Would you date a transsexual?

[Northern Monkey]

Trans women are still on the same level as Men as far as physical strength goes so can never be a victim in the same way as a woman. That will never change. They only had one muscle removed not the strength related ones.

Exactly why i’m against transsexual women competing against real women in sports.

[Jake.]

And just like that, domestic abuse against men is solved!

[Mokka]

What is your definition of woman, that includes male people? have never heard one, ever.



India is a transwoman. India will always be a transwoman. Unless India decides to detransition, at which stage India is a man. But India will never be a 'woman' unless...the meaning of woman has changed, in which case I would love to hear what the new meaning is.

Again, please let me know what the definition of woman is, if not adult human female.

India identified as woman her whole life... but didn't have the means to make that transition, nor the societal backing, till later in life.
India is a woman. This is why being referred to as him or he is grating to her.

Honestly though Vicky.. I have read enough of you transphobic views to know there is no point in discussing this with you. But India is a woman. She went into the house as a woman. Is she a bit of a part with issues... yes... as are most CBB contestants. But she is a woman.

[Vicky.]

Tbf, I too would define someone like India as a woman. The main difference is I could also define someone like India as a transwoman too, which can't be said for 99%+ of women.

I know a lot of people say 'transwomen are women'. I would genuinely love to hear an explanation of what a woman is, if it includes transwomen.

I don't understand what on earth is so wrong about saying as transwoman is a transwoman. Why must a transwoman be an actual woman. Trans is a large part of who they are, why the need to erase this? I would actually say this whole 'transwoman are women' thing is transphobic as it is making out that trans is something that needs to be hidden..like a dirty little secret!

[Vicky.]

India identified as woman her whole life... but didn't have the means to make that transition, nor the societal backing, till later in life.
India is a woman. This is why being referred to as him or he is grating to her.

Honestly though Vicky.. I have read enough of you transphobic views to know there is no point in discussing this with you. But India is a woman. She went into the house as a woman. Is she a bit of a part with issues... yes... as are most CBB contestants. But she is a woman.

Again, what is your definition of a woman if it is not adult human female? Words need to actually mean something :laugh:

And thank you. Transphobia is such a meaningless term these days anyway. I take that as a compliment.

[Brillopad]

Oh please.

You do women a disservice bringing the victim word into it.

Men can be victim to domestic abuse from women too you know.

Usually because they are too nice to hit back and defend themselves. The women know that and are cowards. But the amount of men killed through domestic violence bears no resemblance to that of female victims of domestic violence. Going off point a bit though aren’t we.

[Withano]

I know a lot of people say 'transwomen are women'. I would genuinely love to hear an explanation of what a woman is, if it includes transwomen.

I don't understand what on earth is so wrong about saying as transwoman is a transwoman. Why must a transwoman be an actual woman. Trans is a large part of who they are, why the need to erase this? I would actually say this whole 'transwoman are women' thing is transphobic as it is making out that trans is something that needs to be hidden..like a dirty little secret!

I guess I prioritise the mind they have today over the genitals they had at birth, I'm guessing you don't. India is a woman, and she knows this, and thats good enough for me.

[Vicky.]

I guess I prioritise the mind they have today over the genitals they had at birth, I'm guessing you don't. India is a woman, and she knows this, and thats good enough for me.

So what is a woman then?

[Jake.]

Usually because they are too nice to hit back and defend themselves. The women know that and are cowards. But the amount of men killed through domestic violence bears no resemblance to that of female victims of domestic violence. Going off point a bit though aren’t we.

Proves that strength isn’t only physical then really doesn’t it

[Marsh.]

Usually because they are too nice to hit back and defend themselves. The women know that and are cowards. But the amount of men killed through domestic violence bears no resemblance to that of female victims of domestic violence. Going off point a bit though aren’t we.
Where did you do your research into this?

[Withano]

So what is a woman then?

A person that considers themselves female. I think you're overthinking it (more than me anyway), its quite a simple thing for me.

Edit: I suppose woman/man only applies to adults, boys/girls before then.

[Marsh.]

That considers themselves?

So if I consider myself a woman right now then I am?

[Vicky.]

Trans women are still on the same level as Men as far as physical strength goes so can never be a victim in the same way as a woman. That will never change. They only had one muscle removed not the strength related ones.

This is generally false. Most of mens strength comes from testosterone. Transwomen who are on estrogen will therefor not have as much testosterone in their bodies so they will not be as strong as an average man. of course theres bone structure and muscle mass and such also, but broadly speaking, lowering ones testosterone makes one weaker. hence men being (as a group, not individually) stronger than women to start with.

[Withano]

That considers themselves?

So if I consider myself a woman right now then I am?

If you want to live as a female because you consider yourself to be one then yes.. i feel like you dont actually though, and this is all a metaphorical 'HA LOOPHOLE' typed thing.

