In his defence [Convo with Luisa about gays]

[qwerty42]

He should be allowed to give his opinion, no hate there at all.

[chuff me dizzy]

I hope this isn't about me, the last time I spoke with Jack was saying how we might have a series where we agree which would be nice after all the times we've disagreed and argued over housemates in the past, because you said you liked Ollie :laugh:

Lucas dont insult my intelligence, I can read ,people really ought to read your and Jacks wall (and others you work in a pack with ) you are not the forums sweethearts you make out you are

[chuff me dizzy]

He should be allowed to give his opinion, no hate there at all.

EXACTLY

[erinp5]

Celebrity Big Brother 2014 bosses have warned Evander Holyfield after the boxer told Luisa Zissman he suggested homosexuality can be cured, and compared it to being ‘handicapped’.

The pair had spent almost all their time in the house together thanks to the series launch twist, which saw the housemates being paired off and handcuffed together until further notice.

However, former Apprentice contestant Luisa became uncomfortable with Evander last night when she asked him whether there are any gay people in boxing, leading the heavyweight champion to reveal his opinions on same-sex relationships.

After Evander said he thinks they “ain’t normal”, Luisa attempted to end the conversation – which had not come to light until it was aired on Channel 5 this evening – but he proceeded to imply that homosexuality could be ‘fixed’.

The transcript of their chat, as aired in the latest highlights show, is as follows:


Luisa: Is there any gay boxers?

Evander: Yeah, I’m sure there is.

Luisa: Is it public knowledge?

Evander: Ain’t no-one came out and said they were.

Luisa: I think it’s really bad that no-one stands up and says it in the sporting industries. I think it’s good to be open about that because it’s normal.

Evander: What would be good about it? That ain’t normal.

Luisa: We shouldn’t have this conversation. No, let’s not have this conversation, it won’t be good.

Evander: The bible let’s you know, that’s wrong, that’s right.

Luisa: That’s just the way some people are.

Evander: No, it don’t make no difference. If you were born and your leg were turned this way, what do you do, you go to the doctor and get it fixed back right.

Luisa: It’s not about being fixed, it’s about… that’s just the way that you are.

Evander: No no no no no, you mean to tell me…

Luisa: I really don’t want to have this conversation.

Evander: I’m not mad, I’m just saying…

Luisa: You don’t understand, I don’t think it’s an appropriate conversation to have in this house, honestly.

Evander: All I’m trying to tell you, you know how handicapped people are born, you can’t say because they were born that way…

Luisa: You can’t compare, of course you can’t compare someone that’s gay to someone that’s handicapped, it’s not a choice.

Evander: Yes it is a choice, come on, that ain’t the way nobody is made.

Luisa: I’m tired. I don’t think people have a choice in their sexuality, or they would be unhappy.

Today, Big Brother called Evander to the Diary Room to caution him about offensive language, but stopped short of giving him an formal reprimand.

“Before you entered the Big Brother house, the rules regarding unacceptable language and behaviour were explained to you. Last night, in a conversation with Luisa, you expressed the view that being gay was not normal and that it could be fixed,” explained Big Brother.

“While Big Brother understands these are the views you hold, they aren’t the views that are held by a large section of society and expressing these views will be extremely offensive to many people. Do you understand why?”

“Yeah I understand why, I forgot about the thing,” Evander answered. “I was just telling her my opinion, but it’s not like I was gonna mention it to anybody else, that was just our conversation.”

“Big Brother does not tolerate the use of offensive language and must therefore warn you to consider very carefully the effect expressing such views may have and the harm and offence you may cause by repeating these views inside the house,” the all-seeing eye continued. “Do you understand, Evander?”

“Okay then,” said Evander. “Yes I do.”


Read more: http://www.bbspy.co.uk/cbb13/news/0105/evander-holyfield-warned-gay-homosexuality-can-be-cured-handicapped-celebrity-big-brother-2014#ixzz2pZPB4icY

[Amy Jade]

No he didnt ,hes very religious and 100% right when he said "In the Bible its classed as wrong " this is true ,Luissa asked him a question ,he answered ,What wrong in that baffles me
My Nan is very religious too, people call her Dot because of how devout she is but she's not narrow minded enough to believe everything written millions of years ago is relevant now and she adores my cousin whos gay, she treats him exactly the same as the rest of us.

He's entitled to his opinion sure but I'm entitled to think it's a horrible opinion he should be ashamed of having.

[M X]

EXACTLY

no shouting :joker:

[Jack_]

pmsl the last thing I'm considered on here is a 'forum sweetheart'

[the truth]

Well I was not happy wth what he said or the way he portrayed his view. I found the response from him unacceptable on the issue.

I said earlier the BB house is not a private house where people have private conversations, he said on public TV he thought being gay was wrong and went on to compoare it with being handicapped thereby indicating those who are gay could do something about it to maybe 'cure' it.

It is opinions like that reinforce the old discriminatory views and attitudes towards gay communities
That is where he was wrong and way out of order, he is entitled to his view, even if it is totally wrong, but keep that view to himself and not spout out his rubbish on a National TV programme.

When asked the question by Luisa, (knowing his own views on the subject), he is a man of some age he should have said that is not a discussion I want to have and would prefer not to answer, that was the simple way out.
He was not however, having a private conversation with Luisa because there is no such thing as private conversations in the BB house whatsoever.

so ban all conversation? outlaw all varying opinions on everything? absurd ...typical radical liberalist waffle
the only way things move forward is through open communication and education
in this specific case CBB was sly and should either have shown it and not warned him or not shown it at all

[Seanbon]

possibly the stupidest thing every written by an alleged human being

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

[Alf]

can you please say something else apart from shut your pie hole it's annoying as fk
Shut your cake hole

[Kazanne]

Celebrity Big Brother 2014 bosses have warned Evander Holyfield after the boxer told Luisa Zissman he suggested homosexuality can be cured, and compared it to being ‘handicapped’.

The pair had spent almost all their time in the house together thanks to the series launch twist, which saw the housemates being paired off and handcuffed together until further notice.

However, former Apprentice contestant Luisa became uncomfortable with Evander last night when she asked him whether there are any gay people in boxing, leading the heavyweight champion to reveal his opinions on same-sex relationships.

After Evander said he thinks they “ain’t normal”, Luisa attempted to end the conversation – which had not come to light until it was aired on Channel 5 this evening – but he proceeded to imply that homosexuality could be ‘fixed’.

The transcript of their chat, as aired in the latest highlights show, is as follows:


Luisa: Is there any gay boxers?

Evander: Yeah, I’m sure there is.

Luisa: Is it public knowledge?

Evander: Ain’t no-one came out and said they were.

Luisa: I think it’s really bad that no-one stands up and says it in the sporting industries. I think it’s good to be open about that because it’s normal.

Evander: What would be good about it? That ain’t normal.

Luisa: We shouldn’t have this conversation. No, let’s not have this conversation, it won’t be good.

Evander: The bible let’s you know, that’s wrong, that’s right.

Luisa: That’s just the way some people are.

Evander: No, it don’t make no difference. If you were born and your leg were turned this way, what do you do, you go to the doctor and get it fixed back right.

Luisa: It’s not about being fixed, it’s about… that’s just the way that you are.

Evander: No no no no no, you mean to tell me…

Luisa: I really don’t want to have this conversation.

Evander: I’m not mad, I’m just saying…

Luisa: You don’t understand, I don’t think it’s an appropriate conversation to have in this house, honestly.

Evander: All I’m trying to tell you, you know how handicapped people are born, you can’t say because they were born that way…

Luisa: You can’t compare, of course you can’t compare someone that’s gay to someone that’s handicapped, it’s not a choice.

Evander: Yes it is a choice, come on, that ain’t the way nobody is made.

Luisa: I’m tired. I don’t think people have a choice in their sexuality, or they would be unhappy.

Today, Big Brother called Evander to the Diary Room to caution him about offensive language, but stopped short of giving him an formal reprimand.

“Before you entered the Big Brother house, the rules regarding unacceptable language and behaviour were explained to you. Last night, in a conversation with Luisa, you expressed the view that being gay was not normal and that it could be fixed,” explained Big Brother.

“While Big Brother understands these are the views you hold, they aren’t the views that are held by a large section of society and expressing these views will be extremely offensive to many people. Do you understand why?”

“Yeah I understand why, I forgot about the thing,” Evander answered. “I was just telling her my opinion, but it’s not like I was gonna mention it to anybody else, that was just our conversation.”

“Big Brother does not tolerate the use of offensive language and must therefore warn you to consider very carefully the effect expressing such views may have and the harm and offence you may cause by repeating these views inside the house,” the all-seeing eye continued. “Do you understand, Evander?”

“Okay then,” said Evander. “Yes I do.”


Read more: http://www.bbspy.co.uk/cbb13/news/0105/evander-holyfield-warned-gay-homosexuality-can-be-cured-handicapped-celebrity-big-brother-2014#ixzz2pZPB4icY

Thanks for that erin,makes it easier to follow

[chuff me dizzy]

in all honesty its extremely sad that a black American boxing champion can be so narrow minded, to the fact that gay people don't have a choice when it comes to sexuality in the same way a person does not get to choose the color of their skin.

What this got to do with the colour of his skin or his profession ?

[Benjamin]

Actually thinking about it Michael, you sit their and tell me I actively support homophobia. What do you actively go out and do to help the cause? This isnt a rude question, Id like to know if you actually do anything for it.

[Black Dagger]

pmsl the last thing I'm considered on here is a 'forum sweetheart'

You're an 'orrible *******.

But yeah I'm no sweetheart and I wasn't trying to insult your intelligence, I don't have a problem with you anymore Chuff, but you can say what you feel, I know you're opinionated, as am I!

Anyway back on topic, is there a topic anymore idek. Yeah Evander can say what he feels, but I don't agree with him!

[the truth]

luissa began the whole conversation and stressed her opinion homosexuality is normal
evander was in effect asked his opinion and he gave it. then he was punished simpky for giving his own opinion, even though it was clearly not intended to offend he was put on the spot. would you all prefer he pretended to agreewith luissa? or that he said nothing? hed have been hammered then for being boring

[joeysteele]

so ban all conversation? outlaw all varying opinions on everything? absurd ...typical radical liberalist waffle
the only way things move forward is through open communication and education
in this specific case CBB was sly and should either have shown it and not warned him or not shown it at all

In no way am I saying that and you know fine well I am not, this thread is asking for opinions on what he said and what we saw for ourselves as to what he said and the way he said it.
I have given mine and stated he irritated me for the resons I have set out in at least 3 posts now.

It was said on here that he was in a private conversation with Luisa, I stress again, there are no such things as private conversations in the BB house.
I still think he was wrong and out of order and duly warranted the talk/warning that then ensued.

[Tom4784]

I think the issues of race and sexuality are very similar and comparable, you don't choose the colour of your skin and you can't choose your sexuality, both are just simply apart of who you are.

[thesheriff443]

What this got to do with the colour of his skin or his profession ?

coming from a country that had black people as slaves, he is a hypocrite. his opinions on gay people is no better than the white people who believed black people to be an inferior race.

[joeysteele]

I think the issues of race and sexuality are very similar and comparable, you don't choose the colour of your skin and you can't choose your sexuality, both are just simply apart of who you are.

Absolutely right.

[Chuck]

in all honesty its extremely sad that a black American boxing champion can be so narrow minded, to the fact that gay people don't have a choice when it comes to sexuality in the same way a person does not get to choose the color of their skin.

It's not important if black/gay people were born that way, if they had chosen to be that they should still be respected and treated the same way.

[chuff me dizzy]

You're an 'orrible *******.

But yeah I'm no sweetheart and I wasn't trying to insult your intelligence, I don't have a problem with you anymore Chuff, but you can say what you feel, I know you're opinionated, as am I!

Anyway back on topic, is there a topic anymore idek. Yeah Evander can say what he feels, but I don't agree with him!

That is YOUR choice ,same as its MY choice to think no one has a right to tell people what they can or cannot say ,and even worse than that what they THINK,people who say "You have to think like me" are arrogant getts

[M X]

Actually thinking about it Michael, you sit their and tell me I actively support homophobia. What do you actively go out and do to help the cause? This isnt a rude question, Id like to know if you actually do anything for it.

Not that it's any of your business, but I'm actually part of a peer support group in which we get allocated somebody who is struggling in their lives and we meet up with them once a week just to act as a friend to them, and the girl I've been meeting with for 6 months now, Yasmin, was bullied out of school after she was outed as bisexual by her best friend.

