Ron and racism..your opinions..?...

[Ammi]

..so at some point I’m sure this will be discussed on the forum and people will obviously have very differing opinions, I’m a little undecided myself as to when he went into the house and the preconceived opinions I had in that I have listened/read what other people have to say and thought about their views..what he said was extremely racist and couldn’t have been mistaken/perceived in any other way..the fact that he didn’t realise it was being recorded makes it worse in some ways because that might be how he genuinely is all the time..or maybe he just said something ‘out of character’ and it’s ruined his career, which I don’t dispute was exceptional , he’s certainly very good at what he did and everyone is flawed but for me some flaws can be overlooked and some define that person ...I’ve also read that he ‘made one mistake and has been sorry/apologised ever since’ but I recall seeing him in Wife Swap with Tessa Sanderson a little while afterwards and he didn’t appear sorry at all and refused to discuss it, he seemed quite arrogant about the whole thing..it was only at the end when his wife ‘spoke to him’ that he appeared to even listen to what anyone was trying to say..maybe she helped him understand why what he said was so wrong because he genuinely didn't realise..?..or maybe she helped him to understand that he should ‘appear’ to be sorry etc..I don’t really know..I would quite like it if it was discussed in the house at some point to hear what he himself has to say now, he would never be a favourite for me anyway just because he doesn’t stand for much I admire in a person, his career just isn’t enough to make his character..but do you think he is a racist and can you like someone even if they are because of other positive qualities about them..?..I’m genuinely interested in people’s opinions....

[DigitalSid]

Do I think he hates or dislikes other races, no, do I think he's prejudiced towards and stereotypes them, yes.

[CaudleHalbard]

To be honest, I've forgotten what he did.

Was it a racist remark while he was broadcasting? Or had it been a series of things he said?

[Jesus.]

To be honest, I've forgotten what he did.

Was it a racist remark while he was broadcasting? Or had it been a series of things he said?

He called Marcel Desailly a "big, lazy ni**er".

[Livia]

He's not intelligent enough to even know he's a racist. The man's an idiot. Last night on his VT the first thing he said was "One thing I can't stand is stupidness". Obviously there's no such word and he meant stupidity... but this is how he's got on in life. He's stupid, he pretends he's intelligent, and other stupid people believe him.

[Miranda123]

Do I think he hates or dislike other races, no, do I think he's prejudiced towards and stereotypes them, yes.

I think its an age thing, both my parents saw all races in a stereotypical way, it was the way things were in their era's

In fact I grew up in the 70's and things were the same then

The weird thing was that both my parents were Irish and had suffered the same kind of racism when they came here, but still saw black people as 'different'

What you have to remember is that when people like Ron were young, large scale immigration was still pretty new, and all those different cultures felt even more alien before the internet, when most people knew very little about the world

One of the insults people would hurl at black people when I was a child, would be to call them 'spear chuckers', understandable perhaps, if the only black people you see en masse is in a Zulu film or Tarzan

When my mum came here in 1939, and walked out of Paddington Station, she saw her first ever black man, wearing a white suit and tap dancing for money, and she stood there for ages watching him cause she had heard about black people but wasnt sure whether it was true or not!!

I know that he worked with a lot of young black players who still say nice things about him, so maybe he's not so bad after all

Having said all that, I dont think he's gonna be in the running for winner

[DanaC]

Yes, I think he is a racist.

Does that mean i automatically won't like him? Well, not necessarily. If I disliked everybody with racist views I'd spend a lot of time disliking people I meet in life.

I think it depends on a lot of other factors really. I've had friends who were racist (usually just the day to day passive racism that falls apart at any actual scrutiny) and likewise some members of my extended family are/were what I would consider to be racist.

It's a definite mark against someone though. And I find it very hard to like someone who genuinely believes that there is a natural racial hierarchy.

[DigitalSid]

To be honest, I've forgotten what he did.

Was it a racist remark while he was broadcasting? Or had it been a series of things he said?

Called a player, while he thought he was off air but was on, a "****ing lazy n*****", and later made a remark about Chinese women being the ugliest women in the world (clearly has never seen Lucy Liu :hmph:).

[DanaC]

I think its an age thing, both my parents saw all races in a stereotypical way, it was the way things were in their era's

In fact I grew up in the 70's and things were the same then

The weird thing was that both my parents were Irish and had suffered the same kind of racism when they came here, but still saw black people as 'different'

What you have to remember is that when people like Ron were young, large scale immigration was still pretty new, and all those different cultures felt even more alien before the internet, when most people knew very little about the world

One of the insults people would hurl at black people when I was a child, would be to call them 'spear chuckers', understandable perhaps, if the only black people you see en masse is in a Zulu film or Tarzan

When my mum came here in 1939, and walked out of Paddington Station, she saw her first ever black man, wearing a white suit and tap dancing for money, and she stood there for ages watching him cause she had heard about black people but wasnt sure whether it was true or not!!

I know that he worked with a lot of young black players who still say nice things about him, so maybe he's not so bad after all

Having said all that, I dont think he's gonna be in the running for winner

True dat. Though my mum was never racist and she grew up in postwar Salford. In fact she had a black boyfriend for a short time when she was 16.

Dad had some unpleasant views of muslims. But his family were from India and he'd grown up as a Raj child. They left just before partition and he saw some pretty nasty stuff that, I think, gave him a slightly warped view of them. In his defence though, he reeducated himself about that in later life.

My grandparents on my dad's side were racist. Grandfather would occasionally address asian doctors as 'boy' and had to be quietly reminded that he was not in the Raj any more. Gran was born and raised in Blumfontaine, South Africa, before moving to Calcutta. They both had some very strange ideas about race.

[Shaun]

he's everything that's crap about English men.

Obsessed with football to the point of it being a religion, wary of anything that isn't English and white, and a gobshite.

[alex_front2]

Ron is a racist. Probably why no one of colour is in show this year. I hate it when people who probably have never experienced racism in their lives *cough* say 'oooh all this PC-gone mad, black footballers ought to be greatful that the nice big white dude gave them their big breaks'.

*side eye*

[CaudleHalbard]

He certainly doesn't come across as having too many brain cells to rub together.

I'm remembering the incident now. He vehemently denied he was racist and cited the large number of black players he had recruited. I imagine he would be very upset if this issue was raised in the house.

But a person's language can be a clue to their psyche..........

[Ammi]

I think its an age thing, both my parents saw all races in a stereotypical way, it was the way things were in their era's

In fact I grew up in the 70's and things were the same then

The weird thing was that both my parents were Irish and had suffered the same kind of racism when they came here, but still saw black people as 'different'

What you have to remember is that when people like Ron were young, large scale immigration was still pretty new, and all those different cultures felt even more alien before the internet, when most people knew very little about the world

One of the insults people would hurl at black people when I was a child, would be to call them 'spear chuckers', understandable perhaps, if the only black people you see en masse is in a Zulu film or Tarzan

When my mum came here in 1939, and walked out of Paddington Station, she saw her first ever black man, wearing a white suit and tap dancing for money, and she stood there for ages watching him cause she had heard about black people but wasnt sure whether it was true or not!!

I know that he worked with a lot of young black players who still say nice things about him, so maybe he's not so bad after all

Having said all that, I dont think he's gonna be in the running for winner


..I understand what you're saying Miranda, there was a lot of racist comedians etc 'back in the day'..the 'day' that was meant to be such a greater day than today as well and a lot of it was ignorance, people not being educated etc..but isn't that what racism is though...ignorance..?....does age make it more acceptable because he's also lived through those years and should have been 'less ignorant' when he made that remark, he didn't make it as a young person who may not have understood it..?...

[GiRTh]

Ron Atkinson is NOT racist. He made a racist comment and he's paid the full price for that but remember he had three black players in his West BRom side in the 70's. He was criticised for this in a time when it would have been easy for him to only play white players he played players he thought were the best for their position. Ron
Atkison made a racist comment but Ron Atkinson is not racist.

[Niamh.]

He certainly doesn't come across as having too many brain cells to rub together.

I'm remembering the incident now. He vehemently denied he was racist and cited the large number of black players he had recruited. I imagine he would be very upset if this issue was raised in the house.

But a person's language can be a clue to their psyche..........

I don't know how he could claim he wasn't racist when he used the word ****** like that in a negative way about a black man

[Ammi]

He certainly doesn't come across as having too many brain cells to rub together.

I'm remembering the incident now. He vehemently denied he was racist and cited the large number of black players he had recruited. I imagine he would be very upset if this issue was raised in the house.

But a person's language can be a clue to their psyche..........


..I really hope it is raised, I would be very interested to hear what he has to say now..but he was a very good football manager and would choose the right players regardless of race, so I don't think his argument would necessarily indicate he wasn't racist, just good at his job....

[DanaC]

Ron Atkinson is NOT racist. He made a racist comment and he's paid the full price for that but remember he had three black players in his West BRom side in the 70's. He was criticised for this in a time when it would have been easy for him to only play white players he played players he thought were the best for their position. Ron
Atkison made a racist comment but Ron Atkinson is not racist.

Which means he was probably less racist than the rest of the footballing world at that time. But since the baseline for racism back then was people who actually thought black people were subhuman, that doesn't mean he was not at all racist.

[Lex]

I think its an age thing, both my parents saw all races in a stereotypical way, it was the way things were in their era's

In fact I grew up in the 70's and things were the same then

The weird thing was that both my parents were Irish and had suffered the same kind of racism when they came here, but still saw black people as 'different'

What you have to remember is that when people like Ron were young, large scale immigration was still pretty new, and all those different cultures felt even more alien before the internet, when most people knew very little about the world

One of the insults people would hurl at black people when I was a child, would be to call them 'spear chuckers', understandable perhaps, if the only black people you see en masse is in a Zulu film or Tarzan

When my mum came here in 1939, and walked out of Paddington Station, she saw her first ever black man, wearing a white suit and tap dancing for money, and she stood there for ages watching him cause she had heard about black people but wasnt sure whether it was true or not!!

I know that he worked with a lot of young black players who still say nice things about him, so maybe he's not so bad after all

Having said all that, I dont think he's gonna be in the running for winner

This is a fantastic post Miranda! :thumbs:...I myself am 84 years of age in a few weeks, and can totally confirm your assessment of "Old Racism"....it wasn't right of course, and perhaps we are being a little liberal with ourselves in describing 'racism' in the distant past as 'not so bad' and 'in much better humour'....but I have to insist that old racism had scant little comparison with todays bile-ridden nastiness towards people of a different creed and colour!

To me....Big Ron is a pillock for saying what he said...but definitely not a racist by today's definition! :nono:

And that's really all I have to say on the subject! ...Thanks.

[Ammi]

I don't know how he could claim he wasn't racist when he used the word ****** like that in a negative way about a black man

..why didn't he just say 'that lazy whatever..'..why use the n word..

[Livia]

Ron Atkinson is NOT racist. He made a racist comment and he's paid the full price for that but remember he had three black players in his West BRom side in the 70's. He was criticised for this in a time when it would have been easy for him to only play white players he played players he thought were the best for their position. Ron
Atkison made a racist comment but Ron Atkinson is not racist.

As usual, a very interesting point of view, G.

With anything other than football though, I maintain that he's an idiot.

[Ammi]

he's everything that's crap about English men.Obsessed with football to the point of it being a religion, wary of anything that isn't English and white, and a gobshite.

..this exactly, I wouldn't admire anything about him even without the racist comment...

[GiRTh]

Racism is not about making silly comments, racism in its purist form is about the prevention of different races from achieving their potential. Ron Atkinson had the chance to deny black people opportunities back in the 70's. He didn't. He was the only manager to promote black players and he made Brendon Batson captain. That does not fit into my definition of a racist.

[Ammi]

Ron Atkinson is NOT racist. He made a racist comment and he's paid the full price for that but remember he had three black players in his West BRom side in the 70's. He was criticised for this in a time when it would have been easy for him to only play white players he played players he thought were the best for their position. Ron
Atkison made a racist comment but Ron Atkinson is not racist.



..so does that not just make him good at being a football manager which to him was his passion, not that he wasn't racist..?..

[GiRTh]

As usual, a very interesting point of view, G.

With anything other than football though, I maintain that he's an idiot.He's an idiot for sure but not a racist idiot.

[GiRTh]

..so does that not just make him good at being a football manager which to him was his passion, not that he wasn't racist..?..Read my other post.

[Northern Monkey]

You have to remember,He grew up in the 40's and 50's,Using that word was perfectly acceptable in Britain back then when describing black people.There was even a colour called 'n****r brown',You would ask for items in shops in that colour such as cotton and furniture etc.The word is bad today,But Big Ron grew up with it as part of his vocabulary.He made a comment which today is seen as racist when he thought he was off air.Big Ron is NOT racist though.

[Jesus.]

So Ron is now the poster boy for whats bad about English men? That's laughable.

Football is a religion across many parts of the world, so that can be dismissed. Afraid of anything that isn't English? Well he went and lived and worked abroad. or White? He had black players in his team in an era when this wasn't normal.

Ron can be labeled many things, but it's way too simplistic to throw that around.

[chuff me dizzy]

Hes a lovely man ,nothing he has said in the past changes my views on him

[Kyle]

Also bear in mind football is the working class game, Ron Atkinson will have been brought up and experienced an environment where you would think nothing of throwing around comments like the n word, or ginger in the name of banter. it's not right by any stretch of the imagination and now for the most part we have moved on but a little context is required here.

[CaudleHalbard]

Maybe (just maybe) we should judge him on how he is as a housemate and not for an incident 9 years ago, over which he lost his job?

He certainly doesn't think he's racist. It will be interesting however to see if he shows any other signs of bigotry. If he does, that could be quite telling.