[Brillopad]

Where did you do your research into this?

The stats on female victims are pretty well known. If as many men were being killed at the hands of their female partners we would know about it. Please don’t try to undermine the seriousness of domestic violence to try and prove a point on transgenders - it’s inappropriate and I have no intention of biting any further.

[Marsh.]

If you want to live as a female because you consider yourself to be one then yes.. i feel like you dont actually though, and this is all a metaphorical 'HA LOOPHOLE' typed thing.
No. It's spelling out what you just said.

I could want to live life as a pet dog. That doesn't make me a pet dog unless I make the steps to become a dog.

(Yes I'm aware they haven't perfected Species Reassignment Surgery)

[Vicky.]

What is 'living as a female'? Following stereotypes?

[Northern Monkey]

This is generally false. Most of mens strength comes from testosterone. Transwomen who are on estrogen will therefor not have as much testosterone in their bodies so they will not be as strong as an average man. of course theres bone structure and muscle mass and such also, but broadly speaking, lowering ones testosterone makes one weaker. hence men being (as a group, not individually) stronger than women to start with.

That’s true.That’s why steroids work.When i was younger I actually tried them and increased my bench press by 30kg.They work.

Edited to add:Trans women will still have more muscle mass though and will be stronger.

[jaxie]

Thanks Cherie, I'm actually fine with it, I've talked about my sexuality before on here - will do again, if it was relevant to the discussion ofcourse.

I think Livia was quite clear with her first response.

No, I am not attracted to transsexuals.

But you wouldn’t know unless they told you :conf2:

So up until the point of sleeping with someone... you’d form a relationship with them and then all of a sudden they just become unattractive?

https://i.amz.mshcdn.com/T5MPLvBYkF2U2inaQ6nraMX_S6M=/950x534/filters:quality(90)/2016%2F03%2F14%2Fb4%2Fmenshealtht.a4aec.jpg

So you think within one minute of meeting this man you’d click that he was trans? I very very much doubt that but if that’s the story you want to tell go for it

none of you have answered Smithy though, which speaks volumes

So come on Livia how many have you dated

I think hes asking you to think metaphorically, in a situation where you meet that blatantly attractive man, at what point would he become an unattractive transman?

Christ at least some people on this site have common sense

So its more your issue than theirs? (I'm not saying you're wrong but just to clarify, this is in your own head?)

It is a personal choice, but others like LT clarified that he is turned off by big hands and big feet, which is fair enough, thats his personal choice. Your personal choice (and Livia's) seems to be with the word trans itself being the turn off... which seems more your problem than theirs?

You and the fear of a constructed penis, lol snunday afternoon on the tibb forum, more tea vicar?

But that is to do with words. You would be physically into that man, until you learn he is a transman? (Unless youre an expert at spotting 'constructed penis', I'd argue that your issue is only in your own mind)

I'm with you. It is hard to believe that Livia has a chromosome fetish.

I simply asked you to answer a question, and even clarified in my post that you wasnt wrong in your answer, you dont have to discuss your preference if you dont want to. But I've concluded from your posts that you wouldnt date a trans because of the word trans, now I'm asking if I'm right or wrong? You dont need to get defensive.

No not at all, your answers didnt make sense to me, so I wanted to clarify if I was right. LT's answer did make sense to me. I don't care what gender yoh are, many men may answer the same way as you, and I'd ask them the same questions, some women may answer in a similar way to LT, and I'd understand where theyre coming from.

[Brillopad]

This is generally false. Most of mens strength comes from testosterone. Transwomen who are on estrogen will therefor not have as much testosterone in their bodies so they will not be as strong as an average man. of course theres bone structure and muscle mass and such also, but broadly speaking, lowering ones testosterone makes one weaker. hence men being (as a group, not individually) stronger than women to start with.

Fair point I guess - but they are still stronger than biological women.

[Marsh.]

The stats on female victims are pretty well known. If as many men were being killed at the hands of their female partners we would know about it. Please don’t try to undermine the seriousness of domestic violence to try and prove a point on transgenders - it’s inappropriate and I have no intention of biting any further.
Biting? We're having a discussion. If that offends you then feel free to leave.

I was referring more to you seemingly confirming that most male victims of domestic violence are only so because they're too polite to hit back as opposed to being an actual victim from someone abusing their mentally and maybe physically weaker partner.

[Northern Monkey]

Fair point I guess - but they are still stronger than biological women.

Yes.Still more muscle mass

[Vicky.]

Fair point I guess - but they are still stronger than biological women.

Oh yes, definitely. On an overall level, its silly to get into this 'this woman may be stronger than this man' as obviously there are outliers to all groups.

[Brillopad]

I think Livia was quite clear with her first response.

Not pretty. Only disturbing.

