Mass shooting and hostages taken at gay nightclub in Orlando...

[Ninastar]

I get the feeling that even if there was solid evidence that it was because he was from ISIS, a lot of people would still refuse to believe it because they just want to use this as an excuse to hate on American gun laws.

[Ninastar]

At?

People using this thread to argue about gun law regulations. I just find it really disrespectful. Then again this is tibb so I shouldn't be surprised.

[Marsh.]

The FBI say he was.

No they don't?

[the truth]

People using this thread to argue about gun law regulations. I just find it really disrespectful. Then again this is tibb so I shouldn't be surprised. why

[Braden]

I think there have been other posts in this thread displaying a lot less respect than those who have discussed American gun laws, but I won't get into that.

I think people who have strong opinions on the anti/pro gun debate are right to debate it, but I also see why some posters want to mourn and not let the thread derail to that subject because it's such a controversial topic in itself.

[Tom4784]

I get the feeling that even if there was solid evidence that it was because he was from ISIS, a lot of people would still refuse to believe it because they just want to use this as an excuse to hate on American gun laws.

Why would the shooter having a connection to Isis in any way affect people's views on gun laws? Chances are the shooter used a gun that he purchased legally so his affiliation doesn't really matter.

I just don't want to give Isis the credit unless there's a proven link because it's what they want.

I don't think it's a bad thing that people are hating on the gun laws considering how many hundreds of lives have been taken in these all too frequent massacres alone. If there were tighter gun control then America probably wouldn't find themselves facing a new mass murder spree every few months.

Gun control works, look at the UK and Australia. We've only had one major shooting incident since Dunblane and the gun control laws were put in place and Australia hasn't had any since 1996 when they suffered a similar crime and introduced their own gun control laws. You can't blame people for wanting things to change, you can't blame people for being annoyed at innocent people dying because the powers that be refuse to change the status quo.

[empire]

well donald trump, warned and predicted, what will happen, and its happened, and the lefties are closing their eyes and putting there fingers in there ears, and who they attack are not the dumb terrorists, but Mr Trump,

[the truth]

I think both sides are guilty here.....you have 2 massive problems conflating, namely guns and terrorism. guns kill way more than terrorists in america but both are evil. gun murders have fallen a lot since the 90s per head. but risen the last few years. the gun death rates in europe are miniscule , but several nations especially in south america are way worse than america including brazil, honduras, south africa etc

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

well donald trump, warned and predicted, what will happen, and its happened, and the lefties are closing their eyes and putting there fingers in there ears, and who they attack are not the dumb terrorists, but Mr Trump,

He didn't predict anything, it was already happening.

Btw an armed was headed to gay pride but the police stopped him. Good thing too. This happening twice in such a short sort of time would have been too much. He wasn't Muslim he was white.

[Marsh.]

But white people aren't terrorists? They're the good guys. :conf:

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

But white people aren't terrorists? They're the good guys. :conf:

Ask that idiot Trump. He's the one that asked for Obama to resign because he didn't call the Club shooting a radical Islam act. I don't even think he's mentioned the thwarted gay pride attack attempt. Just like when he went on about the Muslim wife and husband shooting but he said nothing about the White dude that shot the clinic. Sigh I loathe him and his followers.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

Owen Jones walks out after reporters downplay homophobia in this act.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/owen-jones-walks-off-sky-news-after-presenters-deflect-homophobia-behind-orlando-shooting-a7078891.html

The reporter is saying but this is not worst than the Paris attacks but that's not the point Owen was making. This clip is the equivalent of "black lives matter" and people replying with yes but All lives matter.

[Marsh.]

Owen Jones came across like a petulant child in that video to be honest.

[Shaun]

Just read something about how it's possible that some of those killed may not have been "out" to their parents, friends, or had the chance to transition, etc. and I can't think of many things more heartbreaking than having your deepest secret exposed, or journey cut short, because you've been killed out and being happy. Just hope that the families/friends either did already know and support them, or that if they didn't, there's no 'change' in their perception of their lost ones... perhaps it's morbid to consider it, but stranger things have been thought of the LGBT community.

[Liberty4eva]

Gun control works, look at the UK and Australia. We've only had one major shooting incident since Dunblane and the gun control laws were put in place and Australia hasn't had any since 1996 when they suffered a similar crime and introduced their own gun control laws. You can't blame people for wanting things to change, you can't blame people for being annoyed at innocent people dying because the powers that be refuse to change the status quo.

Gun control in the UK did not lower the homicide rate. The year 1996 was the last year that guns were legal in the UK but 2010 was the only year since then where homicide rates were less than 1996. It's true that death by guns lowered but stabbings skyrocketed.

Death by guns is the only statistic anyone on here seems to care about. No one cares about murders with other weapons. I would think that reduction in murder and homicides in general would be the true statistics that people should care about but that isn't the case.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Owen Jones came across like a petulant child in that video to be honest.

Meh. I don't blame him. They seemed determined to portray the attack as one on the West in general, rather than a specific attack on gay people. Basically telling him that he isn't more affected by this than them, just because he's gay, when to me it seems clear this attack, whether in the name of IS or not, was motivated by homophobia.

[VanessaFeltz.]

I feel very very very sorry that 50 of my dear community members have passed away. I consider LGBT community like my family so that hurt me deeply.

What needs to happen is that we need to get rid of isis thats it.

Isis attacks to everyone including muslims, it would be so easy to get rid of them if big countries do something about it but what do they do, they just say "ugh i am sorry for your loss, isis is evil" well if you dont like it then do something about it.

[Amy Jade]

I can totally understand the gun discussion surrounding this.

The murderer was deemed a threat enough by the FBI that he was banned from flying but he was able to purchase a rifle and a hand gun? that's messed up.

[lewis111]

This needs to be a time to talk about gun laws in America though
Obviously we pay our respects to the victims and send love to their friends and family but that won't prevent an act like this happening again
Something very serious has to be done and peope talking about it could increase the chance, but still my doubtful anything will change

[Northern Monkey]

I feel very very very sorry that 50 of my dear community members have passed away. I consider LGBT community like my family so that hurt me deeply.

What needs to happen is that we need to get rid of isis thats it.

Isis attacks to everyone including muslims, it would be so easy to get rid of them if big countries do something about it but what do they do, they just say "ugh i am sorry for your loss, isis is evil" well if you dont like it then do something about it.

Unfortunately they're not that easy to get rid of because even if you killed every ISIS fighter in the Middle East the ideology would still be there within the Muslim community.It will be a long battle and Islam itself will be the thing in the end that is most effective in combatting these extreme views from within.

[Northern Monkey]

This needs to be a time to talk about gun laws in America though
Obviously we pay our respects to the victims and send love to their friends and family but that won't prevent an act like this happening again
Something very serious has to be done and peope talking about it could increase the chance, but still my doubtful anything will changeChanging US gun laws won't stop terrorist attacks in Europe,Britain,Other middle eastern countries or even in America.Even if guns were harder to get then they would still easily get them or use explosives.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Unfortunately they're not that easy to get rid of because even if you killed every ISIS fighter in the Middle East the ideology would still be there within the Muslim community.It will be a long battle and Islam itself will be the thing in the end that is most effective in combatting these extreme views from within.

But still if world fought isis we would have less problems because they wouldnt have the strenght to attack. But instead we are letting them alone so they can get stronger and stronger

[lewis111]

Changing US gun laws won't stop terrorist attacks in Europe,Britain,Other middle eastern countries or even in America.Even if guns were harder to get then they would still easily get them or use explosives.

Gun laws won't stop terrorism but they can cut back on so so many killings in America
There's been 998 mass shootings in Ameroca since the sandy hook attack, and that number is probably 0 or 1 in all western gun free countries

[VanessaFeltz.]

"Lets not ban guns because some people still have guns and kill people" logic is the stupidest logic ever

[Glenn.]

People using this thread to argue about gun law regulations. I just find it really disrespectful. Then again this is tibb so I shouldn't be surprised.

It kind of goes hand in hand with each other considering the mass shooting though no?

[user104658]

I feel it's important to draw a distinction between an ISIS member and and ISIS sympathiser. So far, is sounds like this man was the latter. A "Lone Wolf" hateful individual who planned and carried out his attack on his own, driven mostly by his own personal hatred of homosexuality - a hatred that probably THEN lead him to identify with ISIS ideology. As opposed to an ISIS "member" who planned an atrocity as part of a cell under the instruction of ISIS superiors.

ISIS will take credit for anything and that's why it's important to be accurate in reporting what has actually happened... There's a REASON they want to take credit, and they should not be allowed to every time a lone psychopath decides to mention IS, Islam or Allah during their attack. It gives people the false impression that they are organising these events, which makes them more terrifying, and so achieves their goal: to spread terror.

[Ammi]

I feel it's important to draw a distinction between an ISIS member and and ISIS sympathiser. So far, is sounds like this man was the latter. A "Lone Wolf" hateful individual who planned and carried out his attack on his own, driven mostly by his own personal hatred of homosexuality - a hatred that probably THEN lead him to identify with ISIS ideology. As opposed to an ISIS "member" who planned an atrocity as part of a cell under the instruction of ISIS superiors.

ISIS will take credit for anything and that's why it's important to be accurate in reporting what has actually happened... There's a REASON they want to take credit, and they should not be allowed to every time a lone psychopath decides to mention IS, Islam or Allah during their attack. It gives people the false impression that they are organising these events, which makes them more terrifying, and so achieves their goal: to spread terror.


...although I completely agree and it's the difference between, 'pledging allegiance' to a terrorist group and being directed by them in an act of terror...I do think that maybe it'll never be known for sure because the FBI have 'cleared' him twice, I believe ..?...as having any connection with ISIS...so would they also ever admit that they completely messed up there and that he was in fact a part of ISIS...

[Nicky91]

RIP to all victims :( :(

[Crimson Dynamo]

I feel it's important to draw a distinction between an ISIS member and and ISIS sympathiser. So far, is sounds like this man was the latter. A "Lone Wolf" hateful individual who planned and carried out his attack on his own, driven mostly by his own personal hatred of homosexuality - a hatred that probably THEN lead him to identify with ISIS ideology. As opposed to an ISIS "member" who planned an atrocity as part of a cell under the instruction of ISIS superiors.

ISIS will take credit for anything and that's why it's important to be accurate in reporting what has actually happened... There's a REASON they want to take credit, and they should not be allowed to every time a lone psychopath decides to mention IS, Islam or Allah during their attack. It gives people the false impression that they are organising these events, which makes them more terrifying, and so achieves their goal: to spread terror.

and dont forget the role of religion in legitimising his hatred

[Denver]

But still if world fought isis we would have less problems because they wouldnt have the strenght to attack. But instead we are letting them alone so they can get stronger and stronger

1) there is 100s of terrorist organisations why focus on ISIS?