[Kyle]

Maybe (just maybe) we should judge him on how he is as a housemate and not for an incident 9 years ago, over which he lost his job?

He certainly doesn't think he's racist. It will be interesting however to see if he shows any other signs of bigotry. If he does, that could be quite telling.

If he does then I will withdraw my support of him within a second I don't subscribe to blind loyalty, however football managers are canny guys and I'm sure he's learned his lesson from the last incident.

[Jesus.]

Also bear in mind football is the working class game, Ron Atkinson will have been brought up and experienced an environment where you would think nothing of throwing around comments like the n word, or ginger in the name of banter. it's not right by any stretch of the imagination and now for the most part we have moved on but a little context is required here.

He didn't make these comments on 50's TV. He made the in the 00's. That's the context that people need to understand, not his upbringing. I'm sure many of our parents were brought up in times where racist language was in everyday use, but my parents would never use that.

[Kyle]

He didn't make these comments on 50's TV. He made the in the 00's. That's the context that people need to understand, not his upbringing. I'm sure many of our parents were brought up in times where racist language was in everyday use, but my parents would never use that.


His upbringing made him who he was. My Grandad went to the grave hating Germans even though the war was over years ago people of that generation are stuck in their ways. He made a gaff and he paid for it. He will have got with the times now that's for sure.

[DanaC]

This is a fantastic post Miranda! :thumbs:...I myself am 84 years of age in a few weeks, and can totally confirm your assessment of "Old Racism"....it wasn't right of course, and perhaps we are being a little liberal with ourselves in describing 'racism' in the distant past as 'not so bad' and 'in much better humour'....but I have to insist that old racism had scant little comparison with todays bile-ridden nastiness towards people of a different creed and colour!

To me....Big Ron is a pillock for saying what he said...but definitely not a racist by today's definition! :nono:

And that's really all I have to say on the subject! ...Thanks.

Oh I dunno about that. Boarding houses with 'No Dogs, no blacks, no Irish' signs, and some truly vile things said and shouted at people.

I saw a series of news voc pops in the wake of Windrush and my word, but that was some nasty stuff there. Ordinary, pleasant looking houswives with their faces contorted into expressions of hatred and revulsion as they discussed black and white mixed relationships. Talking about black people like they were animals.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

The truth is most of the older generations, people that lived in times where black stuck with blacks, and interacial mixing was throwned upon are not just going to magically stop having the views they grew up with. What I am trying to say is I am not surprised when a member of the older generation is racist. It's more believable then when people claim they have no prejudice. Of course I'm not saying it's acceptable, i'm just saying you can't be too surprised when a man like Ron has racist views and uses the words. He's going to be what he's going to be. Staying clear of people like him is best.

[GiRTh]

The comment he made was absolutely disgusting TBH and it was right for him to be fired and for people to make their accusation but IMO he's had plenty of chances to demonstrate true pure racism over the years and he hasnt. In fact he did the opposite. He promoted the black players at the expense of the white players.

[Ammi]

Read my other post.

..I read it, I still don't understand why that doesn't just mean he's good at his job and knowing the better player though...it doesn't indicate his lack of racism, I'm not saying I definitely think he is because I'm not sure about that but I don't think that indicates anything at all...

[smudgie]

Actions speak louder than words.


He did make a racist remark, but he also pushed for black players in his squad.


Stupid and insensitive remark, but I don't think he is an out and out racist.

[Ammi]

Also bear in mind football is the working class game, Ron Atkinson will have been brought up and experienced an environment where you would think nothing of throwing around comments like the n word, or ginger in the name of banter. it's not right by any stretch of the imagination and now for the most part we have moved on but a little context is required here.

..yeah, I think I understand that, which is why I'm undecided about this one now and listening to other people and perhaps people who know more about him than I do..but my context would be to think about my opinions of him, which wouldn't make me go the other way and like or support him either because the remark wasn't said 'generations' ago, it was only 10 years and I don't know anyone in my own friends/family or anyone I know either his age or older who would have ever used that terminology in my lifetime and not know it wasn't wrong and completely derogatory...

[Cherie]

For me I will judge him as to how he is in the house end of. Everyone makes mistakes in life. Hopefully he has learned from his.

[GiRTh]

..I read it, I still don't understand why that doesn't just mean he's good at his job and knowing the better player though...it doesn't indicate his lack of racism, I'm not saying I definitely think he is because I'm not sure about that but I don't think that indicates anything at all...:conf:

I don't get how you don't get it. Racism is a straight up choice between a black person and a white person the white person is picked every time no matter how good the black person is no matter how garbage the white person is. Its clear that Ron doesn't respect this philosophy and back in a time when there would have been little fuss he decided to put prejudices to one side and pick the best person for the job. :shrug:

[Livia]

Also bear in mind football is the working class game, Ron Atkinson will have been brought up and experienced an environment where you would think nothing of throwing around comments like the n word, or ginger in the name of banter. it's not right by any stretch of the imagination and now for the most part we have moved on but a little context is required here.

Coming from one of the poorest, most culturally diverse areas of London, I resent that remark. Since I moved to the country I've heard more blatant racism from the affluent middle classes that I ever heard from the working class.

[Kyle]

Coming from one of the poorest, most culturally diverse areas of London, I resent that remark. Since I moved to the country I've heard more blatant racism from the affluent middle classes that I ever heard from the working class.


Resent it all you want I have still been to football games and heard people say things like "pass it to the black lad" or "watch the darkie". Thankfully it's rare now but it still happens.

I don't hang around with middle class people because I am WORKING CLASS but I have no doubt they can be guilty of racism too, though my main gripe with them is elitism but then again I'm white.

[lime]

It was certainly a racist comment but I don't know enough about him to call him a racist.

I do however question why he felt the need to bring colour into his judgement of the player.As an Afrikaner it reminds me of South Africa were if a white did something stupid they were dumb ,but if a black did the same thing they would be a dumb Kaffer.

[Black Dagger]

I don't think he's a racist... just a moron.

[Livia]

Resent it all you want I have still been to football games and heard people say things like "pass it to the black lad" or "watch the darkie". Thankfully it's rare now but it still happens.

I don't hang around with middle class people because I am WORKING CLASS but I have no doubt they can be guilty of racism too, though my main gripe with them is elitism but then again I'm white.

I'm a West Ham fan, I know what they sing. You get racists everywhere although I'm not sure what's particularly racist about "pass it to the black lad"?

You post asked us to consider poor Ron being born into a working class background, intimating we should make exceptions for him because of that. Erm... no.

[Verbal]

He is no more of a racist than anybody else of his generation. During the 60s & 70s racism was prevalent on family tv shows like love thy neighbour, in sickness and in health, and dozens more. Go onto youtube and watch a couple of episodes of various comedy shows that were shown early evening in the 70s, they are by todays standards very, very shocking.

They also grew up at a very different time, when homosexuality was illegal and racism was part and parcel of everyday life.

If he was in his mid 30s and said what he did it would be justified to vilify him, but a 78 year old man made a naive and silly comment.

Lets be honest, if you go into any workingmans club even now, you will hear such things bandied about like they're going out of fashion, by older men who just plain do not grasp how offensive these words are deemed these days. But every single one of them would not think twice to help someone of colour who was in physical danger. They just see it as a throwaway remark that when they were in their 20s and 30s was seen very differently.

I've heard my own mother, who is 60 years old, about 9 stone and would neither be capable or want to harm a fly say things like 'you look like a n****r' when a fried has come back off holiday. On hearing her say this before I looked at her and said 'you cant say that' and she looked at me daft.

Its a generational thing

He slipped up

Its wrong and he has apologised for it over and over.

Get over it.

[Livia]

LOL "Get over it". Funny how easily that's said when the issue doesn't affect you.

[Black Dagger]

Oh yes I'm sure Marcel should just bloody get over being called a lazy ******.

[GiRTh]

The only time he apologised was on the Wife swap show and that was when his wife told him to.

[Kyle]

I'm a West Ham fan, I know what they sing. You get racists everywhere although I'm not sure what's particularly racist about "pass it to the black lad"?

You post asked us to consider poor Ron being born into a working class background, intimating we should make exceptions for him because of that. Erm... no.

Where am I making exceptions? I said context not exception, football in England has mostly been a white working class sport for decades.

If we were talking about Rugby or cricket then by all means lets discuss the upper echelons of society and their deep set racist ways.

And as for "pass it to the black lad" I've seen people done for less. Alan Hanson was castigated for using the word coloured when describing a player.

[Livia]

Where am I making exceptions? I said context not exception, football in England has mostly been a white working class sport for decades.

If we were talking about Rugby or cricket then by all means lets discuss the upper echelons of society and their deep set racist ways.

And as for "pass it to the black lad" I've seen people done for less. Alan Hanson was castigated for using the word coloured when describing a player.

You said, and I quote "Also bear in mind football is the working class game, Ron Atkinson will have been brought up and experienced an environment where you would think nothing of throwing around comments like the n word" Are you not saying there that he was brought up working class where people would think nothing of using the N word? Because that's what it looks like to me.

I only mentioned that I've heard more racist language from the middle-class than I did from the working class because you had said how inherently racist the working class is! I think you know that though, you're just talking about cricket and "upper echelons" to muddy the waters. That's fine...

Coloured is not an acceptable word and quite right Hanson should have been pulled up for it. Although I don't think anyone's going to mind someone saying "pass it to the black lad", and it's quite out of touch to assume that it would be.

[Verbal]

You said, and I quote "Also bear in mind football is the working class game, Ron Atkinson will have been brought up and experienced an environment where you would think nothing of throwing around comments like the n word" Are you not saying there that he was brought up working class where people would think nothing of using the N word? Because that's what it looks like to me.

I only mentioned that I've heard more racist language from the middle-class than I did from the working class because you had said how inherently racist the working class is! I think you know that though, you're just talking about cricket and "upper echelons" to muddy the waters. That's fine...

Coloured is not an acceptable word and quite right Hanson should have been pulled up for it. Although I don't think anyone's going to mind someone saying "pass it to the black lad", and it's quite out of touch to assume that it would be.

That and far far worse was more than acceptable 30 years ago.

[Kyle]

You said, and I quote "Also bear in mind football is the working class game, Ron Atkinson will have been brought up and experienced an environment where you would think nothing of throwing around comments like the n word" Are you not saying there that he was brought up working class where people would think nothing of using the N word? Because that's what it looks like to me.

I only mentioned that I've heard more racist language from the middle-class than I did from the working class because you had said how inherently racist the working class is! I think you know that though, you're just talking about cricket and "upper echelons" to muddy the waters. That's fine...

Coloured is not an acceptable word and quite right Hanson should have been pulled up for it. Although I don't think anyone's going to mind someone saying "pass it to the black lad", and it's quite out of touch to assume that it would be.


So coloured is bang out of order and black is fine? Reet then...

[DanaC]

Well...I think he's probably racist to a degree. There are levels of racism.



Coloured was at one time the more politically correct term (as opposed to the N word) it's become unacceptable. Language shifts.

[GiRTh]

So coloured is bang out of order and black is fine? Reet then...Yes. Would you like to know why? Coloured is a term that is associated with apartheid.

[Kyle]

Well...I think he's probably racist to a degree. There are levels of racism.

That's a whole new debate, Inherent racism and all that.

[Kyle]

Yes. Would you like to know why? Coloured is a term that is associated with apartheid.

Well lets be pedantic, black is a term associated with slaves.

[DanaC]

It's also because saying they are 'coloured' suggests that, rather than simply being a different colour to white people (ie two different colours), white people have no colour, they are simply the norm, whereas black people have a colour.

[GiRTh]

Well lets be pedantic, black is a term associated with slaves.Negro is associated with slaves

[CaudleHalbard]

So coloured is bang out of order and black is fine? Reet then...

It used to be that referring to a person as 'black' was almost as bad as the dreaded n-word and that 'coloured' was perfectly polite.

Funny old world, eh? ;)

[GiRTh]

It used to be that referring to a person as 'black' was almost as bad as the dreaded n-word and that 'coloured' was perfectly polite.

Funny old world, eh? ;)

That was never the case in the black community. I don't know where you get that from.

[DanaC]

I think that's more of an American thing: with people wanting tobe called African American instead of black.

[Northern Monkey]

Well,People say 'coloured' all the time where i'm from,I grew up hearing it,I'm only in my early 30's.Maybe different words are offensive in certain areas and not in others?

[Kyle]

It's also because saying they are 'coloured' suggests that, rather than simply being a different colour to white people (ie two different colours) it suggests that whte people have no colour, they are simply the norm, whereas black people have a colour.

I think it's best if we as people never ever mention anybody's skin colour as anything in case the old PC brigade wheel up and frisk you off for a seminar.

[GiRTh]

I think that's more of an American thing: with people wanting tobe called African American instead of black.That's not the case either. In my world and my household it has been black for as long as I can remember

[DanaC]

I also hear people say coloured. Usually no harm is meant by it.

[Kyle]

It used to be that referring to a person as 'black' was almost as bad as the dreaded n-word and that 'coloured' was perfectly polite.

Funny old world, eh? ;)

Lol it certainly is.

[DanaC]

That's not the case either. In my world and my household it has been black for as long as I can remember

I don't mean all black people in America. I just mean there was a move that came out of America towards the African American label, rather than black. I don't think it was a massive move, I just think it got a lot of airtime (primarily in the form of people having heated arguments and defending their right to continue to use terminology or defending their right not to have to continue to use terminology...:P

[Ammi]

:conf:

I don't get how you don't get it. Racism is a straight up choice between a black person and a white person the white person is picked every time no matter how good the black person is no matter how garbage the white person is. Its clear that Ron doesn't respect this philosophy and back in a time when there would have been little fuss he decided to put prejudices to one side and pick the best person for the job. :shrug:

...he chose the best person for the job because he was good at his job and passionate about it more than anything else, I do believe that but that still doesn't necessarily indicate that he wasn't/isn't racist necessarily though..just that 'sense' of the better player overruled everything else for him..