[Withano]

What is 'living as a female'? Following stereotypes?

Whatever each individual wants it to be, India clearly wants to be a female, clearly believes that she is, from my perspective that makes her a woman... and Luke A is a man.. but they are also a transwoman and transman from my perspective too.

For me, it is more to do with their brain, and less to do with their genitals, and thats the definition that I use.

[Jake.]

Not pretty. Only disturbing.

I’d say the view that men who’re victims of domestic abuse are just “too nice” to hit back is pretty disturbing too

[Marsh.]

Not pretty. Only disturbing.
What's disturbing about it? :shrug:

[Rob!]

I’d say the view that men who’re victims of domestic abuse are just “too nice” to hit back is pretty disturbing too

And the concept that they are 'cowards' to be down right offensive.

[Marsh.]

Whatever each individual wants it to be, India clearly wants to be a female, clearly believes that she is, from my perspective that makes her a woman... and Luke A is a man.. but they are also a transwoman and transman from my perspective too.

For me, it is more to do with their brain, and less to do with their genitals, and thats the definition that I use.
But if we were to go by brain then it makes them even less the sex that they want to be.

That's the one thing that can't be artificially changed.

[Withano]

I think Livia was quite clear with her first response.

Yes, I understand that Livia could be attracted to a person up until she learns they have the wrong chromosomes - (which wasnt actually clear in the first post) shes entitled to that, its an internal feeling, and its her feeling. Idg what point you were making.

[Northern Monkey]

Whatever each individual wants it to be, India clearly wants to be a female, clearly believes that she is, from my perspective that makes her a woman... and Luke A is a man.. but they are also a transwoman and transman from my perspective too.

For me, it is more to do with their brain, and less to do with their genitals, and thats the definition that I use.

The brain is just another organ though.Biologically You can’t discount the rest of the body imo as it’s all part of the package

[Brillopad]

Biting? We're having a discussion. If that offends you then feel free to leave.

I was referring more to you seemingly confirming that most male victims of domestic violence are only so because they're too polite to hit back as opposed to being an actual victim from someone abusing their mentally and maybe physically weaker partner.

I think the scenario you present there is valid but quite a small percentage. It is much more common in women so therefore a bigger problem. That doesn’t mean any male victims are less important just not so prevalent.

[Marsh.]

Yes, I understand that Livia could be attracted to a person up until she learns they have the wrong chromosomes - (which wasnt actually clear in the first post) shes entitled to that, its an internal feeling, and its her feeling. Idg what point you were making.
It's not just that though. As Vicky kindly described in graphic detail they are physically very different.

[Withano]

But if we were to go by brain then it makes them even less the sex that they want to be.

That's the one thing that can't be artificially changed.

The brain is just another organ though.Biologically You can’t discount the rest of the body imo as it’s all part of the package

There are several differences between the typical male brain and the typical female brains and study's have shown than trans' brains are more similar to the typical brain of the sex they feel as if they are. Thats just a thing we know now. If a person believes they are either male or female, then they, to me, will be a man or a woman. idc what genitals they were born with

(I presumed this was still part of the what is the definition of a woman convo I was having, so answered in that way?)

[Brillopad]

I’d say the view that men who’re victims of domestic abuse are just “too nice” to hit back is pretty disturbing too

Why - it isn’t exactly an insult. I just mean that some men are too big to hit a woman. That makes them better than the women involved.

[Withano]

It's not just that though. As Vicky kindly described in graphic detail they are physically very different.

Right, but Livia seemed interested in chromosomes, I understand that Vicky has her reasons too. Any reason is fine, i was never telling people they had to be interested in transpeople, i was just keen to find out why.

[Marsh.]

There are several differences between the typical male brain and the typical female brains and study's have shown than trans' brains are more similar to the typical brain of the sex they feel as if they are. Thats just a thing we know now. If a person believes they are either male or female, then they, to me, will be a man or a woman. idc what genitals they were born with

(I presumed this was still part of the what is the definition of a woman convo I was having, so answered in that way?)
There's a study I read that said trans people tend to have a unique brain compared to traditional male and female brains.

Therefore supporting Vicky's notion that they are trans rather than simply man or woman I suppose. :shrug:

[Northern Monkey]

Why - it isn’t exactly an insult. I just mean that some men are too big to hit a woman. That makes them better than the women involved.

There is truth in what you say.
Most men i know wouldn’t hit back full force and if they did they’d be the one in the police cell that night.

[Jake.]

Why - it isn’t exactly an insult. I just mean that some men are too big to hit a woman. That makes them better than the women involved.

Because to me that’s implying that the reason they’re victims of domestic abuse is due to them being “too nice”, when it’s more to do with the woman being a domineering piece of ****

[Vicky.]