2) they are impossible to kill because we dont know who they are, where they are and more importantly their next step

[Ammi]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/06/13/Residents_of_San_Francisco_and_the_Bay_Area_lay_fl owers_and_supporting_mes-xlarge_trans++mcDio_4tpj7imySHL0bjl2vkAH7sQfbtOgfM 6Tx5_00.jpg
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/539752616-mourners-gather-outside-of-the-iconic-new-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=X7WJLa88Cweo9HktRLaNXjGDhahWgs7pe258JkO6wOmWmYMW SojXK8oeqpNE4sYxDPgN7XcP1cAvgujf8Xq%2boA%3d%3d
http://drop.ndtv.com/albums/NEWS/orlando-nightclub-shooting-mourners/orlandocalifornia.jpg

[Firewire]

That bottom pic is me at this thread

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://t.co/gcoAoy3vYD

Check out what The President said only last week!!

main shocking revelation is at 2.00 onwards

:shocked:

[MTVN]

I feel it's important to draw a distinction between an ISIS member and and ISIS sympathiser. So far, is sounds like this man was the latter. A "Lone Wolf" hateful individual who planned and carried out his attack on his own, driven mostly by his own personal hatred of homosexuality - a hatred that probably THEN lead him to identify with ISIS ideology. As opposed to an ISIS "member" who planned an atrocity as part of a cell under the instruction of ISIS superiors.

ISIS will take credit for anything and that's why it's important to be accurate in reporting what has actually happened... There's a REASON they want to take credit, and they should not be allowed to every time a lone psychopath decides to mention IS, Islam or Allah during their attack. It gives people the false impression that they are organising these events, which makes them more terrifying, and so achieves their goal: to spread terror.

I do agree but trying to inspire lone wolf attacks in the West is a big part of the ISIS strategy and something they explicitly encourage so just by carrying out this shooting he is sort of following instructions from ISIS commanders even if there's no direct contact

[Denver]

742224187369107456

[Smithy]

I feel it's important to draw a distinction between an ISIS member and and ISIS sympathiser. So far, is sounds like this man was the latter. A "Lone Wolf" hateful individual who planned and carried out his attack on his own, driven mostly by his own personal hatred of homosexuality - a hatred that probably THEN lead him to identify with ISIS ideology. As opposed to an ISIS "member" who planned an atrocity as part of a cell under the instruction of ISIS superiors.

ISIS will take credit for anything and that's why it's important to be accurate in reporting what has actually happened... There's a REASON they want to take credit, and they should not be allowed to every time a lone psychopath decides to mention IS, Islam or Allah during their attack. It gives people the false impression that they are organising these events, which makes them more terrifying, and so achieves their goal: to spread terror.

Exactly

[arista]

I feel it's important to draw a distinction between an ISIS member and and ISIS sympathiser. So far, is sounds like this man was the latter. A "Lone Wolf" hateful individual who planned and carried out his attack on his own, driven mostly by his own personal hatred of homosexuality - a hatred that probably THEN lead him to identify with ISIS ideology. As opposed to an ISIS "member" who planned an atrocity as part of a cell under the instruction of ISIS superiors.

ISIS will take credit for anything and that's why it's important to be accurate in reporting what has actually happened... There's a REASON they want to take credit, and they should not be allowed to every time a lone psychopath decides to mention IS, Islam or Allah during their attack. It gives people the false impression that they are organising these events, which makes them more terrifying, and so achieves their goal: to spread terror.


Yes so far, it is that

[Tom4784]

Gun control in the UK did not lower the homicide rate. The year 1996 was the last year that guns were legal in the UK but 2010 was the only year since then where homicide rates were less than 1996. It's true that death by guns lowered but stabbings skyrocketed.

Death by guns is the only statistic anyone on here seems to care about. No one cares about murders with other weapons. I would think that reduction in murder and homicides in general would be the true statistics that people should care about but that isn't the case.

It certainly lowered the rate of gun crime, we've only had one major shooting incident since so the law is working in hte way it was intended, the laws were introduced to stop another Dunblane from happening and it's mostly worked so far.

If you understood the stats you were throwing about you'd know that the Gun Control laws would never have had much of an effect on murder rates because most murders in the UK aren't committed with a gun. The number of guns per capita in the UK is very low. Like I said before, the gun laws were introduced to stop gun massacres from happening and it's worked mostly.

I'd have thought that, as an American, you would be more tired of these endless killing sprees than anyone else on here. It's kind of sad that you seem to value your guns more than the lives of your countrymen.

[Tom4784]

I feel it's important to draw a distinction between an ISIS member and and ISIS sympathiser. So far, is sounds like this man was the latter. A "Lone Wolf" hateful individual who planned and carried out his attack on his own, driven mostly by his own personal hatred of homosexuality - a hatred that probably THEN lead him to identify with ISIS ideology. As opposed to an ISIS "member" who planned an atrocity as part of a cell under the instruction of ISIS superiors.

ISIS will take credit for anything and that's why it's important to be accurate in reporting what has actually happened... There's a REASON they want to take credit, and they should not be allowed to every time a lone psychopath decides to mention IS, Islam or Allah during their attack. It gives people the false impression that they are organising these events, which makes them more terrifying, and so achieves their goal: to spread terror.

PREACH.

[Samm]

Death doll has risen to 59 :(

[Ninastar]

This will be my last post on this thread.

I don't expect any of you to understand why this has bothered me so much, but oh well. Tibbs never really been the most thoughtful of places.

I understand that some of you are passionate about the gun laws in America and I don't think anyone is denying the fact that more needs to be done to prevent things like this happening. Like not allowing a person who has been known for 'terrorist activity' and 'domestic abuse' to purchase multiple guns from a firearms store. Its unbelieveable.

But to go on and on about gun regulation, arguing with a known troll(s) for pages and pages, the general condescending language of tibb, it just made me so angry. I feel like people on here cared more about arguing and causing trouble than they did about showing respect for the victims of what happened in Florida.

[bots]

It does look like it was inspired by ISIS if not a direct plan. Across the world there are any number of mentally unstable people that will latch on to that as justification for committing atrocities on whomever they wish. The problem that America has is that with guns so readily available, the amount of damage they can do is potentially much greater. Yes, people can get hold of guns/bombs anywhere, but it requires thought, planning and effort to accomplish. In America, they have the means at their disposal with no preparation required.

[Samm]

TEgd9q8ugs4&time_continue

Owen speaks volumes here, it's clear that this is homophobic motivated attack

[Crimson Dynamo]

The AR-15 semi-automatic rifle

One of the two guns used by Omar Mateen

3.3 million

AR-15s in the US in 2012 (estimated)

45 rounds per minute

26 people killed by AR-15 in Sandy Hook in 2012

0 days' wait needed to obtain one in Florida

Source: Slate; AR-15.com; Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence


https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/ar-15.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=940

“This is an instrument of war designed for the battlefield that is marketed and sold to the general public,” said Mark Barden, father of of one of the victims.


Read about this vile thing here: http://qz.com/704939/the-ar-15-is-the-gun-of-choice-for-mass-shootings-and-its-easier-to-buy-in-florida-than-a-pistol/

[Crimson Dynamo]

TEgd9q8ugs4&time_continue

Owen speaks volumes here, it's clear that this is homophobic motivated attack

Jesus wept

No wonder he left :rolleyes:

That SKy guy was hell bent on trying to say that it was just a coincidence that he "stumbled into" a 100% LBGT club and wiped out 59 people


what kind of logic?

[Kizzy]

https://t.co/gcoAoy3vYD

Check out what The President said only last week!!

main shocking revelation is at 2.00 onwards

:shocked:

He speaks perfect sense.. do it Obama while you still can!!

[Kizzy]

Well done to Owen for getting out of the vipers nest, the guy did target one subsection of society there's nothing wrong or disrespectful about admitting that.. nor was he suggesting he felt any better or worse than anyone else about it.
Heck even the telegraph headline in discussion read gays in the west targeted :/

[Firewire]

The AR-15 semi-automatic rifle

One of the two guns used by Omar Mateen

3.3 million

AR-15s in the US in 2012 (estimated)

45 rounds per minute

26 people killed by AR-15 in Sandy Hook in 2012

0 days' wait needed to obtain one in Florida

Source: Slate; AR-15.com; Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence


https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/ar-15.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=940

“This is an instrument of war designed for the battlefield that is marketed and sold to the general public,” said Mark Barden, father of of one of the victims.


Read about this vile thing here: http://qz.com/704939/the-ar-15-is-the-gun-of-choice-for-mass-shootings-and-its-easier-to-buy-in-florida-than-a-pistol/

Regardless of what people think about gun laws, NO ONE should be able to get their hands on this at a gun store. Why does a person need this?!

[arista]

Yes and he took time to Reload
thats when you get him

[user104658]

The AR-15 semi-automatic rifle

One of the two guns used by Omar Mateen

3.3 million

AR-15s in the US in 2012 (estimated)

45 rounds per minute

26 people killed by AR-15 in Sandy Hook in 2012

0 days' wait needed to obtain one in Florida

Source: Slate; AR-15.com; Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence


https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/ar-15.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=940

“This is an instrument of war designed for the battlefield that is marketed and sold to the general public,” said Mark Barden, father of of one of the victims.


Read about this vile thing here: http://qz.com/704939/the-ar-15-is-the-gun-of-choice-for-mass-shootings-and-its-easier-to-buy-in-florida-than-a-pistol/


This is a big part of the problem, and the major flaw in the "criminals would just get guns anyway" argument.

Yes... Criminals would still be able to get their hands on guns through the black market. However getting a gun like THIS on the black market would cost a small fortune if they weren't being sold to civilians... the guns criminals can easily get hold of through illicit means are generally manually loaded revolvers, perhaps semi-auto handguns, shotguns and smaller caliber rifles. MAYBE something like an UZI or an AK but that would be far, far less common.

The big difference is that with a 6-shot revolver you're going to kill at most 6 people, and more likely one or two people and injure a couple of others, before you have to reload and someone takes you down. With an assault rifle the attack is relentless, more rounds in the clip, fast reload, and it's firing high-impact rounds that are far more likely to kill. These weapons are what make mass shootings possible.

Same goes for murder stats. Yes they can be as high in countries with gun control; if someone decides they want to kill one person, it's relatively easy to kill that person, with any weapon. A knife, a lead pipe, your bare hands... just as easy as using a gun, in some cases easier.

The reason gun controls have little effect on murder stats? Simple - the vast majority of murders are single murders, one individual killing one other individual.

The reason they have even less effect on violent crime stats? Because most reported violent crimes don't involve a weapon of any kind, let alone a gun.

Walk into a crowded room and try to kill people en masse with a knife? Most likely scenario is that you'll kill the first one who is caught unawares and then lightly injure a couple of others in the struggle that follows. No one walks into a room with a knife and casually murders 50+ people. It's just not possible.

So the only relevant statistic to look at when it comes to gun control, is murders that involve multiple deaths. Gun control absolutely does have a drastic effect on those stats.

[user104658]

Oh and just to add... no one needs more than a small caliber handgun for personal protection, or a non-auto rifles / shotguns for hunting. There is literally no compelling argument for selling assault rifles and other military grade weapons to the general public without some SERIOUS paperwork being involved.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The Daily Mail today decide to troll their readers than feature Orlando..


http://img.kiosko.net/2016/06/13/uk/daily_mail.750.jpg

[Denver]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/orlando-victims-travel-agent-brand-manager-and-technician-among-dead

some victims have been named

[Denver]

one of the young lads only came out as gay at New Year :bawling:

[user104658]

Well done to Owen for getting out of the vipers nest, the guy did target one subsection of society there's nothing wrong or disrespectful about admitting that.. nor was he suggesting he felt any better or worse than anyone else about it.
Heck even the telegraph headline in discussion read gays in the west targeted :/

Yeah it's BS in my opinion - from what I've read, I think this all has far more to do with the guy specifically targetting homosexuality than it does ISIS or anything else, which he's used as a justification or excuse, probably even to himself. I suspect he specifically hated and wanted to kill gay people, full stop.