That and far far worse was more than acceptable 30 years ago.

..but it wasn't acceptable 30 years ago though..maybe words terminology was used 30 years ago but it wasn't 'acceptable' then either...

[Livia]

That and far far worse was more than acceptable 30 years ago.

Maybe, but things move on. If he has the mental capacity to run a successful football club you'd think he'd be able to learn some simple manners. He's older, he should be wiser.

So coloured is bang out of order and black is fine? Reet then...

I didn't say "coloured" was bang out of order, I said it was unacceptable. I don't get what's so hard to understand about that.

[Niamh.]

I don't mean all black people in America. I just mean there was a move that came out of America towards the African American label, rather than black. I don't think it was a massive move, I just think it got a lot of airtime (primarily in the form of people having heated arguments and defending their right to continue to use terminology or defending their right not to have to continue to use terminology...:P

They do that alot though with Irish Americans and Italian Americans, seems to be less to to with colour and more to do with roots and where they originated from

[DanaC]

I think it's best if we as people never ever mention anybody's skin colour as anything in case the old PC brigade wheel up and frisk you off for a seminar.

Oh those terrible PC brigades. Wanting not to cause unnecesary offence to people.

Never understood why people get so het up about it. If I discover that a word I am accustomed to using is actually offensive to the people that word concerns, why would I wish to dig in my heels against that?

An occasional moment's discomfort over not being sure of the currently acceptable word is worth it for a society that tries not to cause hurt to people because of who or what they are.

[Livia]

They do that alot though with Irish Americans and Italian Americans, seems to be less to to with colour and more to do with roots and where they originated from

And yet... by far the largest group to migrate to the USA was the English, according to the resource centre at Ellis Island. And yet no one ever hears someone described as an English American.

[Niamh.]

And yet... by far the largest group to migrate to the USA was the English, according to the resource centre at Ellis Island. And yet no one ever hears someone described as an English American.

Yeah, that's true actually, I never even thought of that, I wonder why that is?

[Roy Mars III]

Yeah, that's true actually, I never even thought of that, I wonder why that is?

because no one would ever want to admit to something as terrible as that

[Livia]

I think it's best if we as people never ever mention anybody's skin colour as anything in case the old PC brigade wheel up and frisk you off for a seminar.

It always makes me smile when people who want other people to be respected for who they are rather than what colour they are or where they come from, are referred to as the "PC Brigade".

[Niamh.]

because no one would ever want to admit to something as terrible as that

:laugh:

[Kyle]

Oh those terrible PC brigades. Wanting not to cause unnecesary offence to people.

Never understood why people get so het up about it. If I discover that a word I am accustomed to using is actually offensive to the people that word concerns, why would wish to dig in my heels against that?

An occasional moment's discomfort over not being sure of the currently acceptable word is worth it for a society that tries not to cause hurt to people because of who or what they are.

Because they always go above and beyond their station.


Racism is wrong, good we are sorting it out.

Alan Hanson calls a player coloured on tv with no malice or hint of disgust and the knives are out.

That is what the PC brigade has done. People are now looking to be offended at EVERYTHING.

[GiRTh]

...he chose the best person for the job because he was good at his job and passionate about it more than anything else, I do believe that but that still doesn't necessarily indicate that he wasn't/isn't racist necessarily though..just that 'sense' of the better player overruled everything else for him..To a racist , homophobe, sexist etc. Nothing matters more than their stupid little prejudice. I have an uncle who is a very religious 7th day Adventist fool and as soon as he hears the word gay he almost shuts down. I'm not joking. He such a homophobe that nothing else matters to him. Trust me. If Ron was a true racist he most definitely would NOT have played black players, no matter how good they were and no matter how sh*t the white players were. This happened in Basketball in the 1950's when Red Auerbach became coach of the Celtics and had to endure all the racism that came with him playing black players.

[Brother Leon]

What he said was disgusting and should not be forgotten or forgiven. What he has done for black footballers though also should not be forgotten. Just a shame it was outdone by a severe comment.

..so does that not just make him good at being a football manager which to him was his passion, not that he wasn't racist..?..

If he was truly racist, he would not Of played the players regardless of their quality due to their skin colour though.

[Livia]

because no one would ever want to admit to something as terrible as that

Wow...

[Niamh.]

Wow...

he's only joking Livia :laugh:

[Kyle]

And yet... by far the largest group to migrate to the USA was the English, according to the resource centre at Ellis Island. And yet no one ever hears someone described as an English American.

The term Yankee originated from English settlers in the colonies although now it has lost it's meaning and tends to encompass all people from the states.

[CaudleHalbard]

Negro used to be perfectly ok as well. It is merely the Spanish word for black. The feminine derivative - negress - was also fine.... but would nowadays be considered both racist and sexist!

Worth noting that the Latin for black is niger (with one 'g').

It is interesting how words, formerly inoffensive, can become offensive.......... and vice-versa!

[Niamh.]

Negro used to be perfectly ok as well. It is merely the Spanish word for black. The feminine derivative - negress - was also fine.... but would nowadays be considered both racist and sexist!

Worth noting that the Latin for black is niger (with one 'g').

It is interesting how words, formerly inoffensive, can become offensive.......... and vice-versa!

I guess it only became a racist word after it was used in a racist manner due to slavery. Words are just letters until they're used in a positive or negative way by people

[CaudleHalbard]

But that doesn't explain why 'black', formerly offensive, is no longer so?

[smudgie]

To a racist , homophobe, sexist etc. Nothing matters more than their stupid little prejudice. I have an uncle who is a very religious 7th day Adventist fool and as soon as he hears the word gay he almost shuts down. I'm not joking. He such a homophobe that nothing else matters to him. Trust me. If Ron was a true racist he most definitely would NOT have played black players, no matter how good they were and no matter how sh*t the white players were. This happened in Basketball in the 1950's when Red Auerbach became coach of the Celtics and had to endure all the racism that came with him playing black players.

Great post. It says it all really.:hugesmile:

[Niamh.]

But that doesn't explain why 'black', formerly offensive, is no longer so?

Was Black formerly offensive?

[HBB1508]

To a racist , homophobe, sexist etc. Nothing matters more than their stupid little prejudice. I have an uncle who is a very religious 7th day Adventist fool and as soon as he hears the word gay he almost shuts down. I'm not joking. He such a homophobe that nothing else matters to him. Trust me. If Ron was a true racist he most definitely would NOT have played black players, no matter how good they were and no matter how sh*t the white players were. This happened in Basketball in the 1950's when Red Auerbach became coach of the Celtics and had to endure all the racism that came with him playing black players.

:thumbs: Actions speak louder than words.

[DanaC]

To a racist , homophobe, sexist etc. Nothing matters more than their stupid little prejudice. I have an uncle who is a very religious 7th day Adventist fool and as soon as he hears the word gay he almost shuts down. I'm not joking. He such a homophobe that nothing else matters to him. Trust me. If Ron was a true racist he most definitely would NOT have played black players, no matter how good they were and no matter how sh*t the white players were. This happened in Basketball in the 1950's when Red Auerbach became coach of the Celtics and had to endure all the racism that came with him playing black players.

That's a very narrow definition of racism. How about a racist outlook that accepts that black people can be good at sports, but also thinks they are lazy and need extra motivation because of it, or that they are excellent runners, but you wouldn't want one marrying your daughter etc. etc.

Even a racist employer, presented with a white candidate with no qualification for the job and a black candidate with all the right qualifications of the job, might give that job to the black candidate. Now, if a slightly underqualified white candidate were up against that perfectly qualified black candidate, that might be a different story.

I have known people who subscribe absolutely to the tenets of the National Front, daubed 'Go Home' and swastikas on the houses of pakistanis yet have been perfectly friendly with some local pakistani lads.

Racism (all isms) is multilayered.

It is entirely possible for someone who is racist to also allow for some qualities/individual talents in the people against whom they are prejudiced. Often framed in a fairly racist way (all blacks are fast runners, virile/Indian workers who are quiet and hardworking, because in their eyes those people are naturally given to servility etc.).

It's also possible for people to hold two sets of entirely contradictory views about the same set of people. Or have vastly different views of pakistanis and Indians, black people and the Chinese etc etc.

[CaudleHalbard]

Was Black formerly offensive?

Absolutely! Some people of an older generation still feel it is rude.

[Northern Monkey]

Because they always go above and beyond their station.


Racism is wrong, good we are sorting it out.

Alan Hanson calls a player coloured on tv with no malice or hint of disgust and the knives are out.

That is what the PC brigade has done. People are now looking to be offended at EVERYTHING.

Yep,Soon we'll be going round saying "IC3 male" instead of "black man",Like the police.PC can be very overboard,Just like the other year when the PC brigade tried to ban Merry Christmas signs incase they offended the muslims.Ridiculous.

[CaudleHalbard]

Just don't ask Big Ron what he thinks of the Chinese! ;)

[lime]

That's a very narrow definition of racism. How about a racist outlook that accepts that black people can be good at sports, but also thinks they are lazy and need extra motivation because of it, or that they are excellent runners, but you wouldn't want one marrying your daughter etc. etc.

Even a racist employer, presented with a white candidate with no qualification for the job and a black candidate with all the right qualifications of the job, might give that job to the black candidate. Now, if a slightly underqualified white candidate were up against that perfectly qualified black candidate, that might be a different story.

I have known people who subscribe absolutely to the tenets of the National Front, daubed 'Go Home' and swastikas on the houses of pakistanis yet have been perfectly friendly with some local pakistani lads.

Racism (all isms) is multilayered.

It is entirely possible for someone who is racist to also allow for some qualities/individual talents in the people against whom they are prejudiced. Often framed in a fairly racist way (all blacks are fast runners, virile/Indian workers who are quiet and hardworking, because in their eyes those people are naturally given to servility etc.).

It's also possible for people to hold two sets of entirely contradictory views about the same set of people. Or have vastly different views of pakistanis and Indians, black people and the Chinese etc etc.

Well said Dana

[MrWong]

Yep,Soon we'll be going round saying "IC3 male" instead of "black man",Like the police.PC can be very overboard, Just like the other year when the PC brigade tried to ban Merry Christmas signs incase they offended the muslims.Ridiculous.

Did you get that from the Daily Mail?

[DanaC]

Yep,Soon we'll be going round saying "IC3 male" instead of "black man",Like the police.PC can be very overboard,Just like the other year when the PC brigade tried to ban Merry Christmas signs incase they offended the muslims.Ridiculous.

Because they offended the muslims? Or because some individual official decided it might offend them?

if indeed it even happened.

Doorstepping in the run up elections I lost count of the times people told me that 'they can't even put Christmas decorations up in Bradford now!'...utter crap: I shop there every year and you can't ****ing move for Christmas nativity scenes and giant santas.

Or the evergreen claim that 'They can't even put the St George's flag up in the TownHall on St Georges Day!' - again utter bollocks. We had a meeting that very year ion St George's day and there was a flag the size of a boat sail draped on Hall wall.

[Niamh.]

Absolutely! Some people of an older generation still feel it is rude.

ahh I didn't know that

[Niamh.]

Because they offended the muslims? Or because some individual official decided it might offend them?

if indeed it even happened.

Doorstepping in the run up elections I lost count of the times people told me that 'they can't even put Christmas decorations up in Bradford now!'...utter crap: I shop there every year and you can't ****ing move for Christmas nativity scenes and giant santas.

Or the evergreen claim that 'They can't even put the St George's flag up in the TownHall on St Georges Day!' - again utter bollocks. We had a meeting that very year ion St George's day and there was a flag the size of a boat sail draped on Hall wall.

lol I think that banning Christmas s**t is more of an Urban legend, it pops up every now and then

[Northern Monkey]

Did you get that from the Daily Mail?

It happened.A local council in some town(can't remember where),Wanted shops to take down Merry Christmas banners incase Muslims were offended.This was political correctness gone well overboard.

[DanaC]

It always makes me smile when people who want other people to be respected for who they are rather than what colour they are or where they come from, are referred to as the "PC Brigade".

*smiles* well said.

[GiRTh]

That's a very narrow definition of racism. How about a racist outlook that accepts that black people can be good at sports, but also thinks they are lazy and need extra motivation because of it, or that they are excellent runners, but you wouldn't want one marrying your daughter etc. etc.

Even a racist employer, presented with a white candidate with no qualification for the job and a black candidate with all the right qualifications of the job, might give that job to the black candidate. Now, if a slightly underqualified white candidate were up against that perfectly qualified black candidate, that might be a different story.

I have known people who subscribe absolutely to the tenets of the National Front, daubed 'Go Home' and swastikas on the houses of pakistanis yet have been perfectly friendly with some local pakistani lads.

Racism (all isms) is multilayered.

It is entirely possible for someone who is racist to also allow for some qualities/individual talents in the people against whom they are prejudiced. Often framed in a fairly racist way (all blacks are fast runners, virile/Indian workers who are quiet and hardworking, because in their eyes those people are naturally given to servility etc.).

It's also possible for people to hold two sets of entirely contradictory views about the same set of people. Or have vastly different views of pakistanis and Indians, black people and the Chinese etc etc.Firstly I didn't define racism, I defined racism at its purist and I've used that term a few times. Making a silly comment is not pure/real racism pure/real racism involves some kind of power.