And I've also been part of The Human Rights Group within my high school which has provided support for people who are struggling with any type of discrimination, homophobia included, but away from support it was more about spreading awareness on all issues to do with human rights, from genocide in Tibet, to the ill treatment in North Korea, to issues like homophobia and racism in our own country. And we have done classes, assemblies, and fundraising type things as part of this.

So in short, yes.

[thesheriff443]

It's not important if black/gay people were born that way, if they had chosen to be that they should still be respected and treated the same way.

you wont get an argument from me about your post.

[the truth]

I think the issues of race and sexuality are very similar and comparable, you don't choose the colour of your skin and you can't choose your sexuality, both are just simply apart of who you are.

so following your train of logic its ok for evander to bring disability and homosexuality into the same sentence?

[Black Dagger]

That is YOUR choice ,same as its MY choice to think no one has a right to tell people what they can or cannot say ,and even worse than that what they THINK,people who say "You have to think like me" are arrogant getts

Absolutely.. personally I'd like if everybody thought like me, Arcade Fire would be the biggest band in the world. But unfortunately I know people are allowed their own opinions and I respect that!

[Vicky.]

I think the issues of race and sexuality are very similar and comparable, you don't choose the colour of your skin and you can't choose your sexuality, both are just simply apart of who you are.

I would agree with this

but

there are still people who think you can chose your sexuality (quite a daft opinion really..) whilst the colour of your skin is something I think is pretty much universally accepted that you cant choose, short of doing a michael jackson and getting bleached, or excessive sunbed use to turn a nice shade of satsuma

[Benjamin]

Not that it's any of your business, but I'm actually part of a peer support group in which we get allocated somebody who is struggling in their lives and we meet up with them once a week just to act as a friend to them, and the girl I've been meeting with for 6 months now, Yasmin, was bullied out of school after she was outed as bisexual by her best friend.

And I've also been part of The Human Rights Group within my high school which has provided support for people who are struggling with any type of discrimination, homophobia included, but away from support it was more about spreading awareness on all issues to do with human rights, from genocide in Tibet, to the ill treatment in North Korea, to issues like homophobia and racism in our own country.

So in short, yes.

Good. I'm glad to see you are actually doing something for the cause and not just saying you are.

[Amy Jade]

That is YOUR choice ,same as its MY choice to think no one has a right to tell people what they can or cannot say ,and even worse than that what they THINK,people who say "You have to think like me" are arrogant getts
I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion but there is a line you should not cross.

[M X]

Good. I'm glad to see you are actually doing something for the cause and not just saying you are.

Thanks.

[joeysteele]

I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion but there is a line you should not cross.

I agree with that too and I do feel he did cross a line/s with his sort of twisted justification of his view on the issue.

[qwerty42]

What's him being black got to do with it?

his point was he didn't think its natural.

Human nature is to be attracted to opposite sex, otherwise we wouldn't exist, bringing his skin colour into it makes no sense. Its like saying its not natural him being black.

[chuff me dizzy]

I think the issues of race and sexuality are very similar and comparable, you don't choose the colour of your skin and you can't choose your sexuality, both are just simply apart of who you are.

Im going to pull you on one part of what you say ,i agree no one can choose the colour of their skin (if they could I would be the same colour as Diana Ross ) but i do not believe ALL gay people are born gay ,I have several gay friends who have married,had children THEN come out as gay ,they were not born that way, thats not saying EVERY gay person is like them ,but it makes the point not EVERYONE is born guy/straight

[Jordan.]

That is YOUR choice ,same as its MY choice to think no one has a right to tell people what they can or cannot say ,and even worse than that what they THINK,people who say "You have to think like me" are arrogant getts

You make it sound like it was just an opinion on what weather he likes

[Tom4784]

so following your train of logic its ok for evander to bring disability and homosexuality into the same sentence?

It's two different things, people aren't defined by their disabilities but their lineage and sexuality can and will impact who they are as people. A disability is a hurdle, Race and Sexuality is not.

[chuff me dizzy]

I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion but there is a line you should not cross.

Who draws that line ?

[the truth]

coming from a country that had black people as slaves, he is a hypocrite. his opinions on gay people is no better than the white people who believed black people to be an inferior race.

he didnt sya inferior and your comparism is a disgraceful embarassment...are th egangs of klu klux klan hunting down and murdering vast numbers fo gay people? is he advocating this? is he suggesting gay people dont get served in shops and restaurants across the country? no. do gay people not have civil rights in this nation?? yes of course they do and he isnt suggesting they shouldnt either.

your moral relativism is a dangerous joke. youll be comparing this to apartheid in south africa next lol ....Im embarassed for you

[M X]

What's him being black got to do with it?

his point was he didn't think its natural.

Human nature is to be attracted to opposite sex, otherwise we wouldn't exist, bringing his skin colour into it makes no sense. Its like saying its not natural him being black.

Who says that it is human nature to be attracted to opposite sex? That's just the kind of ignorant bull**** you've been brainwashed with since you were born.

[chuff me dizzy]

You make it sound like it was just an opinion on what weather he likes

Love it or loath it,its his opinion

[Amy Jade]

Im going to pull you on one part of what you say ,i agree no one can choose the colour of their skin (if they could I would be the same colour as Diana Ross ) but i do not believe ALL gay people are born gay ,I have several guy friends who have married,had children THEN come out as gay ,they were not born that way, thats not saying EVERY gay person is like them ,but it makes the point not EVERYONE is born guy/straight
Some people just take longer to accept and realize their sexuality, that's all.

[Kazanne]

Seems people cannot say anything anymore as someone will always be offended,what happened to freedom of speech? people need to accept not everyone has the same views on things,Is it also wrong to call people ginger,four eyes.fatty,spotty, isn't that as offensive to the people concerned but that's seems to be ok by everyone.

[Jordan.]

Love it or loath it,its his opinion

an opinion that's proven wrong and deserves to be criticised

[the truth]

It's two different things, people aren't defined by their disabilities but their lineage and sexuality can and will impact who they are as people. A disability is a hurdle, Race and Sexuality is not.

its all apples and oranges....but youre totally contardicting yourself....all 3 are seperate subjects with a whole bunch of seperate issues. yoru moral relativism here is dangerous nonsense. you and others get offended when he discusses disability and homosexuality issues in the same sentence , but its fine for you to mention and compare racism and homophobia and the sufferings of black americans? total complete and utter double standards on yoru part. this underlines why its wrong for us to follow a totalitarian path of endless laws banning all form of discussion.

[the truth]

Some people just take longer to accept and realize their sexuality, that's all.

millions wont accept it without debate and discussion which you want outlawed.? mindless

[Benjamin]

I have to say this convo between Luisa and Evander has probably done more for CBB than anything else in recent years.

[Kazanne]

Well Im off to bed ,but this has been a good thread Ben ,very enlightening.

[Tom4784]

Im going to pull you on one part of what you say ,i agree no one can choose the colour of their skin (if they could I would be the same colour as Diana Ross ) but i do not believe ALL gay people are born gay ,I have several guy friends who have married,had children THEN come out as gay ,they were not born that way, thats not saying EVERY gay person is like them ,but it makes the point not EVERYONE is born guy/straight

Repressing your sexuality doesn't change it. You can't choose to be straight just like you can't choose to be gay.

[Lex]

Lets stick to the debate everyone or the thread will get locked.

:joker:...Well, coming to the thread late and only having read the first and last page Ben, i'm not quite sure what anyone has said wrong this time?...but by the heated last few posts...it really does let me know that i'm back on tibbs! lol.

...As to your original question?...Well tbh, I cannot for the life of me fathom out just what Evander did or said wrong????
He is obviously of the opinion that if 'Homosexuality' could be cured, ...just like other 'physical discrepancies' [leg alignment issues, was his example] then in his view, they ought to be attended to!
Well!...what's wrong with that??...nothing if you ask me!...I have several homosexual grand-kids and one great-granddaughter that I couldn't possibly love any more than I already do!...I would have loved them to have had the opportunity to have had the same life as the rest of us!
No matter how pc you would like me to be....I will never make myself believe that being gay is what nature intended, and i'm of the firm opinion that no-one would have ever chosen to be gay if they had the choice before being born.
...But if by some miracle we had come up with some wonder-drug that gave a teenager the choice?...and my grandkids chose to remain gay...then so be it!...So long as it was their choice and not a bow to some weird pc conformity...and they were happy...then I would be just as happy as they were!!

Evander has said nothing wrong!


Cheers.

[Vicky.]

Some people just take longer to accept and realize their sexuality, that's all.

I do think sometimes its a choice. Rarely, but sometimes.

Eg. I had a 'friend' (using that term loosely, didnt like her but she was alwas there :bored: ) who always slept about with guys, had boyfriends all her life, told everyone she was 'bored' of blokes, got a woman, then after they split 4 months later went back to guys and has never looked twice at a woman since.

Some would say that means shes bi. But I think she just wanted a change/to shock people :shrug:

[Seanbon]

in all honesty its extremely sad that a black American boxing champion can be so narrow minded, to the fact that gay people don't have a choice when it comes to sexuality in the same way a person does not get to choose the color of their skin.

If he has been brought up in a Religion that takes the Bible literally,despite the fact that he has travelled the world,then these views will be ingrained in him,not his fault,imo! That he would become enlightened after a few days in the UK is very unlikely?!? Also he's been slapped around the head all his life,so I'm guessing he might have some sort of brain damage? Not an excuse for his remarks,but he's probably easily led by his Pastor!?!

[Amy Jade]

millions wont accept it without debate and discussion which you want outlawed.? mindless
Where did I say i felt it needed to be 'outlawed'?

I think it's very healthy to debate on subjects like this. I just very strongly disagree with his opinion that being homosexual is like being handicapped.

[the truth]

Repressing your sexuality doesn't change it. You can't choose to be straight just like you can't choose to be gay.

sorry were not allowed to discuss the topic you advocated its banned to discuss the topic so stop discussing it

[chuff me dizzy]

an opinion that's proven wrong and deserves to be criticised

By YOU ?

[the truth]

Where did I say i felt it needed to be 'outlawed'?

I think it's very healthy to debate on subjects like this. I just very strongly disagree with his opinion that being homosexual is like being handicapped.

he didnt say that youre being dishonest

[the truth]

I do think sometimes its a choice. Rarely, but sometimes.

Eg. I had a 'friend' (using that term loosely, didnt like her but she was alwas there :bored: ) who always slept about with guys, had boyfriends all her life, told everyone she was 'bored' of blokes, got a woman, then after they split 4 months later went back to guys and has never looked twice at a woman since.

Some would say that means shes bi. But I think she just wanted a change/to shock people :shrug:

are we allowed to discuss it? evander wasnt?

[JTM45]

I have several gay friends who have married,had children THEN come out as gay ,they were not born that way,

In instances like that those people were born gay but because of the way they were made to feel about how society sees being gay they felt they had to repress it and thought that if they lived a straight lifestyle then it might somehow 'go away' or something.
That's why they usually can't keep living a lie and are so unhappy that they have no choice but to come out in the end.

[Chuck]

I have to say this convo between Luisa and Evander has probably done more for CBB than anything else in recent years.

:joker::joker::joker: so true

[the truth]

In instances like that those people were born gay but because of the way they were made to feel about how society sees being gay they felt they had to repress it and thought that if they lived a straight lifestyle then it might somehow 'go away' or something.
That's why they usually can't keep living a lie and are so unhappy that they have no choice but to come out in the end.

how do u know for fact thats exactly the same for every single homosexual person on planet earth? you dont. so stop acting like you do.

[Tom4784]

its all apples and oranges....but youre totally contardicting yourself....all 3 are seperate subjects with a whole bunch of seperate issues. yoru moral relativism here is dangerous nonsense. you and others get offended when he discusses disability and homosexuality issues in the same sentence , but its fine for you to mention and compare racism and homophobia and the sufferings of black americans? total complete and utter double standards on yoru part. this underlines why its wrong for us to follow a totalitarian path of endless laws banning all form of discussion.

How is it not comparable? The last generation's social issues pretty much revolved around the rights of black people and the social issues of this generation revolves around Gay Rights. It's simply the progression of the times.

[thesheriff443]

If he has been brought up in a Religion that takes the Bible literally,despite the fact that he has travelled the world,then these views will be ingrained in him,not his fault,imo! That he would become enlightened after a few days in the UK is very unlikely?!? Also he's been slapped around the head all his life,so I'm guessing he might have some sort of brain damage? Not an excuse for his remarks,but he's probably easily led by his Pastor!?!

you make a good point.