Whatever each individual wants it to be, India clearly wants to be a female, clearly believes that she is, from my perspective that makes her a woman... and Luke A is a man.. but they are also a transwoman and transman from my perspective too.

For me, it is more to do with their brain, and less to do with their genitals, and thats the definition that I use.

So woman/man is a state of mind, not actual measurable real things?

I guess that makes sense. In a way.

[Withano]

There's a study I read that said trans people tend to have a unique brain compared to traditional male and female brains.

Therefore supporting Vicky's notion that they are trans rather than simply man or woman I suppose. :shrug:

Many identify as trans too tbf, some do not. Each to their own.

[Brillopad]

Yes, I understand that Livia could be attracted to a person up until she learns they have the wrong chromosomes - (which wasnt actually clear in the first post) shes entitled to that, its an internal feeling, and its her feeling. Idg what point you were making.

But you still try to make it sound wrong in some way. Many feel the same way including me. There is nothing wrong with not being attracted to a transgender. You do get that!

[bots]

So woman/man is a state of mind, not actual measurable real things?

I guess that makes sense. In a way.

except that science has identified it by chromosomes, and it is biologically accurate

[jaxie]

There are several differences between the typical male brain and the typical female brains and study's have shown than trans' brains are more similar to the typical brain of the sex they feel as if they are. Thats just a thing we know now. If a person believes they are either male or female, then they, to me, will be a man or a woman. idc what genitals they were born with

(I presumed this was still part of the what is the definition of a woman convo I was having, so answered in that way?)

So you are saying, hand on heart, you would date anyone of any sex as long as they believed they were the sex you prefer?

[Brillopad]

Because to me that’s implying that the reason they’re victims of domestic abuse is due to them being “too nice”, when it’s more to do with the woman being a domineering piece of ****

I already said those women were cowards. Anyone who physically attacks someone they know either can’t or won’t fight back is a coward.

[Withano]

So woman/man is a state of mind, not actual measurable real things?

I guess that makes sense. In a way.

Thats how I interpret it yeh. If I woke up with a vagina and tits tomorrow I would be confused (obviously) but also KNOW that I was in the wrong body, and I truly believe that if I was born that way, I would still KNOW that I was a man in the wrong, and I would want you, and everybody else to acknowledge me as a man. I wouldnt care that I didnt have those genitals, my brain would still know that I was a man regardless of what parts I had.

And I use that logic to give pronouns to others

[Withano]

But you still try to make it sound wrong in some way. Many feel the same way including me. There is nothing wrong with not being attracted to a transgender. You do get that!

I literally said that you are allowed to have that opinion or something along those lines. That was true when I first responded, its still true now.

Edit: I said "I'm not saying you're wrong but just to clarify, this is in your own head"

You are not wrong, any internal feeling is a legitimate reason to not be attracted to somebody. Its just not one that makes sense to me personally

[Withano]

So you are saying, hand on heart, you would date anyone of any sex as long as they believed they were the sex you prefer?

Yes, 37% of the forum said that, I was one of them. I understand there is 63% of the forum that thinks differently, and thats okay too.

[Vicky.]

except that science has identified it by chromosomes, and it is biologically accurate

Well yes I know, I was more interested in those who say that transwomen are actual women rather than transwomen. To say that, there must be a different meaning of 'woman' than adult human female. That meaning, that is not about biology, is what I was trying to figure out. Am actually glad withano gave that answer as I can kind of understand now where people are coming from when they say that now. Usually the answer given is 'anyone who identifies as a woman' which is clearly a nonsensical definition as its circular.

As for male brains and female brains...jury is out. Brains tend to be mosaic and they actually change based on life experiences. For example a taxi driver can be identified as a taxi driver based on brain scans. I know sex dysphoria shows on brain scans though, same as anorexia can be identified on brain scans.

[jaxie]

Yes, 37% of the forum said that, I was one of them. I understand there is 63% of the forum that thinks differently, and thats okay too.

I think that is too simplistic a view. If you don't fancy girls/or boys and the person looks like what you don't fancy. Them thinking they are isn't going to cut it.

[chuff me dizzy]

Oh, so a woman who can't have children isn't a woman? You get better every day, don't you?

Please read what I said " or has the means to do so" don't change my wording or meaning

[Withano]

I think that is too simplistic a view. If you don't fancy girls/or boys and the person looks like what you don't fancy. Them thinking they are isn't going to cut it.

Thats not what the question asked though.

[bots]

Well yes I know, I was more interested in those who say that transwomen are actual women rather than transwomen. To say that, there must be a different meaning of 'woman' than adult human female. That meaning, that is not about biology, is what I was trying to figure out. Am actually glad withano gave that answer as I can kind of understand now where people are coming from when they say that now. Usually the answer given is 'anyone who identifies as a woman' which is clearly a nonsensical definition as its circular.