You're talking more about stereotyping in this post. Stereotyping/profiling is not real/pure racism cus there is no power involved and is much more prevalent that pure racism.

[CaudleHalbard]

Even my best mate feels uncomfortable using the word black - he's from a small village in Hampshire where black people are noticeable by their absence. They have not yet caught up with what words are nowadays ok or not ok !;)

[Niamh.]

It happened.A local council in some town(can't remember where),Wanted shops to take down Merry Christmas banners incase Muslims were offended.This was political correctness gone well overboard.

Some town = Urban Legend

[Kyle]

Because they offended the muslims? Or because some individual official decided it might offend them?

if indeed it even happened.

Doorstepping in the run up elections I lost count of the times people told me that 'they can't even put Christmas decorations up in Bradford now!'...utter crap: I shop there every year and you can't ****ing move for Christmas nativity scenes and giant santas.

Or the evergreen claim that 'They can't even put the St George's flag up in the TownHall on St Georges Day!' - again utter bollocks. We had a meeting that very year ion St George's day and there was a flag the size of a boat sail draped on Hall wall.

You can scoff at him all you want but when I was an apprentice for A local Council I got the chance to design a flower bed at the entrance of a Central Park. Because of the World Cup I decided on a St. George's Cross and we all agreed. 4 days later I was told to scrap that idea because the suits decided it would cause division within the towns community.

[DanaC]

Firstly I didn't define racism, I defined racism at its purist and I've used that term a few times. Making a silly comment is not pure/real racism pure/real racism involves some kind of power.

You're talking more about stereotyping in this post. Stereotyping/profiling is not real/pure racism cus there is no power involved and is much more prevalent that pure racism.

The employer in my scenario had power.


Incidentally:

The definition of racism in Collins dictionary—

n
1. the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others
2. abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief

[Northern Monkey]

[QUOTE=DanaC;6323423]Because they offended the muslims? Or because some individual official decided it might offend them?

This is what i'm saying!I'm not saying any Muslims were offended by Christmas banners,I'm saying some PC council idiot decided that Christmas banners could offend.

[MrWong]

It happened.A local council in some town(can't remember where),Wanted shops to take down Merry Christmas banners incase Muslims were offended.This was political correctness gone well overboard.

Far more likely that it was a suggestion made by one person that was ignored, rather than an entire council.

[Napoleon_Solo.]

Even my best mate feels uncomfortable using the word black - he's from a small village in Hampshire where black people are noticeable by their absence. They have not yet caught up with what words are nowadays ok or not ok !;)

I don't know of any people, (apart from black.) that are labelled purely because of their colour of skin, having said that, I don't know of any black person being described as black actually being offended by the term...It all depends on what context it is being used.
Most people would like to be judged as the person they are and not what skin colour they happen to have.

[GiRTh]

The employer in my scenario had power.


Incidentally:

The definition of racism in Collins dictionary—The employer was guilty of profiling.

EDIT: In your example you say an employer might given the job to black employer. No a racist employer would NOT give the job to a black person. So in your example the boss is not racist ion that respect but may well be racist in other ways.

[DanaC]

[QUOTE=DanaC;6323423]Because they offended the muslims? Or because some individual official decided it might offend them?

This is what i'm saying!I'm not saying any Muslims were offended by Christmas banners,I'm saying some PC council idiot decided that Christmas banners could offend.

By far the most common form of 'pc' action or intent in councils is a genuine attempt to promote community cohesion and avoid causing offence and alienation of minorities within their borough. This very rarely involves the kind of nonsense you are referring to.

That's like deciding that, because a bloke in the Parking Dept. used the work '****' councils across the land are racist organisations.

We don't then all get into a huff about the nazi brigades.

[Kyle]

I don't know of any people, (apart from black.) that are labelled purely because of their colour of skin, having said that, I don't know of any black person being described as black actually being offended by the term...It all depends on what context it is being used.
Most people would like to be judged as the person they are and not what skin colour they happen to have.

Absolutely. I think often Implying offence can be as dangerous as real offence at times.


This only happened to me once so I can't claim racial prejudice or anything but I was called a white milky bar bastard by someone of Asian lineage and it was the most hilarious thing I ever heard. I was far from offended.

[DanaC]

The employer was guilty of profiling.

Based on race or colour and in the context of him having power over that person in terms of a hiring decision.

[GiRTh]

Based on race or colour and in the context of him having power over that person in terms of a hiring decision.A racist employer would not even consider a black applicant.

[DanaC]

Absolutely. I think often Implying offence can be as dangerous as real offence at times.


This only happened to me once so I can't claim racial prejudice or anything but I was called a white milky bar bastard by someone of Asian lineage and it was the most hilarious thing I ever heard. I was far from offended.

There is not the same historical legacy involved. Nor do we live in a current world in which British Asians predominately have economic and political power over white British.

[DanaC]

A racist employer would not even consider a black applicant.

Some racist employers wouldn't. You could even say many. But people are complicated creatures. If racist employers would never even consider a black person for a job, then there would never have been a situation in which black employees were subjected to racism by their employers.

[Niamh.]

I don't know of any people, (apart from black.) that are labelled purely because of their colour of skin, having said that, I don't know of any black person being described as black actually being offended by the term...It all depends on what context it is being used.
Most people would like to be judged as the person they are and not what skin colour they happen to have.

Yeah, like obviously I'm not offended if someone calls me Irish, I am Irish, but if someone says "You stupid Irish bitch" it's seems to say that being Irish is part of the insult

[Northern Monkey]

Me and an Asian lad at school always used to call each other racist names as a joke and laughed about it.No offence was taken on either side.

[Kyle]

There is not the same historical legacy involved. Nor do we live in a current world in which British Asians predominately have economic and political power over white British.

Ah let's wheel out that one. If there's 3 Asians and just me they have all the power they want over me if they choose to assault me, which fortunately they didn't. British Colonial history certainly wasn't in any of our minds at that time.

[DanaC]

Not saying you wuoldn't feel scared, or at risk or insulted. But 'white' as an insult doesn't carry much weight in a place where 'white' is the default colour and where 'white' is associated primarily with cultural power and dominance rather than cultural trauma and oppression.


Bit like a bloke saying' I was called a slut once, it didn't offend me!'

[Northern Monkey]

Not saying you wuoldn't feel scared, or at risk or insulted. But 'white' as an insult doesn't carry much weight in a place where 'white' is the default colour and where 'white' is associated primarily with cultural power and dominance rather than cultural trauma and oppression.

Racism works both ways.You can't say it's one rule for one and not for another.

[Ammi]

To a racist , homophobe, sexist etc. Nothing matters more than their stupid little prejudice. I have an uncle who is a very religious 7th day Adventist fool and as soon as he hears the word gay he almost shuts down. I'm not joking. He such a homophobe that nothing else matters to him. Trust me. If Ron was a true racist he most definitely would NOT have played black players, no matter how good they were and no matter how sh*t the white players were. This happened in Basketball in the 1950's when Red Auerbach became coach of the Celtics and had to endure all the racism that came with him playing black players.

What he said was disgusting and should not be forgotten or forgiven. What he has done for black footballers though also should not be forgotten. Just a shame it was outdone by a severe comment.



If he was truly racist, he would not Of played the players regardless of their quality due to their skin colour though.


..hmm, ok I understand what you're both saying and this is the main reason why I wanted to make the thread, to get other people's opinions because I don't know an awful lot about him other than that one comment which was indeed disgusting but for me made worse by the fact that he didn't appear to be sorry about it when I saw him on Wife Swap...I do see that the balance of positive things he did should define him as well though and I understand more what they were and maybe prejudices he himself faced for his decisions..thank you for your intelligent opinions...

[DanaC]

I didn't say it wasn't racist.

[Kyle]

Not saying you wuoldn't feel scared, or at risk or insulted. But 'white' as an insult doesn't carry much weight in a place where 'white' is the default colour and where 'white' is associated primarily with cultural power and dominance rather than cultural trauma and oppression.


Bit like a bloke saying' I was called a slut once, it didn't offend me!'

Course it wouldn't insult me, I am not a woman.


So what your saying is I have to live in a country where I am in a minority to be a victim of racism?

[Kyle]

I'm getting the feeling here Dana and I don't mean to jump the gun so I apologise in advance but me being a white, heterosexual male adult aged 24 means that I am excluded from being offended by anything?

[CaudleHalbard]

I'm getting the feeling here Dana and I don't mean to jump the gun so I apologise in advance but me being a white, heterosexual male adult aged 24 means that I am excluded from being offended by anything?

Being called "white trash" by a posh black person might offend you?

It all depends on context... the reference to your racial characteristics could, arguably, add to the offence?

[DanaC]

You can and presumably are offended by whatever you find offensive.

I was resonding to this:

Absolutely. I think often Implying offence can be as dangerous as real offence at times.


This only happened to me once so I can't claim racial prejudice or anything but I was called a white milky bar bastard by someone of Asian lineage and it was the most hilarious thing I ever heard. I was far from offended.

I was suggesting that there is a good reason as to why you were 'far from offended' and why it was 'the most hilarious thing' you ever heard.

I would suggest the lesson from that is not that asians should be less offended by racism (after all it didn't offend you!) but rather that racism is experienced differently when you are part of a minority race in a country that has been (and some would argue still is) both culturally and systemically prejudiced against your race.

[Kyle]

You can and presumably are offended by whatever you find offensive.

I was resonding to this:



I was suggesting that there is a good reason as to why you were 'far from offended' and why it was 'the most hilarious thing' you ever heard.

I would suggest the lesson from that is not that asians should be less offended by racism (after all it didn't offend you!) but rather that racism is experienced differently when you are part of a minority race in a country that has been (and some would argue still is) both culturally and systemically prejudiced against your race.

Fair enough.

I respect your opinion and I believe we want the same goal however we branch off a little in the application.

It's the last I will say on the subject except I have enjoyed the debate it has been good.

See you around the forum. :spin:

[DanaC]

Course it wouldn't insult me, I am not a woman.


So what your saying is I have to live in a country where I am in a minority to be a victim of racism?

Nope. I'm saying what offends you is likely to be different to what offends someone with a different experience of life.

[DanaC]

But to go back to the OP: I don't think it's the be all and end all of someone if they have racist views, or have acted in a racist way. Not saying it doesn't colour (:p) my opinion of them, but people are complex and people can and do change their views in life.

I am not much drawn to him though...regardless of this issue. He just doesn't interest me particularly as a person. But we'll see how it goes. maybe he'll turn out to be funny and warm...

[CaudleHalbard]

I have a feeling Ron is still trying to alter public perception of him. His appearance on Celebrity Wife Swap didn't work well with him in denial basically.

[DanaC]

I have a feeling Ron is still trying to alter public perception of him. His appearance on Celebrity Wife Swap didn't work well with him in denial basically.

I didn't see the WifeSwap. I might see if I can find a clip on Youtube.

[DanaC]

Me and an Asian lad at school always used to call each other racist names as a joke and laughed about it.No offence was taken on either side.

Oh I don't doubt it. This stuiff is almost always contextual.

[CaudleHalbard]

I didn't see the WifeSwap. I might see if I can find a clip on Youtube.

It was a black woman he was paired with, as I recall.

[DanaC]

Ouch. Didn't go very well then?



I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say i don't expect he has very modern views on women either?

[MeMyselfAndI]

I don't like him

[Ellen]

It was a black woman he was paired with, as I recall.

I think it was Tessa Sanderson who he was paired with on Wife Swap.

[Fosse]

The man is a moron.

[Kazanne]

My great grandma used to have a black dog called n***a,that just wouldn't be allowed now

[CaudleHalbard]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say i don't expect he has very modern views on women either?

As I vaguely recall Ron's takes the "woman's place is in the kitchen" line on gender roles! :D

[MeMyselfAndI]

What makes me laugh though, are fans of Ron's judge Courtney, an 18 year old girl :laugh2:

[DanaC]

As I vaguely recall Ron's takes the "woman's place is in the kitchen" line on gender roles! :D

Yeah. I thought that might be the case :p

[Niamh.]

My great grandma used to have a black dog called n***a,that just wouldn't be allowed now

Oh Dear, Imagine shouting that in the park :shocked:

[Ammi]

I have a feeling Ron is still trying to alter public perception of him. His appearance on Celebrity Wife Swap didn't work well with him in denial basically.

It was a black woman he was paired with, as I recall.

I think it was Tessa Sanderson who he was paired with on Wife Swap.

..yeah, that was a big part of it for me as well that he didn't seem to be particularly bothered and refused to talk about it with Tessa..it was his wife who listened to what Tessa's partner had to say and then explained it to Ron, he seemed to realise a little more but I wasn't even convinced that he did completely...he just seemed to be really closed and blinkered in his views and wouldn't even listen to anyone else...

What makes me laugh though, are fans of Ron's judge Courtney, an 18 year old girl :laugh2:

..yeah, I do agree about Courtney..she's being judged because she married a much older guy..?...that doesn't make any sense to me either...

[Ammi]

I didn't see the WifeSwap. I might see if I can find a clip on Youtube.

..I've just had a look for you and I can't find it on Youtube, Dana but I'm sure you'll be able to watch it somewhere online....

[Lozzibear]

No, I don't think he is racist.

[BBfan46]

He made a racist comment and meant it to offend. We have to acknowledge the difference in era and maybe it was an unfortunate slip.

I don't think he views other races as lesser. As others have said, he probably just holds archaic, stereotypical views.

[chuff me dizzy]

Being called "white trash" by a posh black person might offend you?

It all depends on context... the reference to your racial characteristics could, arguably, add to the offence?

