parent thing now.

but seriously the lefties that think murderers and pedophiles deserve to be living have killed this country.

[Beastie]

I doubt it. It's starts very early on, and they are driven to it by compulsions. Everyone has a choice but once you take that leap too far there is no stopping you.

Well okay then. Whatever.. sure they can be tested. But left in jail forever!

[Kerry]

Not stick that's completely unrelated to the subject, no. My age has got nothing to do with the fact that I'm just as entitled to an opinion as you are, that's where the problem is.

OK sorry. Even as a 'non-parent' I think pedos need to be throttled. Better?

[Tom4784]

It's annoying for those of us that are parents. I've not screamed at the report button yet though

Why? because we're not instantly agreeing with you? What's there to report? 'Oh they don't agree with me'.

Just because you're a parent doesn't make you any smarter or knowledgeable on the subject of the law system then anyone else. Lily is a parent and a very good one at that but in her posts she never shut anyone down because of it, she said her piece and let others speak.

Shutting people down using the mother card is denying them the right to debate whether you say it isn't or not.

[Beastie]

No it doesn't, at most sentences need to be made longer. The changes you've offered up would lead to the loss of thousands of innocent lives as it would result in anarchy where anyone could meld the law into what they need it to be to justify there crimes.

The law can NEVER be a shade of grey, if you can't see that then there's no point in continuing the conversation.

I agree but AT THE LEAST.

LIFE in Prison should mean LIFE!!

[Lee.]

It was a joke but it is seriously annoying, if you can't debate with someone without acting all superior saying that we don't know because we're not parents then you might as well leave as that's not a debate, try and actually argue the points instead of just going 'You're not a parent you don't understand'.

It's a cheap and annoying copout.

Dezzy, it really isn't about acting superior and it certainly isn't a copout.. As a mother, I would want anyone who seriously harmed my children dead. I can't help it, it's just how I feel. I think most, if not all parents would probably feel the same.

[Tom4784]

it is getting annoying about the parent thing now.

but seriously the lefties that think murderers and pedophiles deserve to be living have killed this country.

The country would just flourish if we murdered anyone suspected of being a criminal now wouldn't it?

[InOne]

Well okay then. Whatever.. sure they can be tested. But left in jail forever!

I agree they should never be allowed back into society yes. But think we should make use of them to help other kids in the future.

[Mystic Mock]

I agree but AT THE LEAST.

LIFE in Prison should mean LIFE!!

but it dosent thats why they should get the death penalty or have there hands chopped off.

[Kerry]

Why? because we're not instantly agreeing with you? What's there to report? 'Oh they don't agree with me'.

Just because you're a parent doesn't make you any smarter or knowledgeable on the subject of the law system then anyone else. Lily is a parent and a very good one at that but in her posts she never shut anyone down because of it, she said her piece and let others speak.

Shutting people down using the mother card is denying them the right to debate whether you say it isn't or not.

I've not reported a thing

And I've not shut people out (LUCY included). I'm simply debating

[Mystic Mock]

The country would just flourish if we murdered anyone suspected of being a criminal now wouldn't it?

im on about ones that have been proven guilty.

[Lucy.]

I don't even understand why you'd want them dead. It's such a cop out, what if the child was murdered? Then the child and the murderer is dead and people start to forget about what that person did, least when their in jail it's not forgotton and their made to deal with it for the rest of their life. I agree sentences should mean life, but they shouldn't mean death.

[Tom4784]

but it dosent thats why they should get the death penalty or have there hands chopped off.

That'd make you as bad as the criminals. If you can't see that then there's no helping you.

[InOne]

What if one of your own kids became a Paedophile? Would you want them dead?

[Lee.]

but it dosent thats why they should get the death penalty or have there hands chopped off.

...and/or their bollocks

[Tom4784]

im on about ones that have been proven guilty.

and what would that achieve? Capital Punishment has never had a positive effect on crime rates.

[Mystic Mock]

What if one of your own kids became a Paedophile? Would you want them dead?

thats personal but no.

[Tom4784]

I don't even understand why you'd want them dead. It's such a cop out, what if the child was murdered? Then the child and the murderer is dead and people start to forget about what that person did, least when their in jail it's not forgotton and their made to deal with it for the rest of their life. I agree sentences should mean life, but they shouldn't mean death.

I agree.

[Beastie]

The country would just flourish if we murdered anyone suspected of being a criminal now wouldn't it?

If the murderer is a murderer and is 100% PROVEN then I don't care if they are killed.

I think LIFE in prison for MOST offenders if the best option!!