As for male brains and female brains...jury is out. Brains tend to be mosaic and they actually change based on life experiences. For example a taxi driver can be identified as a taxi driver based on brain scans. I know sex dysphoria shows on brain scans though, same as anorexia can be identified on brain scans.

but at its fundamental level, its still biology, as it is biology and chemistry that dictate the operation of the brain. You receive a particular stimuli and your body's biology shapes its reaction to that stimuli across the extent of your body including your brain.

[chuff me dizzy]

Trans women are still on the same level as Men as far as physical strength goes so can never be a victim in the same way as a woman. That will never change. They only had one muscle removed not the strength related ones.

Exactly !

[Marsh.]

Please read what I said " or has the means to do so" don't change my wording or meaning
Read what he said. Some women do not have the means to do so.

[Rob!]

Please read what I said " or has the means to do so" don't change my wording or meaning

Yes, and some women do NOT have the means to do so. There are a plethora of ailments, illnesses and disabilities that take away those means, so are they not real women?

[Vicky.]

but at its fundamental level, its still biology, as it is biology and chemistry that dictate the operation of the brain. You receive a particular stimuli and your body's biology shapes its reaction to that stimuli across the extent of your body including your brain.

Yes, tis not me you need to be arguing with about brain sex. I think brain sex is a load of bollocks and given how much money and time has been thrown at studying it there would have been some kind of proof by now if it existed :p

I also think woman is an adult human female, and man is an adult human male.

And that transwomen are transwomen, not women. And transmen are transmen, not men.

I just try and understand when the conversations actually happen, as generally if you ask questions someone just screams 'transphobe' and runs away. Withano and me are always polar opposites on this, but seem to be able to talk about it without resorting to insults. Same with jamie876 (or whatever the numbers are). Makes no sense to be trying to shut down conversations with 'you are a bigot' as happens on near every other site (bar mumsnet) when it IS a quite fascinating topic that should be discussed. The ridiculous 'nodebate' hashtag surrounding this issue is just that...ridiculous and backwards.

[chuff me dizzy]

Read what he said. Some women do not have the means to do so.

They are born women,very rarely a woman can be born without a womb, but she has everything else to make a baby, India will NEVER have what it takes so therefore will never be a woman

[Marsh.]

They are born women,very rarely a woman can be born without a womb, but she has everything else to make a baby, India will NEVER have what it takes so therefore will never be a woman
Yes very rarely but women with wombs can be infertile and born so.

[Vicky.]

Infertile women are still of the sex that has the potential to bear children. Infertile men are still of the sex that have the potential to sire children. Is surely the easy way of putting this?!

[Rob!]

They are born women,very rarely a woman can be born without a womb, but she has everything else to make a baby, India will NEVER have what it takes so therefore will never be a woman

You've got such a bizarre view as to what makes a woman though. According to you, it's nothing to do with chromosomes, or oestrogen, or technicalities, it's literally whether they're a child producing factory. What a depressing outlook on your own gender.

[Brillopad]

Yes, and some women do NOT have the means to do so. There are a plethora of ailments, illnesses and disabilities that take away those means, so are they not real women?

They usually have a womb and a uterus. A transgender does not.

[Marsh.]

They usually have a womb and a uterus. A transgender does not.
So when a woman has her womb removed? It takes away her womanlyness?

[chuff me dizzy]

Yes very rarely but women with wombs can be infertile and born so.

Being infertile doesn't stop you been a full woman, what a cruel thing to say :umm2:

[Withano]

Being infertile doesn't stop you been a full woman, what a cruel thing to say :umm2:

You literally said that though

[chuff me dizzy]

You've got such a bizarre view as to what makes a woman though. According to you, it's nothing to do with chromosomes, or oestrogen, or technicalities, it's literally whether they're a child producing factory. What a depressing outlook on your own gender.

A gender India will never be part of

[Marsh.]

Being infertile doesn't stop you been a full woman, what a cruel thing to say :umm2:
I said not all women are born with the means to have children?

What you just said was stated in your post pet.

[chuff me dizzy]

Infertile women are still of the sex that has the potential to bear children. Infertile men are still of the sex that have the potential to sire children. Is surely the easy way of putting this?!

:clap1:

[Rob!]

Being infertile doesn't stop you been a full woman, what a cruel thing to say :umm2:

It's literally what you just said, so yeah, it was cruel.

A gender India will never be part of

And you have the deciding vote on that do you? Newsflash: you don't. Fortunately, there are people in the world who are a LOT more progressive than you. You've literally said in this thread that if you don't have a womb or a uterus, you're not a woman. Do you really think you're the best person to decide what constitutes a woman? :umm2:

[Mokka]

They are born women,very rarely a woman can be born without a womb, but she has everything else to make a baby, India will NEVER have what it takes so therefore will never be a woman

What is born woman though... especially in the case of looks and feels like a woman but has no womb. You are putting your own bias parameters on gender.