[Jemal]

*grabs popcorn*

[joeysteele]

In instances like that those people were born gay but because of the way they were made to feel about how society sees being gay they felt they had to repress it and thought that if they lived a straight lifestyle then it might somehow 'go away' or something.
That's why they usually can't keep living a lie and are so unhappy that they have no choice but to come out in the end.

Really insightful comment JTM45, very well said. I agree with every word of that too.

[Jordan.]

By YOU ?

By every gay person in the world, who KNOWS it isn't a choice. Something a straight person couldn't know :shrug:

[the truth]

How is it not comparable? The last generation's social issues pretty much revolved around the rights of black people and the social issues of this generation revolves around Gay Rights. It's simply the progression of the times.

Progression in YOUR opinion...but you and others here want it banned to discuss the matter...so your ebeing hypicritical even by discussing it

[JTM45]

how do u know for fact thats exactly the same for every single homosexual person on planet earth? you dont. so stop acting like you do.

Where did i say that ? Oh no......i didn't!!!:rolleyes:

[the truth]

By every gay person in the world, who KNOWS it isn't a choice. Something a straight person couldn't know :shrug:

EVERY gay person? lol spoken to all the 100s of millions have you? pretty arrogant to think your opinion counts exactly the same for every single gay person on the planet...and you accuse others of stereotyping peple? LOL
What a hypocrite

[chuff me dizzy]

I do think sometimes its a choice. Rarely, but sometimes.

Eg. I had a 'friend' (using that term loosely, didnt like her but she was alwas there :bored: ) who always slept about with guys, had boyfriends all her life, told everyone she was 'bored' of blokes, got a woman, then after they split 4 months later went back to guys and has never looked twice at a woman since.

Some would say that means shes bi. But I think she just wanted a change/to shock people :shrug:

I know a LOT of people like that ,one example is a girl who was brought up over the road from me ,at 16 was the town bike, if it had a pulse she laid under it ,then at 25 turned gay ,was gay for a few years ,lost track of her until 11th November last year when i was at our local hospital waiting for my Grandaughter to be born ,and she came in the hospital coffee shop I was in ,She asked me what I was doing there, i told her, she said "Oh my daughters in ,shes having my grandson today too"so clearly no longer gay ,she PICKED and she CHOSE

[the truth]

Where did i say that ? Oh no......i didn't!!!:rolleyes:

you pretty much did....everyone is different including gay people

[Jemal]

But tbh. In defence of evander.
I could just wake up tommorow and just decide to start flirting with boys..(i would never, just example) but in that case he does have a point that sometimes you can choose to be gay or not.

Ollie is a great example imo, he likes boys but chooses to have more girlfriends hence why he has never slept with a boy lol.

[Amy Jade]

he didnt say that youre being dishonest
According to the video I saw he did. he said that gay people should be fixed like handicapped people who want to be cursed of their ailment.

You've still now showed me where I said the about outlawing anything, so maybe you're the one being dishonest? or twisting what people say to fit your agenda.

[chuff me dizzy]

you pretty much did....everyone is different including gay people

"Pretty much" is not DID

[the truth]

I know people who were once in somosexual relationships now with with the opposite sex. Ive no idea if they chose to change their sexual desires nor am I interested to ask. its not my business. but to hear some posters here clainm to know the exact choices of all homosexuals on the planet is the most mindless stereotyped drivel Ive ever heard in my life

[Apple202]

"mindless drivel" is what i tend to think when i have the displeasure of reading your posts, to tell you the truth

[the truth]

"Pretty much" is not DID

not everything in life has to be 100% literal...things cna be inferred too....the poster generalised massively and there was no clause in the statement that allowed for any other opinion for the masses.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Did you choose to be straight chuff? Did you actively make the choice at 13 or so & think 'I'll be straight'

[chuff me dizzy]

In instances like that those people were born gay but because of the way they were made to feel about how society sees being gay they felt they had to repress it and thought that if they lived a straight lifestyle then it might somehow 'go away' or something.
That's why they usually can't keep living a lie and are so unhappy that they have no choice but to come out in the end.

How do you know they were born gay ?

[the truth]

"mindless drivel" is what i tend to think when i have the displeasure of reading your posts, to tell you the truth

thats because you want all opposing views or opinions that make you question anything banned by the radical liberals

[Macie Lightfoot]

How do you know they were born gay ?

Did you choose your sexuality?

[Jemal]

You can easily just get out of bed one morning and decide to try your luck with boys. Its not hard. That obviously comes under 'making a choice' like evander tried to say.
Im not defending him but in bits he was talking abit of sense.

[Tom4784]

Progression in YOUR opinion...but you and others here want it banned to discuss the matter...so your ebeing hypicritical even by discussing it

I've not even stated my opinion on whether or not Evander was entitled to that opinion or not so I'd advise you actually try READING my posts before you jump to conclusions.

All I've simply said is that Sexuality is not a choice and it's very comparable to issues of race, which it is.

[chuff me dizzy]

Did you choose your sexuality?

Of course I did ,I chose to marry a man

[Vicky.]

Did you choose your sexuality?

You could. You could make the choice now if you wanted to..easy enough done

I do not for one minute believe that the majority of gay people choose to be. But I do think these days some people chose to be gay as its seen to be the 'in' thing. Kinda like how 5 years ago everyone was bi, then when it wasnt trendy anymore, you never heard of bi people anymore :laugh:

[Amy Jade]

"mindless drivel" is what i tend to think when i have the displeasure of reading your posts, to tell you the truth

http://deadfix.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/R-Kelly_.gif

[JTM45]

I know people who were once in somosexual relationships now with with the opposite sex. Ive no idea if they chose to change their sexual desires nor am I interested to ask. its not my business. but to hear some posters here clainm to know the exact choices of all homosexuals on the planet is the most mindless stereotyped drivel Ive ever heard in my life

I was just stating what i know from my experience and the knowledge i've personally absorbed in my lifetime. I never said "this is how it is in every single case for every single person!".
Without writing a whole page on the subject people have to generalize to a certain extent.

[Macie Lightfoot]

You can easily just get out of bed one morning and decide to try your luck with boys. Its not hard. That obviously comes under 'making a choice' like evander tried to say.
Im not defending him but in bits he was talking abit of sense.

That's what we call living a lie, being in denial, etc etc

[the truth]

I've not even stated my opinion on whether or not Evander was entitled to that opinion or not so I'd advise you actually try READING my posts before you jump to conclusions.

All I've simply said is that Sexuality is not a choice and it's very comparable to issues of race, which it is.

no its not comparable at all.....also to say its not a choice? who are you speaking for? yourself ? or every gay person on the planet? why are you allowed to express a view and evander isnt?

[chuff me dizzy]

EVERY gay person? lol spoken to all the 100s of millions have you? pretty arrogant to think your opinion counts exactly the same for every single gay person on the planet...and you accuse others of stereotyping peple? LOL
What a hypocrite

:worship:

[the truth]

I was just stating what i know from my experience and the knowledge i've personally absorbed in my lifetime. I never said "this is how it is in every single case for every single person!".
Without writing a whole page on the subject people have to generalize to a certain extent.

so youre allowed to generalize and offer an opinion, but evander isnt? fair?

[Me. I Am Salman]

You could. You could make the choice now if you wanted to..easy enough done

I do not for one minute believe that the majority of gay people choose to be. But I do think these days some people chose to be gay as its seen to be the 'in' thing. Kinda like how 5 years ago everyone was bi.

whoever does stuff like that in order to be cool or whatever is clearly not actually gay so it doesn't speak for the gay community and it's not relevant to anything

[Benjamin]

whoever does stuff like that in order to be cool or whatever is clearly not actually gay so it doesn't speak for the gay community and it's not relevant

The gay community does have differing opinions though. We are not all one mind, one voice.

[Vicky.]

whoever does stuff like that in order to be cool or whatever is clearly not actually gay and so it doesn't speak for the gay community and it's not relevant

Never said it spoke for the gay community..even said in the same post that the huge majority of gay people are born gay... But some people DO make the choice.

[chuff me dizzy]

You could. You could make the choice now if you wanted to..easy enough done

I do not for one minute believe that the majority of gay people choose to be. But I do think these days some people chose to be gay as its seen to be the 'in' thing. Kinda like how 5 years ago everyone was bi, then when it wasnt trendy anymore, you never heard of bi people anymore :laugh:

Very true

[the truth]

whoever does stuff like that in order to be cool or whatever is clearly not actually gay so it doesn't speak for the gay community and it's not relevant

who are you to say who speaks for the gay community? who are you to judge other peoples choices and behaviour? youre being as judgemental as those who criticize gay people now. ps why are you allowed an opinion on this matter and evander isnt?

[Vicky.]

The gay community does have differing opinions though. We are not all one mind, one voice.

Seems you are meant to be though. Come on Benjamin, join the ranks fgs :bored:

[Macie Lightfoot]

Of course I did ,I chose to marry a man

Choosing to marry a man isn't the same as choosing to be turned on by men.

You could. You could make the choice now if you wanted to..easy enough done

Again, making a conscious decision and saying "I'm straight" is entirely different from choosing what gives you an erection or turns you on.

[Jemal]

That's what we call living a lie, being in denial, etc etc

But mate, your still choosing..
Lie or no lie you are choosing.

Let me use you as an example, dont take offence to this but just a harmless example.
You could be straight right now because you choose not to be gay.
True or false?
Either way you choose your sexuality because if you want to be gay you can bloody be gay? If you choose not to be gay, you choose to go for girls and now especially if you like both sex's you CHOOSE to be bloody bisexual.

What people are getting mixed up is the feelings. You dont choose your feelings of course but you choose your sexuality, lie or not, that is the truth.

[Tom4784]

You could. You could make the choice now if you wanted to..easy enough done

I do not for one minute believe that the majority of gay people choose to be. But I do think these days some people chose to be gay as its seen to be the 'in' thing. Kinda like how 5 years ago everyone was bi, then when it wasnt trendy anymore, you never heard of bi people anymore :laugh:

I disagree, sure you could sleep with someone of the same sex just like you could sleep with someone of the opposite sex who isn't attractive to you. Sex is Sex but you can't change your sexuality.

Simply saying that you're straight/gay/bi is different to actually being any of those things.

[qwerty42]

Who says that it is human nature to be attracted to opposite sex? That's just the kind of ignorant bull**** you've been brainwashed with since you were born.

How are we created? Male mates with female. How is that ignorant?

[Benjamin]

Seems you are meant to be though. Come on Benjamin, join the ranks fgs :bored:

This is what annoys me. A lot of younger gays (sorry to generalise here) seem to think that we should all think the same and if we don't then we must be ignorant and/or support homophobia.

[Stevep]

Evander got warned for having an opinion on his beliefs but if the shoe was on the other foot and an individual claimed homosexuality was 'normal' should that individual in turn be warned? If not why not when that individual could possibly have 'offended' people of which are religious?

The world has gone PC mad, Evander was neither malicious or nasty, it was quite plainly an opinion that he had and shared. Whether he is right or wrong does not come into the discussion.

[JTM45]

so youre allowed to generalize and offer an opinion, but evander isnt? fair?

When did i say Evander isn't ?
I said in my first post on the subject that he IS entitled to his opinion but that i disagree strongly with it.
So you're saying that nobody is allowed to comment on anything unless they're prepared to write a complete thesis on the subject are you ? Like you do you mean........:rolleyes:

[chuff me dizzy]

Choosing to marry a man isn't the same as choosing to be turned on by men.



Again, making a conscious decision and saying "I'm straight" is entirely different from choosing what gives you an erection or turns you on.

If he didnt turn me on I would have married his sister ,so thats a stupid thing to say, Ive said before and I will say again ,SOME people are born gay ,SOME are not

[Vicky.]

I disagree, sure you could sleep with someone of the same sex just like you could sleep with someone of the opposite sex who isn't attractive to you. Sex is Sex but you can't change your sexuality.

Simply saying that you're straight/gay/bi is different to actually being any of those things.

Hmm I guess.
These people see themselves as gay though, and who are we to tell them they arent? :shrug:

[MeMyselfAndI]

But mate, your still choosing..
Lie or no lie you are choosing.

Let me use you as an example, dont take offence to this but just a harmless example.
You could be straight right now because you choose not to be gay.
True or false.
Either way you choose your sexuality because if you want to be gay you can bloody be gay? If you choose not to be gay, you choose to go for girls and now especially if you like both sex's you CHOOSE to be bloody bisexual.