There's an article where someone talks about him "becoming enraged" at the sight of two men kissing. Total conjecture and guesswork here but... a fairly realistic scenario is that it's because he found himself unwillingly aroused by it and that conflicted with his personal or religious beliefs, making him angry, and directing that anger at any gay person, probably building up over years. It's a sort of "classic" homophobe scenario taken to a horrifying extreme.

[arista]

TEgd9q8ugs4&time_continue

Owen speaks volumes here, it's clear that this is homophobic motivated attack



Yes but Do Not Walk Off
a SkyNews Paper Review set
that looked silly
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/13/11/3536B00E00000578-3638679-image-a-68_1465815219496.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/13/12/35373C3D00000578-3638679-image-a-71_1465816042776.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/13/12/35373C4200000578-3638679-image-a-69_1465816036230.jpg

[Crimson Dynamo]

Whilst I know its not a competition etc

A car bomb could wipe out 80 tomoz in Iraq and we would not give 2 hoots or make a thread.

Just worth noting in terms of the hierarchy of death

[Crimson Dynamo]

Whilst I know its not a competition etc

A car bomb could wipe out 80 tomoz in Iraq and we would not give 2 hoots or make a thread.

Just worth noting in terms of the hierarchy of death

[Kizzy]

I feel it's important to draw a distinction between an ISIS member and and ISIS sympathiser. So far, is sounds like this man was the latter. A "Lone Wolf" hateful individual who planned and carried out his attack on his own, driven mostly by his own personal hatred of homosexuality - a hatred that probably THEN lead him to identify with ISIS ideology. As opposed to an ISIS "member" who planned an atrocity as part of a cell under the instruction of ISIS superiors.

ISIS will take credit for anything and that's why it's important to be accurate in reporting what has actually happened... There's a REASON they want to take credit, and they should not be allowed to every time a lone psychopath decides to mention IS, Islam or Allah during their attack. It gives people the false impression that they are organising these events, which makes them more terrifying, and so achieves their goal: to spread terror.

Agreed, said as much myself in a previous post. It does seem to be downplaying it to say it was ISIL orchestrated and not just as you say a sympathser with one very specific loathing.
Maybe some Americans find that distasteful as they feel the same?....

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/13/12/article-3638196-353851A900000578-832_964x387.jpg
Good Job the Swat Tank truck
made a hole in the wall of the bogs
letting loads escape.

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/13/12/3537B9E800000578-3638196-image-a-53_1465817747004.jpg

[user104658]

Maybe some Americans find that distasteful as they feel the same?....

It's a heirarchy of hatred; there are a lot of bigoted people who hate homosexuality, but currently hate Islam even more... so if it was an ISIS attacks they can be angry about the deaths of their own "American gays". If it was a bible-thumping redneck a lot of people would sadly have less of an issue with it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/13/12/3537B9E800000578-3638196-image-a-53_1465817747004.jpg

what was happening in the 3 hours since he called the police?


:umm2:

[arista]

what was happening in the 3 hours since he called the police?


:umm2:


It appears
he held the Police off with his Magazine Rifle

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3638196/PICTURED-grim-scene-bullet-riddled-Orlando-nightclub-50-massacred-terrorist-swat-team-knocked-wall-killed-him.html

[TomC]

This is so, so sad.

I don't understand why the lives of America's citizens isn't placed at paramount importance, regardless of whether the gun industry is lucrative.

With respect to the Owen Jones thing, i see his point in some respect, but I don't understand how he can speak with such conviction about what the attacker's motives are. I particularly didn't like when he said 'you don't understand because you aren't gay.' We don't know if exactly the reason why they were pursued - yes it's likely homophobically driven, but you can't just own this - terror is something that affects everyone.

[Kizzy]

I think he has a point, unless you are a targeted minority group you can't fully understand,you can sympathise and be appalled but that's it.

[the truth]

i found this very moving http://wric.com/2016/06/13/video-gay-mens-chorus-sings-in-front-of-white-house-to-honor-orlando-victims/

[Marsh.]

I think he has a point, unless you are a targeted minority group you can't fully understand,you can sympathise and be appalled but that's it.

True. A valid point.
But at the same time, massacres on this scale have hardly been isolated to minority groups, so his assertion that nobody outside of that group can understand came across a little self serving IMO. His whole attitude didn't help any debate I thought.

[the truth]

True. A valid point.
But at the same time, massacres on this scale have hardly been isolated to minority groups, so his assertion that nobody outside of that group can understand came across a little self serving IMO. His whole attitude didn't help any debate I thought.

true. maybe he got over emotional which is understandable after this horrific attack

[Tom4784]

The AR-15 semi-automatic rifle

One of the two guns used by Omar Mateen

3.3 million

AR-15s in the US in 2012 (estimated)

45 rounds per minute

26 people killed by AR-15 in Sandy Hook in 2012

0 days' wait needed to obtain one in Florida

Source: Slate; AR-15.com; Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence


https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/ar-15.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=940

“This is an instrument of war designed for the battlefield that is marketed and sold to the general public,” said Mark Barden, father of of one of the victims.


Read about this vile thing here: http://qz.com/704939/the-ar-15-is-the-gun-of-choice-for-mass-shootings-and-its-easier-to-buy-in-florida-than-a-pistol/

It boggles the mind why a military grade weapon is readily available to the public. Why the hell would anyone that isn't on a battlefield have need for an assault rifle?

[Crimson Dynamo]

It boggles the mind why a military grade weapon is readily available to the public. Why the hell would anyone that isn't on a battlefield have need for an assault rifle?

designed to pierce a metal helmet on entry and exit at 500m

so can you imagine what it was like at 10m in that club?

[Kizzy]

This will be my last post on this thread.

I don't expect any of you to understand why this has bothered me so much, but oh well. Tibbs never really been the most thoughtful of places.

I understand that some of you are passionate about the gun laws in America and I don't think anyone is denying the fact that more needs to be done to prevent things like this happening. Like not allowing a person who has been known for 'terrorist activity' and 'domestic abuse' to purchase multiple guns from a firearms store. Its unbelieveable.

But to go on and on about gun regulation, arguing with a known troll(s) for pages and pages, the general condescending language of tibb, it just made me so angry. I feel like people on here cared more about arguing and causing trouble than they did about showing respect for the victims of what happened in Florida.

It isn't always a thoughtful place no, try starting a thread about people falling out of boats in the med and you'll see.
This is a tragic news item yet it still sparked debate, for all kinds of reasons the terrorist angle, the fox news angle the gun laws angle there is nothing wrong with that and nothing is said to upset or bother you.

I agree condescending tones and being accused of pack mentality when voicing your opinion is annoying, but then we all have a standpoint.
It is showing respect to have your say, not one post had the intention to cause trouble it was simply a clash of personal opinion.

In a situation where prejudice has caused so much death and misery can it ever be right to say nothing?

[Marsh.]

Not to mention this is the debates section so it was always going to lead to a deeper discussion outside of condolences for the victims.

[Tom4784]

designed to pierce a metal helmet on entry and exit at 500m

so can you imagine what it was like at 10m in that club?

I don't really want to tbh.

It's so frustrating and emotionally draining, these tragedies are a cycle of death that will only keep repeating itself. I'm so sick of it and the inaction on the US government's part to do anything meaningful to prevent these tragedies from occurring.

[Kizzy]

7WFI6MtyY-s

[Marsh.]

"We have to decide if that's the kind of country we want to be. To actively do nothing is a decision as well."

Yeah, let's hope something actually changes this time.

[Smithy]

The gays will get things done :clap1:

[Livia]

It's been such a terrible tragedy, I didn't think this thread could make it feel worse. But it has.

[VanessaFeltz.]

1) there is 100s of terrorist organisations why focus on ISIS?

2) they are impossible to kill because we dont know who they are, where they are and more importantly their next step

1) Because they are the strongest terrorist organisation in the world, they ****ed the middle east, poor people are suffering for years because of these people also not only that they are attacked to belgium, turkey, sweden etc etc they need to be stopped and it is not only middle east's problem it is the world's problem i dont understand why people dont get this.

2) They are strong in middle east why not attack their homeback and destroy their main support? If you cut their head off they will get weaker and maybe we can save some lives.

[bots]

that text conversation from one of the victims is just heartbreaking

[Wizard.]

Yeah this is heartbreaking, I donated to the victims fund I just tend to not talk about these things online.

[TomC]

Owen actually behaved pretty badly IMO. Don't think he did a good job.

[Kizzy]

He did as well as could be expected considering such a blatant denial of the facts.

[Shaun]

Julia Hartley-Brewer does a stellar job of speaking without any knowledge of what she's talking about on the regular.

[Kizzy]

Barack Obama said there was no indication that the gunman who shot 49 people dead at Pulse in Orlando had been directed from abroad and called the atrocity “an example of home-grown extremism”.

“It appears that the shooter was inspired by various extremist information that was disseminated over the internet,” the President said.

“It does appear that at the last minute he announced allegiance to Isil (Isis) but there is no evidence so far that he was in fact directed by Isil or that it was part of a larger plot.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/orlando-shooting-live-latest-updates-isis-links-omar-mateen-kills-50-at-pulse-gay-nightclub-worst-a7079051.html

[TomC]

He did as well as could be expected considering such a blatant denial of the facts.

What facts?

[Kizzy]

What facts?

The fact he specifically targeted an LGBT venue.

[Jack_]

Owen rightly showed up that abhorrent waste of a channel they call Sky News up for what they are. This was a deliberate, targeted attack on the LGBT community by a man who had openly said he was revulsed by homosexuality. If you can't see that then you shouldn't even be commenting on the story to be quite honest.

People will bend over backwards to try and pretend that this incident has nothing to do with guns but as many have said, it absolutely does. The fact that a civilian can get their hands on a weapon of the ilk that LeatherTrumpet posted is absolutely ****ing astounding, there is no reason whatsoever why anyone should be able to walk into a store and purchase something like that without extremely thorough background checks. It is beyond comprehension.

And lastly, do ~official~ classifications of what is and isn't a 'terrorist' act really matter? Often they are laced in institutionalised racism and quite frankly any person or people who commit an act of mass murder in an instance like this is a terrorist. Who or what they connected to is completely irrelevant when giving them the label.

[TomC]

The fact he specifically targeted an LGBT venue.

Of course he did. And although it's highly likely, we don't know for a fact that it was an attack on the LGBT community exclusively, and in addition to this, this attack affects everyone, for that very reason.

What I take issue with is him saying 'you don't understand, you're not gay.' That is completely incorrect, as we don't know his exact motive, and the fact he's trying to narrow it down to homophobia, when in fact it's a much wider issue of radical Islam that's the issue.

[Denver]

1) Because they are the strongest terrorist organisation in the world, they ****ed the middle east, poor people are suffering for years because of these people also not only that they are attacked to belgium, turkey, sweden etc etc they need to be stopped and it is not only middle east's problem it is the world's problem i dont understand why people dont get this.

2) They are strong in middle east why not attack their homeback and destroy their main support? If you cut their head off they will get weaker and maybe we can save some lives.