Like Jackson did with Jade Goody ? but ALL accepted ,but Jade got hounded for her"racism"

[Videostar]

BIG Ron has done more to promote black players in The English Game than anyone, you ask any of the players of colour who played under him and they'll all defend him and tell you that he is no racist.

[Ryan57]

We've all said silly things that we later regretted. He's managed black players in his managerial career.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Like Jackson did with Jade Goody ? but ALL accepted ,but Jade got hounded for her"racism"

Jade was clearly racist, what is wrong with you??????

[Beso]

I think it,s just the way things are for his generation. Can we all sit here and say my dad ain't ever said anything like that before..do we love our dads? Of course we do. Unconditionally.

What we have to remember is big Ron is the man that introduced Gareth crooks and Laurie Cunningham to big time football, so I,d say his comments were more ignorant than racist..

[Rob!]

One racist comment doesn't make you a complete bigot in my opinion....But I don't really know the full story tbh.

[chuff me dizzy]

Jade was clearly racist, what is wrong with you??????

Please add IMO as it is not my opinion,was Jackson racist in your opinion ?

[joeysteele]

I like Ron Atkinson, he is an absolute legend to one of my older Brothers as a football manager.
As to the racist issue. I am against prejudice of any kind and I have pulled even some casual friends up on what I felt may be deemed just bordering on racist comments.

However, unless they were clearly racist and I have come across people who are,I am not going to hold one or even a few comments against them all through life and not be able to see the other good sides to them too.
If they persisted in inappropriate comments then I would then cut them off because I wouldn't want to be associated with them because of that.

I don't however see Ron as a racist,he made a silly comment and has been got at ever since,however his actions do not follow a racist path in my view.
People who are really racist,in the main, cannot hide it and they certainly afford no merits or hand recognition to black people,or indeed other races either.
Over his long and varied football career,Ron has not only selected black players for his teams,he has nurtured them too, suppporting them and opening the door to successful careers for them.
That is not the actions of a racist, when they have authority and power over others lives and livelihoods.

Some people however, don't climb down easily, there are times it has almost been like pulling someones teeth out, just to get them to admit they made a mistake or that they were sorry.
I think that could be a problem with Ron, he doesn't back down easily,that may well be a flaw to his character but does not in any way substantiate any racist allegations against him.

I don't see him winning CBB, he may be the first out even but I like him and hope he is in for a fair while.
I don't really consider it fair to brand him a racist though when in fact there have never been any official allegations of racist activity from or by him and although throwaway comments can be offensive,they in themself do not constitute someone is racist either.

To my knowledge,he has not said anything further from that incident that could be considered racist as a comment, so I see nothing from his 'actions' that even indicate he may even be,let alone is.

[chuff me dizzy]

I like Ron Atkinson, he is an absolute legend to one of my older Brothers as a football manager.
As to the racist issue. I am against prejudice of any kind and I have pulled even some casual friends up on what I felt may be deemed just bordering on racist comments.

However, unless they were clearly racist and I have come across people who are,I am not going to hold one or even a few comments against them all through life and not be able to see the other good sides to them too.
If they persisted in inappropriate comments then I would then cut them off because I wouldn't want to be associated with them because of that.

I don't however see Ron as a racist,he made a silly comment and has been got at ever since,however his actions do not follow a racist path in my view.
People who are really racist,in the main, cannot hide it and they certainly afford no merits or hand recognition to black people,or indeed other races either.
Over his long and varied football career,Ron has not only selected black players for his teams,he has nurtured them too, suppporting them and opening the door to successful careers for them.
That is not the actions of a racist, when they have authority and power over others lives and livelihoods.

Some people however, don't climb down easily, there are times it has almost been like pulling someones teeth out, just to get them to admit they made a mistake or that they were sorry.
I think that could be a problem with Ron, he doesn't back down easily,that may well be a flaw to his character but does not in any way substantiate any racist allegations against him.

I don't see him winning CBB, he may be the first out even but I like him and hope he is in for a fair while.
I don't really consider it fair to brand him a racist though when in fact there have never been any official allegations of racist activity from or by him and although throwaway comments can be offensive,they in themself do not constitute someone is racist either.

To my knowledge,he has not said anything further from that incident that could be considered racist as a comment, so I see nothing from his 'actions' that even indicate he may even be,let alone is.

I think he has a massive chance of winning,.hes a lovely man

[Ammi]

I like Ron Atkinson, he is an absolute legend to one of my older Brothers as a football manager.
As to the racist issue. I am against prejudice of any kind and I have pulled even some casual friends up on what I felt may be deemed just bordering on racist comments.

However, unless they were clearly racist and I have come across people who are,I am not going to hold one or even a few comments against them all through life and not be able to see the other good sides to them too.
If they persisted in inappropriate comments then I would then cut them off because I wouldn't want to be associated with them because of that.

I don't however see Ron as a racist,he made a silly comment and has been got at ever since,however his actions do not follow a racist path in my view.
People who are really racist,in the main, cannot hide it and they certainly afford no merits or hand recognition to black people,or indeed other races either.
Over his long and varied football career,Ron has not only selected black players for his teams,he has nurtured them too, suppporting them and opening the door to successful careers for them.
That is not the actions of a racist, when they have authority and power over others lives and livelihoods.

Some people however, don't climb down easily, there are times it has almost been like pulling someones teeth out, just to get them to admit they made a mistake or that they were sorry.
I think that could be a problem with Ron, he doesn't back down easily,that may well be a flaw to his character but does not in any way substantiate any racist allegations against him.

I don't see him winning CBB, he may be the first out even but I like him and hope he is in for a fair while.
I don't really consider it fair to brand him a racist though when in fact there have never been any official allegations of racist activity from or by him and although throwaway comments can be offensive,they in themself do not constitute someone is racist either.

To my knowledge,he has not said anything further from that incident that could be considered racist as a comment, so I see nothing from his 'actions' that even indicate he may even be,let alone is.

..that's a good post Joey..I do agree with a lot of it although I don't think what he said could be described as a silly comment at all, it was an absolute racist comment and not in another 'era' either..but I also believe that he has done many positive things for different races in football and that can't be ignored either, one racist comment doesn't define him because of everything positive he is or has been in his career....he hasn't to my knowledge either said anything similar to that again...I'm not a huge fan myself, but because he doesn't really stand for much I admire in a person..but I don't think he's a racist either...

[Drew.]

I like Ron Atkinson, he is an absolute legend to one of my older Brothers as a football manager.
As to the racist issue. I am against prejudice of any kind and I have pulled even some casual friends up on what I felt may be deemed just bordering on racist comments.

However, unless they were clearly racist and I have come across people who are,I am not going to hold one or even a few comments against them all through life and not be able to see the other good sides to them too.
If they persisted in inappropriate comments then I would then cut them off because I wouldn't want to be associated with them because of that.

I don't however see Ron as a racist,he made a silly comment and has been got at ever since,however his actions do not follow a racist path in my view.
People who are really racist,in the main, cannot hide it and they certainly afford no merits or hand recognition to black people,or indeed other races either.
Over his long and varied football career,Ron has not only selected black players for his teams,he has nurtured them too, suppporting them and opening the door to successful careers for them.
That is not the actions of a racist, when they have authority and power over others lives and livelihoods.

Some people however, don't climb down easily, there are times it has almost been like pulling someones teeth out, just to get them to admit they made a mistake or that they were sorry.
I think that could be a problem with Ron, he doesn't back down easily,that may well be a flaw to his character but does not in any way substantiate any racist allegations against him.

I don't see him winning CBB, he may be the first out even but I like him and hope he is in for a fair while.
I don't really consider it fair to brand him a racist though when in fact there have never been any official allegations of racist activity from or by him and although throwaway comments can be offensive,they in themself do not constitute someone is racist either.

To my knowledge,he has not said anything further from that incident that could be considered racist as a comment, so I see nothing from his 'actions' that even indicate he may even be,let alone is.

great post, completely agree

[Lord Of The Garden]

*

It's all about context. The N- word has become a very taboo word these days but it was not always the case years ago.

For example in the 'Dambusters' film there is a black dog called "N-". ! Sounds insane by today's standards but loads of people back then used to call their black dogs "N-", just as they would call a spotted dog "spotty". If it was a genuinely offensive word back then, then no one would use it to name their pet! Think about it. It would be like calling your cat 'wan*er*' now! It just wouldn't happen!

Back then, "N-" was simply a play on the word negro (meaning black), just as the word "spotty" was a play on the word "spotted"

N- didn't begin as a racist word but it became one over time.

Just like the word Gay used to only mean happy but then evolved to mean homosexual.
Listening to old songs, people sing of feeling 'happy and gay' and it sounds hilariously inappropriate by the standard of today's new meaning of the word gay. So if someone recorded a song called " I feel gay " in 1941, it would simply mean " I feel happy ". If they recorded it now in 2013 it would mean to everyone " I feel homosexual "

The N-word years ago didn't have a racist intent behind it, it was just a slang term for negro, just like brit is for british or aussie is for australian. Over time, the N- word came to be used in a negative way by negative people and so now it has become " a racist word " and so it is a word to be avoided.

Aussie and Brit have not become "racist words" but who knows in 30 years time they might be too !

Ron - being of the older generation - is used to the old way of saying N-, which was simply the equivalent of saying Brit for british.

Ron's mistake - i think - is in slipping up and not realising how racist and taboo the N- has become in this day and age. I don't think his use of the N- word came from hatred, but simply came from not keeping up with the times and how words evolve. Of course in a commentary job he should be more mindful of that.

But we should also be more mindful of Ron's generation and understand how different words had different meanings then to now. We should therefore expect the odd slip up from that generation and as long as there is no malicious intent in using it, best just to let it go. It's all about the evolution of words.

Same for swearing - did you know the C- word simply used to mean cut? This is where the name of the county Kent comes from. Literally a "cut in the land" which created the river thames. Kent, Cut and ******* - all from the same root years ago - but look at the difference now.

Maybe we should ban the word Kent. Maybe we should all never talk at all, just to play it safe.

[DanaC]

Don't think that's where Kent comes from. Has a different root I think, meaning 'coastal' iirc.

[CaudleHalbard]

As said earlier in this thread, to describe someone as "black" was considered a generation or two ago to be almost as bad as using the dreaded N word.

This may be because of the word that usually followed it, most commonly "bastard" or similar.

So the context in which a word is commonly used has a huge effect on its acceptability.

[Lewarse]

The guy is 74 ffs - Go speak to your grandparents about racial issues (assuming you are white) - see what they have to say about the matter. Judging people of that generation on what is deemed PC today is a difficult thing to do.

[CaudleHalbard]

Indeed. A 93 year old lady I know wouldnt dream of calling someone "black". She would think it extremely rude.

She is however quite happy to refer to "coloureds" and "darkies"! :D

In no way is she racist.

[DanaC]

I know what you're saying, but I think even if one were to poll a group of people exclusively over the age of 70 most of them wold know that the N word is no longer acceptable.

My Dad was 73 when he died in 2009. He was never what anybody could call PC. But he knew that the N word was unacceptable.

There seems to be an assumption that people set their vocabulary in stone somewhere around the age of 30 and take absolutely no account of the changing world they're in from that point on.

For someone to use the N word at any time in the last 20 years and not realise it was offensive would require them to have boarded up their eyes and ears.

[thesheriff443]

we have all said stupid things, if you say no, you are a liar!
a stupid comment does not make you the devil!

[erinp5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlLetRj12PQ

UlLetRj12PQ

[DanaC]

we have all said stupid things, if you say no, you are a liar!
a stupid comment does not make you the devil!

Of course we've all said stupid things. And no it doesn't make him the devil.

[Lord Of The Garden]

*

Same with words regarding disabilities.

As Alan Partridge pointed out now we have 'Scope' but not long ago it used to be called 'The Spastic Society'. Yet it can be regarded offensive now to use the word 'Spastic'.

I know someone who was sacked from a hotel when trying to explain to another staff member who to give a suitcase to. Their conversation went :

"Can you give this to the guy in the corner please?"
"Which guy?"
"The black guy"

He was sacked for describing someone as black.

Is black an offensive term? I thought with Black history month / MOBO awards etc it was an accepted term. Maybe some people take offence to it. If so, then what do we say?

Perhaps we need a governing body of acceptable language experts featuring someone from every single country/faith/gender/disability etc and they could put a leaflet through everyone's door once a week updating us on what is acceptable and unacceptable language?

If not then we are all at risk of one day being accidentally racist/sexist etc even though we used the exact language that was acceptable only last week.

Or we could all just learn to become less bothered by words, recognise we are all equal and temporary life forms that are born from the same star and laugh at everything as we roll along the river of life

Plus after millions of years of evolution, in the year 2013, it's safe to say that by now, everyone on the planet is mixed race so who gives a s*** !

[chuff me dizzy]

This country is now going overboard with shouting racism ,.and it will never accept racism works both ways

[williamwaggadagger]

Big ron is the least racist man ever.
He has done nothing in his 74 years that is racist action, he has supported black players for 30 years, he was THE FIRST british manager to actively recruit black players. None of these greta players like cyrille regis ever felt they had been mistreated or racially abused , insulted, nothing. ron was always a fair man and a fair manager.

This is 1 word he muttered under his breath once when he didn't even know he was on air.I've never used that word in my life, but who hasn't muttered some nonsense under his breath once in their lives...Black players like regis and carlton palmer have defended ron totally against any of these accusations.

He lost his career and never worked on football again 9 years ago, quitting tv work and all newspaper work, after being a fantastic pundit, commentator and player

I think whats happened to big ron is an absolute disgrace in a nation of phenomenal double standards

[Northern Monkey]

Big ron is the least racist man ever.
He has done nothing in his 74 years that is racist action, he has supported black players for 30 years, he was THE FIRST british manager to actively recruit black players. None of these greta players like cyrille regis ever felt they had been mistreated or racially abused , insulted, nothing. ron was always a fair man and a fair manager.

