Mental health/controversial treatments

[Redway]

Twosugars recommended one time making a long-running thread re. mental illness (Vicky could make this sticky) and I thought in here can go general questions about mental illness and especially controversial shades.

Thought I’d kick-start by mentioning one controversial mental treatment (electroconvulsive therapy/ECT) and challenging the myths about that practice (wholly undeserved) but like I say this is the thread for any questions you’ve got about these things.

Hope you’re alright with me mentioning your name TS.

Edit - link to the ECT post http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344393&page=4 (comment 87)

[Twosugars]

Thank you, Redway, for starting this thread. It should give me a kick to get on with it too.
Look forward to see what we can make of it.

I remember almost begging for ECT a couple of years ago, when none of antidepressants seemed to work. They told me no chance.
Why is it so little used now? Why the stigma? I've heard it is quite a shock (no pun intended) but some psych meds can have some debilitating side-effects too.

[user104658]

Most places still have strict regulations on when ECT can be used, it can only be used "freely" in certain in-patient clinical settings (e.g. If you've been held involuntarily on the grounds of the Mental Health Act). Of course even then it's a voluntary treatment.

It is apparently very effective, it can completely alleviate some forms of clinical depression for some people for a short period of time (sometimes weeks) and offer respite in that way. Also providing that glimpse of the "light at the end of the tunnel" can help people overall, if they've lost sight of what feeling OK actually feels like.

The main issue with it is that the effect is temporary... It wears off after a while and has to be repeated. Also, every time its repeated it becomes less effective (doesn't last as long) so eventually it becomes impractical as an ongoing treatment...

It also varies massively from person to person with some people having massive relief, and others it not doing anything at all.

The procedure itself, apparently, can be distressing for observers but not for the patient themself these days as its done under heavy sedation. But it basically triggers seizures so for anyone watching, it seems pretty barbaric... And obviously was pretty barbaric in the past when it was a less refined procedure and sedation wasn't always used.

[Redway]

Thank you, Redway, for starting this thread. It should give me a kick to get on with it too.
Look forward to see what we can make of it.

I remember almost begging for ECT a couple of years ago, when none of antidepressants seemed to work. They told me no chance.
Why is it so little used now? Why the stigma? I've heard it is quite a shock (no pun intended) but some psych meds can have some debilitating side-effects too.

It’s the best treatment for melancholia (severe depression) but it’s alwats seen as a last resort for emergencies or when three or more treatments have failed partly because several rounds of it are needed in a hospital stay and partly because of the ignorance of the general public. Note I always use melancholia for high-grade psychotic depressions.

I know it’s used for schizophrenia and bipolar mania too. It’s good for pregnant bipolar women who can’t take lithium during the first trimester at least if they have an episode.

What do you want to know re. technique/preparation specifics? Want me to tackle the amnesia situation?

[glibberglobber]

Why is this in SD&N when mental health is about health :facepalm:

If I was looking for an answer to a mental health I wouldn't go to SD&N

Yea , discuss controversial treatments etc etc but make individual threads for that too

[Twosugars]

It’s the best treatment for melancholia (severe depression) but it’s alwats seen as a last resort for emergencies or when three or more treatments have failed partly because several rounds of it are needed in a hospital stay and partly because of the ignorance of the general public. Note I always use melancholia for high-grade psychotic depressions.

I know it’s used for schizophrenia and bipolar mania too. It’s good for pregnant bipolar women who can’t take lithium during the first trimester at least if they have an episode.

What do you want to know re. technique/preparation specifics? Want me to tackle the amnesia situation?

Will it not confuse anybody if melancholia stands for severe psychotic depressions? :worry:

Give us a good intro, Redway: technique/preparation, uses, side-effects plus anything extra you consider useful.

[Twosugars]

Most places still have strict regulations on when ECT can be used, it can only be used "freely" in certain in-patient clinical settings (e.g. If you've been held involuntarily on the grounds of the Mental Health Act). Of course even then it's a voluntary treatment.


That's more or less what I was told.

[JoshBB]

afaik, the therapy helps relieve the symptoms but doesn't really target the 'cause'. so, it's short-term.

i might be wrong ofc

[Maru]

ECT often makes me think of what my doctor suggested to me in the past for something else. They have something that is done for painful bladder where they put you under and pack your bladder full with water, i.e. essentially expanding it... it sounds awful when you think about it, if something is already inflamed and ulcerated, why would you want to expand it?? You'd think expanding something like that would cause significant pain. And it is literally hell at first supposedly, but then it can cause periods of relief for several months after as it does something to "spread" the nerves. I was never quite bad enough to need it done, but it was fascinating...

Sometimes with restless leg, punching it can help things to calm down. Though hard to sleep when I have to sit up to punch myself... but nerves really respond to the weirdest things... We're still learning about chronic pain, but I wouldn't be surprised if depression and physical pain are linked in such a way through the nerves somehow that when there is the ability to treat one, we could probably accommodate the other. Maybe "retrain" the nerves somehow. Like one example, some people have their bladders removed if the symptoms are severe enough (and untreatable)... but sometimes the pain remains as a sort of "phantom pain"... and this is unusually common... I guess it is possible for something to build up overtime overtime that it leaves a physical "mark" on us. Pain is a weird thing... There is a strong link between depression and pain in general, so maybe there are associations made over-time that make it possible to continue to feel symptoms despite "relief"... in the physical sense... and I guess ECT "disrupts" and similar trauma to this effect causes a "numbing" effect?

I was in a study for the use of an anti-depressant drug that helps with pain. A lot of the newer medications are tweaked from what was learned by doctors experimenting with using anti-depressants "off-label" to treat pain... so I feel like the more we explore that area and learn about it, the more effective we'll probably be at treating things like depression, etc... is my hope.

[Jay28jay2]

Is there any way I can hide this thread, I just find it too triggering for me personally because I see it on the side of the website and I’ve read what is on it and itjust reminds me of my current struggle with anxiety and OCD and depression

[Smithy]

Is there any way I can hide this thread, I just find it too triggering for me personally because I see it on the side of the website and I’ve read what is on it and itjust reminds me of my current struggle with anxiety and OCD and depression

It’s better to face and accept your issues than ignore them

The only way to hide it would be to hide the whole SD subforum

[Nicky91]

Why is this in SD&N when mental health is about health :facepalm:

If I was looking for an answer to a mental health I wouldn't go to SD&N

Yea , discuss controversial treatments etc etc but make individual threads for that too

you do have a point somehow, there is a health subforum on here :think:

[glibberglobber]

you do have a point somehow, there is a health subforum on here :think:

Thanks

[glibberglobber]

It’s better to face and accept your issues than ignore them

The only way to hide it would be to hide the whole SD subforum

This is in the wrong subforum. Surely it should be in Health, Beauty and Fashion?

[Cherie]

It’s better to face and accept your issues than ignore them

The only way to hide it would be to hide the whole SD subforum

It could be put in private chat then it wouldn't show up

Pm a mod about it Jay

[Nicky91]

i guess either private chat would be a good choice cause it is something from someone's private lives and those who don't want to see it, won't see it then

health, beauty, fashion subforum it would fit the health bit then

[Niamh.]

It could be put in private chat then it wouldn't show up

Pm a mod about it Jay

I don't know what the other mods think about it but I think it should stay here, while I'm sympathetic to Jay, we can't just hide every thread that could be potentially triggering to someone, where would you draw the line? And I agree with Smithy that Mental health should be spoken about

[Twosugars]

Thank you, Niamh. Your and other mods support for this thread is gratefully appreciated!

Some ideas for future discussion before Redway gives us an overview of ECT:

-noticed there's fair few members on antidepressant medication, so propose creating an anonymous poll in order to identify which meds are taken so that we can then discuss them in more detail; as in any poll thread, there will be an opportunity to post if anybody wishes, but the poll itself would be anonymous
-anxiety as opposed to depression, what is it and its symptoms
-autism
-suicidal ideation (thinking of suicide) - cry for help
-overview of personality disorders - plain introduction listing them and providing symptoms plus when personality traits turn into personality disorders?

Let us know what would you like covered.

[Nicky91]

autism, i also have my own mental health problems in connection to that

i'm mentally more 15 or 16 years old i guess, and i also am socially very awkward

so yeah that's also a reason i had joined these forums to just try and make friends

[Niamh.]

autism, i also have my own mental health problems in connection to that

i'm mentally more 15 or 16 years old i guess, and i also am socially very awkward

so yeah that's also a reason i had joined these forums to just try and make friends

:love: TiBB would be a duller place without you Nicky

[Nicky91]

:love: TiBB would be a duller place without you Nicky

aw thank you Niamh :hug:

[Twosugars]

autism, i also have my own mental health problems in connection to that

i'm mentally more 15 or 16 years old i guess, and i also am socially very awkward

so yeah that's also a reason i had joined these forums to just try and make friends
well in that case you've been very successful, you've made lots of friends. 11th most loved member :clap2:
The spectrum of autism is a fascinating topic. I'd imagine it's more frequent than expected.

[Nicky91]

well in that case you've been very successful, you've made lots of friends. 11th most loved member :clap2:
The spectrum of autism is a fascinating topic. I'd imagine it's more frequent than expected.

true, i think my good sense of humour played a huge part in me becoming 11th most loved member

yeah i have a light form of autism though, i only have the lack of good social interaction bit and being mentally more a teen


you also have severe forms of autism, the ones who can't eat, shower themselves, and are mentally more 4 or 5 years old

[Cherie]

I don't know what the other mods think about it but I think it should stay here, while I'm sympathetic to Jay, we can't just hide every thread that could be potentially triggering to someone, where would you draw the line? And I agree with Smithy that Mental health should be spoken about

I agree it should be spoken about but some people might not want to air it to the the wider community/guests, but of course you are the boss.

[Cherie]

Does everyone believe drugs should be the first point of call or should other therapies be investigated first?

Not a huge fan of drugs for even a headache unless it is a last resort


https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatments/arts-therapies/#.W2xhkChKiUk

[Niamh.]

I agree it should be spoken about but some people might not want to air it to the the wider community/guests, but of course you are the boss.

haha I'm certainly not the boss, that's just my opinion on it :p

[Twosugars]

Does everyone believe drugs should be the first point of call or should other therapies be investigated first?

Not a huge fan of drugs for even a headache unless it is a last resort


https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatments/arts-therapies/#.W2xhkChKiUk

Absolutely, excellent idea for a topic, thank you, Cherie.

Btw, my suggestion of covering drugs isn't me endorsing them as such. It's more to do with the fact that in our present reality that's what is most readily available and that's what doctors prescribe. Psychotherapy is very expensive and its availability on NHS is very limited. Discussing drugs is more of a practical idea of ok, since we take these things, let's see what they're about and how we feel about them.
But your suggestion is very welcome, let's have a look at what else is out there in terms of non-pharmacological approaches.

[Cherie]

Absolutely, excellent idea for a topic, thank you, Cherie.

Btw, my suggestion of covering drugs isn't me endorsing them as such. It's more to do with the fact that in our present reality that's what is most readily available and that's what doctors prescribe. Psychotherapy is very expensive and its availability on NHS is very limited. Discussing drugs is more of a practical idea of ok, since we take these things, let's see what they're about and how we feel about them.
But your suggestion is very welcome, let's have a look at what else is out there in terms of non-pharmacological approaches.

I didn't think you were endorsing drugs 2TS, obviously they work very well in certain cases, I think doctors hand them out a little too readily at times maybe, I was reading an article at the weekend how getting involved in crafts can be very good for mental health

[Niamh.]

I didn't think you were endorsing drugs 2TS, obviously they work very well in certain cases, I think doctors hand them out a little too readily at times maybe, I was reading an article at the weekend how getting involved in crafts can be very good for mental health

Or excising, running etc is good for depression, thankfully its not something I've ever suffered with (although I did lose my best friend to depression when I was a teenager) but from running and exercising myself, it definitely does have that feel good factor, whatever endorphins are released. Having said that I'm no expert and I'm sure drugs are absolutely necessary sometimes

[Twosugars]

I suppose it's the easiest option to prescribe drugs.
Non-drug therapies are always worth exploring. Of course what is useful at any given stage depends on how severe depression is of course.
Obviously when somebody doesn't have energy to get up or wash themselves they're not likely to go running. But there must be other things that could work, like art or nature.

[Twosugars]

I suppose it's the easiest option to prescribe drugs.
Non-drug therapies are always worth exploring. Of course what is useful at any given stage depends on how severe depression is of course.
Obviously when somebody doesn't have energy to get up or wash themselves they're not likely to go running. But there must be other things that could work, like art or nature.