The Taliban are the worst

[Crimson Dynamo]

Owen rightly showed up that abhorrent waste of a channel they call Sky News up for what they are. This was a deliberate, targeted attack on the LGBT community by a man who had openly said he was revulsed by homosexuality. If you can't see that then you shouldn't even be commenting on the story to be quite honest.

People will bend over backwards to try and pretend that this incident has nothing to do with guns but as many have said, it absolutely does. The fact that a civilian can get their hands on a weapon of the ilk that LeatherTrumpet posted is absolutely ****ing astounding, there is no reason whatsoever why anyone should be able to walk into a store and purchase something like that without extremely thorough background checks. It is beyond comprehension.

And lastly, do ~official~ classifications of what is and isn't a 'terrorist' act really matter? Often they are laced in institutionalised racism and quite frankly any person or people who commit an act of mass murder in an instance like this is a terrorist. Who or what they connected to is completely irrelevant when giving them the label.

:clap1:

[TomC]

I'm sorry but I don't understand how there's an issue with anything Sky News actually said?

[TomC]

If you can't see that then you shouldn't even be commenting on the story to be quite honest.

Is this aimed at me?

I can air my views on the matter if I so wish.

[Marsh.]

Of course he did. And although it's highly likely, we don't know for a fact that it was an attack on the LGBT community exclusively, and in addition to this, this attack affects everyone, for that very reason.

What I take issue with is him saying 'you don't understand, you're not gay.' That is completely incorrect, as we don't know his exact motive, and the fact he's trying to narrow it down to homophobia, when in fact it's a much wider issue of radical Islam that's the issue.

Not just that but this is not the first and unfortunately will not be the last attack of its kind around the world. To suggest no one outside of that community of people can understand it is just self centred.

It's literally a global issue of evil people choosing their targets, whether it's because of religion/race/sexuality or any other stupid reason.

[Marsh.]

I'm sorry but I don't understand how there's an issue with anything Sky News actually said?

I could see his issue towards the beginning with the reporters refusal to even make comment to the fact it was an LGBT based attack.

But Jones' behaviour and attitude just made out like he was the spokesperson "for the people". Just sh*t like that grates and makes it about them having a tantrum rather than the much more important events of those whose lives were lost.

[TomC]

Not just that but this is not the first and unfortunately will not be the last attack of its kind around the world. To suggest no one outside of that community of people can understand it is just self centred.

It's literally a global issue of evil people choosing their targets, whether it's because of religion/race/sexuality or any other stupid reason.

I agree wholeheartedly. What happened, happened, and will happen again, and who knows who the target will be.

[Jack_]

I'm sorry but I don't understand how there's an issue with anything Sky News actually said?

Repeatedly refusing to acknowledge that this was a homophobic attack and trying to steer the conversation in typical fashion to the perpetrator's ties and you guessed it...whether it had anything to do with Islamic fundamentalism.

The anchor acted like a pompous twat and Owen showed up their pathetic 'news' coverage for what it really is: biased, inflammatory agenda-setting by the Murdoch scum.

Is this aimed at me?

I can air my views on the matter if I so wish.

It's aimed at the anchor of Sky News, people on Twitter who are denouncing him as some kind of ISIS sympathiser, people in this thread. Anyone. Because trying to pretend the fact that a man whom had said the sight of two men kissing repulsed him entered a gay nightclub whose patrons are predominantly members of the LGBT community and shot 50+ of them dead isn't a targeted act of homophobia is not just idiotic but it's also ****ing insulting.

Owen was right, if he'd targeted a synagogue the attack would have rightly been called anti-semetic and this is no different. It's calling a spade a spade.

[DemolitionRed]

Owen rightly showed up that abhorrent waste of a channel they call Sky News up for what they are. This was a deliberate, targeted attack on the LGBT community by a man who had openly said he was revulsed by homosexuality. If you can't see that then you shouldn't even be commenting on the story to be quite honest.

People will bend over backwards to try and pretend that this incident has nothing to do with guns but as many have said, it absolutely does. The fact that a civilian can get their hands on a weapon of the ilk that LeatherTrumpet posted is absolutely ****ing astounding, there is no reason whatsoever why anyone should be able to walk into a store and purchase something like that without extremely thorough background checks. It is beyond comprehension.

And lastly, do ~official~ classifications of what is and isn't a 'terrorist' act really matter? Often they are laced in institutionalised racism and quite frankly any person or people who commit an act of mass murder in an instance like this is a terrorist. Who or what they connected to is completely irrelevant when giving them the label.

Totally with you on this Jack.

I said the same in this thread a bit earlier but for some reason my post god deleted. :shrug:

[Smithy]

Owen rightly showed up that abhorrent waste of a channel they call Sky News up for what they are. This was a deliberate, targeted attack on the LGBT community by a man who had openly said he was revulsed by homosexuality. If you can't see that then you shouldn't even be commenting on the story to be quite honest.

People will bend over backwards to try and pretend that this incident has nothing to do with guns but as many have said, it absolutely does. The fact that a civilian can get their hands on a weapon of the ilk that LeatherTrumpet posted is absolutely ****ing astounding, there is no reason whatsoever why anyone should be able to walk into a store and purchase something like that without extremely thorough background checks. It is beyond comprehension.

And lastly, do ~official~ classifications of what is and isn't a 'terrorist' act really matter? Often they are laced in institutionalised racism and quite frankly any person or people who commit an act of mass murder in an instance like this is a terrorist. Who or what they connected to is completely irrelevant when giving them the label.

:clap1:

[Tom4784]

Can't blame Owen for walking out, those other two idiots were trying to erase the LGBT angle which is just plain insulting.

[Macie Lightfoot]

And lastly, do ~official~ classifications of what is and isn't a 'terrorist' act really matter? Often they are laced in institutionalised racism and quite frankly any person or people who commit an act of mass murder in an instance like this is a terrorist. Who or what they connected to is completely irrelevant when giving them the label.

wait you mean terrorism isn't just a brown person killing people?????? :o :o :o

[Kizzy]

Of course he did. And although it's highly likely, we don't know for a fact that it was an attack on the LGBT community exclusively, and in addition to this, this attack affects everyone, for that very reason.

What I take issue with is him saying 'you don't understand, you're not gay.' That is completely incorrect, as we don't know his exact motive, and the fact he's trying to narrow it down to homophobia, when in fact it's a much wider issue of radical Islam that's the issue.

It's clear to me, he went to a gay venue ergo he was targeting gays.
If it had been a Jewish venue it would instantly be seen (quite rightly) as antisemitic, so why can this not be stated as a homophobic terrorist attack?

I don't believe those outside the communities affected by prejudice can know, they can empathise and be repulsed but can't fully understand.

[Shaun]

Aside from the fact he targeted a gay club and the interview with his father:

Meanwhile Mateen's father told NBC News the attack "had nothing to do with religion".

Seddique Mateen said his son became "very angry" after seeing two men kissing in downtown Miami recently.

I'm not sure how much more clear it needs to be that the motivation for this attack was homophobic...

[Braden]

Hasn't his Dad made comments about how 'god will deal with the homosexuals'?

[Ammi]

Owen Jones walks out after reporters downplay homophobia in this act.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/owen-jones-walks-off-sky-news-after-presenters-deflect-homophobia-behind-orlando-shooting-a7078891.html

The reporter is saying but this is not worst than the Paris attacks but that's not the point Owen was making. This clip is the equivalent of "black lives matter" and people replying with yes but All lives matter.

..I think that CeeCee associated it well with 'Black Lives Matter'...these hate killings couldn't have happened to anyone, like they were saying in the vid..'it could have been any of us..'..but no, they could have only happened to the LGBT community because that was the only target of his hate and terrorism..but they just didn't hear Owen's words or acknowledge them...all of the other factors that were discussed also came into play..(which he acknowledged ..)..but they couldn't take a moment for that one thing, which was the most important fact of all...

[Firewire]

It's clear to me, he went to a gay venue ergo he was targeting gays.
If it had been a Jewish venue it would instantly be seen (quite rightly) as antisemitic, so why can this not be stated as a homophobic terrorist attack?

I don't believe those outside the communities affected by prejudice can know, they can empathise and be repulsed but can't fully understand.

Spot on Kizzy :clap1:

[Black Dagger]

Owen rightly showed up that abhorrent waste of a channel they call Sky News up for what they are. This was a deliberate, targeted attack on the LGBT community by a man who had openly said he was revulsed by homosexuality. If you can't see that then you shouldn't even be commenting on the story to be quite honest.

People will bend over backwards to try and pretend that this incident has nothing to do with guns but as many have said, it absolutely does. The fact that a civilian can get their hands on a weapon of the ilk that LeatherTrumpet posted is absolutely ****ing astounding, there is no reason whatsoever why anyone should be able to walk into a store and purchase something like that without extremely thorough background checks. It is beyond comprehension.

And lastly, do ~official~ classifications of what is and isn't a 'terrorist' act really matter? Often they are laced in institutionalised racism and quite frankly any person or people who commit an act of mass murder in an instance like this is a terrorist. Who or what they connected to is completely irrelevant when giving them the label.

Said it better than what I was going too, their behaviour was abhorrent. Telling him he couldn't have ownership of a tragedy just because he's gay as well. It was a farce from the beginning and he did right getting out of it.

[nicole_burks]

This happened miles away from me. I have friend of friends that were killed. It's a very sad day in Orlando.

[MB.]

Nicole :(

[Firewire]

This happened miles away from me. I have friend of friends that were killed. It's a very sad day in Orlando.

Nicole :( I'm so sorry

[Braden]

This happened miles away from me. I have friend of friends that were killed. It's a very sad day in Orlando.

I know apologizing doesn't do anything but I'm genuinely so sorry, Nicole. My thoughts have been with Orlando and the victims and their families all day :sad:

[Glenn.]

Nicole :hug:

[Ross.]

Nicole :love: :hug:

[ThriceShy]

Barack Obama said there was no indication that the gunman who shot 49 people dead at Pulse in Orlando had been directed from abroad and called the atrocity “an example of home-grown extremism”.

“It appears that the shooter was inspired by various extremist information that was disseminated over the internet,” the President said.

“It does appear that at the last minute he announced allegiance to Isil (Isis) but there is no evidence so far that he was in fact directed by Isil or that it was part of a larger plot.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/orlando-shooting-live-latest-updates-isis-links-omar-mateen-kills-50-at-pulse-gay-nightclub-worst-a7079051.html

I dont see how that matters. If he says he was an ISIS terrorist then he was. Their aim is to recruit and inspire and they have achieved their aim.

[ThriceShy]

Can't blame Owen for walking out, those other two idiots were trying to erase the LGBT angle which is just plain insulting.

I thought Owen behaved like a petulant self serving brat. Pretty much how I imagined left wing Guardian journalists to be actually.

[Jack_]

He's not a journalist

[Jack_]

This happened miles away from me. I have friend of friends that were killed. It's a very sad day in Orlando.

Hope all's good :love:

I was watching a Disney scoper earlier and he was saying how everyone in Orlando is rallying around in support with long lines to donate blood and stuff which is nice to hear

[Shaun]

742485609617457152

So... self-hatred to its extreme I guess?

[Rob!]