What people are getting mixed up is the feelings. You dont choose your feelings of course but you choose your sexuality, lie or not, that is the truth.

This is where people get confused.
Being gay is being attracted too the same sex
A gay person can choose too sleep with the opposite sex (denial, self hatred, baby etc), but they cannot choose too be straight
Being gay is about attractions & feelings, a gay man can have sex with a girl, It doesn't make them straight

[Jordan.]

But mate, your still choosing..
Lie or no lie you are choosing.

Let me use you as an example, dont take offence to this but just a harmless example.
You could be straight right now because you choose not to be gay.
True or false.
Either way you choose your sexuality because if you want to be gay you can bloody be gay? If you choose not to be gay, you choose to go for girls and now especially if you like both sex's you CHOOSE to be bloody bisexual.

What people are getting mixed up is the feelings. You dont choose your feelings of course but you choose your sexuality, lie or not, that is the truth.

If it was as simple as that do you think gay people would open themselves up to ignorance and abuse if they could just choose to be straight?

[joeysteele]

I disagree, sure you could sleep with someone of the same sex just like you could sleep with someone of the opposite sex who isn't attractive to you. Sex is Sex but you can't change your sexuality.

Simply saying that you're straight/gay/bi is different to actually being any of those things.

Very relevant and strong points there.

[chuff me dizzy]

This is where people get confused.
Being gay is being attracted too the same sex
A gay person can choose too sleep with the opposite sex, but they cannot choose too be straight

What about those who CHOSE to get married to the opposite sex, have children by them ?

[Macie Lightfoot]

But mate, your still choosing..
Lie or no lie you are choosing.

Let me use you as an example, dont take offence to this but just a harmless example.
You could be straight right now because you choose not to be gay.
True or false?
Either way you choose your sexuality because if you want to be gay you can bloody be gay? If you choose not to be gay, you choose to go for girls and now especially if you like both sex's you CHOOSE to be bloody bisexual.

What people are getting mixed up is the feelings. You dont choose your feelings of course but you choose your sexuality, lie or not, that is the truth.

That's all semantics and labels, you can call yourself whatever you want. I can call myself straight but wish me good luck in getting it up if I'm gonna try to have sex with a girl. You say that you don't choose your feelings but you choose your sexuality, but sexuality is defined as sexual feelings?

[Me. I Am Salman]

who are you to say who speaks for the gay community? who are you to judge other peoples choices and behaviour? youre being as judgemental as those who criticize gay people now. ps why are you allowed an opinion on this matter and evander isnt?

oh cut that crap, how can someone choose to be sexually attracted to a gender they originally aren't :crazy: it's impossible to be able to do that.

[Vicky.]

This is what annoys me. A lot of younger gays (sorry to generalise here) seem to think that we should all think the same and if we don't then we must be ignorant and/or support homophobia.

Yeah it happens all the time. I get it sometimes for going against the grain..I get 'women should stick together' and all that bull****. As if we should all think the same about every damn thing.

[subliminal]

Supposing someone turned to a fellow housemate and expressed all of those thoughts - comparing gay people to being 'handicapped' - 'a choice' - and something that should be 'fixed' etc - but about black people instead?

What do you think the outcome of that conversation would have been?

So please explain why it is any more acceptable to say those things about gay people?

[the truth]

When did i say Evander isn't ?
I said in my first post on the subject that he IS entitled to his opinion but that i disagree strongly with it.
So you're saying that nobody is allowed to comment on anything unless they're prepared to write a complete thesis on the subject are you ? Like you do you mean........:rolleyes:

sorry if my posts are too long for your attention span. trying reading the shorter ones if its easier for you :sleep:

[the truth]

Supposing someone turned to a fellow housemate and expressed all of those thoughts - comparing gay people to being 'handicapped' - 'a choice' - and something that should be 'fixed' etc - but about black people instead?

What do you think the outcome of that conversation would have been?

So please explain why it is any more acceptable to say those things about gay people?

he didnt say that

[MeMyselfAndI]

What about those who CHOSE to get married to the opposite sex, have children by them ?

What gay/bi people who marry the opposite sex? They are either bi or in denial & want too be normal, they likely have feeling for the other half, just no attraction

[chuff me dizzy]

If it was as simple as that do you think gay people would open themselves up to ignorance and abuse if they could just choose to be straight?

Those days are long gone ,you are talking of years ago ,when (as Peter Kay so rightly says) Your Mother would never have said the word lesbian ,they said it under their breath ,those day are long gone ,as someone said ^^ its not frowned upon now, its the "In thing" due to shows like BB ,who over the years the vast majority of gay housemates have been the BEST housemates

[Jemal]

gonna have to agree to disagree tbh.
got college tommorow or today should i say.

[Me. I Am Salman]

But mate, your still choosing..
Lie or no lie you are choosing.

Let me use you as an example, dont take offence to this but just a harmless example.
You could be straight right now because you choose not to be gay.
True or false?
Either way you choose your sexuality because if you want to be gay you can bloody be gay? If you choose not to be gay, you choose to go for girls and now especially if you like both sex's you CHOOSE to be bloody bisexual.

What people are getting mixed up is the feelings. You dont choose your feelings of course but you choose your sexuality, lie or not, that is the truth.

you don't choose your sexuality but it's your choice on whether you pursue on it or not

[the truth]

oh cut that crap, how can someone choose to be sexually attracted to a gender they originally aren't :crazy: it's impossible to be able to do that.

that facially gesture youve made is offensive , maybe you should be banned
by the way again youre generalizing it seems about every single gay person, which is what youre supposed to be preaching agaisnt. kind of arrogant hypocrisy, thank goodness we dont yet live in the stalinist PC world you advocate

[MeMyselfAndI]

What about those who CHOSE to get married to the opposite sex, have children by them ?

Could you choose to find girls sexy & a want too have sex with them if you felt like it?

[Jordan.]

Those days are long gone ,you are talking of years ago ,when (as Peter Kay so rightly says) Your Mother would never have said the word lesbian ,they said it under their breath ,those day are long gone ,as someone said ^^ its not frowned upon now, its the "In thing" due to shows like BB ,who over the years the vast majority of gay housemates have been the BEST housemates

The ignorance never stops

[the truth]

you don't choose your sexuality but it's your choice on whether you pursue on it or not

so speaks 1 person for all 6 billion humans lol

[chuff me dizzy]

What gay/bi people who marry the opposite sex? They are either bi or in denial & want too be normal, they likely have feeling for the other half, just no attraction

Whos to say ?Im not arrogant enough to proclaim I speak for every straight woman in the world, as no one should be so arrogant to say they speak for every gay man,woman in the world either

[JTM45]

What about those who CHOSE to get married to the opposite sex, have children by them ?

But if they're gay to start with they'll still be gay if they're married to someone of the opposite sex and have children by them.
I think 'choose' is too loose a term in that case.
Sexuality has been proved to be determined by x and y chromosomes and you can't change that. You can choose to live a certain way but that doesn't mean you can choose to change your pre-determined sexuality.

[chuff me dizzy]

The ignorance never stops

Of course it does, thats a stupid thing to say

[Macie Lightfoot]

Those days are long gone ,you are talking of years ago ,when (as Peter Kay so rightly says) Your Mother would never have said the word lesbian ,they said it under their breath ,those day are long gone ,as someone said ^^ its not frowned upon now, its the "In thing" due to shows like BB ,who over the years the vast majority of gay housemates have been the BEST housemates

I don't like in the UK and quite frankly know nothing about British legislation and whatnot, but if we expand this to worldwide (which considering that Evander is American, I think we have to look worldwide) this is simply not true lmfao like blatantly false.

[the truth]

But if they're gay to start with they'll still be gay if they're married to someone of the opposite sex and have children by them.
I think 'choose' is too loose a term in that case.
Sexuality has been proved to be determined by x and y chromosomes and you can't change that. You can choose to live a certain way but that doesn't mean you can choose to change your pre-determined sexuality.

goodness youre long winded zzzzzzz:sleep:

[joeysteele]

The ignorance never stops

It doesn't and it seems past prejudices and odd views of being gay are still well and truly around as demonstrated by the views of Evander on BB tonight.

[chuff me dizzy]

Could you choose to find girls sexy & a want too have sex with them if you felt like it?

If i was pissed up and the wind was in the right direction whos to say :wink: ,No I dont find girls sexy ,I can think they are stunning looking ,nice girls,but not in a sexual way, no

[sampvt]

What about those who CHOSE to get married to the opposite sex, have children by them ?

Chuff don't be daft, that's frowned upon isn't it.

[JTM45]

sorry if my posts are too long for your attention span. trying reading the shorter ones if its easier for you :sleep:

What are you actually talking about ?
When did i say anything about your posts being too long. You are extremely ignorant and a tad arrogant.
If someone makes a post you can't argue with you just go off at a tangent to avoid admitting you might have spoken incorrectly. You clearly don't understand even the most blatant sarcasm. I find it hysterical! :hugesmile:

[Sophiee]

If i was pissed up and the wind was in the right direction whos to say :wink: ,No I dont find girls sexy ,I can think they are stunning looking ,nice girls,but not in a sexual way, no
so you can't choose to be bisexual/lesbian clearly? you've just contradicted everything you've said before in this thread.

[Macie Lightfoot]

Whos to say ?Im not arrogant enough to proclaim I speak for every straight woman in the world, as no one should be so arrogant to say they speak for every gay man,woman in the world either

But a straight woman is arrogant enough to say that some gays choose to be gay and some don't choose, and thereby speak for an entirely different demographic?

[chuff me dizzy]

It doesn't and is seems past prejudices and odd views of being gay are still well and truly around as demonstrated by the views of Evander on BB tonight.

Hes lived his life in the boxing circle, where I doubt they are very few gay men ,hes also very religious ,I do NOT agree with some of what he said,but I defend his right to say what he said

[subliminal]

Supposing someone turned to a fellow housemate and expressed all of those thoughts - comparing gay people to being 'handicapped' - 'a choice' - and something that should be 'fixed' etc - but about black people instead?

What do you think the outcome of that conversation would have been?

So please explain why it is any more acceptable to say those things about gay people?

he didnt say that

Actual quotes for you

Evander: No, it don’t make no difference. If you were born and your leg were turned this way, what do you do, you go to the doctor and get it fixed back right. (suggesting that if you are gay you are akin to being handicapped / disabled and you go get it fixed)
Luisa: It’s not about being fixed, it’s about… that’s just the way that you are.
Evander: No no no no no, you mean to tell me…
Luisa: I really don’t want to have this conversation.
Evander: I’m not mad, I’m just saying…
Luisa: You don’t understand, I don’t think it’s an appropriate conversation to have in this house, honestly.
Evander: All I’m trying to tell you, you know how handicapped people are born, you can’t say because they were born that way… (See below)
Luisa: You can’t compare, of course you can’t compare someone that’s gay to someone that’s handicapped, it’s not a choice.
Evander: Yes it is a choice, come on, that ain’t the way nobody is made. (suggesting gay people are not born that way - I can tell you as a gay man I most definitely WAS born gay. Growing up as a child in a deeply homophobic society with all of the hatred and bullying I endured - don't you think if I had the choice I would have chosen to be gay???)
Luisa: I’m tired. I don’t think people have a choice in their sexuality, or they would be unhappy.
Today, Big Brother called Evander to the Diary Room to caution him about offensive language, but stopped short of giving him an formal reprimand.
“Before you entered the Big Brother house, the rules regarding unacceptable language and behaviour were explained to you. Last night, in a conversation with Luisa, you expressed the view that being gay was not normal and that it could be fixed,” explained Big Brother.
“While Big Brother understands these are the views you hold, they aren’t the views that are held by a large section of society and expressing these views will be extremely offensive to many people. Do you understand why?”

[Jordan.]

Of course it does, thats a stupid thing to say

I think you've proven to be the stupid one here. Even when given a valid point you still think it's a choice and one that's simply to be an "In thing".

[the truth]

When did i say Evander isn't ?
I said in my first post on the subject that he IS entitled to his opinion but that i disagree strongly with it.
So you're saying that nobody is allowed to comment on anything unless they're prepared to write a complete thesis on the subject are you ? Like you do you mean........:rolleyes:

youve got a short and selective memory

[chuff me dizzy]

But a straight woman is arrogant enough to say that some gays choose to be gay and some don't choose, and thereby speak for an entirely different demographic?