[Twosugars]

sorry for double post, quick reply is playing tricks today

[Niamh.]

I suppose it's the easiest option to prescribe drugs.
Non-drug therapies are always worth exploring. Of course what is useful at any given stage depends on how severe depression is of course.
Obviously when somebody doesn't have energy to get up or wash themselves they're not likely to go running. But there must be other things that could work, like art or nature.

Yeah of course, it can be hard enough to motivate yourself to get out there when you don't have mental health issues!

[Cherie]

I suppose it's the easiest option to prescribe drugs.
Non-drug therapies are always worth exploring. Of course what is useful at any given stage depends on how severe depression is of course.
Obviously when somebody doesn't have energy to get up or wash themselves they're not likely to go running. But there must be other things that could work, like art or nature.

Gardening, working with animals can be very therapeutic, paid work or volunteering as it gives a routine and something to get up (as long as the person isn't agoraphobic)

[Twosugars]

Agree. My dog helped me a lot. And the garden.

[Ammi]

..I agree with Niamh/Smithy..(..and also feel for Jay as well..:hug:..)..in that I do think the public section is the place for this thread and topic..it’s often very hard to acknowledge and talk about mental illness and public but I think it’s a very important thing to do as well for people to say..’yeah I understand the things you feel and I understand your ‘demons’, you know...it’s important for people who suffer with these things to know and realise they’re not alone and how many, many other people feel the same or similar things...

..I also agree with Cherie that medications etc are not necessarily the first point to be looked at because they create a balance that other things may give more self fulfilment and more self worth if explored...so medication may not be required or at least minimalised...but sometimes for some people, medication is the only way also, the only way for that balance depending on the individual...although a same diagnosis can be reached in many specific mental health issues of something like depression for instance...?...it’s also the individual as well and not a one size fits all type of balance that is needed, as in medication because the diagnosis fits the individual as well..which often seems to be the first exploration for some GPs....so yeah explore other ways as well, if it is felt they help in any small or bigger way...


...Twosugars I’m sure you often don’t think so...but you do amazingly, you know...you’re a very mentally strong person and hopefully you’ll realise that as you keep drawing in that strength as you are now..(...even though you don’t realise your strengths, they’re fairly obvious..:hug:..)...you’re talking about it, you’re helping others is a just one thing...but it’s no small thing for anyone else who relates to you and what you go through, it’s a huge thing for them..:hug:..

[Jessica.]

Does everyone believe drugs should be the first point of call or should other therapies be investigated first?

Not a huge fan of drugs for even a headache unless it is a last resort


https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatments/arts-therapies/#.W2xhkChKiUk

I have depression, social anxiety and situational agoraphobia. I am sick, I have a chemical imbalance in my brain. If you break your arm then you are going to put a cast on it until it is well enough to use again. I see the pills I take as a sort of cast for the stage of my life that I am going through now. My pills have helped me a lot, I know it takes many people a while to find what works for them, but if a doctor prescribes them, then they should be taken. There is nothing shameful or wrong about taking the prescribed medicine. If you mess with your dosage or whatever then that is the users problem and nothing to do with the medicine.

I also do non drug therapy too, but I had to wait for a long time.

[Cherie]

I have depression, social anxiety and situational agoraphobia. I am sick, I have a chemical imbalance in my brain. If you break your arm then you are going to put a cast on it until it is well enough to use again. I see the pills I take as a sort of cast for the stage of my life that I am going through now. My pills have helped me a lot, I know it takes many people a while to find what works for them, but if a doctor prescribes them, then they should be taken. There is nothing shameful or wrong about taking the prescribed medicine. If you mess with your dosage or whatever then that is the users problem and nothing to do with the medicine.

I also do non drug therapy too, but I had to wait for a long time.

I never said it was shameful to take drugs, and I never intimated that they don't work for some people, but Doctors do hand out drugs a bit too quickly at times, for instance about 15 years ago they used to routinely hand out Ritalin to kids with ADHD when many didn't need it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23674235

[AnnieK]

I never said it was shameful to take drugs, and I never intimated that they don't work for some people, but Doctors do hand out drugs a bit too quickly at times, for instance about 15 years ago they used to routinely hand out Ritalin to kids with ADHD when many didn't need it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23674235

I agree tablets are handed out too quickly. As most people know on here I lost my mum 3 years ago quite suddenly. I struggled massively with not getting my head round it and went to the docs as everyone said that was the best thing to do. I left my appointment 5 minutes later with a prescription for Citalopram when really I needed a referral to bereavement counselling. The tablets regulated my mood yes (after the most horrific 2 weeks where I felt 100% worse). I never dealt with the bereavement and to a degree dont think I have done yet but I took myself off the tablets after 2+ years.

I suffered with anxiety in the past (brought.on by my own actions but that's another story) so whether the doctor looked at my records and thought this was related I don't know but what I had was massive sadness and unreleased grief, not depression and I think had I spoken with a counsellor I wouldn't have needed tablets.

[smudgie]

I love my happy pills.
I can sit and daydream I am running up that hill.:joker:

[RichardG]

There is a difference between clinical anxiety and depression, and low mood. The former will most likely need medical treatments, the later most likely will not. But I guess with the NHS being so useless and waiting times for any type of general therapy services or whatever often being over a year, maybe that’s why doctors just go straight to medical options? I don’t know.

[Cherie]

I agree tablets are handed out too quickly. As most people know on here I lost my mum 3 years ago quite suddenly. I struggled massively with not getting my head round it and went to the docs as everyone said that was the best thing to do. I left my appointment 5 minutes later with a prescription for Citalopram when really I needed a referral to bereavement counselling. The tablets regulated my mood yes (after the most horrific 2 weeks where I felt 100% worse). I never dealt with the bereavement and to a degree dont think I have done yet but I took myself off the tablets after 2+ years.

I suffered with anxiety in the past (brought.on by my own actions but that's another story) so whether the doctor looked at my records and thought this was related I don't know but what I had was massive sadness and unreleased grief, not depression and I think had I spoken with a counsellor I wouldn't have needed tablets.

In your case Annie I think it is almost a dereliction of duty on behalf of the GP to just hand out pills without even considering how the loss of your Mum was affecting you, yes he/she might have scanned the notes but given the circumstances not to refer you to a counsellor was really poor decision making, not wishing to be cynical but GPs are often paid by drug companies to push certain drugs as well.

[user104658]

Does everyone believe drugs should be the first point of call or should other therapies be investigated first?

Not a huge fan of drugs for even a headache unless it is a last resort


https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatments/arts-therapies/#.W2xhkChKiUk

I agree that drugs are handed out too quickly and are not always the appropriate first choice. Alternative therapies are unfortunately more expensive and less available, though... It's improving, but the waiting lists are still massive.

Also even then there's often an immediate jump to CBT instead of talking therapies to explore the root causes, which is again not always the best thing. CBT has it's place and the strategies are very useful in many situations, but it shouldn't be the "go to", especially when if the problems being experiences are linked to unresolved past trauma (which people don't even often realise themselves until it's explored).

But yes, in general I think GPs are far too quick to dish out SSRI's on the basis of... Very little. There's also an emerging culture of them being seen as very "normal" and having few or even zero side effects which is untrue. There can be physical side effects up to and including seizures and organ damage, and there can be an unforeseen detrimental effect on mental health, a huge one being that if people who are genuinely unhappy or have huge unresolved problems suddenly gain clarity of thought, it can trigger suicidal ideation where there previously was no compulsion to self harm. Basically, people can have spent years slowly destroying their life without much perspective on that, and then suddenly "see through the fog" and realise that they have little or nothing left... Which is a dangerous position to be in.

On balance, I personally believe that these drugs should NOT be available on a GO subscription, and should be restricted to specialists... With the whole picture being understood before drugs are offered. Again though, availability and waiting lists are the problem, which is why we have under-qualified (in mental health) GPs making psychological assessments that they are not trained to make, and handing out prescriptions like jelly beans.


All of that said, I can't say I'm with you on the second part. I quite freely pop paracetamol, ibuprofen and the occasional cheeky co-codamol for headaches :joker:.

I also used to steal my mum's 30mg codydramol for hangovers, which probably wasn't the most sensible idea :umm2:...

[user104658]

I agree tablets are handed out too quickly. As most people know on here I lost my mum 3 years ago quite suddenly. I struggled massively with not getting my head round it and went to the docs as everyone said that was the best thing to do. I left my appointment 5 minutes later with a prescription for Citalopram when really I needed a referral to bereavement counselling.

That's verging on actual malpractice if you ask me... Giving mood altering drugs when someone is recently bereaved can lead to not properly processing / grieving, and that can manifest as serious generalised anxiety without warning even years later. If someone is VERY distressed something short term might be needed, but not long term medication for clinical depression. Grief isn't a chemical imbalance... Doctors need to help people to work through it, not block it out.

[Niamh.]

Yeah I agree TS, grief over a death or even a relationship ending has to be gone through to come out the other side, you can't go around grief with pills

[glibberglobber]

Can I just ask why this is a sticky in SD&N and not Health, beauty and fashion? :shrug:

[Smithy]

Can I just ask why this is a sticky in SD&N and not Health, beauty and fashion? :shrug:

Does it really matter?

Some people have apposing views about medication or alternative therapies as such it inspired a debate

[user104658]

Can I just ask why this is a sticky in SD&N and not Health, beauty and fashion? :shrug:

Elephant in the room;

It's because no one uses those subforums, and SD&N (hard as it sometimes can be to believe) is where the more... umm... thoughtful :umm2:... side of TiBB lives.

It's like the chat forum, except for when you want to write posts with more than one sentence, and that involve more than 3 seconds of thought. I guess. :eyes:

[Cherie]

Elephant in the room;

It's because no one uses those subforums, and SD&N (hard as it sometimes can be to believe) is where the more... umm... thoughtful :umm2:... side of TiBB lives.

It's like the chat forum, except for when you want to write posts with more than one sentence, and that involve more than 3 seconds of thought. I guess. :eyes:

A kind of 'if Carling did forums' scenario

[user104658]

A kind of 'if Carling did forums' scenario

I don't know if I'd go that far Cherie :joker:. Maybe "if Carling did TiBB Subforums" :think:

Although to be honest, the "Tech & Games" and "TV" sections are the cream of the TiBB crop. They're like that story about WW1 where the British and German soldiers stopped fighting and left the trenches to play football for a day. SD and Chat troops just chatting about films and telly and stuff peacefully :flutter:

[Cherie]

I don't know if I'd go that far Cherie :joker:. Maybe "if Carling did TiBB Subforums" :think:

Although to be honest, the "Tech & Games" and "TV" sections are the cream of the TiBB crop. They're like that story about WW1 where the British and German soldiers stopped fighting and left the trenches to play football for a day. SD and Chat troops just chatting about films and telly and stuff peacefully :flutter:

Stupendous!

[Redway]

That's verging on actual malpractice if you ask me... Giving mood altering drugs when someone is recently bereaved can lead to not properly processing / grieving, and that can manifest as serious generalised anxiety without warning even years later. If someone is VERY distressed something short term might be needed, but not long term medication for clinical depression. Grief isn't a chemical imbalance... Doctors need to help people to work through it, not block it out.

Mhm. Sometimes grief triggers major depression in predisposed people. That’s where the practice of medicating some grief cases comes from.

[Mystic Mock]

When it comes to depression then that's down to the individual to have the willpower to fix what's wrong in their lives.

Other mental illness I'm not up on the treatments so I'm not gonna claim to be an expert.

[Marsh.]

When it comes to depression then that's down to the individual to have the willpower to fix what's wrong in their lives.


This doesn't make sense. What if their life is fine. It's not always triggered by bad events.

[Twosugars]

This doesn't make sense. What if their life is fine. It's not always triggered by bad events.

Very true
My life is fine tbf, but that doesn't stop me from feeling depressed

[Redway]

When it comes to depression then that's down to the individual to have the willpower to fix what's wrong in their lives.

Other mental illness I'm not up on the treatments so I'm not gonna claim to be an expert.

Someone can hear voices telling them 27 times they’re going to die. People can hallucinate evil spirits think their internal organs are being cut off and they have only hours to live. All the while not being able to feed or say a word for months or years.

That’s what depression’s like at the deep end. The deep end that warranted this thread about ECT/shock therapy in the first place.

Apparently it’s all about willpower though. Come on. At least follow the thread.

[Redway]

https://archive.org/stream/manicdepressivei00kraeuoft#page/73

Like I did on the other thread I’m leaving this out there for anyone who wants to be ignorant about depression. Pages 74 to 98.