It genetic... yes. But chromosomal differences are appearing all the time. Some people are born with both types of sexual organs. It's chemical... some bodies make or are exposed to different variations of hormones that in higher or lower amounts make your sexuality differ. It's mental... it's emotional. How can anyone at this point say that you are born boy so you are boy. We all know so much more know scientifically and psychologically that this isn't the case. Just because you are in denial that the world isn't black and white and put into boxes the way your generation set it up... where being who you were was a crime for hundreds if thousands of people... doesn't make you rt.

[Barry.]

I would yes if they had everything changed.

[bots]

It's literally what you just said, so yeah, it was cruel.



And you have the deciding vote on that do you? Newsflash: you don't. Fortunately, there are people in the world who are a LOT more progressive than you. You've literally said in this thread that if you don't have a womb or a uterus, you're not a woman. Do you really think you're the best person to decide what constitutes a woman? :umm2:

with respect, she is in a far better position to say what constitutes a woman than you are, and its very telling that peoples words are being twisted on this thread to try and make them look bad when they just disagree with the concept of a trans woman being the same as a biological woman etc.

[Rob!]

with respect, she is in a far better position to say what constitutes a woman than you are, and its very telling that peoples words are being twisted on this thread to try and make them look bad when they just disagree with the concept of a trans woman being the same as a biological woman etc.

Not when her views are that a woman is only a woman when she's popping out kids. Surely even other women would find that offensive?

[chuff me dizzy]

What is born woman though... especially in the case of looks and feels like a woman but has no womb. You are putting your own bias parameters on gender.

It genetic... yes. But chromosomal differences are appearing all the time. Some people are born with both types of sexual organs. It's chemical... some bodies make or are exposed to different variations of hormones that in higher or lower amounts make your sexuality differ. It's mental... it's emotional. How can anyone at this point say that you are born boy so you are boy. We all know so much more know scientifically and psychologically that this isn't the case. Just because you are in denial that the world isn't black and white and put into boxes the way your generation set it up... where being who you were was a crime for hundreds if thousands of people... doesn't make you rt.

"My biased perimeters" get a grip love, Im stating facts , A woman is born a woman ,a man is born a man, and this is how it will stay until science comes up with the reproductive capabilities needed for both sexes

[Mokka]

with respect, she is in a far better position to say what constitutes a woman than you are, and its very telling that peoples words are being twisted on this thread to try and make them look bad when they just disagree with the concept of a trans woman being the same as a biological woman etc.

Is she though?
Does being a woman automatically make you in a better constitution to judge other women. I disagree strongly with this logic

[chuff me dizzy]

with respect, she is in a far better position to say what constitutes a woman than you are, and its very telling that peoples words are being twisted on this thread to try and make them look bad when they just disagree with the concept of a trans woman being the same as a biological woman etc.

Goading people until they flip and say something they can report, Livia knew this was on the cards and left the debate ,and thats what Im going to do too ,Ive had my say and despite what anyone says a woman is born a woman and a man is born a man

[Mokka]

"My biased perimeters" get a grip love, Im stating facts , A woman is born a woman ,a man is born a man, and this is how it will stay until science comes up with the reproductive capabilities needed for both sexes

You aren't stating facts... you are stating bias... and very old school thinking. Nothing you are saying is factual. It's all rhetoric

[Marsh.]

"My biased perimeters" get a grip love, Im stating facts , A woman is born a woman ,a man is born a man, and this is how it will stay until science comes up with the reproductive capabilities needed for both sexes
Yes because THAT'S all we are, our reproductive capabilities.

:rolleyes:

[bots]

Is she though?
Does being a woman automatically make you in a better constitution to judge other women. I disagree strongly with this logic

this thread is based on a concept.

Is a trans woman the same as a woman, the people who disagree with the concept, which is a very valid position to take here in the UK, are being made to feel like bigots, when they are nothing of the sort.

All the pulling up over how they express themselves is all related to that fact

[Northern Monkey]

At the end of the day you can’t argue with the facts

Man = Adult human male

Woman = Adult human female

If you feel like you’re the opposite to what you are then you’re trans.

Facts don’t care about feelings

[Mokka]

this thread is based on a concept.

Is a trans woman the same as a woman, the people who disagree with the concept, which is a very valid position to take here in the UK, are being made to feel like bigots, when they are nothing of the sort.

All the pulling up over how they express themselves is all related to that fact

Catch up with the rest of the world and society then... because the concept has already been established.

[bots]

Catch up with the rest of the world and society then... because the concept has already been established.

enough with the insults

[Marsh.]

Goading people until they flip and say something they can report, Livia knew this was on the cards and left the debate ,and thats what Im going to do too ,Ive had my say and despite what anyone says a woman is born a woman and a man is born a man
What a load of crock blaming other people.