This is 1 word he muttered under his breath once when he didn't even know he was on air.I've never used that word in my life, but who hasn't muttered some nonsense under his breath once in their lives...Black players like regis and carlton palmer have defended ron totally against any of these accusations.

He lost his career and never worked on football again 9 years ago, quitting tv work and all newspaper work, after being a fantastic pundit, commentator and player

I think whats happened to big ron is an absolute disgrace in a nation of phenomenal double standardsWell said!!I agree!

[DanaC]

For him to use it unthinkingly, means it is in his lexicon. And yes, words change their meaning over time, and yes that word carried a different weight when he was growing up, but he didn't just transport himself across the decades, he lived the intervening years.

He was clearly a very forward thinking man in many ways when he was championing and actively recruiting black players at a time when they were excluded by the rest of the football teams/ That doesn't mean he is incapable of racism - though it offers some balance to the picture.

I do think he had to pay a high price. I don't think he deserves to be defined by that moment.

[chuff me dizzy]

For him to use it unthinkingly, means it is in his lexicon. And yes, words change their meaning over time, and yes that word carried a different weight when he was growing up, but he didn't just transport himself across the decades, he lived the intervening years.

He was clearly a very forward thinking man in many ways when he was championing and actively recruiting black players at a time when they were excluded by the rest of the football teams/ That doesn't mean he is incapable of racism - though it offers some balance to the picture.

I do think he had to pay a high price. I don't think he deserves to be defined by that moment.

Oh for Gods sake, get over it :bored::idc:

[Verbal]

As I was saying....










Just kidding :rolleyes:

[Lex]

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake! :thumbs:


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks. :thumbs:

Cheers.

[Lewarse]

I know what you're saying, but I think even if one were to poll a group of people exclusively over the age of 70 most of them wold know that the N word is no longer acceptable.

My Dad was 73 when he died in 2009. He was never what anybody could call PC. But he knew that the N word was unacceptable.

There seems to be an assumption that people set their vocabulary in stone somewhere around the age of 30 and take absolutely no account of the changing world they're in from that point on.

For someone to use the N word at any time in the last 20 years and not realise it was offensive would require them to have boarded up their eyes and ears.

I think Ron Atikinson knows the N word is unacceptable too, the guy used it in an off the cuff remark without thinking. It doesn't make it right but as others have already said, we all say s**t we don't necessarily mean and live to regret it.

Do you think your Dad didn't ever utter that word or any other racial remarks in his last 20 years of his life? Even though he knew it was unacceptable? Doesn't necessarily mean he hates black people, it was prevalent in that generation. As easy as you make it sound, one of the hardest things to do in life is change.

[DanaC]

On the contrary my dad said some horrible things about Pakistanis and Arabs. But then he was quite prejudiced against them (though he spftened on that score in later life). My point really was that even he knew not to use the N word.

As I said before, I don't think he should be defined by that moment. Totally unfair to define him by words spoken unthinkingly when his actions as a football manager were the polar opposite of those words.

All I am saying is that it is possible to hold racist and non racist views at the same time. And whilst I have many times said things I regret, I also consider that things said without thought reflect the language and concepts we are comfortable with.

I mentioned my dad because people keep bringing up his generation. I just don't think he is somehow representative of his generation. I think it says more about what language is (until very recently and probably still in a lot of areas)accepted in the footballing world than it does about his generation.


[eta] I have slightly shifted my opinion of him though, through this thread. I think more weight should be given to his actions during a time when acting in a non-racist way was something that required someone to take a very definite stand. I still don't think that automatically means he isn't or has never been racist. Doesn't mean he deserved to be pilloried in the way that he was mind you.

[williamwaggadagger]

ron went and made tv documentaries on this he travelled the world from Europe to Australia and America to meet different cultures and communities....ron has of course travelled the world umpteen times already
ive heard people use discriminatory words against the disabled against different cultures and ethnicities and religions and I do not believe 1 word undoes 74 years of great work. you must look at the body of work and the life as a whole and all the positive contributions made
anyway he toured the world , met endless people , witnessed various forms of racism, discrimination, he also met cultural and religious leaders
at one point after rapologising for the umpteenth time, he met the controversial hypocrite darius howe. ron said he was sorry and explained some of the good he had done in his life and how he wanted to try and understand what hed done wrong. darius proceeded to morally lecture him for ages. ron at the end said so is there no way I can ever earn forgiveness or redemption no matter what I do. No Mr Atkinson said darius howe, I am not a Christian

unbelievable

big ron has never stoked up anything, hes a football man, fantastic entertainment as a pundit, harmless and fun loving. in the end 74 years of actions is infinitely more important than 1 word

judge not too harshly or you will be judged the same way

[williamwaggadagger]

On the contrary my dad said some horrible things about Pakistanis and Arabs. But then he was quite prejudiced against them (though he spftened on that score in later life). My point really was that even he knew not to use the N word.

As I said before, I don't think he should be defined by that moment. Totally unfair to define him by words spoken unthinkingly when his actions as a football manager were the polar opposite of those words.

All I am saying is that it is possible to hold racist and non racist views at the same time. And whilst I have many times said things I regret, I also consider that things said without thought reflect the language and concepts we are comfortable with.

I mentioned my dad because people keep bringing up his generation. I just don't think he is somehow representative of his generation. I think it says more about what language is (until very recently and probably still in a lot of areas)accepted in the footballing world than it does about his generation.


[eta] I have slightly shifted my opinion of him though, through this thread. I think more weight should be given to his actions during a time when acting in a non-racist way was something that required someone to take a very definite stand. I still don't think that automatically means he isn't or has never been racist. Doesn't mean he deserved to be pilloried in the way that he was mind you.

This moral relativity is a joke

Our forefathers were forced by the aristocracy to sail across the globe fighting the Asians, the Africans and beyond. To build a bigger empire for the rich. Divide and conquer across the world was the mission statement for over 100 years. So wonder why their inter racial experiences were not too cordial? millions of young men butchered in battle, do you really think their main priority was which adjectives they used. As with most things, this evil was driven by the elite.

[Videostar]

ron went and made tv documentaries on this he travelled the world from Europe to Australia and America to meet different cultures and communities....ron has of course travelled the world umpteen times already
ive heard people use discriminatory words against the disabled against different cultures and ethnicities and religions and I do not believe 1 word undoes 74 years of great work. you must look at the body of work and the life as a whole and all the positive contributions made
anyway he toured the world , met endless people , witnessed various forms of racism, discrimination, he also met cultural and religious leaders
at one point after rapologising for the umpteenth time, he met the controversial hypocrite darius howe. ron said he was sorry and explained some of the good he had done in his life and how he wanted to try and understand what hed done wrong. darius proceeded to morally lecture him for ages. ron at the end said so is there no way I can ever earn forgiveness or redemption no matter what I do. No Mr Atkinson said darius howe, I am not a Christian

unbelievable

big ron has never stoked up anything, hes a football man, fantastic entertainment as a pundit, harmless and fun loving. in the end 74 years of actions is infinitely more important than 1 word

judge not too harshly or you will be judged the same way

Totally agree.

Ron has done so much to promote and help black players be accepted in the English game, after he was sacked from ITV and all the racism stuff blew up several black players that he managed all said as one that Ron is in no way a racist...those guys knows him much better than any of us...so their word is good enough for me.

[DanaC]

This moral relativity is a joke

Our forefathers were forced by the aristocracy to sail across the globe fighting the Asians, the Africans and beyond. To build a bigger empire for the rich. Divide and conquer across the world was the mission statement for over 100 years. So wonder why their inter racial experiences were not too cordial? millions of young men butchered in battle, do you really think their main priority was which adjectives they used. As with most things, this evil was driven by the elite.

Wtf has any of that got to do with Ron using the word n/igger in the 21st century?

And what moral relativism was there in my post?

[Ammi]

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake! :thumbs:


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks. :thumbs:

Cheers.

...Lex I always enjoy reading your posts... your views/opinions are always refreshing and very measured in all of the BB madness each year...this is another great post by you...I don't really know anything in depth about his career but I do know he was very successful because he was a very good manager...I've also been talking to a few members on the forum who have explained a lot of the positive things he's contributed to encouraging black players in the game...I agree with you that people do have the right to moral outrage at what he said because it was so unacceptable, but I do also understand how someone could say something completely out of character if they're feeling extreme frustration at something, which I'm sure he was at the time...anyway that outrage has been expressed, it was 10 years ago, he lost his career because of it so he's paid a high price and had lots of time to reflect on it himself...I don't think he deserves to be defined in any way by that one thing he did/said without also looking at all the positive things he did as well which actually don't just balance it out but seem to be very much more from what I can see...I would like to see him talk about it in the house only because it would be good for him to maybe 'shake it all off' finally..?....


..anyway, you've put it all so much better than me, as always a pleasure to read your post...

[joeysteele]

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake! :thumbs:


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks. :thumbs:

Cheers.

A really strong and good post Lex. Fascinating read and I agree with you. Good one.

[DanaC]

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake! :thumbs:


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks. :thumbs:

Cheers.

I actually agree with quite a lot of this. Early in the thread I said i considered him a racist based on his use of racist language. I''m not so sure now that I would. A lot of people have put forward good reason for thinking otherwise.

Most of my arguments on this thread are about what people consider to be possible or not possible: that someone did X means he can't be a racist - I disagree with this; or the age factor: I don't agree with a lot of what was said about this being a generational thing - I don't think that word would be considered acceptable by many people his age. language shifts, but that particular word has been considered pretty dodgy for quite a long time; and the fact that it was an 'off the cuff' remark: I think the language we use when we aren't thinking about what we're saying shows the kind of language we are comfortable with and accustomed to. When people say they didn't think the microphone was on, that tells me it is a word they wouldn't use in public, not that it is a word they wouldn't use.

I am willing to accept that having that word in your lexicon, and being part of a culture (football) in which racist terminology is commonplace doesn't make someone a 'racist'.

[boomoo]

he's everything that's crap about English men.

Obsessed with football to the point of it being a religion, wary of anything that isn't English and white, and a gobshite.

That is absolutely not true. Perhaps if you were interested in football you would be able to find out that Ron Atkinson was the first manager responsible for the introduction of black ( hate having to use that word when they are gorgeous mahogany) players into top teams. A statue to commemorate three of those players is to be built in Birmingham.
What he said has been deemed wrong and he has paid the price. If anyone called Ron a white bastard no one would turn a hair.
The term he used is in common speech among black people.

[sassysocks]

..I really hope it is raised, I would be very interested to hear what he has to say now..but he was a very good football manager and would choose the right players regardless of race, so I don't think his argument would necessarily indicate he wasn't racist, just good at his job....

Oh for heaven's sake - how long should someone be discriminated against for an ill-advised comment many years ago. Those without sin and all that.

[boomoo]

...Lex I always enjoy reading your posts... your views/opinions are always refreshing and very measured in all of the BB madness each year...this is another great post by you...I don't really know anything in depth about his career but I do know he was very successful because he was a very good manager...I've also been talking to a few members on the forum who have explained a lot of the positive things he's contributed to encouraging black players in the game...I agree with you that people do have the right to moral outrage at what he said because it was so unacceptable, but I do also understand how someone could say something completely out of character if they're feeling extreme frustration at something, which I'm sure he was at the time...anyway that outrage has been expressed, it was 10 years ago, he lost his career because of it so he's paid a high price and had lots of time to reflect on it himself...I don't think he deserves to be defined in any way by that one thing he did/said without also looking at all the positive things he did as well which actually don't just balance it out but seem to be very much more from what I can see...I would like to see him talk about it in the house only because it would be good for him to maybe 'shake it all off' finally..?....


..anyway, you've put it all so much better than me, as always a pleasure to read your post...

I agree with you and the post you replied to. But why does Ron have to live through all that again? When he was placed in wife swap with Tessa Sanderson she would not leave the subject alone even though he said over and over he did not want to discuss it. People drew the conclusion from that that he was a racist. If that was true he would not have agreed to the wife swap when he saw Tessa. He was called a racist when he obviously wasnt. His language was completely inappropriate.
When I was a child I had n***** brown shoes and n***** brown polish. At the time I thought that was a colour and only learnt many years later that it had something to do with people.
Carol Mc Givern knew exactly waht she was doing. A very nasty piece of work. I would rather have Ron at my back any day.

[sassysocks]

..I really hope it is raised, I would be very interested to hear what he has to say now..but he was a very good football manager and would choose the right players regardless of race, so I don't think his argument would necessarily indicate he wasn't racist, just good at his job....

Oh for heavens sake, how long should someone be persecuted for a poor choice of words many years ago. Those without sin and all that.

[LANDROVER]

I believe this racism sensitivity is is becoming farcical. The same thing applies to religion. I have friends who are black and behind closed doors we call each other all sorts of names and have a good laugh in doing so. Every other wrap song sung by black people refer to each other as n....rs, but its taboo to say this word if youre not of the same race.
Why can you refer to an Australian as an aussie but you cant refer to a Pakistani as a p..i.
Im british you can call me a brit. The worlds gone mad.

[boomoo]

One racist comment doesn't make you a complete bigot in my opinion....But I don't really know the full story tbh.

But you do know the full story.
You summed it up nicely one racist comment said in exasperation describing a footballer. That's it.