[Mystic Mock]

This doesn't make sense. What if their life is fine. It's not always triggered by bad events.

Not necessarily bad events happening in someone's life, but sometimes something being missing in someone's life can trigger a depression that medication or experimental treatment is not gonna be able to fix is my point.

[Mystic Mock]

Very true
My life is fine tbf, but that doesn't stop me from feeling depressed

If you don't mind me asking do you feel suicidal in your depression? Or is it more like you can't be bothered with the world today?

I hope that I've put the question across well.:laugh:

[Redway]

Not necessarily bad events happening in someone's life, but sometimes something being missing in someone's life can trigger a depression that medication or experimental treatment is not gonna be able to fix is my point.

I don’t think you know what high-grade depression looks like.

[Mystic Mock]

I don’t think you know what high-grade depression looks like.

I think that there are a few examples of what you're calling “high-grade depression” but I don't how common that kind of depression is to get enough money invested in advanced treatment for high-grade depression because imo unless you've got a lot of money then the treatment seems to only last a short period of time as it currently stands so it's not really useful in the long term imo.

However you seem to be more of an expert on this issue than I am so I'm probably very wrong.

[Redway]

However you seem to be more of an expert on this issue than I am so I'm probably very wrong.

Not trying to be funny but you kind of are where this topic goes.

[Mystic Mock]

Not trying to be funny but you kind of are where this topic goes.

What do you mean by that? I'd never call people with mental health issues selfish like a lot of people do, and in fact I am quite open to my opinions being changed on the subject (which has happened on certain things already) so I don't really feel like I'm the kinda person that you're trying to pigeonhole me as on this thread.

I have just stated a few opinions that were wrong and I'm now trying to get the right end of the stick as it's not a topic that I'm up on.

[Redway]

What do you mean by that? I'd never call people with mental health issues selfish like a lot of people do, and in fact I am quite open to my opinions being changed on the subject (which has happened on certain things already) so I don't really feel like I'm the kinda person that you're trying to pigeonhole me as on this thread.

I have just stated a few opinions that were wrong and I'm now trying to get the right end of the stick as it's not a topic that I'm up on.

All I said is that your comments about depression are wrong. I definitely weren’t lying there. People don’t get electroshock treatment for just feeling a bit low. That’s not the type of “depression” we’re even talking about on this thread.

[Mystic Mock]

All I said is that your comments about depression are wrong. I definitely weren’t lying there. People don’t get electroshock treatment for just feeling a bit low. That’s not the type of “depression” we’re even talking about on this thread.

Is Electroshock Therapy even that effective long term though? Because surely the effects start to weaken the more you take the treatment?

[Redway]

Is Electroshock Therapy even that effective long term though? Because surely the effects start to weaken the more you take the treatment?

It’s the best treatment for severe depression. Repeat treatments might be needed but that doesn’t mean the person’s response weakens. Why would it?

[Mystic Mock]

It’s the best treatment for severe depression. Repeat treatments might be needed but that doesn’t mean the person’s response weakens. Why would it?

I just thought that the initial treatment would be the best because the body isn't used to the Electroshock Therapy at that moment and that the affects would wane with each treatment.

[Mystic Mock]

I know that I'm not explaining myself very well and I'm probably coming across as an idiot so I'm gonna just read the thread for awhile.

I'm sorry if I offended anybody with my comments.

[Nicky91]

my biggest problem for me mentally on here, is that i feel double cause i want to be myself on here but i also don't want to make my friends on here sad whenever they tell me i'm getting too annoying

i do want to behave myself but i don't want to change who i am either

[GoldHeart]

I know that I'm not explaining myself very well and I'm probably coming across as an idiot so I'm gonna just read the thread for awhile.

I'm sorry if I offended anybody with my comments.

What people tend to forget is there's different forms of mental health. It's not that easy to just "snap out of it " .

It's not necessarily due to a traumatic experience, sometimes it's random.

I don't agree with treatment /medication as it's a slippery slope and can do more harm .

[Redway]

I just thought that the initial treatment would be the best because the body isn't used to the Electroshock Therapy at that moment and that the affects would wane with each treatment.

Some depressed people are literally at death’s door. People who might not live long enough to survive a trial of antidepressants always get given first priority for ECT and rightly so.

[Mystic Mock]

Some depressed people are literally at death’s door. People who might not live long enough to survive a trial of antidepressants always get given first priority for ECT and rightly so.

This really will be my last post for a bit, I promise.:hugesmile:

Anyway I actually do understand the treatment in those circumstances as it's pivotal that we don't lose lives to the illness, but I do think that it medically sounds dangerous to keep using it on someone.

And to Nicky91, just be yourself as not everybody can like you, and as Jonathan off Stranger Things said to Will, do you want to be like everybody else?

[Redway]

This really will be my last post for a bit, I promise.:hugesmile:

Anyway I actually do understand the treatment in those circumstances as it's pivotal that we don't lose lives to the illness, but I do think that it medically sounds dangerous to keep using it on someone.

And to Nicky91, just be yourself as not everybody can like you, and as Jonathan off Stranger Things said to Will, do you want to be like everybody else?

I’ll do up a proper ECT post soon but it’s one of the soundest medical treatments out there. There’s a lot of myths about it that I’m planning on breaking in this thread.

[user104658]

ECT does become less effective with each treatment. The actual effect on the condition remains the same, but the time that it lasts between treatments and returning to a depressed state become shorter with each round of treatment, until it becomes impractical to maintain, in which case the person will need to take an extended "break" from ECT in order for it to be effective again later.

[Nicky91]

This really will be my last post for a bit, I promise.:hugesmile:

Anyway I actually do understand the treatment in those circumstances as it's pivotal that we don't lose lives to the illness, but I do think that it medically sounds dangerous to keep using it on someone.

And to Nicky91, just be yourself as not everybody can like you, and as Jonathan off Stranger Things said to Will, do you want to be like everybody else?

so true, thanks for this advice Mock, i will be myself but i will try to not be over the top annoying then i guess

[Livia]

my biggest problem for me mentally on here, is that i feel double cause i want to be myself on here but i also don't want to make my friends on here sad whenever they tell me i'm getting too annoying

i do want to behave myself but i don't want to change who i am either

You're fine Nicky... and remember that the people telling you you're annoying are probably really annoying themselves sometimes. We all are. I know I am...!

[Twosugars]

If you don't mind me asking do you feel suicidal in your depression? Or is it more like you can't be bothered with the world today?

I hope that I've put the question across well.:laugh:
you have, dear MM
been on medication for 19 years, made 3 suicide attempts and still think dying would be best for me
if it wasn't for my bf, the love of my life, I wouldn't bother tbh

Redway is right, we are not talking about an occassional low mood here

[Nicky91]

You're fine Nicky... and remember that the people telling you you're annoying are probably really annoying themselves sometimes. We all are. I know I am...!

:laugh: yes i agree, we all can have our annoying moments, but i still love it on here cause i have such a good laugh with others on here, and some more serious moments on SD maybe, but i've started to appreciate SD a lot more now as well :)

[Mystic Mock]

you have, dear MM
been on medication for 19 years, made 3 suicide attempts and still think dying would be best for me
if it wasn't for my bf, the love of my life, I wouldn't bother tbh

Redway is right, we are not talking about an occassional low mood here

Well I'm glad that you're here with us Twosugars and hopefully your medication stays working strong.:)

And thank you for replying back to me as I know that it's a very personal matter.

[Twosugars]

Well I'm glad that you're here with us Twosugars and hopefully your medication stays working strong.:)

And thank you for replying back to me as I know that it's a very personal matter.
you're welcome, MM. Yes, it can be difficult to talk about.
But if this thread and talking helps someone then it's worth it.

btw, my meds don't work too well, so yes, I've improved from my all-time low point 5 years ago but only to a point where living is not suffering but more like an unpleasant and exhausting chore.
But according to my NHS psychiatrist I've plateaued and have to cope as best I can so :shrug:
I'm not going to go there and throw chairs and break windows for them to take me seriously (some people do, out of desperation).
If not better, gonna go for a ketamine treatment at nhs oxford this winter.

[Marsh.]

Not necessarily bad events happening in someone's life, but sometimes something being missing in someone's life can trigger a depression that medication or experimental treatment is not gonna be able to fix is my point.

Quite.

It was more your wording of "Someone who's depressed it's their job to fix their lives without any aid" that suggested you thought that was the case for everyone.

[Mystic Mock]

you're welcome, MM. Yes, it can be difficult to talk about.
But if this thread and talking helps someone then it's worth it.

btw, my meds don't work too well, so yes, I've improved from my all-time low point 5 years ago but only to a point where living is not suffering but more like an unpleasant and exhausting chore.
But according to my NHS psychiatrist I've plateaued and have to cope as best I can so :shrug:
I'm not going to go there and throw chairs and break windows for them to take me seriously (some people do, out of desperation).
If not better, gonna go for a ketamine treatment at nhs oxford this winter.

The NHS are a runned down mess at the moment, hopefully they'll start taking your issues more seriously soon.

[Mystic Mock]

Quite.

It was more your wording of "Someone who's depressed it's their job to fix their lives without any aid" that suggested you thought that was the case for everyone.

I do have a bad habit of not putting my points across properly, in real life and on the internet.:joker:

[Twosugars]

The NHS are a runned down mess at the moment, hopefully they'll start taking your issues more seriously soon.

Won't hold my breath.
But thank you for kind words, MM.

[Ammi]

I’ll do up a proper ECT post soon but it’s one of the soundest medical treatments out there. There’s a lot of myths about it that I’m planning on breaking in this thread.

..yeah a thread or post on ECT would be really informative, Redway...I knew someone who had ECT therapy as well as many other therapies and many other medications...it didn’t work for her, none of them did as she eventually took her own life...the place she found herself in sadly, was not somewhere which would have responded to any treatment at the time...this is the thing with depression and mental health issues for some people...

[Ammi]

my biggest problem for me mentally on here, is that i feel double cause i want to be myself on here but i also don't want to make my friends on here sad whenever they tell me i'm getting too annoying

i do want to behave myself but i don't want to change who i am either

...you can’t change who you are, Nicky...you have autism and it’s a very beautiful part of you as well..:hug:...it all goes to make up you, you know...every bit of it and nothing needs changing as such...things like ‘obsessions’ are an essential as well for autism because they create a focus that is needed to be channelled into so that things don’t get too scary for you...if that makes sense..?...anyways in terms of those and your time on here..and ‘being annoying’..?...maybe give yourself goals and try to focus on those goals...things like ...when you have a favourite on B.B. and then you stop liking them so much..?..(...which happens for all of us with housemates..)...then don’t go the opposite way and ‘hate on them’..?...just don’t see them as your favourite anymore is all...but not someone to be disliked as such, you know..?...also with any reality show...maybe only allow yourself a certain number of times that you’ll change who is your favourite in that show..?..and really restrict that number of times to maybe only one change through the show or two as the absolute maximum...?...I think making some goals to reach could really help your reality tv love, Nicky....and they won’t change who you are and who you need to be...your beautiful self dear Nicky..:lovedup:...

[Redway]

Will it not confuse anybody if melancholia stands for severe psychotic depressions? :worry:

Give us a good intro, Redway: technique/preparation, uses, side-effects plus anything extra you consider useful.



Indications: psychotic depression (especially bipolar), acute episodes of schizophrenia, autism (apparently) and Parkinson’s disease. As a side they reckon that ECT isn’t used nearly enough with end-stage Parkinson’s patients.

There’s some evidence it works for people with the DTs.

No one knows exactly how it works but there’s got to be an electrical seizure going on upstairs for it to work. The bad motor reactions can be averted by a med called succinylcholine with the same therapeutic effect.

Every candidate for ECT is given: an electrocardiogram, chem survey and CBC. Medications which make the post-ECT confusion worse (lithium and the tricyclics) are put on hold at this point.


Technique:


Scalp gets cleaned at night where electrodes (main ECT ingredient) will be placed the next morning

Dentures are taken out

ECT can be either uni-or-bilateral. The charges according to seizure threshold for the patient vary from 50% over (light) to 500% over (deep). It’s always parallel to how severe/life-threatening the case is. Most docs opt for unilateral at moderate charge.

Usual surgery stuff’s done after that point – ECG machines/heart monitor, all that.

The patient’s always oxygenated with 100% oxygen (administered through a few mask).

The seizures aren’t meant to last more than 30 seconds to one minute.




Treatments given x3 per week—most people need 6 to 12 treatments (in other words up to a month of ECT) for it to work in full. First response usually seen after the third treatment.