I am talking of people i know ,I do not speak for the world, no one does

[Macie Lightfoot]

I am talking of people i know ,I do not speak for the world, no one does

You said that some people choose and some people don't, I think that covers everyone in a demographic you quite frankly have on knowledge of.

[chuff me dizzy]

I think you've proven to be the stupid one here. Even when given a valid point you still think it's a choice and one that's simply to be an "In thing".

Jordan think what the hell you like ,your opinion is just that, YOURS

[chuff me dizzy]

so you can't choose to be bisexual/lesbian clearly? you've just contradicted everything you've said before in this thread.

I was joking ,lighten up for Gods sake ,Im a straight woman ,and I make no apologies for being that way

[Me. I Am Salman]

that facially gesture youve made is offensive , maybe you should be banned
by the way again youre generalizing it seems about every single gay person, which is what youre supposed to be preaching agaisnt. kind of arrogant hypocrisy, thank goodness we dont yet live in the stalinist PC world you advocate

why should I be banned for using a forum smiley :crazy: if it was ban worthy then it wouldn't be there

and no I'm not generalising I'm simply using common sense. No one can change their sexual attractions, if they could then tell me why are there gays who commit suicide because of their sexuality if they could easily just randomly start fancying women

[Benjamin]

Evander: No, it don’t make no difference. If you were born and your leg were turned this way, what do you do, you go to the doctor and get it fixed back right.
Luisa: It’s not about being fixed, it’s about… that’s just the way that you are.
Evander: No no no no no, you mean to tell me…
Luisa: I really don’t want to have this conversation.
Evander: I’m not mad, I’m just saying…
Luisa: You don’t understand, I don’t think it’s an appropriate conversation to have in this house, honestly.
Evander: All I’m trying to tell you, you know how handicapped people are born, you can’t say because they were born that way…
Luisa: You can’t compare, of course you can’t compare someone that’s gay to someone that’s handicapped, it’s not a choice.
Evander: Yes it is a choice, come on, that ain’t the way nobody is made.
Luisa: I’m tired. I don’t think people have a choice in their sexuality, or they would be unhappy.
Today, Big Brother called Evander to the Diary Room to caution him about offensive language, but stopped short of giving him an formal reprimand.
“Before you entered the Big Brother house, the rules regarding unacceptable language and behaviour were explained to you. Last night, in a conversation with Luisa, you expressed the view that being gay was not normal and that it could be fixed,” explained Big Brother.
“While Big Brother understands these are the views you hold, they aren’t the views that are held by a large section of society and expressing these views will be extremely offensive to many people. Do you understand why?”

He doesn't show hatred to homosexuality.

[the truth]

Supposing someone turned to a fellow housemate and expressed all of those thoughts - comparing gay people to being 'handicapped' - 'a choice' - and something that should be 'fixed' etc - but about black people instead?

What do you think the outcome of that conversation would have been?

So please explain why it is any more acceptable to say those things about gay people?



Actual quotes for you

Evander: No, it don’t make no difference. If you were born and your leg were turned this way, what do you do, you go to the doctor and get it fixed back right. (suggesting that if you are gay you are akin to being handicapped / disabled and you go get it fixed)
Luisa: It’s not about being fixed, it’s about… that’s just the way that you are.
Evander: No no no no no, you mean to tell me…
Luisa: I really don’t want to have this conversation.
Evander: I’m not mad, I’m just saying…
Luisa: You don’t understand, I don’t think it’s an appropriate conversation to have in this house, honestly.
Evander: All I’m trying to tell you, you know how handicapped people are born, you can’t say because they were born that way… (See below)
Luisa: You can’t compare, of course you can’t compare someone that’s gay to someone that’s handicapped, it’s not a choice.
Evander: Yes it is a choice, come on, that ain’t the way nobody is made. (suggesting gay people are not born that way - I can tell you as a gay man I most definitely WAS born gay. Growing up as a child in a deeply homophobic society with all of the hatred and bullying I endured - don't you think if I had the choice I would have chosen to be gay???)
Luisa: I’m tired. I don’t think people have a choice in their sexuality, or they would be unhappy.
Today, Big Brother called Evander to the Diary Room to caution him about offensive language, but stopped short of giving him an formal reprimand.
“Before you entered the Big Brother house, the rules regarding unacceptable language and behaviour were explained to you. Last night, in a conversation with Luisa, you expressed the view that being gay was not normal and that it could be fixed,” explained Big Brother.
“While Big Brother understands these are the views you hold, they aren’t the views that are held by a large section of society and expressing these views will be extremely offensive to many people. Do you understand why?”

thats your experience and I wish you luck , but that doesnt mean every homosexual person is the same. some are some arent, were all different people on this planet., yet you are guilty now of genberalizing about all gay people having no choices and all being the same as you...isnt it stereotyping youre rpeachinbg against? isnt it acase where we are all individuals

so evander thinks some people choose it, so what? maybe they do maybe they dont so what? its just an opinion. you dont need to get offended by this , its not necessarily you hes discussing. granted there have been and will always be people who think its worng or whatever. but banning people from their opinions and thoughts on it , will get us nowhere.

the gay people I know have no issues displaying their sexuality or love for whoever....so why is it an issue to get a man banned for simply stating his own opinion? how does that help a free democratic society/

[MeMyselfAndI]

I was joking ,lighten up for Gods sake ,Im a straight woman ,and I make no apologies for being that way

she means you've proven that you can't choose your sexuality, as you've said you could never find girls sexy in a sexual way

[joeysteele]

Hes lived his life in the boxing circle, where I doubt they are very few gay men ,hes also very religious ,I do NOT agree with some of what he said,but I defend his right to say what he said

That's a valid point, as to his life and the people he will have been around, that doesn't excuse ignorance though for me.

You know I love your posts Chuff and very often agree many times with you too. I take on board his background but he is on a national TV programme which he is well aware is being filmd 24/7.

So while he has,in that environment within reason, every right to say what he thinks of course.
It is then,(I think anyway),better counsel to curb what you say in that public environment that may not be an acceptable justification for the viewpoint.

[Seanbon]

By every gay person in the world, who KNOWS it isn't a choice. Something a straight person couldn't know :shrug:

That's a bit heterophobic,to suggest a "straight" person would have no understanding that a gay person is born that way!?!:conf:

[Macie Lightfoot]

He doesn't show hatred to homosexuality.

But saying it can be fixed inherently means that he views it as wrong and needing fixing.

[JTM45]

youve got a short and selective memory

That's your second attempt at rebuffing the same post i made and it makes no more sense or has no more relevance than your first attempt.:hugesmile:

Good work!

[MeMyselfAndI]

He doesn't show hatred to homosexuality.

normally when someone says 'but' or 'I'm just saying', they follow it up with an insult, it doesn't mean they're not mad/insulting at all, I thought everyone knew that D:

e.g.
"I'm not being rude, but you look like ****"

[the truth]

why should I be banned for using a forum smiley :crazy: if it was ban worthy then it wouldn't be there

and no I'm not generalising I'm simply using common sense. No one can change their sexual attractions, if they could then tell me why are there gays who commit suicide because of their sexuality if they could easily just randomly start fancying women

yes you are generalizing and enforcing your own view and opinion on all 6 billion plus humans on the planet. spectacularly ignorant and arrogant that is. thats not a forum smiley as you know so youre also being disingenuous and to call people crazy is also discriminatory and insensitive, so youre a total hypocrite too

plenty of hetrosexual people commit suicide too , the rates are far higher in hetrosexual men on average than anyone else , often due to drugs , booze, broken families, lost access to their kids , career pressure and you barely post about the matter because its not part of your agenda.


you cant speak for all gay people and to do so is stereotypying everyone. stick to your own experience, can you change from being so judgemental and stereotyping people/

[Benjamin]

But saying it can be fixed inherently means that he views it as wrong and needing fixing.

Oh yes, I haven't disagreed his opinion is wrong, I just don't see it as homophobia, just narrow minded.

[subliminal]

He doesn't show hatred to homosexuality.

He didn't have to express hatred - he expressed enough through his homophobic views thanks. Oh and as a gay man I think this description of homophobia is about right...

'Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, may be based on irrational fear, and is sometimes related to religious beliefs.'

[chuff me dizzy]

That's a valid point, as to his life and the people he will have been around, that doesn't excuse ignorance though for me.

You know I love your posts Chuff and very often agree many times with you too. I take on board his background but he is on a national TV programme which he is well aware is being filmd 24/7.

So while he has,in that environment within reason, every right to say what he thinks of course.
It is then,(I think anyway),better counsel to curb what you say in that public environment that may not be an acceptable justification for the viewpoint.

He did himself no favours tonight by what he said ,but thats not my argument Joey its his right to say it that i think where the argument lies ,I loath and kick and scream against the PC brigade and always will ,no one has a right to tell me,or anyone else what they are allowed to say or think ,they can tell you they dont agree with what you said and then it stops there, to carry on after that is arrogance

[the truth]

That's your second attempt at rebuffing the same post i made and it makes no more sense or has no more relevance than your first attempt.:hugesmile:

Good work!

it makes perfect sense youre either in denial or lack the intellect to work it out.

[Macie Lightfoot]

I think chuff needs educating on what it means to be arrogant

[Me. I Am Salman]

yes you are generalizing and enforcing your own view and opinion on all 6 billion plus humans on the planet. spectacularly ignorant and arrogant that is. thats not a forum smiley as you know so youre also being disingenuous and to call people crazy is also discriminatory and insensitive, so youre a total hypocrite too

plenty of hetrosexual people commit suicide too , the rates are far higher in hetrosexual men on average than anyone else , often due to drugs , booze, broken families, lost access to their kids , career pressure and you barely post about the matter because its not part of your agenda.


you cant speak for all gay people and to do so is stereotypying everyone. stick to your own experience, can you change from being so judgemental and stereotyping people/

I'm talking about people who commit suicide because of their sexuality jfc

[Jordan.]

That's a bit heterophobic,to suggest a "straight" person would have no understanding that a gay person is born that way!?!:conf:

Please go ahead and explain how you'd know what a gay person feels then!?!:conf:

[the truth]

He didn't have to express hatred - he expressed enough through his homophobic views thanks. Oh and as a gay man I think this description of homophobia is about right...

'Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, may be based on irrational fear, and is sometimes related to religious beliefs.'

what nonsense. Ive read more hatred of hetrosexual men on here than any homophobia....in fact bashing hetro males is a national sport. I suppose it will be banned one day but only when we think of a word for it....manphobia.....we cant even called farmers sheep shaggers any more lol

[Benjamin]

He didn't have to express hatred - he expressed enough through his homophobic views thanks. Oh and as a gay man I think this description of homophobia is about right...

'Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, may be based on irrational fear, and is sometimes related to religious beliefs.'

Yes, thanks for giving me wikipedia's description of homophobia. Homophobia is seen in different levels depending upon the person. I am gay and do not see it as homophobic. I do not need a wiki paragraph telling me otherwise.

[the truth]

Please go ahead and explain how you'd know what a gay person feels then!?!:conf:

how would you know how every lesbian, bi sexual, gay man on planet earth thinks?

[chuff me dizzy]

Please go ahead and explain how you'd know what a gay person feels then!?!:conf:

Youve been doing that all night

[joeysteele]

He did himself no favours tonight by what he said ,but thats not my argument Joey its his right to say it that i think where the argument lies ,I loath and kick and scream against the PC brigade and always will ,no one has a right to tell me,or anyone else what they are allowed to say or think ,they can tell you they dont agree with what you said and then it stops there, to carry on after that is arrogance

I hate the pc brigade too Chuff.
You are right in that he did himself no favours at all tonight.

[Macie Lightfoot]

Youve been doing that all night

So have you :joker:

[reece(:]

He equated being gay to being handicapped I have no time for anyone who believes you can be entitled to say that

Eww, so disappointing... yet another one in there living in the dark ages. If he didn't get a formal warning, he deserved one.

[the truth]

I'm talking about people who commit suicide because of their sexuality jfc

So you ignore other suicides? you dont think theres lots of other reasons why they commit suicide? why dont you show as much concern for the mass male suicides worldwide for all men, including hetrosexual ones?

if you are sincere then dont you think allowing some conversation will enhance our understanding ? or do you advocate outlawing all opinions all discussions the way big brother did tonight/?

[the truth]

Eww, so disappointing... yet another one in there living in the dark ages. If he didn't get a formal warning, he deserved one.

he didnt do that, poster is lying to you

[the truth]

So have you :joker:

no chuff hasnt actually

[SoBig]

Some people are different. I know a kid who says he was gay all his life and was born that way. He liked guys from the start. I know a girl who was straight throughout her life then in college experimented with girls and is now back dating a guy and swears she isn't gay and was just trying it out.