[sassysocks]

I believe this racism sensitivity is is becoming farcical. The same thing applies to religion. I have friends who are black and behind closed doors we call each other all sorts of names and have a good laugh in doing so. Every other wrap song sung by black people refer to each other as n....rs, but its taboo to say this word if youre not of the same race.
Why can you refer to an Australian as an aussie but you cant refer to a Pakistani as a p..i.
Im british you can call me a brit. The worlds gone mad.

So much so I find it all very manipulative.

[Ammi]

I agree with you and the post you replied to. But why does Ron have to live through all that again? When he was placed in wife swap with Tessa Sanderson she would not leave the subject alone even though he said over and over he did not want to discuss it. People drew the conclusion from that that he was a racist. If that was true he would not have agreed to the wife swap when he saw Tessa. He was called a racist when he obviously wasnt. His language was completely inappropriate.
When I was a child I had n***** brown shoes and n***** brown polish. At the time I thought that was a colour and only learnt many years later that it had something to do with people.
Carol Mc Givern knew exactly waht she was doing. A very nasty piece of work. I would rather have Ron at my back any day.

..he doesn't have to 'live through it again' but it is an opportunity for him to talk about it because he did come across as extremely arrogant in Wife Swap after the incident and lots of people including myself found it difficult to understand how someone of his age and supposed intelligence couldn't not realise why what he said was so offensive and yet at that time he seemed to have no regret at all..in the context of what he said it was a lot more than 'inappropriate'..that word had always been used in a 'superior' way, dating back to slavery...anyway as said before, I think he was angry and frustrated when he said it and it didn't denote any racism in him..

[BeloTheBelt]

Has anybody thought to dissect Ron's original comment to see what he was actually inferring ?
He was, I believe, suggesting that black people work harder than people with other skin colours and that this player (desailly) wasnt pulling his weight.
He simply let his guard down and used a word that, whilst ok to use many years ago, isnt acceptable to use anymore.
Arguably similar to the way you use language differently depending on what company you're in.eg I try not to swear in front of my kids, just as i tried not to in front of my parents but when i'm with my mates then i let the swear filter down. Sometimes however, theres a lapse in the filter and the odd word slips out in the wrong company.
Agree with earlier comments, Ron made a racist comment but is not a racist.

[Beso]

I was discussing this with my brother last night, funny thing was, or not so funny thing really, all my brother could add was the fact that desailly was lazy. Now that's racist.

[Jesus.]

The problem with that phrase he used, was that those adjectives have been used to make comments about black people, since white people owned them.

He just needed to throw in "thick", and then he had a full house on racist bingo. I'm pretty sure if you ever asked him now, he'd never use words like that again, but the way they slipped out show he was inherently racist.

[Kyle]

Looks like the comment got removed but it's nice to see the white heterosexual population of England are once again copping the blame for society's ills on this forum.

[Jesus.]

I was discussing this with my brother last night, funny thing was, or not so funny thing really, all my brother could add was the fact that desailly was lazy. Now that's racist.

Honours

Marseille

UEFA Champions League: 1992–1993

Milan

Serie A (2): 1993–94, 1995–96
UEFA Champions League: 1993–94
Supercoppa Italiana: 1994
UEFA Super Cup: 1994

Chelsea

UEFA Super Cup: 1998
FA Cup: 1999–2000
FA Charity Shield: 2000


International

France

FIFA World Cup: 1998
UEFA European Football Championship: 2000
FIFA Confederations Cup (2): 2001, 2003

Individual

Overall Team of the Decade – Premier League 10 Seasons Awards (1992/93 – 2001/02)
UEFA Euro 1996 Team of the Tournament
1998 FIFA World Cup Team of the Tournament
UEFA Euro 2000 Team of the Tournament
FIFA 100

As you can see, your brother is completely correct. What a lazy bastard. He played in central midfield for one of the greatest club teams of all time.

[amu]

Maybe AJ can interview him when he gets out.

[Ammi]

The problem with that phrase he used, was that those adjectives have been used to make comments about black people, since white people owned them.

He just needed to throw in "thick", and then he had a full house on racist bingo. I'm pretty sure if you ever asked him now, he'd never use words like that again, but the way they slipped out show he was inherently racist.

..whether it did or didn't indicate inherent racism it was so far as any of us know a 'one off' remark 10 years age and the 'price to pay' has been paid by him..I started the thread because I was genuinely interested in opinions and also didn't know an awful lot about him other than the controversy and what I've found really interesting is the younger member's views because on the whole they don't excuse what he did because of 'an era' and acknowledge how unacceptable and wrong it was but just balanced it up with some of his positives as well, which is also important to do to get a 'complete person'...I'm not that far removed from Ron's 'era' and am aware of terminology 'back in the day' and no one I knew ever used that term because it's an obvious term for a feeling of 'superiority' and always has been...I didn't move in the 'football circles' though but to me that's irrelevant because he wasn't a young impressionable person who may have overhead something and not known it's meaning when he said it..he was a very 'worldly' astute and intelligent man and of course should have known better..and a 'football environment' makes no difference otherwise what are we saying ..'it's not racism, it's just football fans/players etc, so it's ok..'..really no excuse at all...

..anyway, I don't think I'll post in the thread again because enough now...I myself don't believe he's a racist but I've enjoyed and been 'enlightened' by some very intelligent and reasoned views in here...

..EDIT: oh and by a certain member in private conversations about the subject..he knows who he is..a very wise person...

[kitten59]

Why did they even let this ignoramus on the show? Besides being not too bright, he's a crashing BORE.

[sassysocks]

Why did they even let this ignoramus on the show? Besides being not too bright, he's a crashing BORE.

No he isn't - he has far more to offer than the likes of Courtney.

[kitten59]

No he isn't - he has far more to offer than the likes of Courtney.

You must love comatose housemates.

[sassysocks]

I think Ron Atikinson knows the N word is unacceptable too, the guy used it in an off the cuff remark without thinking. It doesn't make it right but as others have already said, we all say s**t we don't necessarily mean and live to regret it.

Do you think your Dad didn't ever utter that word or any other racial remarks in his last 20 years of his life? Even though he knew it was unacceptable? Doesn't necessarily mean he hates black people, it was prevalent in that generation. As easy as you make it sound, one of the hardest things to do in life is change.

Excellent, thought inspiring post. Well said.

[sassysocks]

You must love comatose housemates.

No, but I would prefer even them to that boring, predictable individual who thinks she is a modern woman. She reminds me of one of those blow up dolls people can purchase online. Revolting woman.

[sassysocks]

Looks like the comment got removed but it's nice to see the white heterosexual population of England are once again copping the blame for society's ills on this forum.

As I said - manipulative.

[chuff me dizzy]

I believe this racism sensitivity is is becoming farcical. The same thing applies to religion. I have friends who are black and behind closed doors we call each other all sorts of names and have a good laugh in doing so. Every other wrap song sung by black people refer to each other as n....rs, but its taboo to say this word if youre not of the same race.
Why can you refer to an Australian as an aussie but you cant refer to a Pakistani as a p..i.
Im british you can call me a brit. The worlds gone mad.

Welcome to PC gone mad Britain

[Jesus.]

I believe this racism sensitivity is is becoming farcical. The same thing applies to religion. I have friends who are black and behind closed doors we call each other all sorts of names and have a good laugh in doing so. Every other wrap song sung by black people refer to each other as n....rs, but its taboo to say this word if youre not of the same race.
Why can you refer to an Australian as an aussie but you cant refer to a Pakistani as a p..i.
Im british you can call me a brit. The worlds gone mad.

White people have absolutely no business using that word. It's what we used when we were slave masters. If black people wish to use it, then that is their business, but we really have no right using it because of the history of oppression it is associated with.

There are lots of people that share your views. But for me, when you say you and your black friends call each other all kinds of names, and aren't you modern and past race, it doesn't really say that to me, it says rather than dealing with it, and being sensitive to the history we share, we're just going to pretend it didn't happen. Even recent history, people used to refer to black bastards, darkies, chalky on TV for a Saturday nights entertainment.

We don't get to say "sorry about all that slavery stuff, and then the decades of names and abuse we gave you after you fought for us in WWII, but you really need to get past it now, because we're going to start being nicer. You still will be persecuted by the police and stereotyped by employers, but hey, I don't call you the c**n who lives next door anymore, so you need to grow up"

Thankfully, these attitudes will die out eventually.

[Kyle]

White people have absolutely no business using that word. It's what we used when we were slave masters. If black people wish to use it, then that is their business, but we really have no right using it because of the history of oppression it is associated with.

There are lots of people that share your views. But for me, when you say you and your black friends call each other all kinds of names, and aren't you modern and past race, it doesn't really say that to me, it says rather than dealing with it, and being sensitive to the history we share, we're just going to pretend it didn't happen. Even recent history, people used to refer to black bastards, darkies, chalky on TV for a Saturday nights entertainment.

We don't get to say "sorry about all that slavery stuff, and then the decades of names and abuse we gave you after you fought for us in WWII, but you really need to get past it now, because we're going to start being nicer. You still will be persecuted by the police and stereotyped by employers, but hey, I don't call you the c**n who lives next door anymore, so you need to grow up"

Thankfully, these attitudes will die out eventually.


No you can't have one rule for one and one for another. If white people get pulled up for the N word (rightly so in my opinion) black people should get pulled up too all you end up doing is creating resentment within the white populace.

[CaudleHalbard]

No you can't have one rule for one and one for another. If white people get pulled up for the N word (rightly so in my opinion) black people should get pulled up too all you end up doing is creating resentment within the white populace.

Quite agree. Applying different standards according to a person's race is, in itself, racism.

[Kyle]

The same thing happens with sectarianism in sport too.

Calling somebody a yid is considered offensive (ok fair enough) but Tottenham Hotspurs who are a club with strong Jewish roots sing 'yid army' without reprisal.

Calling somebody a Fenian is considered offensive in Scotland (again fair enough) but Celtic who have a strong link with Irish Republicanism and Catholicism sing 'Fenian army' after somebody's name.

[smudgie]

I think it is terrible that rappers use the word.
Young impressionable kids buy them, including white ones who end up with a clip around the ear for repeating it.

[Jesus.]

No you can't have one rule for one and one for another. If white people get pulled up for the N word (rightly so in my opinion) black people should get pulled up too all you end up doing is creating resentment within the white populace.

Then you really don't understand the history behind the word. Why should white people give a s**t if black people use it? It's like we can't get past that privileged status, even now.

Well they can do it, so why can't we?

Black people have the right to claim that word, because of the way it was used against them for centuries. We don't.

It really is simple.

[Jesus.]

Quite agree. Applying different standards according to a person's race is, in itself, racism.

This spectacularly misses the point of that word. What's racist about it?

[chuff me dizzy]

No you can't have one rule for one and one for another. If white people get pulled up for the N word (rightly so in my opinion) black people should get pulled up too all you end up doing is creating resentment within the white populace.

Agree 100% ...and there needs to be more spotlight on black on white racism too

[Kyle]

Then you really don't understand the history behind the word. Why should white people give a s**t if black people use it? It's like we can't get past that privileged status, even now.

Well they can do it, so why can't we?

Black people have the right to claim that word, because of the way it was used against them for centuries. We don't.

It really is simple.

Nah not buying that.


I have enslaved nobody, the black people who go around saying it are not slaves any longer. I will not stand to suffer for misdemeanours of the past.


Call me privileged and self entitled all you want or deride my understanding of colonial history it doesn't bother me.

[Jesus.]

Nah not buying that.


I have enslaved nobody, the black people who go around saying it are not slaves any longer. I will not stand to suffer for misdemeanours of the past.


Call me privileged and self entitled all you want or deride my understanding of colonial history it doesn't bother me.

Ignorance is bliss.

[DanaC]

White people have absolutely no business using that word. It's what we used when we were slave masters. If black people wish to use it, then that is their business, but we really have no right using it because of the history of oppression it is associated with.

There are lots of people that share your views. But for me, when you say you and your black friends call each other all kinds of names, and aren't you modern and past race, it doesn't really say that to me, it says rather than dealing with it, and being sensitive to the history we share, we're just going to pretend it didn't happen. Even recent history, people used to refer to black bastards, darkies, chalky on TV for a Saturday nights entertainment.

We don't get to say "sorry about all that slavery stuff, and then the decades of names and abuse we gave you after you fought for us in WWII, but you really need to get past it now, because we're going to start being nicer. You still will be persecuted by the police and stereotyped by employers, but hey, I don't call you the c**n who lives next door anymore, so you need to grow up"

Thankfully, these attitudes will die out eventually.

Well said.

Whatever Ron's actual views on race, the term he used was culturally loaded.

Maybe in the culture he was a part of, that kind of term was commonplace. Maybe compared to many in his world he was not racist. Maybe in the context of such a world he was actively anti-racist (through his actions). But he participated in creating a culture with racism embedded in it, even as he participated in breaking down race barriers in that world.

In many workplaces it is still pretty common for minorities to be talked about in such a way. And it is just 'banter'. But that banter has a dark underbelly. Our words do not leave our mouth into an unmade world. They carry cultural legacies.

[Kyle]

Ignorance is bliss.

Oh look who is having another swipe. I'm ignorant too now?

Thanks god we have a pseudo intellectual like you here to educate us poor buffoons on how we are oppressing people.

I think I might become a Catholic, they are good at making people feel guilty for something that happened in the past.

[camertone]

he is racist.

[sassysocks]

Oh look who is having another swipe. I'm ignorant too now?

Thanks god we have a pseudo intellectual like you here to educate us poor buffoons on how we are oppressing people.

I think I might become a Catholic, they are good at making people feel guilty for something that happened in the past.

There are many types of oppression and attempting to hold future generations to account for the past is oppression.

Meanwhile many of those angered by remarks they consider racist continue to go on their merry way making sexist remarks at will. I have no time for such hypocrites.