Since muscle relaxants were introduced fractures are super rare. ECT’s no more risky than any other major surgery.

The amnesia people mention only happens to some people and doesn’t usually extend to the events a week before ECT until after the last treatment.

Outside the treatment timeframe memory’s perfectly clear.

ECT’s been known to cause mania in bipolar depressed people.

Someone closer the top of this thread said that ECT doesn’t alter the natural course of the illness and that it just suppress symptoms. That’s true but there’s people that depressed that the ECT saved them in the same way that Lazarus resurrected from the dead. It brings people out of the danger zone.

Maintenance ECT is sometimes given to people who relapse—about one treatment a week for 2 months and then tapered down.


Summarised as much as I could. Holla if you've still got questions though.

[Redway]

Listen, who wants information on other mental health surgeries (like DBS for high-grade OCD)?

[Twosugars]

Well, my depression is not psychotic (thank god for small mercies) so looks like I can forget ECT.


Here is a link to a simple test for depression. Nothing fancy, just assessment of your mood.

https://psychcentral.com/quizzes/depression-quiz/

My score was 68, severe depression.
Have a look, worth getting an idea about yourself.

[Kizzy]

Twosugars recommended one time making a long-running thread re. mental illness (Vicky could make this sticky) and I thought in here can go general questions about mental illness and especially controversial shades.

Thought I’d kick-start by mentioning one controversial mental treatment (electroconvulsive therapy/ECT) and challenging the myths about that practice (wholly undeserved) but like I say this is the thread for any questions you’ve got about these things.

Hope you’re alright with me mentioning your name TS.


Wait, what? In which way is turning people into vegetables defensible?

[Redway]

Wait, what? In which way is turning people into vegetables defensible?

In what way is letting people at the point of starvation die because of ignorant comments from the general public?

Comments like yours are the reason these discussions need to be had. Instead of wading in here all hysterical and spreading myths at least try and follow the thread.

[Redway]

Well, my depression is not psychotic (thank god for small mercies) so looks like I can forget ECT.


Here is a link to a simple test for depression. Nothing fancy, just assessment of your mood.

https://psychcentral.com/quizzes/depression-quiz/

My score was 68, severe depression.
Have a look, worth getting an idea about yourself.

Mhm. ECT's traditionally held in reserve for the most severe cases because of attitudes like kizzy's but it's meant to be the most effective treatment for all shades of depression. I'd at least give it some thought if I were you. Is it the post-op amnesia that worries you the most?

[user104658]

Wait, what? In which way is turning people into vegetables defensible?

That's not what it does... it makes people a bit dazed for at most a day or so (e.g. you're not allowed to drive afterwards).

TBH I think at some point the "general public conception" of ECT got mixed up with lobotomy and they became considered the same sort of thing / to have the same effect. Even then, the effects of lobotomy (done correctly) wasn't catatonia either, that's really just the Hollywood-style dramatisation of it. Though it did sometimes make people go... a bit odd... as you would expect from deliberate brain damage.

People ending up "zombies", if it happened at all, would have been because the procedure was often done by untrained people in a non-surgical setting and so further serious braindamage sometimes happened.


...just to reiterate though; ECT and lobotomy are far from the same thing.

[user104658]

Well, my depression is not psychotic (thank god for small mercies) so looks like I can forget ECT.


Here is a link to a simple test for depression. Nothing fancy, just assessment of your mood.

https://psychcentral.com/quizzes/depression-quiz/

My score was 68, severe depression.
Have a look, worth getting an idea about yourself.

I scored 9 and then redid it for how I was approx 18 months / 2 years ago; I scored 51. So it turns out there is hope? I actually think I made a thread about it in the private section :umm2: which I would never normally do so that should say something - and also, it was much, much worse than what I was describing there, I was playing it down a lot. I had what I believe is called a "major acute depressive episode"... which also resolved pretty spontaneously, which it apparently often does. I can't imagine battling with something like that for years non stop, tbqfh. The only real knock-on effect has been that I get stressed much more easily (in genuinely stressful situations) and tend to go worst-case-scenario immediately;

"Ugh you just got flashed by that speed camera... YOU'RE GUNNA LOSE YOUR LICENSE AND OUR LIVES WILL BE RUUUIIINEDDD!!!"

Though I've never really been an optimist :joker:.

[Redway]

I scored 9 and then redid it for how I was approx 18 months / 2 years ago; I scored 51. So it turns out there is hope? I actually think I made a thread about it in the private section :umm2: which I would never normally do so that should say something - and also, it was much, much worse than what I was describing there, I was playing it down a lot. I had what I believe is called a "major acute depressive episode"... which also resolved pretty spontaneously, which it apparently often does. I can't imagine battling with something like that for years non stop, tbqfh. The only real knock-on effect has been that I get stressed much more easily (in genuinely stressful situations) and tend to go worst-case-scenario immediately;

"Ugh you just got flashed by that speed camera... YOU'RE GUNNA LOSE YOUR LICENSE AND OUR LIVES WILL BE RUUUIIINEDDD!!!"

Though I've never really been an optimist :joker:.

They usually clear up by themselves in 6 months to a year-ish, yh. Is that how long yours lasted?

[user104658]

They usually clear up by themselves in 6 months to a year-ish, yh. Is that how long yours lasted?

I would say 4 months of it being actively bad, another few months of "aftershocks".

[Kizzy]

In what way is letting people at the point of starvation die because of ignorant comments from the general public?

Comments like yours are the reason these discussions need to be had. Instead of wading in here all hysterical and spreading myths at least try and follow the thread.

And your disparaging patonising is the goto response of a parrot fashion taught student. I think for myself thank you, I am not ignorant and elevating yourself above the 'general public' in a public debate says more about you than me.
My concerns are far from hysterical I have first hand experience of this topic not that it's your business. Now if you've the energy to debate without insulting me I have a few questions...

Here is a study.

Answer me this, why were the majority of the people in the study aged between 60-100? And why was the majority reason given for referral 'depression' 2/3 of them women?

In the study almost 700 were not able to consent, and almost 500 people were subjected to 12 treatments ... some more.


https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/ECTAS%20Minimum%20Dataset%20Report%202012-13.pdf

[Redway]

You're not alone when it comes to overthinking TS. Do freak auto accidents and things like Grenfell towers make it worse for you?

[Twosugars]

Mhm. ECT's traditionally held in reserve for the most severe cases because of attitudes like kizzy's but it's meant to be the most effective treatment for all shades of depression. I'd at least give it some thought if I were you. Is it the post-op amnesia that worries you the most?

I wanted to have it done, requested it, but was told no. Maybe if I was sectioned, but otherwise they said they didn't do it.

Now all my hopes rest on ketamine treatment at Oxford.

[Kizzy]

That's not what it does... it makes people a bit dazed for at most a day or so (e.g. you're not allowed to drive afterwards).

TBH I think at some point the "general public conception" of ECT got mixed up with lobotomy and they became considered the same sort of thing / to have the same effect. Even then, the effects of lobotomy (done correctly) wasn't catatonia either, that's really just the Hollywood-style dramatisation of it. Though it did sometimes make people go... a bit odd... as you would expect from deliberate brain damage.

People ending up "zombies", if it happened at all, would have been because the procedure was often done by untrained people in a non-surgical setting and so further serious braindamage sometimes happened.


...just to reiterate though; ECT and lobotomy are far from the same thing.

Again with the 'general public' :/ professor TS ... I am not confusing ECT and a prefrontal lobotomy either. My point of reference is this being used within the last 15yrs on brain injured patients of secure wards, with averse results.

[Redway]

And your disparaging patonising is the goto response of a parrot fashion taught student. I think for myself thank you, I am not ignorant and elevating yourself above the 'general public' in a public debate says more about you than me.
My concerns are far from hysterical I have first hand experience of this topic not that it's your business. Now if you've the energy to debate without insulting me I have a few questions...

Here is a study.

Answer me this, why were the majority of the people in the study aged between 60-100? And why was the majority reason given for referral 'depression' 2/3 of them women?

In the study almost 700 were not able to consent, and almost 500 people were subjected to 12 treatments ... some more.


https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/ECTAS%20Minimum%20Dataset%20Report%202012-13.pdf

I'm against parrot fashion teaching and reciting artificial psychiatric books (aka the DSM). I'm also against stereotyping and hysterics.

ECT isn't a conspiracy against women. It's used more for depression than any other illness and 2/3 of people with non-bipolar depression are women by chance just like 2/3 of people with schizophrenia just happen to be male. Some illnesses are just more common in particular demographics by chance. That doesn't tell anything about preferential treatment or discrimination based on gender or age.

Why were the huge majority of the ECT patients white kiz? Why so few Jamaicans? Is that evidence of systemic racism or does preferential discrimination only work when your particular demographic's included?

And 12 treatments is the standard needed for it to work though isn't it kizzy. Someone nearer the top of this thread voiced an issue with ECT wearing off if it isn't done enough times and that's why every ECT patient needs at least 12 of them. It's for maintenance as well as acute treatment.

Some of the ECT patients who couldn't give their consent would've been either floridly psychotic or literally at death's door. There's such a thing as temporary mental incapacity however non-PC it sounds to you. And most people who got the treatment benefited a lot from it as I see it. A whole 90% improved or are you willing to overlook that just to make ECT sound like a barbaric practice?

Either make a full argument or humble yourself and learn.

[Kizzy]

Mhm. ECT's traditionally held in reserve for the most severe cases because of attitudes like kizzy's but it's meant to be the most effective treatment for all shades of depression. I'd at least give it some thought if I were you. Is it the post-op amnesia that worries you the most?


Really...effective science is not applied because of my attitude?..... That is ridiculous you do realise that?

Mild depression can be seizured away, leaving you forgetful. That's the advice?

My 'general public' stylee input although in the world of invasive treatment is worth nada is this...

DsVzKCk066g

[Redway]

Again with the 'general public' :/ professor TS ... I am not confusing ECT and a prefrontal lobotomy either. My point of reference is this being used within the last 15yrs on brain injured patients of secure wards, with averse results.

And adverse results can happen with any medical procedure unfortunately. Unless you've got solid proof that ECT causes more damage than any other practice you're just adding to the stigma.

[Matthew.]

i scored 20

[Redway]

Really...effective science is not applied because of my attitude?..... That is ridiculous you do realise that?

Mild depression can be seizured away, leaving you forgetful. That's the advice?

My 'general public' stylee input although in the world of invasive treatment is worth nada is this...

DsVzKCk066g

Yup. All because of attitudes like yours. You could always learn about how it's a life-saving practice but you wouldn't get as much as a reaction as you would by being controversial on any thread to do with weed or mental health like you always do. I don't know about you but I'd rather have temporary amnesia than turn into a living skeleton from the deeper grades of psychotic depression. And unlike all your posts in here that's not hysterics but actual fact. ECT's been known to virtually resurrect people from near death. And however many adverse effects you can find the fact that it saves lives isn't one you can argue with whether it suits your agenda or not.

Good grief woman.

[Twosugars]

i scored 20

what was that described as, Matthew?

[Twosugars]

Kizzy we will talk about exercise too, but people who can be helped by ECT are long past the point of getting up and exercising. There's a place and time for everything.

[Kizzy]

I'm against parrot fashion teaching and reciting artificial psychiatric books (aka the DSM). I'm also against stereotyping and hysterics.

ECT isn't a conspiracy against women. It's used more for depression than any other illness and 2/3 of people with non-bipolar depression are women by chance just like 2/3 of people with schizophrenia just happen to be male. Some illnesses are just more common in particular demographics by chance. That doesn't tell anything about preferential treatment or discrimination based on gender or age.

Why were the huge majority of the ECT patients white kiz? Why so few Jamaicans? Is that evidence of systemic racism or does preferential discrimination only work when your particular demographic's included?

And 12 treatments is the standard needed for it to work though isn't it kizzy. Someone nearer the top of this thread voiced an issue with ECT wearing off if it isn't done enough times and that's why every ECT patient needs at least 12 of them. It's for maintenance as well as acute treatment.

Some of the ECT patients who couldn't give their consent would've been either floridly psychotic or literally at death's door. There's such a thing as temporary mental incapacity however non-PC it sounds to you. And most people who got the treatment benefited a lot from it as I see it. A whole 90% improved or are you willing to overlook that just to make ECT sound like a barbaric practice?

Either make a full argument or humble yourself and learn.

Who said it was a conspiracy against women?... I simply stated that 2/3rds of the study were women.

The participants were referred from clinics, the clients were, I'm presuming the locals within the areas involved.

The number of psychotic people in the study were stated, what would the effects of 12 treatments on someone literally at deaths door incidentally?