So I do think its a choice for some people and for others it isn't.

[MeMyselfAndI]

So you ignore other suicides? you dont think theres lots of other reasons why they commit suicide? why dont you show as much concern for the mass male suicides worldwide for all men, including hetrosexual ones?

if you are sincere then dont you think allowing some conversation will enhance our understanding ? or do you advocate outlawing all opinions all discussions the way big brother did tonight/?

young gay teens are 8x more likely too commit suicide than the average person

[Macie Lightfoot]

Some people are different. I know a kid who says he was gay all his life and was born that way. He liked guys from the start. I know a girl who was straight throughout her life then in college experimented with girls and is now back dating a guy and swears she isn't gay and was just trying out.

So I do think its a choice for some people and for others it isn't.

Experimenting is exactly what you said, experimenting.

[JTM45]

it makes perfect sense youre either in denial or lack the intellect to work it out.

If it makes you feel better about yourself then yes, i'm deeply in denial but i'm far too stupid to figure out just what it is i'm in denial about!
Your supreme intelligence, wit and repartee is so far beyond my comprehension that i feel insignificant in your virtual presence! :hugesmile:

[Northern Monkey]

Punishing someone for expressing their opinion is WRONG,Wether that opinion is right or wrong.It is fine to disagree with it and state why you disagree with it but silencing peoples opinions in what's supposed to be a democratic society is the worst thing you can do to surppress a debate on any issue,The society we live in which allows freedom of speech is the same society which allows people to be openly gay/straight/religious etc.Society seems to struggle with these issues currently.I believe in the future we will all learn to respect each others lifestyles and opinions even if we disagree with them and able to discuss them freely and openly :)

[the truth]

young gay teens are 8x more likely too commit suicide than the average person

maybe because people like the radical left here and the PC brigade and big brother have outlawed us ever discussing the issue ? theyre actually making the situation infintely worse

[chuff me dizzy]

So you ignore other suicides? you dont think theres lots of other reasons why they commit suicide? why dont you show as much concern for the mass male suicides worldwide for all men, including hetrosexual ones?

if you are sincere then dont you think allowing some conversation will enhance our understanding ? or do you advocate outlawing all opinions all discussions the way big brother did tonight/?

You are right,You have tormented people in all walks of life, not every straight person is happy as Larry, its silly to single out gay people who kill themselves ,Pain and hurt ,happens to ALL people ,not just gay people

[Macie Lightfoot]

You are right,You have tormented people in all walks of life, not every straight person is happy as Larry, its silly to single out gay people who kill themselves ,Pain and hurt ,happens to ALL people ,not just gay people

I thought it didn't happen to gay people at all since "that's a thing of the past?"

[sampvt]

young gay teens are 8x more likely too commit suicide than the average person

You are doing young gays no favours by stating that because it infers they are mentally unstable or that Evanders statement could be right, according to your post. Please proof read first.

[the truth]

If it makes you feel better about yourself then yes, i'm deeply in denial but i'm far too stupid to figure out just what it is i'm in denial about!
Your supreme intelligence, wit and repartee is so far beyond my comprehension that i feel insignificant in your virtual presence! :hugesmile:

sarcasm is the lowest form of wit zzzzzzzz

now try and concentrate for longer sentences and you may learn something
freedom of speech is a good thing, a great thing.....remeber ali in the 1970s he wanted seperatism based on HIS experiences....it was discussed and debated and now years later we see seperatism was not the way....yet ali was and is a good man living in a nation that outlawed the black man eating a meal in his hometown living in poverty in many parts , there were endless lynchings racist cops, then the government wanted him to fight the vietnamese ? fight for what?

so according to the PC brigade in this country the way forward is to ban all conversation. 1 wrong word on twitter creates a meltdown. its mindless

these issues must be discussed the way ali bravely discussed his issues in his time. thats the way we progress

[Me. I Am Salman]

So you ignore other suicides? you dont think theres lots of other reasons why they commit suicide? why dont you show as much concern for the mass male suicides worldwide for all men, including hetrosexual ones?

if you are sincere then dont you think allowing some conversation will enhance our understanding ? or do you advocate outlawing all opinions all discussions the way big brother did tonight/?

is there something actually wrong with you? like do you even realise how ******ing random and ridiculous you're being? I'm talking SPECIFICALLY about people who commit suicide because of being gay, and saying if who they were attracted to was a choice they obviously wouldn't need resort to that. That's all I said, I didn't say anything about having different levels of compassion for different people and I didn't once say sexuality is the only reason why people kill themselves

[erinp5]

Rylan Clark
the impartial presenter...not



Everyone is entitled to their opinion... And as a presenter I legally remain unbiased. HOWEVER what evander just said, was disgusting.



The thing is , I genuinely don't think evander thinks what he's saying is offensive. Which comes down to his upbringing and religion....



And as I've said, religion , upbringing etc shapes us all for life. Just so sad to think the fact I'm in love with a man means I'm 'broken'




Everyone's entitled to their opinion,as much as fantastic charities like @stonewalluk campaign, some people think us 'gays' need to be fixed



And now I've said my piece, on with the rest of the series. Each to their own x



But as I say each to their own, we all have our opinions. And are all entitled to them. Off to bed now with my BOYfriend. Night night x

[Jordan.]

You are doing young gays no favours by stating that because it infers they are mentally unstable or that Evanders statement could be right, according to your post. Please proof read first.

flop logic, they become mentally unstable because of opinions like Evanders.

[MeMyselfAndI]

You are doing young gays no favours by stating that because it infers they are mentally unstable or that Evanders statement could be right, according to your post. Please proof read first.

No, It proves homophobes like Evander that decide too air these opinions cause damage too other people and cause them too feel isolated & worried, as there are many homophobes out there.

[SoBig]

Experimenting is exactly what you said, experimenting.
She was still choosing to be gay.

[Mystic Mock]

Imo freedom of speech should not be stamped out, especially on a show like Big Brother that had Conor threaten to rape a woman and not do anything whatsoever.

Btw I do not agree with Evander's opinion.

[the truth]

No, It proves homophobes like Evander that decide too air these opinions cause damage too other people and cause them too feel isolated & worried, as there are many homophobes out there.

the hetrophobes do the same to hetro men too....the amount of male bashing and male hate in th emedia and on this website outweighs gay bashing by 1000 to 1

[the truth]

Imo freedom of speech should not be stamped out, especially on a show like Big Brother that had Conor threaten to rape a woman and not do anything whatsoever.

Btw I do not agree with Evander's opinion.

lying again. he was kicked out.

[Macie Lightfoot]

She was still choosing to be gay.

No, she was choosing to experiment with women.

[Vicky.]

lying again. he was kicked out.

If you mean conor, he wasnt kicked out. He chose to walk with 50k of the prize money. He got no punishment for what he did at all

[Me. I Am Salman]

She was still choosing to be gay.

No she was choosing to have gay sex, not choosing her feelings. Is that really ****ing hard to distinguish

[sampvt]

the hetrophobes do the same to hetro men too....the amount of male bashing and male hate in th emedia and on this website outweighs gay bashing by 1000 to 1

so true. I feel like a weirdo because I have had one woman since I was 14 and in 2 yrs that's 50 yrs of bliss.

[erinp5]

lying again. he was kicked out.

Conor left with 50k

[JTM45]

If you mean conor, he wasnt kicked out. He chose to walk with 50k of the prize money. He got no punishment for what he did at all

That was definitely one of BB's worst mistakes in my opinion!
Considering the warnings some people have had for far less he should have been ejected. If it was just one incident maybe a warning would have sufficed but he pretty much waged a campaign against her.
He was one of the most disgusting BB housemates ever in my opinion.:yuk:

[reece(:]

he didnt do that, poster is lying to you
No why are YOU lying, I've seen the show, read the transcript...

[Mystic Mock]

lying again. he was kicked out.

With £50,000

[JTM45]

No why are YOU lying, I've seen the show, read the transcript...

He did exactly what the original poster claimed Reece, no doubt about it.

[Northern Monkey]

JUST REMEMBER.This society that allows us to the freedom of our speech/opinions is the very same society which allows people to be openly gay in public/gay marriage/hold religious beliefs.We are'nt in an oppressive regime(yet anyway).If it were'nt for freedom of speech this possibly would'nt be the case,Once you start telling people what they are allowed to say/think,It is a slippery slope and could turn out bad for everybody!Evander has as much right to his opinion as a gay person has to his/her opinion.We all need to learn to respect that.

[Seanbon]

Please go ahead and explain how you'd know what a gay person feels then!?!:conf:

My sister is gay,as are my two best friends,one male and one female,and I have had many conversations with them,and others,about their feelings! And being an intelligent being I can empathise with them,and understand their feelings!?!

[Mystic Mock]

JUST REMEMBER.This society that allows us to the freedom of our speech/opinions is the very same society which allows people to be openly gay in public/gay marriage/hold religious beliefs.We are'nt in an oppressive regime(yet anyway).If it were'nt for freedom of speech this possibly would'nt be the case,Once you start telling people what they are allowed to say/think,It is a slippery slope and could turn out bad for everybody!Evander has as much right to his opinion as a gay person has to his/her opinion.We all need to learn to respect that.

Agreed, if you don't like Evander's opinion just don't vote for him to win or stay.

[Northern Monkey]

Agreed, if you don't like Evander's opinion just don't vote for him to win or stay.

Exactly :) It is our choice!

[the truth]

JUST REMEMBER.This society that allows us to the freedom of our speech/opinions is the very same society which allows people to be openly gay in public/gay marriage/hold religious beliefs.We are'nt in an oppressive regime(yet anyway).If it were'nt for freedom of speech this possibly would'nt be the case,Once you start telling people what they are allowed to say/think,It is a slippery slope and could turn out bad for everybody!Evander has as much right to his opinion as a gay person has to his/her opinion.We all need to learn to respect that.

superbly put, brilliant in fact

[Jack_]

I'm astounded by some of the ignorance in this thread. I left for what, an hour? And I've returned to read some truly bizarre things.

Let's get one thing straight [lol pun] - you do not chose your sexuality. How difficult can this concept be to understand? If you are a man and you are sexually attracted to men, see a man and think he's attractive, wanna stick your dick in him...you are gay. Whether you go on to marry a woman and have kids with a woman or not, you are gay. You have not chosen to be straight, you have chosen (or rather been coerced into it as a result of being brought up in a homophobic environment that has left you scared and/or in denial) to suppress your true sexuality. That's it. That is not a choice to be straight, because you are gay.

Now, once again back onto the Evander subject - yes, he is perfectly entitled to his (wrong, might I add) opinion, that is after all a right given to you in a society which has freedom of speech. But he's on a UK television show broadcast on a terrestrial network which has a couple of million viewers each night, and funnily enough Channel 5 have a brand to protect. Views like that are offensive to some people, and as such they have to cover their backs. If Evander wishes to express such opinions in the presence of his God loving friends, then that's his prerogative. Similarly if he were to have such a discussion in a pub with someone he'd just met, then he's entitled to do so. But he's on a TV show and in case people hadn't realised, he will have had made clear to him before, by both the producers and his agent(s) - that expressing such potentially controversial or left-field opinions could offend viewers, and are topics to avoid discussing. Luisa even tried to stop him in his tracks, but he didn't listen to her. He was not given a formal warning, so those up in arms about that need to seriously calm down. But he was reminded that expressing such views could offend some viewers, which is true and makes such a reprimanding justifiable.

As I've said earlier, I'm glad this discussion was broadcast because these kind of opinions being highlighted in society will only eventually seek to eradicate them as they are challenged and ironed out as we progress as a nation. These debates have to happen, but I'm afraid the right to freedom of speech doesn't mean that Channel 5 are just going to let this one be brushed under the carpet.

[Jordan.]

My sister is gay,as are my two best friends,one male and one female,and I have had many conversations with them,and others,about their feelings! And being an intelligent being I can empathise with them,and understand their feelings!?!

and they all told you it was a choice they made?

[Mystic Mock]

I'm astounded by some of the ignorance in this thread. I left for what, an hour? And I've returned to read some truly bizarre things.