[Jesus.]

Oh look who is having another swipe. I'm ignorant too now?

Thanks god we have a pseudo intellectual like you here to educate us poor buffoons on how we are oppressing people.

I think I might become a Catholic, they are good at making people feel guilty for something that happened in the past.

Ignorance isn't really having a swipe. I'm ignorant of lots of things. It just means a lack of knowledge.

[Kyle]

Ignorance isn't really having a swipe. I'm ignorant of lots of things. It just means a lack of knowledge.

There are very few people who have in depth knowledge of the extent of the slave trade and how it affected each race.

The majority of us just apply what is happening around us but you can't write us off as unworthy of an opinion because you deem us ignorant.


Slavery doesn't just extend to whites on black though they cant have a monopoly on that debacle. The Barbary Pirates of North Africa used to stalk the Mediterranean for slaves and the Egyptians made extensive use of forced labour. Some South American cultures also took war prisoners and used them as slaves too..

[sassysocks]

There are very few people who have in depth knowledge of the extent of the slave trade and how it affected each race.

The majority of us just apply what is happening around us but you can't write us off as unworthy of an opinion because you deem us ignorant.


Slavery doesn't just extend to whites on black though they cant have a monopoly on that debacle. The Barbary Pirates of North Africa used to stalk the Mediterranean for slaves and the Egyptians made extensive use of forced labour. Some South American cultures also took war prisoners and used them as slaves too..

Well said. I believe alleged racism is often used as a stick to beats the white with and smacks of its own brand of bigotry and racism.

[Roy Mars III]

In 50 years the 'n word' (with an A) will not carry the same weight. It will not mean what it used to mean, and will instead mean 'friend/homie/etc. You can already see it lessening due to music and pop culture. You go to Hip Hop shows (which usually have around a 80% white audience) and you hear everyone throwing it around

[DanaC]

There are very few people who have in depth knowledge of the extent of the slave trade and how it affected each race.

The majority of us just apply what is happening around us but you can't write us off as unworthy of an opinion because you deem us ignorant.


Slavery doesn't just extend to whites on black though they cant have a monopoly on that debacle. The Barbary Pirates of North Africa used to stalk the Mediterranean for slaves and the Egyptians made extensive use of forced labour. Some South American cultures also took war prisoners and used them as slaves too..

I have a fairly good knowledge of the 17th and 18th century century slave trade. I also have a fairly good knowledge of 17th -19th century colonialism.

Slavery has been a part of the human story for a long time. It hasn't just been something that white Europeans did to black Africans. But: the mass enslavement that occurred during the 17th to early 19th century was different to what went on at other times and in the other places you mention.

Simply put: the notion of a 'slave race' is fairly uncommon in history. There are examples of it in the ancient world, but most of the slave owning cultures did not own slaves according to their race, but according to their social status. (there are one or two examples of it inthe modern world as well: specifically the Tuareg and the slave race they consider their property) In the slave owning culture of America's ante-bellum South, laws were in place which effectively categorised black Africans as inherently 'slave'. A black person could be a freed slave, of course...though during some periods laws were passed to prevent the freeing of slaves, because it was feared that a) those freed slaves might act violently towards their former masters and b) it would make it difficult to identify a run away slave.

This did not happen in the distant past. There are people now living in America whose great grandparents were born into slavery. This a very recent cultural legacy.

Even more recently, in living memory, there were laws in America segregating black and white lives and rights. The Jim Crow laws were founded on assumptions and fears born of the earlier slave owning culture.

The holocaust in Germany still carries a deep and abiding legacy in western culture. Yet that was further back in our collective past than the Jim Crow laws that denied black people basic equality in law.

The colonial legacy of India, likewise is still in living memory. My dad was born to the Raj. He was raised with Indian servants (who my grandfather used to beat when they disobeyed him).

We are all affected by the culture our parents were raised in, and they were affected by the culture their parents were raised in. I grew up with the stories my parents and grandparents told of their worlds. As did you, and as did the children and grandchildren of people for whom the colour of their skin was the ultimate marker on which they were judged.

[Verbal]

Schooled

[Daffodil]

If anyone uses the N word conversationally it does reflect racism. Most of us have been aware of the word all our lives but we are also aware of its deep and harmful connotations so we choose to store it away in the 'words I will not use' cupboard in our brain.
I am not saying that Ron is necessarily a bad man. It is probably the way he was brought up.

[the truth]

I think Ron Atikinson knows the N word is unacceptable too, the guy used it in an off the cuff remark without thinking. It doesn't make it right but as others have already said, we all say s**t we don't necessarily mean and live to regret it.

Do you think your Dad didn't ever utter that word or any other racial remarks in his last 20 years of his life? Even though he knew it was unacceptable? Doesn't necessarily mean he hates black people, it was prevalent in that generation. As easy as you make it sound, one of the hardest things to do in life is change.

why is it always the dads? My dad has never said a racist word in his life, nor has by grand dad, my mother on the other hand, oh brother

[the truth]

Ignorance is bliss.

yet it is but who is ignorant?

[reece(:]

He was racist outside of the house.. who cares, he could be a changed man now.
He's a bore inside the house and that's the real problem.

[anne666]

Racism and Homophobia are endemic in football. Cave men rule

[Tozzie]

..I understand what you're saying Miranda, there was a lot of racist comedians etc 'back in the day'..the 'day' that was meant to be such a greater day than today as well and a lot of it was ignorance, people not being educated etc..but isn't that what racism is though...ignorance..?....

I remember a comedian called Charlie Williams, he was a black man with a thick yorkshire accent, he used to make jokes at his own expense, I remember he used to threaten that if you didn't shut up he'd move next door to you! and in his day that was seen as very funny. Nowadays his jokes wouldn't be tolerated and rightly so as he was making out that it was a bad thing to be black. I wonder how other black people used to see him back then? I also remember really racial TV shows called Love Thy Neighbour, and Till Death Us Do Part. I'm quite ashamed to say I used to find those shows really funny and its only years down the line that I realise how ignorant I was.

[Kyle]

Racism and Homophobia are endemic in football. Cave men rule

Get off your soapbox football has done a hell of a lot to combat racism almost now to the degree of paranoi in fact.


Homophobia could still do with a bit of working on I'll concede to that.

[Kyle]

I remember a comedian called Charlie Williams, he was a black man with a thick yorkshire accent, he used to make jokes at his own expense, I remember he used to threaten that if you didn't shut up he'd move next door to you! and in his day that was seen as very funny. Nowadays his jokes wouldn't be tolerated and rightly so as he was making out that it was a bad thing to be black. I wonder how other black people used to see him back then? I also remember really racial TV shows called Love Thy Neighbour, and Till Death Us Do Part. I'm quite ashamed to say I used to find those shows really funny and its only years down the line that I realise how ignorant I was.

My mum showed me a comedy they had back in the day called 'till death do us part' man that was hilarious. It was good too because it made the racist guy out be a right plonker I think that sort of programme would be a good way to expose racism.

[Lex]

I remember a comedian called Charlie Williams, he was a black man with a thick yorkshire accent, he used to make jokes at his own expense, I remember he used to threaten that if you didn't shut up he'd move next door to you! and in his day that was seen as very funny. Nowadays his jokes wouldn't be tolerated and rightly so as he was making out that it was a bad thing to be black. I wonder how other black people used to see him back then? I also remember really racial TV shows called Love Thy Neighbour, and Till Death Us Do Part. I'm quite ashamed to say I used to find those shows really funny and its only years down the line that I realise how ignorant I was.

Funny you should mention 'Love Thy Neighbour' Tozzie!....as I only found out not long ago, that my all-time favourite BB contestant Derek Laud was cast to star in a channel 4 re-make of the programme about 5 years ago!...I'm not sure what happened to it?...if it was axed, or just never shown,...but I certainly knew nothing about it until I happened across it the other week!...but I found a short clip of it on youtube.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7oyBbmyI68


the production quality [as well as Derek's acting] is pretty naff, as you can tell...so I wonder if this bit was filmed and supposed to convince chan 4 bosses to back it?...[and of course probably failed!]

btw Tozzie, I have heard Rudolph Walker speak with pride about Love Thy Neighbour several times!...he boasts that it was the first time on British television that a Black man was equal to a white man!...and who are we to argue with that?

....oh!..and note that Derek and the lady playing his wife were referring to themselves as "Black People!"...I mention this because there are people on this thread [can't remember who now?] that says that it is disrespectful for us to refer to 'black people' as black!...which I found rather confusing! ...but thankfully...you making me look at this clip of Derek again... has cleared it up for me! :thumbs:

Cheers.

BTW...I come from a couple of miles away from where Charlie Williams grew up, and we are about the same age...but can't say that I knew him before he became a famous footballer/ then comedian....But I did meet him several times in passing later on in life...he was a smashing cheerful bloke, just like he was on the telly!...and though I couldn't say that I knew him too well...I think that you can safely assume that Charlie was proud to be black, and couldn't give a crap what anyone else thought about him, and his act!..and would have hoped that you had fond memories of him :thumbs:

[RichardG]

Big Ron at it again in tonights highlights episode :bored:

[DanaC]

My mum showed me a comedy they had back in the day called 'till death do us part' man that was hilarious. It was good too because it made the racist guy out be a right plonker I think that sort of programme would be a good way to expose racism.

It was brilliant. But, unfortunately Alf Garnett ended up being somewhat adopted by the fascist stripe, who were laughing at his jokes rather than him. Much to the annoyance of the actor. Same thing happened with Enfield's Loadsa Money character, I believe.

[eta] I think more people got were laughing affectionately at him though than were agreeing with him :p

[Kyle]

It was brilliant. But, unfortunately Alf Garnett ended up being somewhat adopted by the fascist stripe, who were laughing at his jokes rather than him. Much to the annoyance of the actor. Same thing happened with Enfield's Loadsa Money character, I believe.

Just makes them look stupid then, it was quite clearly done to show racists as a bit backward and for them to adopt him is quite ironic. :dance:

[DanaC]

Well...that's British fascists for ya....full of irony.

[Tozzie]

Funny you should mention 'Love Thy Neighbour' Tozzie!....as I only found out not long ago, that my all-time favourite BB contestant Derek Laud was cast to star in a channel 4 re-make of the programme about 5 years ago!...I'm not sure what happened to it?...if it was axed, or just never shown,...but I certainly knew nothing about it until I happened across it the other week!...but I found a short clip of it on youtube.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7oyBbmyI68


the production quality [as well as Derek's acting] is pretty naff, as you can tell...so I wonder if this bit was filmed and supposed to convince chan 4 bosses to back it?...[and of course probably failed!]

btw Tozzie, I have heard Rudolph Walker speak with pride about Love Thy Neighbour several times!...he boasts that it was the first time on British television that a Black man was equal to a white man!...and who are we to argue with that?

....oh!..and note that Derek and the lady playing his wife were referring to themselves as "Black People!"...I mention this because there are people on this thread [can't remember who now?] that says that it is disrespectful for us to refer to 'black people' as black!...which I found rather confusing! ...but thankfully...you making me look at this clip of Derek again... has cleared it up for me! :thumbs:

Cheers.

BTW...I come from a couple of miles away from where Charlie Williams grew up, and we are about the same age...but can't say that I knew him before he became a famous footballer/ then comedian....But I did meet him several times in passing later on in life...he was a smashing cheerful bloke, just like he was on the telly!...and though I couldn't say that I knew him too well...I think that you can safely assume that Charlie was proud to be black, and couldn't give a crap what anyone else thought about him, and his act!..and would have hoped that you had fond memories of him :thumbs:

Oh yes, Charlie was a really happy Chappie, I do have fond memories of him. He had a fabulous smile too. My dad is a pianist and he told me Charlie came to our house on a few occasions. I don't remember how come he came or even him being there as I was too small but my dad tells me Charlie was a really nice man. I'm going to ask my dad how Charlie came to be coming to our house!

[MrWong]

So we've got the comment about the footy player.

The comment about Chinese women being the ugliest women in the world.

And now offensively stereotyping muslims as bombers.

[CaudleHalbard]

Ron's certainly covering all the minorities, isn't he! :eek::D

[smudgie]

Silly man.

[Kyle]

Well...that's British fascists for ya....full of irony.

I'm sure we could extend that to European neo nazi groups too. Especially those in countries that were occupied once upon a time by a totalitarian regime not so long ago.

[DanaC]

I'm sure we could extend that to European neo nazi groups too. Especially those in countries that were occupied once upon a time by a totalitarian regime not so long ago.

*nods* don't expect logic from them :p

[DanaC]

So we've got the comment about the footy player.

The comment about Chinese women being the ugliest women in the world.

And now offensively stereotyping muslims as bombers.

He's going for the full flush.....

[Kyle]

He's going for the full flush.....

The Chinese comment was no doubt in bad taste but just to play devils advocate here I could use a little help on something.

I don't find Chinese women sexually attractive (in general). I also am not attracted to black females just mainly Caucasian females.

Does that make me a racist?

[brucie]

why is he known as 'big' ron..when he is in fact a small minded, backward caveman from the midlands who thinks his toilet racist humour is funny...football is full of this scum...e.g john terry.

[brucie]

The Chinese comment was no doubt in bad taste but just to play devils advocate here I could use a little help on something.

I don't find Chinese women sexually attractive (in general). I also am not attracted to black females just mainly Caucasian females.

Does that make me a racist?

chinese women probably wouldn't look at you mate..so don't get on your high horse about liking particular race of females..

[Kyle]

chinese women probably wouldn't look at you mate..so don't get on your high horse about liking particular race of females..

Yes because I think that highly of myself :crazy: I was asking a genuine question fix that attitude of yours.