If you were to commit to a treatment for around a year as your time frame for treatments and frequency suggests then might there not be some improvement if you undertook anything for that length of time?... exercise? counselling? group therapy?

It appears in the study to have been a raging success.... which begs the question why was there the offer to draw your own conclusion?
Would it not be hailed as a miracle, would all these incapacitated OAPS not be flooding in rapture through the clinic doors, blinking into the sun cured?

[Twosugars]

I'm appalled at you thinking people who need ECT can exercise their depression away, Kizzy

[Kizzy]

Yup. All because of attitudes like yours. You could always learn about how it's a life-saving practice but you wouldn't get as much as a reaction as you would by being controversial on any thread to do with weed or mental health like you always do. I don't know about you but I'd rather have temporary amnesia than turn into a living skeleton from the deeper grades of psychotic depression. And unlike all your posts in here that's not hysterics but actual fact. ECT's been known to virtually resurrect people from near death. And however many adverse effects you can find the fact that it saves lives isn't one you can argue with whether it suits your agenda or not.

Good grief woman.

Good grief woman? you have lurched from it being a cure all for mild grade depression to now having effectively the power to raise the living dead....

I have no doubt that once IN that catatonic state this may be an option, but as a preventative strategy, no.

Once again this is my opinion, it isn't hysterical or agenda based, I am taking part in this debate as are others and I a asking you to try to remain civil in your responses.

[Kizzy]

I'm appalled at you thinking people who need ECT can exercise their depression away, Kizzy

Are you, so you think it is more beneficial to trigger your brains natural responses via a seizure rather than exercise... Why is that?

As seen in the study there are those for whom ECT is ultimately the only option, but not all and by no means mild to moderate depression imo.

[Twosugars]

Are you, so you think it is more beneficial to trigger your brains natural responses via a seizure rather than exercise... Why is that?

As seen in the study there are those for whom ECT is ultimately the only option, but not all and by no means mild to moderate depression imo.
What made you think ECT is used on mild to moderate depression? :conf:
Such an invasive treatmend would never be used like that.
Do you think they dole out ECT left, right and centre?
It's only used in extreme cases. I have severe depression and was turned down flat as not severe enough.

[Matthew.]

what was that described as, Matthew?

borderline

[Twosugars]

borderline

how do you feel about that? do you think it's accurate?

[user104658]

Again with the 'general public' :/ professor TS ... I am not confusing ECT and a prefrontal lobotomy either. My point of reference is this being used within the last 15yrs on brain injured patients of secure wards, with averse results.

There's no need for the aggressive / sarcastic comments Kizzy; if you want to have a rethink and discuss these things in a mature, level-headed way then by all means I think everyone is more than willing to do so, but other than that I genuinely just can't be bothered with the snarky attitude.

[Kizzy]

Here's some info I did that 'quiz' I scored 29 so apparently I need ECT.... Except I don't as I know that moods peak and trough, it's important not to get fixated on the negative... Especially for me as an ex addict.

I would advise staying away from any form of crutches, especially shocking ones.

As an experiment if only as a way to prove me wrong I would take that quiz then take some exercise of your choice for a month or so, then take that test again.... I will eat my hat if that score hasn't improved some!

[Kizzy]

There's no need for the aggressive / sarcastic comments Kizzy; if you want to have a rethink and discuss these things in a mature, level-headed way then by all means I think everyone is more than willing to do so, but other than that I genuinely just can't be bothered with the snarky attitude.

Shall we move the conversation along to gaslighting? :hehe:

[Twosugars]

Here's some info I did that 'quiz' I scored 29 so apparently I need ECT.... Except I don't as I know that moods peak and trough, it's important not to get fixated on the negative... Especially for me as an ex addict.

I would advise staying away from any form of crutches, especially shocking ones.

As an experiment if only as a way to prove me wrong I would take that quiz then take some exercise of your choice for a month or so, then take that test again.... I will eat my hat if that score hasn't improved some!

Again who on earth says you need ECT for mild/moderate depression?
Kizzy, please don't spread such dangerous misinformation

[Kizzy]

Again who on earth says you need ECT for mild/moderate depression?
Kizzy, please don't spread such dangerous misinformation

Redway in this thread.

'ECT's traditionally held in reserve for the most severe cases because of attitudes like kizzy's but it's meant to be the most effective treatment for all shades of depression.'

[Twosugars]

Redway in this thread.

'ECT's traditionally held in reserve for the most severe cases because of attitudes like kizzy's but it's meant to be the most effective treatment for all shades of depression.'

bc there are different kinds like psychotic, unipolar, bipolar,
it means different types
NOT degrees of severity!

[Kizzy]

What made you think ECT is used on mild to moderate depression? :conf:
Such an invasive treatmend would never be used like that.
Do you think they dole out ECT left, right and centre?
It's only used in extreme cases. I have severe depression and was turned down flat as not severe enough.

You have identified you are severely depressed and you can communicate with others as to possible avenues out of it... That alone is a huge leap towards recovery! for some reason your doctor may not feel that this would be beneficial for you, what else was suggested as an alternative?

[Kizzy]

bc there are different kinds like psychotic, unipolar, bipolar,
it means different types
NOT degrees of severity!

I'm aware of that they were catagorised in the PDF study I posted ..

Anxiety 1 0.1
Bipolar disorder - depression 39 2.1
Bipolar disorder - mania 3 0.2
Bipolar disorder 21 1.1
Catatonia - cause not stated 41 7.8
Catatonia - depression 11 0.6
Catatonia - schizophrenia 8 0.4
Depression 1637 86.4
Mania 13 0.7
Mixed affective psychosis 3 0.2
Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome 1 0.1
Peri-natal depression 1 0.1
Post-natal depression 14 0.7
Persistent delusional disorder 1 0.1
Psychosis 9 0.5
Schizoaffective disorder -depression 9 0.5
Schizoaffective disorder 6 0.3
Schizophrenia 9 0.5
Schizophrenia - mood disorder

1637 aged persons in that study were found to be suffering 'depression' not any of the other sub categories you stated.

[Twosugars]

You have identified you are severely depressed and you can communicate with others as to possible avenues out of it... That alone is a huge leap towards recovery! for some reason your doctor may not feel that this would be beneficial for you, what else was suggested as an alternative?
the usual, gardening, mild exercise if I can, keeping busy, plus my meds
but tbh, as soon as I stopped being suicidal they lost interest and tried to get me off their books asap
when I said I do all that as much as I can but I'm not progressing they said I'd plateaued and have to wait. I said I wasted 5 years, the answer: oh, in same cases in may take 15 and a shrug.
It's embarrassing to talk about details, but some days are better and others worse, but I'm not functioning whichever way you look at it. The worst is the constant fatigue. I get up and 30 min later I want to go back to bed.
Now I'm scared to go and ask to be referred back bc I know they simply don't have time and resources and will fob me off again.
There's ketamine treatment at nhs oxford where you pay for it, gonna do that in winter if things don't improve.

[Twosugars]

I'm aware of that they were catagorised in the PDF study I posted ..

Anxiety 1 0.1
Bipolar disorder - depression 39 2.1
Bipolar disorder - mania 3 0.2
Bipolar disorder 21 1.1
Catatonia - cause not stated 41 7.8
Catatonia - depression 11 0.6
Catatonia - schizophrenia 8 0.4
Depression 1637 86.4
Mania 13 0.7
Mixed affective psychosis 3 0.2
Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome 1 0.1
Peri-natal depression 1 0.1
Post-natal depression 14 0.7
Persistent delusional disorder 1 0.1
Psychosis 9 0.5
Schizoaffective disorder -depression 9 0.5
Schizoaffective disorder 6 0.3
Schizophrenia 9 0.5
Schizophrenia - mood disorder

1637 aged persons in that study were found to be suffering 'depression' not any of the other sub categories you stated.

I don't know how why they didn't specify. But the fact is, ECT is administered very conservatively and I mean very.
If nothing else (and there's plenty of medical reasons), it is a very expensive treatment requiring hospital stay etc. No doctor would dream of recommending it if there were alternatives.

[Redway]

Who said it was a conspiracy against women?... I simply stated that 2/3rds of the study were women.

The participants were referred from clinics, the clients were, I'm presuming the locals within the areas involved.

The number of psychotic people in the study were stated, what would the effects of 12 treatments on someone literally at deaths door incidentally?



If you were to commit to a treatment for around a year as your time frame for treatments and frequency suggests then might there not be some improvement if you undertook anything for that length of time?... exercise? counselling? group therapy?

It appears in the study to have been a raging success.... which begs the question why was there the offer to draw your own conclusion?
Would it not be hailed as a miracle, would all these incapacitated OAPS not be flooding in rapture through the clinic doors, blinking into the sun cured?

BIB 1: as I say it's more about what's implied than what's said in black-and-white. It's you who questioned why 2/3 of the referred patients were women and I flipped it back by pointing out that the huge majority of collective patients were white. I didn't question it or allude to it being evidence of systemic racism in the way you implied the slight preponderance of women was an example of sexism in ECT.

BIB 2: first up everyone who's referred for ECT is ultimately psychotic in some form or other. Barking at the moon or in catatonic stupor they're all expressions of psychosis so all the patients in that study were suffering from it. 12 treatment's the minimum number for any course of ECT whether they are at death's door or just have moderately severe depression. It's never a one-time thing even in the lightest cases. I could only assume that the standard 12-treatment course would tone down the illness for at least a time and remove the risk of death in the patient who's at death's door. But you could always ignore that and bring up a few one-off cases of ECT gone wrong. Anything that helps you shame ECT even more innit.

BIB 3: continuation ECT's rare and if it is used only about once monthly. They're expected to be on other treatment regimes according to the nature of their illness. Whatever about being a pure naturalist but why stop at exercise? What's the deal with life-saving treatments when you can use a bit of St John's wart after all?
ECT's not supposed to alter the long-term course of the illness. It's a symptomatic treatment just like any other. You can say it's not appropriate for mild to moderate depression but at least it's more fitting to both grave and mild depression than a bit of jogging is for someone who's emaciated or stuporous from a delusional depression that makes them lie still in bed because voices threaten them with hell if they move left or right. St John's Wart is probably a waste of time for those high-grade cases too.

BIB 4: what are you even on about this time? I don't understand.

Good grief woman? you have lurched from it being a cure all for mild grade depression to now having effectively the power to raise the living dead....

I have no doubt that once IN that catatonic state this may be an option, but as a preventative strategy, no.

Once again this is my opinion, it isn't hysterical or agenda based, I am taking part in this debate as are others and I a asking you to try to remain civil in your responses.

BIB 1: It's the best treatment for mild and severe depression but it's reserved for the most severe cases. Not least because of the public disapproval that you've done crystal clear justice to on this thread so far. This is one of the things we're talking about.

BIB 2: until you stop skating over the 90% success rate and the lack of ethnic representation compared to your point about women and OAPs being over represented I don't believe that.



Are you, so you think it is more beneficial to trigger your brains natural responses via a seizure rather than exercise... Why is that?

As seen in the study there are those for whom ECT is ultimately the only option, but not all and by no means mild to moderate depression imo.

I don't think you know the difference between reactive low mood and bona-fide psychiatric depression that just happens to be be not too severe. There's a huge difference.

[Redway]

the usual, gardening, mild exercise if I can, keeping busy, plus my meds
but tbh, as soon as I stopped being suicidal they lost interest and tried to get me off their books asap
when I said I do all that as much as I can but I'm not progressing they said I'd plateaued and have to wait. I said I wasted 5 years, the answer: oh, in same cases in may take 15 and a shrug.
It's embarrassing to talk about details, but some days are better and others worse, but I'm not functioning whichever way you look at it. The worst is the constant fatigue. I get up and 30 min later I want to go back to bed.
Now I'm scared to go and ask to be referred back bc I know they simply don't have time and resources and will fob me off again.
There's ketamine treatment at nhs oxford where you pay for it, gonna do that in winter if things don't improve.

You don't owe kizzy any explanation pal. As long as you're working on feeling better in yourself you don't need to justify yourself.

[Redway]

And kizzy - putting aside pure depression what do you think about people who need ECT for more deeply rooted illnesses like bipolar and the post-psychotic depression of schizophrenia? What happens when people in a manic episode hop onto a moving vehicle thinking they're invincible going by your advice telling the to jog?

[Matthew.]

how do you feel about that? do you think it's accurate?

well i never feel depressed if that’s what you mean

[Kizzy]

I don't know how why they didn't specify. But the fact is, ECT is administered very conservatively and I mean very.
If nothing else (and there's plenty of medical reasons), it is a very expensive treatment requiring hospital stay etc. No doctor would dream of recommending it if there were alternatives.