The whole thing is just another terrifying example of just how easy it is to kill people on a mass scale. Arguing about the gun laws is completely relevant because the shooting was committed in a country where it is a lot easier to get hold of guns. The Paris attacks were essentially an attack on France rather than a specific demographic of people but the fact remains it is still a terror attack. But one psychopath being an ISIS supporter and claiming he did it for ISIS does not make this an ISIS attack. As others have said, they will take the credit because above all else, it makes them an even more terrifying entity to the rest of the world.
As a gay man it saddens and actually really scares me that an attack on this scale has happened to the community that I am a part of and that I think is where Owen was coming from. I've been the victim of homophobic abuse and attacks before (physical violence, insults etc) and was left feeling shocked and so so saddened as the realisation that there are people out there that think that because of your sexuality you deserve to suffer - or, in this case, die actually hits you in retrospect.

[Liberty4eva]

Interesting how some in the gay community are upset that the topic is being diverted to gun control and Trump which are far easier to discuss than some in Islam hating gays. I found another interview of an angry gay journalist from the UK on the BBC complaining about this. I found it really rich how they twist what he says at the 6:40 mark. They were saying that he was complaining about how America wasn't discussing what needed to be discussed. Actually he was complaining about how the BBC was ignoring the issue!

k0NY-fo6O7w

[Ammi]

This happened miles away from me. I have friend of friends that were killed. It's a very sad day in Orlando.

...awww Nicole..:hug:..I'm so sorry for the loss of your friends and those who were part of their lives....

[Kizzy]

I dont see how that matters. If he says he was an ISIS terrorist then he was. Their aim is to recruit and inspire and they have achieved their aim.

It isn't the same though, a targeted pre planned act of international terrorism is different to domestic terrorism regardless of whether they are carried out in the name of the same extremist faction.

[bots]

If the guy was a regular at the club, then it begins to take on the same profile as that previous attack by the married couple that attacked a place well known to them

[Kizzy]

I agree with Shaun that it stemmed from self loathing.

[arista]

742485609617457152

So... self-hatred to its extreme I guess?


Yes it looks that way

[Kizzy]

'What I want to do is give you a sense of what we know so far. Then, tell you as much as I can about our past contact with the killer. We are going through the killer’s life, as I said, especially his electronics, to understand as much as we can about his path and whether there was anyone else involved, either in directing him or in assisting him. So far, we see no indication that this was a plot directed from outside the United States, and we see no indication that he was part of any kind of network.'

https://www.fbi.gov/news/speeches/update-on-orlando-terrorism-investigation

[Crimson Dynamo]

gay on gay killing

[Cherie]

He might have visited the club regularly to plan his attack, as a lone gunman he took down almost as many people at several attackers did in the Bataclan, he knew exactly what he was doing.

[user104658]

Like I said it's a classic tale; conflict between sexuality and what "religion" tells people is morally right. Kids from birth are indoctrinated into believing the words of their religion - which tells them that homosexuality is wrong - and then they hit sexual maturity and realise that they are aroused by people of the same gender. But that religious doctrine is so firmly implanted that it leaves them with massive, illogical feelings of guilt and anger at themselves, which all too often results in them lashing out at other "sinners" in an effort to prove that they're "not like them".

Yes, this time it has been taken to a horrifying and devastating extreme... but there are countless examples of people in denial (of all religions) turning to violence, even murder, because of the fundamental incompatibilities between their instincts and their belief system. Most often it's the individual violent assault of (sometimes murder of) a person that they have felt themselves attracted to or who has perhaps indicated that they are attracted to them.

Let's not petend otherwise. Religion is a huge part of the problem. The other facilitating factor is the elephant in the room in the US... the far-too-easy access to high powered assault weaponry.

[Livia]

Terrorism.

That is all.

[ThriceShy]

If the guy was a regular at the club, then it begins to take on the same profile as that previous attack by the married couple that attacked a place well known to them

This.

I don't think this was necessarily an attack on gays, just an attack on somewhere that he was familiar with.

[Glenn.]

It was an attack on gays.

[Livia]

It was an attack on gays. .

A terrorist attack on gays.

[Niamh.]

Not impressed with his fathers comments about the Night Club sharing some of the responsibility

[Kizzy]

This.

I don't think this was necessarily an attack on gays, just an attack on somewhere that he was familiar with.

The married couple knew the childcare facility yes, but how would a heterosexual man know a gay nightclub, if it was a random attack then why had he been there before?

[ThriceShy]

A terrorist attack on gays.

It was a terrorist attack on America. I think the fact it was a gay club is a huge red herring. It looks like it was somewhere that he hung out.

School shooters tend to shoot up their own school. The San Bernardino terrorists shot up their own workplace. And now it looks like this guy shot up the club that he frequented.

[ThriceShy]

The married couple knew the childcare facility yes, but how would a heterosexual man know a gay nightclub, if it was a random attack then why had he been there before?

Because he was gay?

[Kizzy]

Because he was gay?

What makes you think he was gay?

[Cherie]

Because he was gay?

Maybe, but he may also have frequented it to plan an attack? I guess we will find out in time, I don't really understand why people are trying to distance this from terrorism though, whether he received direct orders or was inspired by some loyalty to the cause terrorism was at its root

[Kizzy]

Maybe, but he may also have frequented it to plan an attack? I guess we will find out in time, I don't really understand why people are trying to distance this from terrorism though, whether he received direct orders or was inspired by some loyalty to the cause terrorism was at its root

Who is trying to distance this from terrorism... Am I missing something?

[DemolitionRed]

The married couple knew the childcare facility yes, but how would a heterosexual man know a gay nightclub, if it was a random attack then why had he been there before?

He worked as a security guard and a lot of security companies are independents who work their guards on a booking system. He probably never worked there but as a security guard, its likely he'd heard a lot of his colleagues talking about it.

[Livia]

Not impressed with his fathers comments about the Night Club sharing some of the responsibility

Also, his comment that his son shouldn't have shot them because homosexuals will be punished by God was quite a disgusting comment two days after all those people lost their lives.

[Niamh.]

Also, his comment that his son shouldn't have shot them because homosexuals will be punished by God was quite a disgusting comment two days after all those people lost their lives.

Oh I didn't hear that one. That is revolting

[Drew.]

Also, his comment that his son shouldn't have shot them because homosexuals will be punished by God was quite a disgusting comment two days after all those people lost their lives.

Easy to see where his son got it from then

[user104658]

There's a fairly clear picture of what has actually caused him to snap here, in my opinion, and based on his comments, it is largely down to the father's beliefs and his enforcement of them. Just a few of these comments make it really obvious that this man created a very disturbed, dangerous individual... and that's almost certainly him "holding back" speaking in public. Imagine what has been said behind closed doors as this guy was growing up.

[joeysteele]

He likely is a terrorists sympathiser or even one himself, however his Dad said he had got mad at seeing 2 guys kissing in the street and that he was likely homophobic.

IS for instance would wipe gay communities off the face of the earth.
I agreed with Owen Jones on sky news, when he stormed off, rightly in my view,had this been against another grouping of the community, it would have been seen as an attack on them.

Terrorist incident or not,he chose to do this where he expected only the gay community to be,intertwined or not,it cannot and should not be belittled,just my opinion, as to how bad an attack this was predominantly on the gay community too.

An absolutely horrifying and sickening incident.

[ThriceShy]

What makes you think he was gay?

He regularly attended a gay nightclub and had a profile on a gay dating app.

Raging clues.

[Niamh.]

He likely is a terrorists ympathiser or even one himself however his Dad said he had got mad at seeing 2 guys kissing in the street and that he was likely homophobic.

IS for instance would wipe gay communities off the face of the earth.
I agreed with Own Jones on sky news, when he stormed off, rightly in my view,had this been against another grouping of the community, it would have been seen as an attack on them.

Terrorist incident or not,he chose to do this where he expected only the gay community to be,intertwined or not,it cannot and should not be belittled as to how bad an attack this was predominantly on the gay community too.

An absolutely horrifying and sickening incident.

Yes I agree, clearly he specifically targeted a gay club as being gay is against their rules, you can see that from comments his father made

[ThriceShy]

Oh I didn't hear that one. That is revolting

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it is a typical belief of the muslim community. Their Quran tells them that homosexuality is wrong.

This is why I get so confused at the LGBT community defending and campaigning for muslim refugees etc. They hate the LGBT community.

[ThriceShy]

Yes I agree, clearly he specifically targeted a gay club as being gay is against their rules, you can see that from comments his father made

Then why did he have a profile on a gay dating app?

[joeysteele]

Yes I agree, clearly he specifically targeted a gay club as being gay is against their rules, you can see that from comments his father made

That's right it wasn't a train or other public service vehicle with likely all kinds of citizens on it, or a shopping centre, with again an across the board mix of the communities.
It was an identifiable gay club, where he knew for certain 'likely' all or near all the people there at that time were of the gay community only.

[Niamh.]

Then why did he have a profile on a gay dating app?

I just saw that now, jeez weird, must be him trying to ease the shame he felt for being gay and muslim and with a dad who sounds very much like he wouldn't except a gay son? :/

[Tom4784]

Then why did he have a profile on a gay dating app?

Because most militant homophobes are people with severe self loathing issues.

To deny that this is an attack on LBGT is to deny reality.

He targeted gay people in a gay club during Pride Month. It was both a hate crime and act of terror (as all these mass shootings are, regardless of race or creed).

[joeysteele]

Because most militant homophobes are people with severe self loathing issues.

To deny that this is an attack on LBGT is to deny reality.

He targeted gay people in a gay club during Pride Month. It was both a hate crime and act of terror (as all these mass shootings are, regardless of race or creed).

You said it much better than I did. I agree.

[Tom4784]

I don't honestly believe this to be a religious issue, reports have said that the shooter wasn't particularly religious, he most likely used it as justification to mask the real reason which was that his homophobia stemmed from being unable to accept his own sexuality.

[ThriceShy]

This LA Times article sheds a bit of new light on it:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160613-snap-story.html


A high school acquaintance recalled that Mateen was a “regular dude” until the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

“He started acting crazy, joking around the fact that 9/11 happened, making plane noises on the school bus and pretending he was slamming into the building,” said Robert Zirkle, who rode the school bus every day with Mateen in Stuart, Fla., 15 years ago.

“He was happy that Americans were dying. He made that very clear. I don’t know if he was always a Muslim radical, but he was excited, hyped up. We were all, like, ‘What are you talking about?’” Zirkle recalled.


So 15 years ago he was celebrating americans dying in 9/11.

[ThriceShy]

I don't honestly believe this to be a religious issue, reports have said that the shooter wasn't particularly religious, he most likely used it as justification to mask the real reason which was that his homophobia stemmed from being unable to accept his own sexuality.

Then why did he celebrate americans dying on 9/11, 15 years earlier?

Sounds to me like he was an islamic radical who wanted to kill americans and the gay people in the club just happened to be where he hung out.

[Niamh.]

I don't honestly believe this to be a religious issue, reports have said that the shooter wasn't particularly religious, he most likely used it as justification to mask the real reason which was that his homophobia stemmed from being unable to accept his own sexuality.

Yeah it does sound like that now with these revelations about his own sexuality. I did wonder why his father would be so vocal about it earlier, most families want to be kept far out of the spot light after something like this. Seems he's pretty bothered by the world knowing his son was gay :/

[ThriceShy]

Yeah it does sound like that now with these revelations about his own sexuality. I did wonder why his father would be so vocal about it earlier, most families want to be kept far out of the spot light after something like this. Seems he's pretty bothered by the world knowing his son was gay :/

There is absolutely no evidence he targetted these people because they were gay. That couple in San Bernardino ended up killing people he had worked with for 5 years.