You and only you are responsible for the views you hold and choose to express.

Grow up and take some responsibility for your own words.

[Monkey Slut]

Okay...this is something that always comes up in these topics and it's grating because it doesn't make sense, nobody is born a man or woman be them cis or trans.

[Brillopad]

Is she though?
Does being a woman automatically make you in a better constitution to judge other women. I disagree strongly with this logic

You can disagree all you like that doesn’t Make you right. Chuff has a point. Nature gave women the ability to create life. It’s an amazing thing and pretty fundamental to being a woman, but like everything else in life women have the choice on when and whether they have children. It is unlikely transwomen will ever have this choice and experience this.

[Marsh.]

You can disagree all you like that doesn’t Make you right. Chuff has a point. Nature gave women the ability to create life. It’s an amazing thing and pretty fundamental to being a woman, but like everything else in life women have the choice on when and whether they have children. It is unlikely transwomen will ever have this choice and experience this.
It's unlikely infertile women will ever have the choice either. :shrug:

[Marsh.]

Okay...this is something that comes up in these topics and it's grating because it doesn't make sense, nobody is born a man or woman be them cis or trans.
Oh shush. Of course they are.

[AnnieK]

Okay...this is something that comes up in these topics and it's grating because it doesn't make sense, nobody is born a man or woman be them cis or trans.

What are they born then?

[Northern Monkey]

What are they born then?

Baby boy

Baby girl

?

[Vicky.]

A boy or a girl :laugh:

Man and woman are adult humans.


It vaguely annoys me too actually. But everyone knows whats meant

[Brillopad]

It's unlikely infertile women will ever have the choice either. :shrug:

Women can be infertile for many reasons and often the infertility can be rectified. I have had friends who were told they would never have children and did - one went on to have 5 and all naturally. It isn’t all that makes a woman but it is far more fundamental and rewarding than dressing up and having sex.

[Vicky.]

It's unlikely infertile women will ever have the choice either. :shrug:

But they are still of the sex that has the potential to bear young, not of the sex that has the potential to sire young :suspect:

I must be missing something on here. Seemed pretty sure what chuff meant to start with, if clumsily worded

[Marsh.]

Women can be infertile for many reasons and often the infertility can be rectified. I have had friends who were told they would never have children and did - one went on to have 5 and all naturally. It isn’t all that makes a woman but it is far more fundamental and rewarding than dressing up and having sex.
Of course sometimes it's not set in stone.
But the fact is some women cannot and never will be able to have their own children naturally. So it's a little uncomfortable to read that that is the standard by which "real women" are measured.

[Marsh.]

Baby boy

Baby girl

?
Of course. And a boy is a young man and a girl is a young woman.

But I don't think that is what the poster was getting at. They were insinuating everybody is born as neither.

[Vicky.]

I would say the standard against which 'real women' are measured is that...they are female. Not male.

[AnnieK]

Of course. And a boy is a young man and a girl is a young woman.

But I don't think that is what the poster was getting at. They were insinuating everybody is born as neither.

Thats what I was trying to determine.

[Marsh.]

I would say the standard against which 'real women' are measured is that...they are female. Not male.
Fair enough.

But there's an easier way to say that... the way you just did than "a woman who pushes a baby through ha cervix!!!!" [emoji23]

[Monkey Slut]

Of course. And a boy is a young man and a girl is a young woman.

But I don't think that is what the poster was getting at. They were insinuating everybody is born as neither.

No, that's precisely what I was getting at.

[Marsh.]

No, that's precisely what I was getting at.
Well that's just pointless semantics.

Of course people know you're not born an adult.

[Jake.]

I really don’t think it has to come down to such specifics

Refer to somebody as this wish to be referred as

Simple and respectful

[Brillopad]

Of course sometimes it's not set in stone.
But the fact is some women cannot and never will be able to have their own children naturally. So it's a little uncomfortable to read that that is the standard by which "real women" are measured.

Stop twisting - they were born women. Being unlucky enough to suffer with infertility does not make them less of a woman. They are a completely different category to transwomen.

[Rob!]

I really don’t think it has to come down to such specifics

Refer to somebody as this wish to be referred as

Simple and respectful

:clap1:

And if you haven’t got the basic respect to do that, it says something more about you than it does any type of trans person. It’s just ignorance.

[Marsh.]

Stop twisting - they were born women. Being unlucky enough to suffer with infertility does not make them less of a woman. They are a completely different category to transwomen.
I'm not twisting.

I'm pointing out why not just say born women to begin with since the ability to bear children is completely irrelevant.

[Brillopad]

:clap1:

And if you haven’t got the basic respect to do that, it says something more about you than it does any type of trans person. It’s just ignorance.