Let's get one thing straight [lol pun] - you do not chose your sexuality. How difficult can this concept be to understand? If you are a man and you are sexually attracted to men, see a man and think he's attractive, wanna stick your dick in him...you are gay. Whether you go on to marry a woman and have kids with a woman or not, you are gay. You have not chosen to be straight, you have chosen (or rather been coerced into it as a result of being brought up in a homophobic environment that has left you scared and/or in denial) to suppress your true sexuality. That's it. That is not a choice to be straight, because you are gay.

Now, once again back onto the Evander subject - yes, he is perfectly entitled to his (wrong, might I add) opinion, that is after all a right given to you in a society which has freedom of speech. But he's on a UK television show broadcast on a terrestrial network which has a couple of million viewers each night, and funnily enough Channel 5 have a brand to protect. Views like that are offensive to some people, and as such they have to cover their backs. If Evander wishes to express such opinions in the presence of his God loving friends, then that's his prerogative. Similarly if he were to have such a discussion in a pub with someone he'd just met, then he's entitled to do so. But he's on a TV show and in case people hadn't realised, he will have had made clear to him before, by both the producers and his agent(s) - that expressing such potentially controversial or left-field opinions could offend viewers, and are topics to avoid discussing. Luisa even tried to stop him in his tracks, but he didn't listen to her. He was not given a formal warning, so those up in arms about that need to seriously calm down. But he was reminded that expressing such views could offend some viewers, which is true and makes such a reprimanding justifiable.

As I've said earlier, I'm glad this discussion was broadcast because these kind of opinions being highlighted in society will only eventually seek to eradicate them as they are challenged and ironed out as we progress as a nation. These debates have to happen, but I'm afraid the right to freedom of speech doesn't mean that Channel 5 are just going to let this one be brushed under the carpet.

That actually makes a man bisexual.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Havent seen it yet but im hoping he doesn't get a warning.

This is what the show needs, real views that get people talking.

Hes Christian and that's how he feels so...

[the truth]

I'm astounded by some of the ignorance in this thread. I left for what, an hour? And I've returned to read some truly bizarre things.

Let's get one thing straight [lol pun] - you do not chose your sexuality. How difficult can this concept be to understand? If you are a man and you are sexually attracted to men, see a man and think he's attractive, wanna stick your dick in him...you are gay. Whether you go on to marry a woman and have kids with a woman or not, you are gay. You have not chosen to be straight, you have chosen (or rather been coerced into it as a result of being brought up in a homophobic environment that has left you scared and/or in denial) to suppress your true sexuality. That's it. That is not a choice to be straight, because you are gay.

Now, once again back onto the Evander subject - yes, he is perfectly entitled to his (wrong, might I add) opinion, that is after all a right given to you in a society which has freedom of speech. But he's on a UK television show broadcast on a terrestrial network which has a couple of million viewers each night, and funnily enough Channel 5 have a brand to protect. Views like that are offensive to some people, and as such they have to cover their backs. If Evander wishes to express such opinions in the presence of his God loving friends, then that's his prerogative. Similarly if he were to have such a discussion in a pub with someone he'd just met, then he's entitled to do so. But he's on a TV show and in case people hadn't realised, he will have had made clear to him before, by both the producers and his agent(s) - that expressing such potentially controversial or left-field opinions could offend viewers, and are topics to avoid discussing. Luisa even tried to stop him in his tracks, but he didn't listen to her. He was not given a formal warning, so those up in arms about that need to seriously calm down. But he was reminded that expressing such views could offend some viewers, which is true and makes such a reprimanding justifiable.

As I've said earlier, I'm glad this discussion was broadcast because these kind of opinions being highlighted in society will only eventually seek to eradicate them as they are challenged and ironed out as we progress as a nation. These debates have to happen, but I'm afraid the right to freedom of speech doesn't mean that Channel 5 are just going to let this one be brushed under the carpet.

so youre speaking for all 6 billion people on earth about what sexuality they are whether they choose it or not? what utter nonsense. speak for yourself and then try and listen to others who all have different experiences views education feelings individuality. youre PC drivel is making things worse. we dont need conversation banned we need ti encouraged

[Me. I Am Salman]

That actually makes a man bisexual.

no it doesn't. People in here amazingly can't grasp the fact that feelings are not the same thing as actions

[Seanbon]

JUST REMEMBER.This society that allows us to the freedom of our speech/opinions is the very same society which allows people to be openly gay in public/gay marriage/hold religious beliefs.We are'nt in an oppressive regime(yet anyway).If it were'nt for freedom of speech this possibly would'nt be the case,Once you start telling people what they are allowed to say/think,It is a slippery slope and could turn out bad for everybody!Evander has as much right to his opinion as a gay person has to his/her opinion.We all need to learn to respect that.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

[Northern Monkey]

Evanders opinions may be narrow minded and blinkered but so the same can be said for some of the 'politically correct' opinions also,Both sides need to empathise more and respect each others beliefs.

[Mystic Mock]

no it doesn't. People in here amazingly can't grasp the fact that feelings are not the same thing as actions

Guys are not like girls, we have to get sexually turned on to the person to make us the sexuality that we are, so if a guy is attracted to guys and girls and has had relationships with both of them then they are bisexual, that you can't argue about because it's a fact.

Btw with the girls part I meant that I tend to find that girls have it slightly easier to experiment with the same gender.

[Saph]

I didn't watch but sod the whole 'it's his opinion' thing, sounds like plain old ignorance to me

[Jack_]

That actually makes a man bisexual.

No it doesn't? Homosexuals that marry a member of the opposite sex and/or have kids with them do so because they are suppressing their sexuality either because they're scared of the repercussions that admitting their true feelings would hold, such as being outcasted or disowned by their family and friends, or they are in denial for the very same reason. Gay people that grow up in environments were homosexuality is still seen as a sin and as something that either doesn't exist or is dirty or shouldn't happen etc etc often deny to themselves what they know to be true or simply just lie so that they don't have to face the potential consequences. That's why gay men and women go onto have relationships and marriages and children with members of the opposite sex, not because they are bisexual, because they are suppressing their sexuality.

If they were bisexual then they would be sexually attracted to both men and women, meaning any marriage would be a legitimate one that is based upon genuine love and sexual attraction - not something that's been faked to divert attention away from the fact that they actually are only attracted to members of the same sex. There is a big difference here.

so youre speaking for all 6 billion people on earth about what sexuality they are whether they choose it or not? what utter nonsense. speak for yourself and then try and listen to others who all have different experiences views education feelings individuality. youre PC drivel is making things worse. we dont need conversation banned we need ti encouraged

What the ******? Where did I say that I want conversation banned? The last ****ing paragraph of my post you just quoted said the complete opposite, as did another post I made to you in this thread. I've actually made it clear that the conversation has been a beneficial one, why are you making things up that I haven't even said?

no it doesn't. People in here amazingly can't grasp the fact that feelings are not the same thing as actions

I'm losing the will to live reading this thread, honestly.

[JTM45]

Evanders opinions may be narrow minded and blinkered but so the same can be said for some of the 'politically correct' opinions also,Both sides need to empathise more and respect each others beliefs.

I agree that everyone is and should be entitled to their own opinion but respect is something that is earned and how can you be expected to respect the beliefs of someone else that you find completely disgusting ?
It's like saying that people should have respected Hitler's beliefs and empathized with them!

[Seanbon]

and they all told you it was a choice they made?

Sorry you're getting me mixed up with someone else!! I have stated from the beginning that gay people are born gay?!?:conf:

[Jordan.]

Guys are not like girls, we have to get sexually turned on to the person to make us the sexuality that we are, so if a guy is attracted to guys and girls and has had relationships with both of them then they are bisexual, that you can't argue about because it's a fact.

A gay person can have straight sex and still be gay.

[Mystic Mock]

I didn't watch but sod the whole 'it's his opinion' thing, sounds like plain old ignorance to me

It is ignorant of him but you can't want freedom of speech for gay rights, equal rights for women and men, and stuff like that and then stamp down hard on someone for just saying that being gay is immoral.

Now if he had attacked a gay person in the house then I would say throw him out, but at the end of the day words are words, they only can harm you to a certain extent.

[the truth]

Havent seen it yet but im hoping he doesn't get a warning.

This is what the show needs, real views that get people talking.

Hes Christian and that's how he feels so...

it was a warning.

[sampvt]

No it doesn't? Homosexuals that marry a member of the opposite sex and/or have kids with them do so because they are suppressing their sexuality either because they're scared of the repercussions that admitting their true feelings would hold, such as being outcasted or disowned by their family and friends, or they are in denial for the very same reason. Gay people that grow up in environments were homosexuality is still seen as a sin and as something that either doesn't exist or is dirty or shouldn't happen etc etc often deny to themselves what they know to be true or simply just lie so that they don't have to face the potential consequences. That's why gay men and women go onto have relationships and marriages and children with members of the opposite sex, not because they are bisexual, because they are suppressing their sexuality.

If they were bisexual then they would be sexually attracted to both men and women, meaning any marriage would be a legitimate one that is based upon genuine love and sexual attraction - not something that's been faked to divert attention away from the fact that they actually are only attracted to members of the same sex. There is a big difference here.



What the ******? Where did I say that I want conversation banned? The last ****ing paragraph of my post you just quoted said the complete opposite, as did another post I made to you in this thread. I've actually made it clear that the conversation has been a beneficial one, why are you making things up that I haven't even said?



I'm losing the will to live reading this thread, honestly.

Jack don't top yourself son. A lot of people are getting on at you because you talk like a middle aged psychiatrist, but in truth your only just back from a paper round and some people have a hard time taking advice from a young and inexperienced lad. Don't despair, you will be understood one day but you need to shorten your posts, I am growing a beard reading your retorts.

[the truth]

no it doesn't. People in here amazingly can't grasp the fact that feelings are not the same thing as actions

its you who cant grasp the fact feelings actions sexuality desires are different for every single person on earth ....so to try and say all hetro or all gay people dont choose this or that is utter drivel.......everyone is different

[Saph]

It is ignorant of him but you can't want freedom of speech for gay rights, equal rights for women and men, and stuff like that and then stamp down hard on someone for just saying that being gay is immoral.

Now if he had attacked a gay person in the house then I would say throw him out, but at the end of the day words are words, they only can harm you to a certain extent.

I know what you mean but there are some opinions best kept to yourself (or himself in this case)

[Benjamin]

I know what you mean but there are some opinions best kept to yourself (or himself in this case)

He was asked in fairness.

[Mystic Mock]

No it doesn't? Homosexuals that marry a member of the opposite sex and/or have kids with them do so because they are suppressing their sexuality either because they're scared of the repercussions that admitting their true feelings would hold, such as being outcasted or disowned by their family and friends, or they are in denial for the very same reason. Gay people that grow up in environments were homosexuality is still seen as a sin and as something that either doesn't exist or is dirty or shouldn't happen etc etc often deny to themselves what they know to be true or simply just lie so that they don't have to face the potential consequences. That's why gay men and women go onto have relationships and marriages and children with members of the opposite sex, not because they are bisexual, because they are suppressing their sexuality.

If they were bisexual then they would be sexually attracted to both men and women, meaning any marriage would be a legitimate one that is based upon genuine love and sexual attraction - not something that's been faked to divert attention away from the fact that they actually are only attracted to members of the same sex. There is a big difference here.



What the ******? Where did I say that I want conversation banned? The last ****ing paragraph of my post you just quoted said the complete opposite, as did another post I made to you in this thread. I've actually made it clear that the conversation has been a beneficial one, why are you making things up that I haven't even said?



I'm losing the will to live reading this thread, honestly.

Tbf does that even happen much in the UK anymore? People in this country are a lot more tolerant of gay people nowadays than they was say 20 to 30 years ago.

And anyway I'm surprised at you Jack as you normally agree with freedom of speech and stuff that get the show publicity to be let off otherwise it's CBBC, and as I've said in a previous post he hasn't attacked a gay person physically so I don't get the warning from Big Brother when people like Conor got away with threatening to rape a woman on national TV, and Charlotte pissing and ****ting on the bed which can cause health & safety risks.

[Seanbon]

I agree that everyone is and should be entitled to their own opinion but respect is something that is earned and how can you be expected to respect the beliefs of someone else that you find completely disgusting ?
It's like saying that people should have respected Hitler's beliefs and empathized with them!

They do say that once Hitler or the Nazi's are mentioned in a debate,it has run it's course!?! night!!:xyxwave:

[the truth]

A gay person can have straight sex and still be gay.

and a straight person can have gay sex and still be straight. so what? everyones different, but according to you no one chooses to do anything and anyone who suggests we have sexual choices is a homophobe and should be banned from an opinion? insane

[Mystic Mock]

I agree that everyone is and should be entitled to their own opinion but respect is something that is earned and how can you be expected to respect the beliefs of someone else that you find completely disgusting ?
It's like saying that people should have respected Hitler's beliefs and empathized with them!