The fact that he pledged allegiance to ISIS and was already known to the FBI as a radical, and had already said 15 years earlier that he was glad americans died in 9/11, tells us that this was an islamic terrorist attack.

The fact that he may be gay or his victims are is incidental.

[Tom4784]

Then why did he celebrate americans dying on 9/11, 15 years earlier?

Sounds to me like he was an islamic radical who wanted to kill americans and the gay people in the club just happened to be where he hung out.

That report doesn't really fit into what every other report has been saying though. He wasn't religious, he didn't have any ties to any known terror groups and it seems strange that he could be so openly happy about 9/11 without anyone raising an issue about it until now.

It's a bit of a dubious report when you compare it to everything else we know.

[Niamh.]

There is absolutely no evidence he targetted these people because they were gay. That couple in San Bernardino ended up killing people he had worked with for 5 years.

The fact that he pledged allegiance to ISIS and was already known to the FBI as a radical, and had already said 15 years earlier that he was glad americans died in 9/11, tells us that this was an islamic terrorist attack.

The fact that he may be gay or his victims are is incidental.

I disagree with that and I doubt there is anyway to prove whether he specifically choose the club because it was a gay club or because he was familiar with it now anyway.

[user104658]

There is absolutely no evidence he targetted these people because they were gay. That couple in San Bernardino ended up killing people he had worked with for 5 years.

The fact that he pledged allegiance to ISIS and was already known to the FBI as a radical, and had already said 15 years earlier that he was glad americans died in 9/11, tells us that this was an islamic terrorist attack.

The fact that he may be gay or his victims are is incidental.

Even if you are right and it was entirely motivated by him being a religious extremist... the fact that the victims were gay is far from "incidental" and his own sexuality is even more relevant? Are you unaware of the attitudes that ISIS (and let's be blunt, all Abrahamic religions when followed to the word) hold towards homosexuality?

[Tom4784]

There is absolutely no evidence he targetted these people because they were gay. That couple in San Bernardino ended up killing people he had worked with for 5 years.

The fact that he pledged allegiance to ISIS and was already known to the FBI as a radical, and had already said 15 years earlier that he was glad americans died in 9/11, tells us that this was an islamic terrorist attack.

The fact that he may be gay or his victims are is incidental.

You must not be paying attention if you believe that, you must only be cherry picking reports that suit your 'ALL MUSLIMS ARE EVIL' agenda.

This is an attack on the LGBT community, it's ****ing DISGRACEFUL to minimise that fact to justify your own ****ing hatred.

[ThriceShy]

That report doesn't really fit into what every other report has been saying though. He wasn't religious, he didn't have any ties to any known terror groups and it seems strange that he could be so openly happy about 9/11 without anyone raising an issue about it until now.

It's a bit of a dubious report when you compare it to everything else we know.

It fits in perfectly with everything we know. He was a known islamic extremist, who the FBI had physically surveiled and they had interviewed him 3 times. He pledged allegiance to ISIS before carrying out the attack. And he was known in his youth to celebrate 9/11 and be glad americans were dead.

All of that points to an islamic terror attack. And the authorities in america are all treating it as one.

To claim this is about gays is like claiming the Bataclan killers did it because they didn't like the music of the band that were playing.

It is a red herring. The left, IMO, are having difficulty resolving this as they spend equal amounts of time campaigning for muslims and gay people and this has really confused them.

[ThriceShy]

You must not be paying attention if you believe that, you must only be cherry picking reports that suit your 'ALL MUSLIMS ARE EVIL' agenda.

This is an attack on the LGBT community, it's ****ing DISGRACEFUL to minimise that fact to justify your own ****ing hatred.

I haven't claimed anywhere that all muslims are evil. Just that this particular one was a terrorist who hated americans. And the FBI and all other law enforcement and judiciary in america agree with me.

I am surprised that people want to paint him as just a self-loathing gay guy as that reflects quite badly on the gay community. If I was in the LGBT community, I would be wanting this to be an extremist, not one of my own.

All evidence points to him being an islamic terrorist. This isn't just me saying this. The authorities involved are too. You haven't shown me anything to make me disbelieve them.

[Tom4784]

It fits in perfectly with everything we know. He was a known islamic extremist, who the FBI had physically surveiled and they had interviewed him 3 times. He pledged allegiance to ISIS before carrying out the attack. And he was known in his youth to celebrate 9/11 and be glad americans were dead.

All of that points to an islamic terror attack. And the authorities in america are all treating it as one.

To claim this is about gays is like claiming the Bataclan killers did it because they didn't like the music of the band that were playing.

It is a red herring. The left, IMO, are having difficulty resolving this as they spend equal amounts of time campaigning for muslims and gay people and this has really confused them.

Pathetic, honestly pathetic.

I'm disgusted by your attitude, you are so willing to deny that this is a hate crime targeted at the LGBT community, to downplay their suffering and loss just so you can go on an BIGOTED anti-islamic tirade. Disgusting.

[bots]

I don't honestly believe this to be a religious issue, reports have said that the shooter wasn't particularly religious, he most likely used it as justification to mask the real reason which was that his homophobia stemmed from being unable to accept his own sexuality.

People associate themselves with causes to justify their actions. I mean that's actually what ISIS do all the time. Its a means of saying we can be as abhorrent as we want, but they still always pick on the defenseless rather than those that can defend themselves

[Niamh.]

I haven't claimed anywhere that all muslims are evil. Just that this particular one was a terrorist who hated americans. And the FBI and all other law enforcement and judiciary in america agree with me.

I am surprised that people want to paint him as just a self-loathing gay guy as that reflects quite badly on the gay community. If I was in the LGBT community, I would be wanting this to be an extremist, not one of my own.

All evidence points to him being an islamic terrorist. This isn't just me saying this. The authorities involved are too. You haven't shown me anything to make me disbelieve them.

Sounds to me like it's both, a self loathing terrorist

[ThriceShy]

Even if you are right and it was entirely motivated by him being a religious extremist... the fact that the victims were gay is far from "incidental" and his own sexuality is even more relevant? Are you unaware of the attitudes that ISIS (and let's be blunt, all Abrahamic religions when followed to the word) hold towards homosexuality?

It could possibly have been a factor. But to claim this wasn't a terrorist attack and was simply a self loathing gay guy killing gays and masking it with islamism, is just ludicrous.

[ThriceShy]

Pathetic, honestly pathetic.

I'm disgusted by your attitude, you are so willing to deny that this is a hate crime targeted at the LGBT community, to downplay their suffering and loss just so you can go on an BIGOTED anti-islamic tirade. Disgusting.

Why are you personally attacking me? I haven't resorted to that.

I don't believe that this is about homosexuality. I just think it was a convenient target for his long term, proven extremism and hatred of americans.

Yes, he may have picked a gay club as he dislikes gays particularly but in the grand scheme of things, it isn't relevant. PEOPLE are dead because of this clown. I don't care what sexuality they were and I don't see why it matters.

[Cherie]

Apparently he visited the club about a dozen times, just because he had a gay dating app and visited the club doesn't mean he is automatically gay, he may have just been researching his target, until someone comes forward to say he was in a gay relationship with them we have no evidence to say he was. The 9/11 pilots weren't pilots, they just trained as pilots to carry out their attack, they weren't ferrying tourists and business people around the globe

[ThriceShy]

Sounds to me like it's both, a self loathing terrorist

It's a possibility. People are usually more than one-dimensional. However, this WAS an islamic terrorist attack. The FBI say it is and until I see something compelling then I am going to believe them. They are pretty good at what they do.

[user104658]

It could possibly have been a factor. But to claim this wasn't a terrorist attack and was simply a self loathing gay guy killing gays and masking it with islamism, is just ludicrous.

It's a possibility. People are usually more than one-dimensional. However, this WAS an islamic terrorist attack. The FBI say it is and until I see something compelling then I am going to believe them. They are pretty good at what they do.

You seem to be sort of stuck on it being one or the other; it's likely that the very reason for his self-loathing is that him and his family are skewed towards the religious extreme. On top if that, ISIS are already well known for targetting gay people in their attacks. You seem to think that "All Americans" and "Homosexual Americans" are indistinguishable to these extremists. They are not. The west's acceptance of homosexuality and gay communities is one of the specific reasons that ISIS hates the west in the first place.

Suggesting that he just "happened to know" the club or that it was "just the place he stumbled into" is utterly ridiculous. Whatever his larger motivation, there is no question that the attack was targetted against people that he, for whatever reason, specifically hated for their sexuality. It is uttely blinkered to argue otherwise.

[ThriceShy]

You seem to be sort of stuck on it being one or the other; it's likely that the very reason for his self-loathing is that him and his family are skewed towards the religious extreme. On top if that, ISIS are already well known for targetting gay people in their attacks. You seem to think that "All Americans" and "Homosexual Americans" are indistinguishable to these extremists. They are not. The west's acceptance of homosexuality and gay communities is one of the specific reasons that ISIS hates the west in the first place.

Suggesting that he just "happened to know" the club or that it was "just the place he stumbled into" is utterly ridiculous. Whatever his larger motivation, there is no question that the attack was targetted against people that he, for whatever reason, specifically hated for their sexuality. It is uttely blinkered to argue otherwise.

What gave you that idea? Was it when I said that the homophobia was possibly an aspect of it and that people are more than one dimensional?:conf:

You have no evidence that he specifically targeted this club because he hated gays. If he had attacked a straight club, would you have claimed he targeted them because of their sexuality?


It is a wrong assumption. It could be true but you have no evidence for it right now. Everything points to this being a regular haunt for him and mass shooters tend to shoot up places they know.

[Glenn.]

Can we close this thread now. It's making me feel sick

[ThriceShy]

Can we close this thread now. It's making me feel sick

I'm not sure reading it is compulsory.

[VanessaFeltz.]

It is obvious the attack was on LGBT people because the attack was to a gay bar.

If it was a racist attack they would attack to a place which has a big profile of that race or if they wanted to attack muslim people they would attack to a mosque. Or if they only wanted to make a regular terrorist attack they would attack to a big place.

Like i dont understand why some people are like "uggh it is just a normal terrorist attack it has nothing to do with lgbt"

[ThriceShy]

It is obvious the attack was on LGBT people because the attack was to a gay bar.

If it was a racist attack they would attack to a place which has a big profile of that race or if they wanted to attack muslim people they would attack to a mosque. Or if they only wanted to make a regular terrorist attack they would attack to a big place.

Like i dont understand why some people are like "uggh it is just a normal terrorist attack it has nothing to do with lgbt"

So if he had attacked a straight nightclub would that make it an attack on straight people?

Why do such distinctions even matter?

[arista]

Apparently he visited the club about a dozen times, just because he had a gay dating app and visited the club doesn't mean he is automatically gay, he may have just been researching his target, until someone comes forward to say he was in a gay relationship with them we have no evidence to say he was. The 9/11 pilots weren't pilots, they just trained as pilots to carry out their attack, they weren't ferrying tourists and business people around the globe


The Killer knowing that Club
let him murder more
he knew his way around it.

[VanessaFeltz.]

So if he had attacked a straight nightclub would that make it an attack on straight people?