There you go then you just answered your own question as to why you weren't offered it, there are lots of avenues out of it...and as glib as it sounded it can take longer than 5yrs to dig your way out. Now you've decided you want to live start living... find a purpose. Work, hobby, family, friends, lovers. Routine is your friend, have an achievable goal... Even if it only washing your clothes and taking then out of the washer before they start to smell.
Baby steps, natural highs ... go to the lakes, laugh at the sheep, work on your self esteem, make yourself look amazing then go out and smile at people just to watch them smile back.

Confront your issues, write them down, make amends with yourself, move on.
Don't waste any more time, your doctor, ECT, ketamin ... can't help they are things from outside going in, to heal you need it to radiate from within moving outwards.

This might make sense it might not, it helped me and is still helping me, if someone 5yrs ago had told me I could get (and keep) a job or buy a house I would have laughed in their face ( then gone home and cried myself to sleep)

From what I've seen of you on here you seem sensitive, socially aware and morally strong maybe the times we live in are taking their toll... I'm not sure how deep your personal issues pool is but even that's enough to tip some over the edge I guess?

I'm willing you well... I'm sending you all the strength I can muster in the hope it gives you a seizure... (kidding)

[Kizzy]

You don't owe kizzy any explanation pal. As long as you're working on feeling better in yourself you don't need to justify yourself.

That's good advice red, just internalise everything until your doctor has no option but to refer you for brain zapping.

[Kizzy]

And kizzy - putting aside pure depression what do you think about people who need ECT for more deeply rooted illnesses like bipolar and the post-psychotic depression of schizophrenia? What happens when people in a manic episode hop onto a moving vehicle thinking they're invincible going by your advice telling the to jog?

I've already touched on that in previous posts in any catatonic, manic state yes otherwise no.

And to be fair even then ECT is not a cure all is it? There is the need to maintain a level of treatment that could be unsustainable, where is the funding for all this treatment coming from?

The cynic in me might suggest that the only reason for advocating such treatments is if those pushing them had a vested interest....We would see 'virgin' ECT centers popping up in every town then all with their hand out for NHS funded clients.

[Twosugars]

well i never feel depressed if that’s what you mean

that's good!
the questions are general so some things can be explained by certain personality traits and current mood without involving depression
maybe you just cba today :laugh:

[Twosugars]

I've already touched on that in previous posts in any catatonic, manic state yes otherwise no.

And to be fair even then ECT is not a cure all is it? There is the need to maintain a level of treatment that could be unsustainable, where is the funding for all this treatment coming from?

The cynic in me might suggest that the only reason for advocating such treatments is if those pushing them had a vested interest....We would see 'virgin' ECT centers popping up in every town then all with their hand out for NHS funded clients.
Kizzy, please don't make it political. This thread is apolitical.
Redway posted an intro about ECT as one of possible treatments in severe cases. We'll be discussing other treatments too and not only for depresssion.
Let's keep it educational not confrontational.

[Kizzy]

Kizzy, please don't make it political. This thread is apolitical.
Redway posted an intro about ECT as one of possible treatments in severe cases. We'll be discussing other treatments too and not only for depresssion.
Let's keep it educational not confrontational.

I did say that was me being cynical... :laugh:
This is an extreme treatment for extreme cases, the last thing I want to do is normalise it believe me.

[Redway]

That's good advice red, just internalise everything until your doctor has no option but to refer you for brain zapping.

That's not what I said though is it. I said he doesn't owe you an explanation. Not his doctor, not family, just people like you.

[Redway]

I've already touched on that in previous posts in any catatonic, manic state yes otherwise no.

And to be fair even then ECT is not a cure all is it? There is the need to maintain a level of treatment that could be unsustainable, where is the funding for all this treatment coming from?

The cynic in me might suggest that the only reason for advocating such treatments is if those pushing them had a vested interest....We would see 'virgin' ECT centers popping up in every town then all with their hand out for NHS funded clients.

If you bothered to read my posts you would've seen that we've already established that ECT isn't a long-term cure. But then you couldn't be arsed replying any of that post anyway so I'm not surprised.

[Kizzy]

That's not what I said though is it. I said he doesn't owe you an explanation. Not his doctor, not family, just people like you.

That's good because I didn't ASK for an explanation... this is just you being overly aggressive and confrontational for no good reason.

'People like me?' is that me as a depressed person, me as an ex addict or just me who has disagreed with your stance on an internet forum?

[Kizzy]

If you bothered to read my posts you would've seen that we've already established that ECT isn't a long-term cure. But then you couldn't be arsed replying any of that post anyway so I'm not surprised.

Then what are we meant to be debating here?... I have already agreed that it's for very extreme mental health conditions and it has to be maintained indefinitely .... I am beginning to think you are just causing an argument for arguments sake now.

Best I step away from this portion of the discussion for a bit as I appear to be triggering some reaction from you.

[Twosugars]

It's more of a convo around mental health issues with accent on information, not a heated debate thread.

[Redway]

That's good because I didn't ASK for an explanation... this is just you being overly aggressive and confrontational for no good reason.

'People like me?' is that me as a depressed person, me as an ex addict or just me who has disagreed with your stance on an internet forum?

I'm sorry to hear about your own personal issues but you can't made comments like your opening post and expect not to be called out on it. If you can't handle it then don't act hysterical about alternative treatments in the first place.

[Redway]

Then what are we meant to be debating here?... I have already agreed that it's for very extreme mental health conditions and it has to be maintained indefinitely .... I am beginning to think you are just causing an argument for arguments sake now.

Best I step away from this portion of the discussion for a bit as I appear to be triggering some reaction from you.

It's still funny how you haven't bothered replying to any of that post.

[Kizzy]

I'm sorry to hear about your own personal issues but you can't made comments like your opening post and expect not to be called out on it. If you can't handle it then don't act hysterical about alternative treatments in the first place.

Again I'm going to ask you to stop attacking me with these gaslighting comments, I'm not hysterical and no matter how many times you say it , it won't make it so.

The very rational input I have had in this thread explains how I feel ECT should always be the last line in treatment, you offered it up for discussion I appreciate that it does from my experience render people forgetful and unresponsive. Therefore however much you disliked my comment it did not come, as you so arrogantly predicted,from a place of ignorance.

[Redway]

Allow me but your experience doesn't show one bit when you make comments like below. I don't care if you went back on it because you were called on it but you made it sound like ECT has no purpose at all. All your earlier posts were laced with bare hyperbole and blatantly not in favour of ECT. There's no other rational inference people can draw from posts like that than you setting out to spread more inaccuracies about an already stigmatised practice.

Wait, what? In which way is turning people into vegetables defensible?

[user104658]

'People like me?' is that me as a depressed person, me as an ex addict or just me who has disagreed with your stance on an internet forum?

From my perspective; it's the "you" who doesn't seem to have the ability to enter a thread without immediately turning it into a "battle". Ever. Ever, Kizzy. Give it some thought.

[Kizzy]

Allow me but your experience doesn't show one bit when you make comments like below. I don't care if you went back on it because you were called on it but you made it sound like ECT has no purpose at all. All your earlier posts were laced with bare hyperbole and blatantly not in favour of ECT. There's no other rational inference people can draw from posts like that than you setting out to spread more inaccuracies about an already stigmatised practice.

And your experience... I have one do you?
You neither knew nor cared what my experience was when you began your 'analysis' of my competence to even comment.

So where is your experience from which you can confidently allay the fears of anyone in relation to the practice, how pronounced is the 'forgetfulness'... when would anyone receiving treatment begin to function in a state other than confused before the next session?

Where are your accuracies?...

[Kizzy]

From my perspective; it's the "you" who doesn't seem to have the ability to enter a thread without immediately turning it into a "battle". Ever. Ever, Kizzy. Give it some thought.

Thanks for the evaluation, I'll add it to the list of things you don't feel I'm qualified to comment on.

If there was one case study..one, that had been offered as a successful treatment that would be something but as per there is nothing. Nothing but the sound of redway saying not very much in relation to something for which he has no first hand experience.

If you don't like the way I debate, feel free to ignore.

[Redway]

"something for which he has no first-hand experience."

You'd know all about that though wouldn't you kizzy. I forgot we're bezzies.

[Kizzy]

Then offer something up, if you rate ECT so highly and suggest those who think it's in the main an outdated practice show me something to change my mind!

[Redway]

Thanks for the evaluation, I'll add it to the list of things you don't feel I'm qualified to comment on.

If there was one case study..one, that had been offered as a successful treatment that would be something but as per there is nothing. Nothing but the sound of redway saying not very much in relation to something for which he has no first hand experience.

If you don't like the way I debate, feel free to ignore.

That case study you yourself posted that showed a 90% success rate says enough to any person who's not being biased but just for you:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7896675
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8714319
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/risa-sugarman/electroconvulsive-therapy_b_6717610.html?guccounter=1
http://www.jneuropsychiatry.org/peer-review/successful-electroconvulsive-therapy-and-three-year-followup-in-a-bipolar-i-depressed-patient-with-comorbid-conversion-d.pdf
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0101-81082005000300009&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2017-222100.full
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386114
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180502-the-surprising-benefits-of-electroshock-therapy-or-ect
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2860524/
https://www.yesandyes.org/2011/05/true-story-i-had-electroconvulsive.html
https://www.mcleanhospital.org/news/how-we-talk-about-ect-replacing-misconceptions-stories-success
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/struck-living/201504/the-shocking-truth-about-ect

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytC7GYaDvU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JG9eQsjaZY

That enough for you or are you gonna ignore it like you did with the 90% success rate reported in the study you yourself posted or 98% of my earlier comments to you?

If people have an issue with your comments they're more than free to take it up with you and that's what people are doing. If you can't handle being called out on your own comments then don't post things you know will trigger people.

[Redway]

Then offer something up, if you rate ECT so highly and suggest those who think it's in the main an outdated practice show me something to change my mind!

Old-school ECT caused bone fractures. The more it's refined the more it's relevant today.

Like I said it's just funny how you keep ignoring all my earlier posts in response to you. You need to brush up on your rebuttal skills.

I've offered plenty. It's you who can't offer any real counter-arguments for reasons we both know. This is what you do on every thread allied to mental health.

[Kizzy]

That case study you yourself posted that showed a 90% success rate says enough to any person who's not being biased but just for you:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7896675
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8714319
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/risa-sugarman/electroconvulsive-therapy_b_6717610.html?guccounter=1
http://www.jneuropsychiatry.org/peer-review/successful-electroconvulsive-therapy-and-three-year-followup-in-a-bipolar-i-depressed-patient-with-comorbid-conversion-d.pdf
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0101-81082005000300009&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2017-222100.full
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386114
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180502-the-surprising-benefits-of-electroshock-therapy-or-ect
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2860524/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytC7GYaDvU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JG9eQsjaZY

That enough for you or are you gonna ignore it like you did with the 90% success rate reported in the study you yourself posted or 98% of my earlier comments to you?

If people have an issue with your comments they're more than free to take it up with you and that's what people are doing. If you can't handle being called out on your own comments then don't post things you know will trigger people.

Well thanks, I'll have a good look at these when I've time. The study I posted was very successful apparently, which begged the question why such a lukewarm 'draw your own conclusion' summation?

Are you suggesting I temper my comments so as not to injure any fragile egos?.... not going to happen.
I can post as I see fit site rules permitting, I have had my say as is my right as a forum member. If you could stick you commenting on my thoughts on the thread topic and not me personally it would be appreciated.

[Redway]

Well thanks, I'll have a good look at these when I've time. The study I posted was very successful apparently, which begged the question why such a lukewarm 'draw your own conclusion' summation?

Are you suggesting I temper my comments so as not to injure any fragile egos?.... not going to happen.
I can post as I see fit site rules permitting, I have had my say as is my right as a forum member. If you could stick you commenting on my thoughts on the thread topic and not me personally it would be appreciated.

BIB 1: because according to you that whole study disproved the effectiveness of ECT.

I might as well allow it at this point in light of the weakness of the few responses to my posts you've even come up with but then this is the thread to have these discussions so we might as well spin it out some more. But you could always try and read people's posts instead of ignoring 99.9% of the comments countered against yours and stop assuming I don't have any experience where ECT goes.

BIB 2: nope. I'm suggesting you stop telling people to not reply your comments if they're not made in the way you wanna hear.

[Maru]

Have to say, this is one the best threads in SD in a while... lots of information and deeply engaging...

[Redway]

Thanks for the evaluation, I'll add it to the list of things you don't feel I'm qualified to comment on.