It’s equally ignorant to try to label people who would not date a trans. No-one is obligated to date a transgender - choice is not just limited to this one small group.

[Rob!]

It’s equally ignorant to try to label people who would not date a trans. No-one is obligated to date a transgender - choice is not just limited to this one small group.

You can’t help who you fall in love with - when Amanda Barrie got married, do you think she figured she’d be married again to a woman at the age of 79?

[Jamie89]

I'd just like to point out that saying "trans women are women" is not the same as saying "trans women are the SAME as non trans women"

It gets said all the time as a way to debunk the argument that trans women are women but I don't view it like that at all.

Trans/cis/black/white/gay/straight/bi... all labels that describe something about a person that isnt related to choice and all highlighting differences in those people, but all can still be considered 'women' in my view. And all can be referred to as either 'women' or "label prefix + women" depending on the conversation if a differentiation is needed in order to discuss that difference. I know the 'trans' one is particularly contentious and this is all a fairly new way of thinking and if you disagree with that then I understand that, but the misinterpretation that saying 'trans women' somehow takes something away from non trans women really bothers me because its not what's meant by it at all.
We do get very hung up on words and labels, I'd suggest that for a trans person those words and labels aren't all that useful since they tend to fall on the perimeter of them, and creating a seperate grouping for them isn't all that helpful since the reason they begin a transition is because of their feeling of being the opposite gender, a trans man doesn't feel like a trans man, he becomes a trans man because he feels like a man. Most of this talk about semantics is just about trying to find a way of including a group of people into society and that should be the priority of these words, not trying to use them as a way of excluding. Or using them to misconstrue what is actually being meant.


I do feel like this is probably off topic though [emoji23] but I wanted to clarify that. It's fascinating seeing all the different views on this, I probably would have predicted the complete opposite for the poll result tbh. I do think the whole argument that happened earlier was just because of people wanting to understand each others views, I know I would have had those same questions but only out of interest and curiosity, nothing malicious. Anyway I know for myself that I consider myself to be gay, I'm attracted to men, but I think our words simplify sexuality to a greater degree than what it actually is. And could I be attracted to somebody that doesn't fall within the norm for that grouping that I'm in, sure, I know I've seen very attractive trans men that I haven't realised were trans men, so at the point of finding out they are trans I think I would just explore it and those feelings and see what happens. Might turn out for whatever reason that I'm not able to continue with it but I wouldn't shut down the idea of it. Honestly what's the worst that will happen? At best it could be a great relationship that I never would have expected would happen.
I don't actually think it comes down solely to sexual preference or sexuality anyway, so much as it comes down to whether or not you view the trans person as being the gender they intend to be. And if you don't then I think it would make sense why you wouldn't be able to continue with it. And if you do, then it's not something that has any bearing on your sexuality.
Issues of gender (and sexuality) are things that are so confusing and outside the realms of us being able to fully understand them though... which is why I think these trans convos always kind of explode [emoji23]

[Vicky.]

I probably would have predicted the complete opposite for the poll result tbh

I would have too. Especially on here, where it is predominately younger members. Since its apparently only us old dinosaurs who believe male and female are real distinct categories of people :laugh:

[Jamie89]

I would have too. Especially on here, where it is predominately younger members. Since its apparently only us old dinosaurs who believe male and female are real distinct categories of people [emoji23]At a guess I'd suggest that that might explain why the result for yes is higher than in the study I posted yesterday? I don't know though, could also just be our small sample size [emoji23] I don't think age necessarily has to be a big factor in it. I think from the comments there are a range of views between younger and older members.
I do consider male and female to be different categories btw... I just think it's all more complicated than that when discussing trans, but we could go round and round [emoji23]

[Brillopad]

You can’t help who you fall in love with - when Amanda Barrie got married, do you think she figured she’d be married again to a woman at the age of 79?

If that’s right for Amanda that’s fine. It wouldn’t be right for me and it wouldn’t be right for many others. And no one has the right to judge anyone for not feeling the same way as them on this. People on here have tried today though.

[Withano]

I really don’t think it has to come down to such specifics

Refer to somebody as this wish to be referred as

Simple and respectful

:clap1:

[y.winter]

That was one hell of a discussion though :laugh:

[y.winter]

Romantically it could be great and can work. But as someone said (I can't remember who, it's like 15 pages lol), physically I won't find it attractive (that is the lower part...). I believe it would be less of an issue in the case of being attracted to women, with transwomen not facing the same difficulty down there.
It feels like it's a bit superficial addressing this "area", but romantic and sexual attraction go hand in hand...

[ginkgo]

sure

[chuff me dizzy]

Stop twisting - they were born women. Being unlucky enough to suffer with infertility does not make them less of a woman. They are a completely different category to transwomen.

:clap1: Yes of course they are