Hitler killed thousands of Jews and millions of people as a whole, how can you even compare the two?

[Northern Monkey]

I agree that everyone is and should be entitled to their own opinion but respect is something that is earned and how can you be expected to respect the beliefs of someone else that you find completely disgusting ?
It's like saying that people should have respected Hitler's beliefs and empathized with them!

Very good point!Now just read exactly what you just wrote back and stand in Evanders shoes(apart from the Hitler bit,I don't think Evander has murdered anyone)You see what i'm saying?

[Saph]

He was asked in fairness.

Oh :p idk then

[Jack_]

it was a warning.

NO IT WASN'T A WARNING DO YOU PEOPLE NOT WATCH THE SHOW OR READ TRANSCRIPTS BACK

It was a reminder, when they give a warning every single time they recite pretty much these exact words 'and as such, Big Brother is left with no choice but to issue you with a formal warning. Anymore actions like these may lead to your removal from the Big Brother house, do you understand?'

They said no such thing to Evander. Just reminded him of the rules that he was given before he entered, a summary of what he said in the conversation with Luisa and then a reminder that the expression of such views will not be tolerated as they are potentially offensive to the viewing public. No mention of any 'formal warning' whatsoever.

And for proof, here is the actual transcript:

“Before you entered the Big Brother house, the rules regarding unacceptable language and behaviour were explained to you. Last night, in a conversation with Luisa, you expressed the view that being gay was not normal and that it could be fixed,” explained Big Brother.

“While Big Brother understands these are the views you hold, they aren’t the views that are held by a large section of society and expressing these views will be extremely offensive to many people. Do you understand why?”

“Yeah I understand why, I forgot about the thing,” Evander answered. “I was just telling her my opinion, but it’s not like I was gonna mention it to anybody else, that was just our conversation.”

“Big Brother does not tolerate the use of offensive language and must therefore warn you to consider very carefully the effect expressing such views may have and the harm and offence you may cause by repeating these views inside the house,” the all-seeing eye continued. “Do you understand, Evander?”

“Okay then,” said Evander. “Yes I do.”

And please, before you inevitably point out the word 'warn', that is not an official formal warning that they give out.

[JTM45]

Hes Christian and that's how he feels so...

Christianity and ignorance often seem to go hand in hand.

The warning thing was obviously C5 covering their asses in case of any negative feedback. They probably love the fact that he said it because they know that it's highly likely to bring more attention to the show. No press is bad press kinda' thing!

[reece(:]

Nice to see Jack educating everyonehttp://i.minus.com/ibbsyIwtuF2A38.gif

[the truth]

Nice to see Jack educating everyonehttp://i.minus.com/ibbsyIwtuF2A38.gif

lol hes not even educating himself with his hypocritcal nonsense

[sampvt]

Nice to see Jack educating everyonehttp://i.minus.com/ibbsyIwtuF2A38.gif

Not everyone sadly. There are still some of us that have opinions and views that cant and wont be swayed by a war and peace posting.

[Jordan.]

and a straight person can have gay sex and still be straight. so what? everyones different, but according to you no one chooses to do anything and anyone who suggests we have sexual choices is a homophobe and should be banned from an opinion? insane

I said no one chooses their sexuality which is a fact & I never called anyone a homophobe I said it's ignorant to think otherwise, bye now.

[Mystic Mock]

Christianity and ignorance often seem to go hand in hand.

The warning thing was obviously C5 covering their asses in case of any negative feedback. They probably love the fact that he said it because they know that it's highly likely to bring more attention to the show. No press is bad press kinda' thing!

Now that could be seen as religious intolerance and if you was on Big Brother you would get into trouble for that, do you think that is fair? I wouldn't as you are only expressing your opinion.

[Redway]

To be fair, he wasn't even given an official warning and was only told that his views are potentially extremely offensive to many (and rightly so). Totally justified, IMO.

[Jordan.]

He was asked in fairness.

He wasn't actually asked his opinion he just came out with "That ain’t normal" and went from there.

[the truth]

I said no one chooses their sexuality which is a fact & I never called anyone a homophobe I said it's ignorant to think otherwise, bye now.

nothing is a fact and youre trying to speak for the whole world again which is nonsense

incodentally this legend who is now being destroyed for simply answering a question with a genuine answer has donated millions to charities including struggling kids and disabled people. actions speak louder than words

[Seanbon]

Christianity and ignorance often seem to go hand in hand.

The warning thing was obviously C5 covering their asses in case of any negative feedback. They probably love the fact that he said it because they know that it's highly likely to bring more attention to the show. No press is bad press kinda' thing!

I think you'll find most organised religions are intolerant to what they don't deem to be "normal",not just Christianity!!! Evander's viewpoint would get alot of support at the local Mosque too??:sad:

[Jack_]

Jack don't top yourself son. A lot of people are getting on at you because you talk like a middle aged psychiatrist, but in truth your only just back from a paper round and some people have a hard time taking advice from a young and inexperienced lad. Don't despair, you will be understood one day but you need to shorten your posts, I am growing a beard reading your retorts.

In all honesty Sam I'm really bored of these petty, juvenile digs at my age which for a start are actually factually incorrect, but they're also pretty unnecessary. For a man of your age I thought you'd be able to refrain from engaging in such needless behaviour. Why you can't reply to my posts without feeling the need to insult me is beyond me to tell you the truth, you ask and expect people to respect people that are older than them yet you are always the one that throws digs at me? I'm tired of it to be honest, you should be above that. But oh well.

And plenty of other people in this thread and on this forum seem to understand me and the terminology I use, so...

lol hes not even educating himself with his hypocritcal nonsense

And you're not educating anyone let alone yourself by refusing to read what has been pointed out to you on several occasions now - Evander was not given a warning. And I have at no point in this thread said that the conversation they had should have been 'banned' or not broadcast, in fact I've said the opposite. So stop trying to make out otherwise.

[the truth]

He wasn't actually asked his opinion he just came out with "That ain’t normal" and went from there.

she started the discussion , he was asked about gay people in sport and how more should come out as gay and she said its normal ....was hesupposed to sit there like a dummy and say nothing? she was having a go at him yesterday for not talking ........now he does talk and gives a genuine opinion to continue the chat , hes destroyed for it. if she has the right to say homosexuality is natural and fine, why doesnt he have the right to say he doesnt agree?

[the truth]

In all honesty Sam I'm really bored of these petty, juvenile digs at my age which for a start are actually factually incorrect, but they're also pretty unnecessary. For a man of your age I thought you'd be able to refrain from engaging in such needless behaviour. Why you can't reply to my posts without feeling the need to insult me is beyond me to tell you the truth, you ask and expect people to respect people that are older than them yet you are always the one that throws digs at me? I'm tired of it to be honest, you should be above that. But oh well.

And plenty of other people in this thread and on this forum seem to understand me and the terminology I use, so...



And you're not educating anyone let alone yourself by refusing to read what has been pointed out to you on several occasions now - Evander was not given a warning. And I have at no point in this thread said that the conversation they had should have been 'banned' or not broadcast, in fact I've said the opposite. So stop trying to make out otherwise.

of course he was warned? what are you on about?

[Seanbon]

I said no one chooses their sexuality which is a fact & I never called anyone a homophobe I said it's ignorant to think otherwise, bye now.

Do I not get an apology for your misinterpretation of my opinion??

[sampvt]

nothing is a fact and youre trying to speak for the whole world again which is nonsense

incodentally this legend who is now being destroyed for simply answering a question with a genuine answer has donated millions to charities including struggling kids and disabled people. actions speak louder than words

Ah but has he donated to gay rights or greenpeace, that's the question. Come on, he offered a personal view that was not aimed at anyone, he simply engaged in a convo with a friend and probably forgot the cameras were on him but one thing strikes me......did she not allow him to fry himself. Surely she should have said, stop there, this might get you into hot water or did she want that to happen. It is a game after all and he is a big player.

[the truth]

I think you'll find most organised religions are intolerant to what they don't deem to be "normal",not just Christianity!!! Evander's viewpoint would get alot of support at the local Mosque too??:sad:

generalizing about billions of Christians is just as bad as generalzing about all gay people

[Jack_]

of course he was warned? what are you on about?

wtf no he wasn't and I've now explained this to you twice, why are you not reading what I'm posting? :conf:

Read this post back and tell me he was given a formal warning, because he wasn't. That's it. No discussion to be had;

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6591100&postcount=475

[sampvt]

In all honesty Sam I'm really bored of these petty, juvenile digs at my age which for a start are actually factually incorrect, but they're also pretty unnecessary. For a man of your age I thought you'd be able to refrain from engaging in such needless behaviour. Why you can't reply to my posts without feeling the need to insult me is beyond me to tell you the truth, you ask and expect people to respect people that are older than them yet you are always the one that throws digs at me? I'm tired of it to be honest, you should be above that. But oh well.

And plenty of other people in this thread and on this forum seem to understand me and the terminology I use, so...



And you're not educating anyone let alone yourself by refusing to read what has been pointed out to you on several occasions now - Evander was not given a warning. And I have at no point in this thread said that the conversation they had should have been 'banned' or not broadcast, in fact I've said the opposite. So stop trying to make out otherwise.

Sorry if I am wrong but didn't you say that you were a teenager last year around 17 or something. Please correct me but you don't age 10 years in 12 months.

[the truth]

Ah but has he donated to gay rights or greenpeace, that's the question. Come on, he offered a personal view that was not aimed at anyone, he simply engaged in a convo with a friend and probably forgot the cameras were on him but one thing strikes me......did she not allow him to fry himself. Surely she should have said, stop there, this might get you into hot water or did she want that to happen. It is a game after all and he is a big player.

she played him.....she was always going to.....she stared the chat , she did say oh we betetr not carry on the chat, but that was probably to make her look good. its all been done before. shed throw her granny under the bus for fame and fortune. she was exactly the same on the apprentice ruthless controlling manipulative disingenuous...notice how shes tried to humiliate him already in a few subtler ways....you dont speak much, take your clothes off....then the moment he starts talking she ignores him.....why did she even begin this random discussion about gay people?

[Redway]

Sorry if I am wrong but didn't you say that you were a teenager last year around 17 or something. Please correct me but you don't age 10 years in 12 months.

Young as he is Jack's a damn site more clued up on sexuality than you, clearly.

[sampvt]

wtf no he wasn't and I've now explained this to you twice, why are you not reading what I'm posting? :conf:

Read this post back and tell me he was given a formal warning, because he wasn't. That's it. No discussion to be had;

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6591100&postcount=475

watched it but they didn't air the whole interview or telling off so they could have missed the warning off and did it to save his face. who knows, none of us do so we must agree that in the face of no evidence, its a stalemate.

[the truth]

wtf no he wasn't and I've now explained this to you twice, why are you not reading what I'm posting? :conf:

Read this post back and tell me he was given a formal warning, because he wasn't. That's it. No discussion to be had;

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6591100&postcount=475

Yes he was warned Ive read what youve said and youre wrong. I dont care how many times you repeat it
no discussion to be had.

[Jack_]

Sorry if I am wrong but didn't you say that you were a teenager last year around 17 or something. Please correct me but you don't age 10 years in 12 months.

You've just said I'm almost back from my paper round and I'm afraid kids these days have them at around 13/14, I'm almost 19, so...five years is quite a difference.

But whatever, just continue to bypass all the perfectly valid points I pose to you and instead choose to insult me because of my age (as if that could ever determine who is right or wrong in a certain debate anyway lol), it's really petty. And actually if I were to do the same thing to you you would be up in arms about it, so...

[the truth]

Young as he is Jack's a damn site more clued up on sexuality than you, clearly.

clued up or brainwashed by the latest PC fads? my guess is the latter

[JTM45]

I think you'll find most organised religions are intolerant to what they don't deem to be "normal",not just Christianity!!! Evander's viewpoint would get a lot of support at the local Mosque too??:sad:

Yeah, i probably should have said 'religion' instead of narrowing it down to just the Christians!
I think Buddhism is the exception but many, myself included, wouldn't class Buddhism as a religion as much as a set of beliefs to live your life by.

Religions as a whole are responsible for so much that's wrong in the World today. I would imagine Evander's opinions probably stem from a religious background which is a very sad thing.