Why do such distinctions even matter?

No it wouldnt because straight people dont get targeted because they are straight, if they are targeted the reason is other than their sexual orientation.

It does matter because hate crimes are motivated by these distinctions. In a perfect world it wouldnt but the world is far from being perfect.

[Firewire]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck36or2UkAA1gRY.jpg

[ThriceShy]

No it wouldnt because straight people dont get targeted because they are straight, if they are targeted the reason is other than their sexual orientation.

It does matter because hate crimes are motivated by these distinctions. In a perfect world it wouldnt but the world is far from being perfect.

It wasn't a hate crime. It was a terrorist attack.

[sampvt]

The breaking news on tv now is that he was gay himself and used the club to pick up men. How does this bode with the gay community now. Seems like the ISIS connection has been downgraded as a cover to maybe a simple case of jealousy or a mental disorder or shame, who knows

[Glenn.]

It wasn't a hate crime. It was a terrorist attack.

It was a hate crime. Are you just trolling because you have nothing else to do or what?

[VanessaFeltz.]

It wasn't a hate crime. It was a terrorist attack.

It was both.

[Lostie!]

So if he had attacked a straight nightclub would that make it an attack on straight people?

Why do such distinctions even matter?

What exactly is a "straight nightclub"? Regular nightclubs don't cater specifically to heterosexual people so I'm not sure what comparison you're attempting to make.

[Shaun]

Oh lord I'm going to need to be held back if people on here start questioning what this means for the LGBT community if it's "one of their own wot dunnit".

[ThriceShy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck36or2UkAA1gRY.jpg

I'm not sure I know what point you are trying to make. The orlando one was a terror attack and all those other ones were most likely gang related crime.

America has a lot of shootings but the vast majority of them are black on black gang killings.

I think the gang issue needs addressing, rather than the guns.

[Kizzy]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it is a typical belief of the muslim community. Their Quran tells them that homosexuality is wrong.

This is why I get so confused at the LGBT community defending and campaigning for muslim refugees etc. They hate the LGBT community.

You say that like it doesn't say that in the bible too and many Americans still believe it.

You get confused due to your own ignorance on the subject.

[ThriceShy]

You say that like it doesn't say that in the bible too and many Americans still believe it.

You get confused due to your own ignorance on the subject.

I agree that the bible says it too. Where did I say otherwise?:shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

i would wager he was brought up that being gay was bad and that he was gay

just my thoughts

[ThriceShy]

Breaking News:

Arrest of accomplice expected

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/wftv-arrest-expected-in-orlando-nightclub-mass-shooting/340918422


I think this will put to bed the idea that he was just a gay guy in denial. Looks like it was an organised attack with more than one person.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

You say that like it doesn't say that in the bible too and many Americans still believe it.

This.

xzAe3oJkWo0

The original video has been taken down, but there's a clip of it in that link.

[ThriceShy]

i would wager he was brought up that being gay was bad and that he was gay

just my thoughts

So a gay guy did this to his own community? I wonder how that will sit with the likes of Owen Jones.

[Livia]

I agree that the bible says it too. Where did I say otherwise?:shrug:

I think the difference between what the Koran says and what the Bible says is that it's only really fundamentalist Christians and Jews who believe that the interpretation that God hates gays is literal. Whereas it's widely believed in Islam by even moderates that homosexuality is an abomination.

[Kizzy]

I agree that the bible says it too. Where did I say otherwise?:shrug:

Then why isolate one holy book as denouncing gays if they both do, also by your fuzzy logic would that not mean all Christians hate gays too?

Why would gays want to help Christians...Why are there gay Christians?

[AProducer'sWetDream]

So a gay guy did this to his own community? I wonder how that will sit with the likes of Owen Jones.

Wow. :facepalm:

[Mystic Mock]

It is obvious the attack was on LGBT people because the attack was to a gay bar.

If it was a racist attack they would attack to a place which has a big profile of that race or if they wanted to attack muslim people they would attack to a mosque. Or if they only wanted to make a regular terrorist attack they would attack to a big place.

Like i dont understand why some people are like "uggh it is just a normal terrorist attack it has nothing to do with lgbt"

It is an LGBT attack.

Some people don't like seeing the LGBT community as victims though as it's apparently "looney left" to see it that way according to some people.

Hence why the only thing they can do is make it about Xenophobia and Racism as to why ISIS would attack a Gay Bar.

[Kizzy]

But the perp is apparently gay. So is it still an LGBT attack?

LT is this you?... :/

[Mystic Mock]

It wasn't a hate crime. It was a terrorist attack.

Can't it be both?

[ThriceShy]

Can't it be both?

Why is it so important to you that it is? Isn't it being a terror attack enough?

[Kizzy]

Christianity is almost dead and even most practising christians do not take a literal interpretation of the bible.

Islam is completely different. They truly believe what their holy book says and even the moderate ones absolutely hate the gay community. It is completely ingrained in their culture.

Yes there are some christian fundamentalists who hate gays but this isn't an instance of that so I am not even sure how it is relevant.

This shooter was a muslim and I am merely pointing out that muslims in general do not like the gay community.

Nope, it isn't there's that ignorance again.

[Livia]

It is an LGBT attack.

Some people don't like seeing the LGBT community as victims though as it's apparently "looney left" to see it that way according to some people.

Hence why the only thing they can do is make it about Xenophobia and Racism as to why ISIS would attack a Gay Bar.

It is a terrorist attack.

When the Jewish deli in Paris was attacked no one viewed it as purely an anti-Semitic attack, it was a terrorist attack. I've been to loads of gay clubs, I'm sure there were plenty of heteros in the club that night just like there would have been loads of gay people at the Bataclan.

[ThriceShy]

Some Muslims hate homosexuality. Some Christians hate homosexuality. Some Jews hate homesexuality. Some athiests hate homosexuality.

There will be some in every religion/belief system that are homophobic. We don't label everyone within that religion/belief system as all being homophobic.

I never mentioned homophobia.

I don't believe they are scared of gays at all.

They don't like homosexuality because they think it is deviant. The "not all muslims" argument won't wash. They all follow the Quran and believe what it says.

[Livia]

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Well said.

But apparently, such a belief makes me ignorant.

Islam does not accept homosexuality in any way whatsoever. Which is why I am always confused by the gay community standing up for the rights of immigrants etc. They hate you.

Yeah, you'll get that a lot here.

[Mystic Mock]

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Well said.

But apparently, such a belief makes me ignorant.

Islam does not accept homosexuality in any way whatsoever. Which is why I am always confused by the gay community standing up for the rights of immigrants etc. They hate you.

Not all immigrants are Muslims though?

But I get what you mean and agree with you to an extent as to why anyone on the left, or gay people (no matter what wing spectrum) would defend the most right wing and prejudiced group out there in our current generation, it makes no sense to me.

[Mystic Mock]

But the perp is apparently gay. So is it still an LGBT attack?

Gay people can be some of the most self-loathing people out there sometimes so I would not be surprised if he hated who he was and attacked anyone that was like him as the Religious nature in him still sees it as a sin.

[ThriceShy]

It is a terrorist attack.

When the Jewish deli in Paris was attacked no one viewed it as purely an anti-Semitic attack, it was a terrorist attack. I've been to loads of gay clubs, I'm sure there were plenty of heteros in the club that night just like there would have been loads of gay people at the Bataclan.

I have just posted a news report about the imminent arrest of an accomplice and I read earlier that the shooter had been scoping out lots of venues but then chose the gay club.

I really think he may have chose this place simply because it was a convenient place to carry out the attack. They sometimes even pick targets based on how far they are from emergency services or how easy it is to enter/leave or resist the police while inside.

They might have chosen it because it was a gay venue but even if that is the case, in the grand scheme of things I don't think it matters. People are people.

Perhaps they just wanted to increase the outrage and publicity. Or perhaps they just wanted to make liberals like Owen Jones do mental gymnastics. If thats the case then they succeeded.

[MTVN]

Reopening this thread because its an ongoing story which I'm sure we'll hear more about but it's generous to say that some of the posts in here are bordering on trolling and being pretty offensive so any of that won't be tolerated and I'd encourage people not to rise to it

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/6/14/471453/default/v1/cegrab-20160614-154525-0-1-736x414.jpg
This fella got Shot in his hip , hand and leg
he then played dead. Not making a sound

Well Done Fella

http://news.sky.com/story/1711897/killer-just-missed-my-head-orlando-survivor

[Macie Lightfoot]

so do some people think it's terrorism just bc a brown person killed ppl?

[MTVN]

so do some people think it's terrorism just bc a brown person killed ppl?

Think its more to do him having been radicalised online, pledging allegiance to ISIS and carrying out a targeted attack on the LGBT community

[joeysteele]

Gay people can be some of the most self-loathing people out there sometimes so I would not be surprised if he hated who he was and attacked anyone that was like him as the Religious nature in him still sees it as a sin.

That is a really good point.

He also it appears had sympathies with the likes of IS who despise the LGBT communities.
For me I agree with you, it should be seen as both a terrorist and a hate crime planned and executed against the LGBT community, in a building where he would expect only those probably from the gay community to be.

The main thing is so many lives lost and so many injured in a horrific incident where the victims were intended to be only from the LGBT gay community.

I honestly cannot see at all how the LGBT issue can be isolated from this and it only be termed a terrorist attack.

[Tom4784]

so do some people think it's terrorism just bc a brown person killed ppl?

Like all mass shootings in the US, it's ultimately terrorism. I just don't buy the Isis angle and I dislike how the media is downplaying this as a hate crime against the LGBT community in favour of it.

[ThriceShy]

Looks like his wife was involved and she drove him to scope out targets.

The gay club was just one possible target. It seems they were considering disney world and went to check that out.

[ThriceShy]

Like all mass shootings in the US, it's ultimately terrorism. I just don't buy the Isis angle and I dislike how the media is downplaying this as a hate crime against the LGBT community in favour of it.

The shooter and his wife also considered Disney world as a target. This wasn't a hate crime. They were just looking for easy targets that would cause the most controversy.

[ThriceShy]

This absolutely puts the issue to bed:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/disney-world-was-scouted-by-orlando-gunman-omar-mateen-as-possib/


Omar Mateen, the Isil-inspired gunman who murdered 49 people at a gay nightclub in Florida, had scouted the Disney World resort in Orlando as a possible target before he carried out America’s worst mass shooting.

Mateen, 29, and his wife went to the tourist attraction – visited by thousands of Britons every week – in April, with Mateen paying particular attention to the Disney Springs shopping area, which has lower level security than the theme parks, reported People magazine.

Cowards like this just want easy targets. Making this a LGBT issue is one of the most bizarre things I have seen on the internet.

The club happened to be a gay club. That is it. This case is a virtual carbon copy of the San Bernadino couple.

[the truth]

ive terrorism. 33000 innocents killed last year by isis ...all religions all genders all sexes all disabilities...they even kill fellow muslims. they are insane

[ThriceShy]

ive terrorism. 33000 innocents killed last year by isis ...all religions all genders all sexes all disabilities...they even kill fellow muslims. they are insane

One of them has just killed a mother in front of her 3 year old son in Paris.

They are absolutely the most dangerous problem facing the world today. Gun control and LGBT issues are red herrings, deliberately added by the left to muddy the waters.

[Walter White]

Has the video of that guy walking out of the Sky News debate been posted yet?