If there was one case study..one, that had been offered as a successful treatment that would be something but as per there is nothing. Nothing but the sound of redway saying not very much in relation to something for which he has no first hand experience.

If you don't like the way I debate, feel free to ignore.

That's not exactly true either is it. Say what you want about my posting style or whichever but I've said loads and loads about ECT on this thread.

[Kizzy]

BIB 1: because according to you that whole study disproved the effectiveness of ECT.

I might as well allow it at this point in light of the weakness of the few responses to my posts you've even come up with but then this is the thread to have these discussions so we might as well spin it out some more. But you could always try and read people's posts instead of ignoring 99.9% of the comments countered against yours and stop assuming I don't have any experience where ECT goes.

BIB 2: nope. I'm suggesting you stop telling people to not reply your comments if they're not made in the way you wanna hear.

BIB 1: It was not my intention to prove anything by posting that study, nor did the study in itself claim anything concrete. I asked questions in reference to the study is all.

Should you have first hand experience great, let's hear all about it.
It's rich to pontificate about something you haven't stated any real term knowledge of.

BIB2: I think you'll find it was me that was asked not to comment as my post was not made in a way you wanted to hear initially remember?
I don't have an issue with people replying t my comments as they relate to the thread, it's the character assassination I object to. Getting personally offensive isn't what I expect from a serious debate.

[Redway]

BIB 1: It was not my intention to prove anything by posting that study, nor did the study in itself claim anything concrete. I asked questions in reference to the study is all.

Should you have first hand experience great, let's hear all about it.
It's rich to pontificate about something you haven't stated any real term knowledge of.

BIB2: I think you'll find it was me that was asked not to comment as my post was not made in a way you wanted to hear initially remember?
I don't have an issue with people replying t my comments as they relate to the thread, it's the character assassination I object to. Getting personally offensive isn't what I expect from a serious debate.

Just like you're not broadcasting your own first-hand experience to the world why would I do the same, hm?

Like I keep saying you can say what you want about my style of posting but you're obviously not for real if you're saying I haven't demonstrated real knowledge of ECT on here. Did you even read any of the posts at the top of this thread including the one where I outlined procedure and side-effects?

BIB 2: I made some tongue-in-cheek comments about you fear-mongering, you said I have a fragile ego. We're about even.

[Kizzy]

That's not exactly true either is it. Say what you want about my posting style or whichever but I've said loads and loads about ECT on this thread.

You have stated it's the best and the most sound for specific issues but until about half an hour ago offered nothing to back up that theory.

[Kizzy]

Just like you're not broadcasting your own first-hand experience to the world why would I do the same, hm?

Like I keep saying you can say what you want about my style of posting but you're obviously not for real if you're saying I haven't demonstrated real knowledge of ECT on here. Did you even read any of the posts at the top of this thread including the one where I outlined procedure and side-effects?

BIB 2: I made some tongue-in-cheek comments about you fear-mongering, you said I have a fragile ego. We're about even.

A quick google search could get you the outline of a procedure and possible side effects.... it doesn't make you some oracle on the subject...clinicians have debated for decades about the efficacy of ECT, so why do you feel the need to advocate it to the point of insulting anyone who challenges the concept?
You were rude and condescending to mock earlier in the thread and have done nothing but barrack me on the subject for several hours. I'm going to leave it for now until I've read some of the info you got around to posting.

[Redway]

You have stated it's the best and the most sound for specific issues but until about half an hour ago offered nothing to back up that theory.



Indications: psychotic depression (especially bipolar), acute episodes of schizophrenia, autism (apparently) and Parkinson’s disease. As a side they reckon that ECT isn’t used nearly enough with end-stage Parkinson’s patients.

There’s some evidence it works for people with the DTs.

No one knows exactly how it works but there’s got to be an electrical seizure going on upstairs for it to work. The bad motor reactions can be averted by a med called succinylcholine with the same therapeutic effect.

Every candidate for ECT is given: an electrocardiogram, chem survey and CBC. Medications which make the post-ECT confusion worse (lithium and the tricyclics) are put on hold at this point.


Technique:


Scalp gets cleaned at night where electrodes (main ECT ingredient) will be placed the next morning

Dentures are taken out

ECT can be either uni-or-bilateral. The charges according to seizure threshold for the patient vary from 50% over (light) to 500% over (deep). It’s always parallel to how severe/life-threatening the case is. Most docs opt for unilateral at moderate charge.

Usual surgery stuff’s done after that point – ECG machines/heart monitor, all that.

The patient’s always oxygenated with 100% oxygen (administered through a few mask).

The seizures aren’t meant to last more than 30 seconds to one minute.




Treatments given x3 per week—most people need 6 to 12 treatments (in other words up to a month of ECT) for it to work in full. First response usually seen after the third treatment.

Since muscle relaxants were introduced fractures are super rare. ECT’s no more risky than any other major surgery.

The amnesia people mention only happens to some people and doesn’t usually extend to the events a week before ECT until after the last treatment.

Outside the treatment timeframe memory’s perfectly clear.

ECT’s been known to cause mania in bipolar depressed people.

Someone closer the top of this thread said that ECT doesn’t alter the natural course of the illness and that it just suppress symptoms. That’s true but there’s people that depressed that the ECT saved them in the same way that Lazarus resurrected from the dead. It brings people out of the danger zone.

Maintenance ECT is sometimes given to people who relapse—about one treatment a week for 2 months and then tapered down.


Summarised as much as I could. Holla if you've still got questions though.

I know you didn't read that post or anything else on this thread from before you started posting.

[Redway]

A quick google search could get you the outline of a procedure and possible side effects.... it doesn't make you some oracle on the subject...clinicians have debated for decades about the efficacy of ECT, so why do you feel the need to advocate it to the point of insulting anyone who challenges the concept?
You were rude and condescending to mock earlier in the thread and have done nothing but barrack me on the subject for several hours. I'm going to leave it for now until I've read some of the info you got around to posting.

Mock's more than capable of sticking up for himself in this thread if he felt patronised but he hasn't so I wouldn't put words in people's mouths just because you feel insulted.

This thread's something me and Twosugars have been talking about creating for months. You reckon a quick google search is the only effort that's gone into it?

[Maru]

Indications: psychotic depression (especially bipolar), acute episodes of schizophrenia, autism (apparently) and Parkinson’s disease. As a side they reckon that ECT isn’t used nearly enough with end-stage Parkinson’s patients.

That's very interesting about ECT & Parkinsons... my mother has Dystonia (very similar) and they did an experimental surgery where they inserted a metal probe into the top of her skull, connected it to a wire that goes through her neck to a battery that's put in her heart... it regularly sends impulses to the probe... anyway, it's been a miracle for her. She's never had a resting posture or what we could call a "stance" in her life... she's now walking upright where before she used to lean at a dramatic angle when walking and she can manipulate things in her hands now where she used to drop them and shake uncontrollably... I forget what the surgery is called, but they've asked our family for years to participate in that program...

Edit: I said skull, I meant brain -_- (but yeah that too)

[Twosugars]

^ That's amazing, Maru. Goes to show what a difference a modern ECT can make.

[Twosugars]

This is a NHS depression test, very similar to the previous one posted

https://www.nhs.uk/Tools/Pages/depression.aspx

And here more general mood assessment tool

https://www.nhs.uk/Tools/Pages/Mood-self-assessment.aspx?Tag=Self+assessments

[Maru]

^ That's amazing, Maru. Goes to show what a difference a modern ECT can make.

Yeah, I think without trying different things or pursuing new research in current areas, we may leave important rocks upturned ... like that wonderful article I posted in SD about Chinese Animal Testing and how ethics in the US have affected research... yeah there's potential those conditions can be done poorly without proper oversight, but the downside is if we don't do any testing, we won't really learn more about those conditions...

China Is Genetically Engineering Monkeys With Brain Disorders
http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342279

I still think chronic pain and mental health have a significant link... they seem to really do in particular with women... which might be one reason why the number of women is higher, that they often suffer worse? For Fibromyalgia & IC, the number of women is also dramatically high... IC is a problem with the bladder, but considered a nerve disorder, so it's a bit bizarre...

[Maru]

Redway, this is a suggestion, but maybe update your OP with the educational material you've posted... since your thread is so sticky and all :love:

[Redway]

Redway, this is a suggestion, but maybe update your OP with the educational material you've posted... since your thread is so sticky and all :love:

You mean the ECT stuff?

[Redway]

Thank you, Niamh. Your and other mods support for this thread is gratefully appreciated!

Some ideas for future discussion before Redway gives us an overview of ECT:

-noticed there's fair few members on antidepressant medication, so propose creating an anonymous poll in order to identify which meds are taken so that we can then discuss them in more detail; as in any poll thread, there will be an opportunity to post if anybody wishes, but the poll itself would be anonymous
-anxiety as opposed to depression, what is it and its symptoms
-autism
-suicidal ideation (thinking of suicide) - cry for help
-overview of personality disorders - plain introduction listing them and providing symptoms plus when personality traits turn into personality disorders?

Let us know what would you like covered.

BIB 1: I'd have to do that in a separate thread but it's not a bad idea at all.

BIB 2: I take it you've got borderline PD in mind more than others?

[Mystic Mock]

A quick google search could get you the outline of a procedure and possible side effects.... it doesn't make you some oracle on the subject...clinicians have debated for decades about the efficacy of ECT, so why do you feel the need to advocate it to the point of insulting anyone who challenges the concept?
You were rude and condescending to mock earlier in the thread and have done nothing but barrack me on the subject for several hours. I'm going to leave it for now until I've read some of the info you got around to posting.

Thanks for having my back Kizzy.:)

But I feel like me and Redway were just giving each other a strong debate more than being rude to each other, at least I hope we both came off that way anyway as no rudeness was intended.:laugh:


I'm not gonna take sides on the debate between you guys though as other people are more informed than me on this subject on who has more valid points on the topic. Plus I like you both and don't want to take sides in a heated debate like this.

[Twosugars]

BIB 1: I'd have to do that in a separate thread but it's not a bad idea at all.

BIB 2: I take it you've got borderline PD in mind more than others?

Re.1 Yes, I think so too. A separate poll with discussion.
Re.2 Well, I'd like us to cover all of them, but perhaps most common could be given more prominence (borderline, antisocial, narcissistic etc). So maybe brief intro first and then go into detail

[Redway]

Re.1 Yes, I think so too. A separate poll with discussion.
Re.2 Well, I'd like us to cover all of them, but perhaps most common could be given more prominence (borderline, antisocial, narcissistic etc). So maybe brief intro first and then go into detail

BIB - yup, makes sense to me. I just know that borderline out of all the PDs has more parallels with things like depression but we can touch on all of them, yh.

[Maru]

You mean the ECT stuff?

Yes

[Maru]

Pretty sure the surgery was this...

Deep Brain Stimulation
https://www.dystonia-foundation.org/living-with-dystonia/neurosurgery/brain-surgeries/deep-brain-stimulation
Deep brain stimulation (DBS) is a surgical procedure used to treat a variety of neurological disorders, including movement dystonias such as dystonia. A battery-powered stimulator —essentially a brain pacemaker—is surgically implanted and delivers electrical stimulation to the areas of the brain associated with dystonia. The stimulator is implanted into the chest or abdomen, and extension wires connect the stimulator to leads deep in the brain.

How Does DBS Treat Dystonia?
Although DBS has proven to be a safe and effective treatment for a variety of disorders, the exact mechanism of action is not fully understood; doctors know it works, they just can’t exactly explain why. Dystonia symptoms result when excessive signaling from the brain causes involuntary muscle contractions and movements. The stimulation delivered to the brain by the DBS stimulator suppresses theses excessive signals, thereby lessening the dystonia symptoms.

Sort of like when they overfill the bladder during hydrodistension and piss the little nerve-endings off and interrupts them... lead to months of pain relief... :spin: Science ...

[Redway]

I thought as much. DBS is used for severe OCD as well.

[Redway]

Out of interest does anyone on here have misophonia /4S (sensitivity to certain soft sounds)?

[Twosugars]

I've complied a list of subforums on the largest mental health forum, psychforums.com
I thought it may help us choose other topics for discussion.
Here it goes:

Anger Management

Anti-Psychiatry Forum

Cutting and Self Injury Forum

Grief and Loss Forum

Hope, Healing and Coping.