[the truth]

Has the video of that guy walking out of the Sky News debate been posted yet? yeah he was offended sky news not recognising it as a gay hate crime, the interviewer seemed to imply that isis are out to get everyone

[ThriceShy]

Has the video of that guy walking out of the Sky News debate been posted yet?

He made a bit of a tit of himself to be honest. And that press preview on sky is a good gig and easy money for a journalist/columnist, but he has ensured that he will never be invited back.

I really can't understand the mentality of storming out because someone disagreed with you. Stick around and fight your case. Don't take your bat and ball home like a spoiled child.

I thought the host, who was twice Owen's age and a proper journalist, handled it extremely well.

[Jack_]

For anyone who feels upset and offended by what's happened in Orlando, this is for you :love:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/video/2016/jun/13/owen-jones-orlando-shooting-massacre-terrorist-will-fail-heres-why-video?CMP=share_btn_tw

[Walter White]

He made a bit of a tit of himself to be honest. And that press preview on sky is a good gig and easy money for a journalist/columnist, but he has ensured that he will never be invited back.

I really can't understand the mentality of storming out because someone disagreed with you. Stick around and fight your case. Don't take your bat and ball home like a spoiled child.

I thought the host, who was twice Owen's age and a proper journalist, handled it extremely well.

Yeah, he did come across as very childish.

[ThriceShy]

Yeah, he did come across as very childish.

He reminded me of Bonnie Langford in Just William.

"Admit this is a LGBT issue or I will scream and scream until I am sick."

[Northern Monkey]

I'm not sure it matters what their sexuality was tbh.They were people in a nightclub and were attacked by a terrorist.People of every sexuality have been killed by these bastards.Not sure what the big deal is with the semantics of these poor people's sexuality.It can happen to any of us who are in a public place.

[Jack_]

I'm not sure it matters what their sexuality was tbh.They were people in a nightclub and were attacked by a terrorist.People of every sexuality have been killed by these bastards.Not sure what the big deal is with the semantics of these poor people's sexuality.It can happen to any of us who are in a public place.

Because they were predominantly LBGT people in a gay nightclub and it proves that it some facets of our society they are still not accepted. It's pretty straightforward really

And acknowledging that this was a hate crime does not diminish all of the other attacks that have taken place

[armand.kay]

they were targeted specifically because of their sexuality so their sexuality has everything to do with it.

[user104658]

Because they were predominantly LBGT people in a gay nightclub and it proves that it some facets of our society they are still not accepted. It's pretty straightforward really

Exactly, the attack (whether motivated by ISIS allegiance or personal homophobia) was targetted specifically at a group of people as a statement; that their lifestyle is sinful / wrong / should not be accepted. Now, religious extremists tend to believe this about all sorts of aspects of life in the west, but it can't be ignored that homosexuality - and our acceptance of it - is one of the biggest of the things that conflict with their ideologies.

So it is VITAL that we don't ignore that aspect of this attack. Not because "only gay people can own the hurt caused" as those screeching bullies (they tagteamed and talked over him; NOT good journalism ffs) on Sky News would have us believe is the intent... but because it is important to show solidarity... to stand up and say "We know what you want, we know what you are trying to do, but you will fail, and the people and lifestyles that you hate will ALWAYS be accepted and embraced in our countries, no matter what you do." It is EVEN MORE important that straight people do this.

VERY SADLY from reading and seeing various things since this tragedy, I am starting to realise that the truth is... for a large number of people that simply is still not the case at all.

[bots]

i honestly don't see what all this arguing over semantics is intended to achieve, as if labeling it one thing or another makes it worse/better depending on which side you are on.

It was a hate crime specifically against a particular group, it was a terrorist attack. The man may have been mentally unstable, maybe not. It really doesn't matter. It was still an horrific act. No normal person would consider taking that action against anyone, its not typical behaviour. Its not indicative of a trend. There aren't suddenly going to be 100 more that will say, I will now do that too, because it just isn't normal.

Its heartbreaking that there are people like that in the world, but its bound to happen with the numbers of population that we have. Compound that with a terrorist group that are excusing their behaviour by latching on to an interpretation of a religion, that itself has millions of followers and you will get these crazy people.

[ThriceShy]

they were targeted specifically because of their sexuality so their sexuality has everything to do with it.

You have no evidence they were targeted for their sexuality,

[ThriceShy]

Exactly, the attack (whether motivated by ISIS allegiance or personal homophobia) was targetted specifically at a group of people as a statement; that their lifestyle is sinful / wrong / should not be accepted. Now, religious extremists tend to believe this about all sorts of aspects of life in the west, but it can't be ignored that homosexuality - and our acceptance of it - is one of the biggest of the things that conflict with their ideologies.

So it is VITAL that we don't ignore that aspect of this attack. Not because "only gay people can own the hurt caused" as those screeching bullies (they tagteamed and talked over him; NOT good journalism ffs) on Sky News would have us believe is the intent... but because it is important to show solidarity... to stand up and say "We know what you want, we know what you are trying to do, but you will fail, and the people and lifestyles that you hate will ALWAYS be accepted and embraced in our countries, no matter what you do." It is EVEN MORE important that straight people do this.

VERY SADLY from reading and seeing various things since this tragedy, I am starting to realise that the truth is... for a large number of people that simply is still not the case at all.

So why were he and his wife scoping other targets including disney world?

[user104658]

So why were he and his wife scoping other targets including disney world?
The fact that they considered other targets has absolutely no bearing on the fact that the target they did choose was, at least in a significant part, chosen because it was a gay club.

You've aptly demonstrated over several pages that you don't understand that nor the implications so I feel it would be a waste of time to elaborate any further.

[ThriceShy]

The fact that they considered other targets has absolutely no bearing on the fact that the target they did choose was, at least in a significant part, chosen because it was a gay club.

You've aptly demonstrated over several pages that you don't understand that nor the implications so I feel it would be a waste of time to elaborate any further.

How do you know it was chosen because it was a gay club?:shrug:

The shooter hasn't said that and the wife is only now speaking to the FBI. Aren't you going to wait until the investigation is done before deciding on why a particular target was picked?

[user104658]

How do you know it was chosen because it was a gay club?:shrug:

The shooter hasn't said that and the wife is only now speaking to the FBI. Aren't you going to wait until the investigation is done before deciding on why a particular target was picked?

Because the fact that a religious extremist attacking a gay club is linked to the fact that it is a gay club is plainly ****ing obvious to anyone with half a brain and half an understanding of extremist ideologies and religious prejudices. Religious extremists are known to be homophobic because their little books tell them to be. One such extremist murdered dozens of gay people, in a gay club. It is relevant.

And no I don't need to wait for the important men in their important suits with their important jobs to tell me what I think. I'm capable of getting there without help, amazingly.

[Amy Jade]

His father and wife said he hated gays and would get angry seeing a gay couple together so even if he did apparently scope out Disney he evidently had issues with homosexuality or else why chose that especific club?

I don't beleven for a second it was random

[Tom4784]

Everyone is being so silly, It had nothing to do with the LGBT community, he just happened to target gay people at a gay club during Pride Month.

It could have happened to anyone.

[Ammi]

...well, whatever hates he felt and whoever he felt those hates toward, there was only one hate that he acted on with his death weapons and only one hate that ended those lives and only one hate that was targeted..whatever else that was in his head, that will never change, that gay people only were the target of this terrorist act of hate...making it by definition, a terrorist act of hate toward the LGBT community...

[VanessaFeltz.]

some people need to stop playing with words it is really annoying me.

[Cherie]

Think its more to do him having been radicalised online, pledging allegiance to ISIS and carrying out a targeted attack on the LGBT community

:clap1:

[kirklancaster]

...well, whatever hates he felt and whoever he felt those hates toward, there was only one hate that he acted on with his death weapons and only one hate that ended those lives and only one hate that was targeted..whatever else that was in his head, that will never change, that gay people only were the target of this terrorist act of hate...making it by definition, a terrorist act of hate toward the LGBT community...

:clap1::clap1::clap1: I hope the COWARDLY terrorist bastard rots in hell for eternity.

[Crimson Dynamo]

psychopathic tendencies: check
religion from birth: check
Living in a place that is not his home and feeling incongruous: check
At odds with true sexuality: check
Availability of combat weaponry: check
Feeling isolated and ashamed due to sexuality: check
Going to the club and still feeling it and getting rage about people who are out and getting partners: check
depression: check
suicidal thoughts: check
rage: check

murder

[Cherie]

Or radicalised and takes on a soft target ..check

[user104658]

Or radicalised and takes on a soft target ..check

You say that like "being radicalised" is something that just happens, like stubbing your toe. All of the things that LT listed above are ways that a person might become radicalised in the first place.

[Livia]

psychopathic tendencies: check
religion from birth: check
Living in a place that is not his home and feeling incongruous: check
At odds with true sexuality: check
Availability of combat weaponry: check
Feeling isolated and ashamed due to sexuality: check
Going to the club and still feeling it and getting rage about people who are out and getting partners: check
depression: check
suicidal thoughts: check
rage: check

murder

A perfect candidate as far as IS is concerned then.

"...

Supporters of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria from all over the world should attack citizens of Western states such as the US, France and UK, according to a statement by the group’s spokesman.

Abu Mohammed al Adnani urged the group’s supporters: “If you can kill a disbelieving American or European – especially the spiteful and filthy French – or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State, then rely upon Allah, and kill him in any manner or way, however it may be,” he said.

..."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-urges-more-attacks-on-western-disbelievers-9749512.html

[Cherie]

You say that like "being radicalised" is something that just happens, like stubbing your toe. All of the things that LT listed above are ways that a person might become radicalised in the first place.

LT is focussing on him being gay, as you say there are many reasons people become radicalised, we have no idea if he was gay all we know is he visited the club, he also visited a Disney Mall that doesn't make him a serial shopper

[ThriceShy]

His father and wife said he hated gays and would get angry seeing a gay couple together so even if he did apparently scope out Disney he evidently had issues with homosexuality or else why chose that especific club?

I don't beleven for a second it was random

If he got angry seeing gay men kissing then why would he attend a gay club at least 6 times and have a profile on a gay dating site?:shrug:

You would avoid the club if you couldn't stand to see gay men together.

[Livia]

If he got angry seeing gay men kissing then why would he attend a gay club at least 6 times and have a profile on a gay dating site?:shrug:

You would avoid the club if you couldn't stand to see gay men together.

Because time spent in reconnaissance is seldom wasted.

[ThriceShy]

...well, whatever hates he felt and whoever he felt those hates toward, there was only one hate that he acted on with his death weapons and only one hate that ended those lives and only one hate that was targeted..whatever else that was in his head, that will never change, that gay people only were the target of this terrorist act of hate...making it by definition, a terrorist act of hate toward the LGBT community...

But the new info seems to suggest that he was gay himself. He had a profile on a gay dating app and would try and pick up men in that club.

The perpetrator of this was gay so they were killed by a member of their own community. If he were straight then you might have a point.

[ThriceShy]

Because time spent in reconnaissance is seldom wasted.

What we are hearing is that he actively tried to pick men up during those visits. And you don't need a gay dating profile to do reconnaissance on a club.

He was gay, or at least bisexual. And I think he shot the club up because it was convenient to shoot up a place he knew well. Just like the san bernardino couple shot up his workplace.