Relationship Forum

Remorse

Mental Health and Significant Others, Family & Friends Forum

Bullying Forum

Child Abuse Forum

Domestic Violence

Sexual Abuse and Incest Forum

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Forum

Agoraphobia Forum

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) Forum

Social Phobia Forum

Generalized Anxiety Disorder Forum

Tourette's Syndrome Forum

Autism Forum

Oppositional Defiant Disorder Forum

Asperger's Syndrome Forum

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Forum

Stuttering, Dyslexia, Learning Difficulties Forum

Selective Mutism Forum

Reactive Attachment Disorder Forum

Conduct Disorder Forum

Childhood Disorder NOS Forum

Alzheimer's Disease Forum

Dementia Forum

Delirium Forum

Cognitive Disorder NOS Forum

Depersonalization Disorder Forum

Dissociative Identity Disorder Forum

Dissociative Fugue Forum

Dissociative Disorder NOS Forum

Dissociative Amnesia Forum

Anorexia Nervosa Forum

Bulimia Nervosa Forum

Binge Eating Disorder Forum

Munchausen Syndrome Forum

Factitious Disorder Forum

Shoplifting Addiction

Trichotillomania Forum

Intermittent Explosive Disorder Forum

Compulsive Lying Forum

Bipolar Disorder Forum


Seasonal Affective Disorder Forum

Clinical Depression Forum

Postpartum Depression Forum

Antisocial Personality Disorder Forum

Borderline Personality Disorder Forum

Avoidant Personality Disorder Forum

Narcissistic Personality Disorder Forum

Histrionic Personality Disorder Forum

Schizoid Personality Disorder Forum

Delusional Disorder Forum

Schizophrenia Forum

Sexual Addiction Forum

Gender Identity Disorder Forum

Sexual Dysfunctions Forum

Paraphilias (Fetishes, BDSM) Forum

Sexual Disorder NOS Forum

Insomnia Forum

Nightmare Disorder Forum

Primary Sleep Disorders Forum

Undifferentiated Somatoform Disorder Forum

Somatoform Disorder NOS Forum

Somatization Disorder Forum

Pain Disorder Forum

Hypochondriasis Forum

Conversion Disorder Forum

Body Dysmorphic Disorder Forum

Spending Addiction Forum

Substance Abuse Disorders Forum

Internet Addiction Forum

Food Addiction Forum

Medication

Therapy

Coping Methods & Techniques

Womens Health

Mens Health

Physical Health

Parenting Forum

[Redway]

Anyone got any questions about mental health?

[arista]

Anyone got any questions about mental health?


Has tibb , helped you?

[Redway]

Has tibb , helped you?

In what way?

[arista]

In what way?

Better understanding

[Jessica.]

TiBB helped me with understanding that you can't just guess anyone's backstory, you have to think about what everyone has been through and how they are doing mentally before you judge them.

[Twosugars]

Maybe we could kick off a tour through personality disorders? Starting with an overview and then stopping at more common ones.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders
The 10 Personality Disorders
A short, sharp look into the 10 personality disorders.
Neel Burton, M.D.


The study of human personality or "character" (from the Greek charaktêr, the mark impressed upon a coin) dates back at least to antiquity. In his Characters, Tyrtamus (371-287 B.C.) — nicknamed Theophrastus or "divinely speaking" by his contemporary Aristotle — divided the people of 4th century B.C. Athens into 30 different personality types, including "arrogance," "irony," and "boastfulness." Characters exerted a strong influence on subsequent studies of human personality, such as those of Thomas Overbury (1581-1613) in England and Jean de la Bruyère (1645-1696) in France.

The concept of personality disorder itself is much more recent and tentatively dates back to psychiatrist Philippe Pinel’s 1801 description of manie sans délire, a condition which he characterized as outbursts of rage and violence (manie) in the absence of any symptoms of psychosis, such as delusions and hallucinations (délires).

Across the English Channel, physician JC Prichard (1786-1848) coined the term "moral insanity" in 1835 to refer to a larger group of people who were characterized by "morbid perversion of the natural feelings, affections, inclinations, temper, habits, moral dispositions and natural impulses," but the term, probably considered too broad and non-specific, soon fell into disuse.

Some 60 years later, in 1896, psychiatrist Emil Kraepelin (1856-1926) described seven forms of antisocial behavior under the umbrella of "psychopathic personality," a term later broadened by Kraepelin’s younger colleague Kurt Schneider (1887-1967) to include those who "suffer from their abnormality."

Schneider’s seminal volume of 1923, Die psychopathischen Persönlichkeiten (Psychopathic Personalities), still forms the basis of current classifications of personality disorders, such as those contained in the influential American classification of mental disorders, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 5th Revision (DSM-5).

According to DSM-5, a personality disorder can be diagnosed if there are significant impairments in self and interpersonal functioning together with one or more pathological personality traits. In addition, these features must be (1) relatively stable across time and consistent across situations, (2) not better understood as normative for the individual’s developmental stage or socio-cultural environment, and (3) not solely due to the direct effects of a substance or general medical condition.

The DSM-5 lists 10 personality disorders and allocates each to one of three groups or "clusters": A, B, or C.

Cluster A (Odd, bizarre, eccentric)

Paranoid PD, Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD

Cluster B (Dramatic, erratic)

Antisocial PD, Borderline PD, Histrionic PD, Narcissistic PD

Cluster C (Anxious, fearful)

Avoidant PD, Dependent PD, Obsessive-compulsive PD

Before going on to characterize these 10 personality disorders, it should be emphasized that they are more the product of historical observation than of scientific study, and thus that they are rather vague and imprecise constructs. As a result, they rarely present in their classic "textbook" form, but instead tend to blur into one another. Their division into three clusters in DSM-5 is intended to reflect this tendency, with any given personality disorder most likely to blur with other personality disorders within its cluster. For instance, in cluster A, paranoid personality is most likely to blur with schizoid personality disorder and schizotypal personality disorder.

The majority of people with a personality disorder never come into contact with mental health services, and those who do usually do so in the context of another mental disorder or at a time of crisis, commonly after self-harming or breaking the law. Nevertheless, personality disorders are important to health professionals, because they predispose to mental disorder and affect the presentation and management of existing mental disorders. They also result in considerable distress and impairment, and so may need to be treated "in their own right." Whether this ought to be the remit of the health professions is a matter of debate and controversy, especially with regard to those personality disorders which predispose to criminal activity, and which are often treated with the primary purpose of preventing crime.

1. Paranoid personality disorder

Cluster A is comprised of paranoid, schizoid, and schizotypal personality disorders. Paranoid personality disorder is characterized by a pervasive distrust of others, including even friends, family, and partners. As a result, this person is guarded, suspicious, and constantly on the lookout for clues or suggestions to validate his fears. He also has a strong sense of personal rights: He is overly sensitive to setbacks and rebuffs, easily feels shame and humiliation, and persistently bears grudges. Unsurprisingly, he tends to withdraw from others and to struggle with building close relationships. The principal ego defense in paranoid PD is projection, which involves attributing one’s unacceptable thoughts and feelings to other people. A large, long-term twin study found that paranoid PD is modestly heritable, and that it shares a portion of its genetic and environmental risk factors with schizoid PD and schizotypal PD.

2. Schizoid personality disorder

The term "schizoid" designates a natural tendency to direct attention toward one’s inner life and away from the external world. A person with schizoid PD is detached and aloof and prone to introspection and fantasy. He has no desire for social or sexual relationships, is indifferent to others and to social norms and conventions, and lacks emotional response. A competing theory about people with schizoid PD is that they are in fact highly sensitive with a rich inner life: They experience a deep longing for intimacy, but find initiating and maintaining close relationships too difficult or distressing, and so retreat into their inner world. People with schizoid PD rarely present to medical attention, because despite their reluctance to form close relationships, they are generally well functioning and quite untroubled by their apparent oddness.

3. Schizotypal disorder

Schizotypal PD is characterized by oddities of appearance, behavior, and speech, unusual perceptual experiences, and anomalies of thinking similar to those seen in schizophrenia. These latter can include odd beliefs, magical thinking (for instance, thinking that speaking of the devil can make him appear), suspiciousness, and obsessive ruminations. People with schizotypal PD often fear social interaction and think of others as harmful. This may lead them to develop so-called ideas of reference — that is, beliefs or intuitions that events and happenings are somehow related to them. So whereas people with schizotypal PD and people with schizoid PD both avoid social interaction, with the former it is because they fear others, whereas with the latter it is because they have no desire to interact with others or find interacting with others too difficult. People with schizotypal PD have a higher than average probability of developing schizophrenia, and the condition used to be called "latent schizophrenia."

4. Antisocial personality disorder

Cluster B is comprised of antisocial, borderline, histrionic, and narcissistic personality disorders. Until psychiatrist Kurt Schneider (1887-1967) broadened the concept of personality disorder to include those who "suffer from their abnormality," personality disorder was more or less synonymous with antisocial personality disorder. Antisocial PD is much more common in men than in women and is characterized by a callous unconcern for the feelings of others. The person disregards social rules and obligations, is irritable and aggressive, acts impulsively, lacks guilt, and fails to learn from experience. In many cases, he has no difficulty finding relationships — and can even appear superficially charming (the so-called "charming psychopath") — but these relationships are usually fiery, turbulent, and short-lived. As antisocial PD is the mental disorder most closely correlated with crime, he is likely to have a criminal record or a history of being in and out of prison.

5. Borderline personality disorder

In borderline PD (or emotionally unstable PD), the person essentially lacks a sense of self and, as a result, experiences feelings of emptiness and fears of abandonment. There is a pattern of intense but unstable relationships, emotional instability, outbursts of anger and violence (especially in response to criticism), and impulsive behavior. Suicidal threats and acts of self-harm are common, for which reason many people with borderline PD frequently come to medical attention. Borderline PD was so called, because it was thought to lie on the "borderline" between neurotic (anxiety) disorders and psychotic disorders, such as schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. It has been suggested that borderline personality disorder often results from childhood sexual abuse, and that it is more common in women, in part because women are more likely to suffer sexual abuse. However, feminists have argued that borderline PD is more common in women, because women presenting with angry and promiscuous behavior tend to be labeled with it, whereas men presenting with similar behaviour tend instead to be labeled with antisocial PD.

6. Histrionic personality disorder

People with histrionic PD lack a sense of self-worth and depend on attracting the attention and approval of others for their wellbeing. They often seem to be dramatizing or "playing a part" in a bid to be heard and seen. Indeed, "histrionic" derives from the Latin histrionicus, "pertaining to the actor." People with histrionic PD may take great care of their appearance and behave in a manner that is overly charming or inappropriately seductive. As they crave excitement and act on impulse or suggestion, they can place themselves at risk of accident or exploitation. Their dealings with others often seem insincere or superficial, which in the longer term can adversely impact their social and romantic relationships. This is especially distressing to them, as they are sensitive to criticism and rejection and react badly to loss or failure. A vicious circle may take hold in which the more rejected they feel, the more histrionic they become — and the more histrionic they become, the more rejected they feel. It can be argued that a vicious circle of some kind is at the heart of every personality disorder and, indeed, every mental disorder.

7. Narcissistic personality disorder

In narcissistic PD, the person has an extreme feeling of self-importance, a sense of entitlement, and a need to be admired. He is envious of others and expects them to be the same of him. He lacks empathy and readily lies and exploits others to achieve his aims. To others, he may seem self-absorbed, controlling, intolerant, selfish, or insensitive. If he feels obstructed or ridiculed, he can fly into a fit of destructive anger and revenge. Such a reaction is sometimes called "narcissistic rage" and can have disastrous consequences for all those involved.

8. Avoidant personality disorder

Cluster C is comprised of avoidant, dependent, and anankastic personality disorders. People with avoidant PD believe that they are socially inept, unappealing, or inferior, and constantly fear being embarrassed, criticized, or rejected. They avoid meeting others unless they are certain of being liked and are restrained even in their intimate relationships. Avoidant PD is strongly associated with anxiety disorders, and may also be associated with actual or felt rejection by parents or peers in childhood. Research suggests that people with avoidant PD excessively monitor internal reactions, both their own and those of others, which prevents them from engaging naturally or fluently in social situations. A vicious circle takes hold in which the more they monitor their internal reactions, the more inept they feel; and the more inept they feel, the more they monitor their internal reactions.

9. Dependent personality disorder

Dependent PD is characterized by a lack of self-confidence and an excessive need to be looked after. This person needs a lot of help in making everyday decisions and surrenders important life decisions to the care of others. He greatly fears abandonment and may go through considerable lengths to secure and maintain relationships. A person with dependent PD sees himself as inadequate and helpless, and so surrenders his personal responsibility and submits himself to one or more protective others. He imagines that he is at one with these protective other(s), whom he idealizes as competent and powerful, and towards whom he behaves in a manner that is ingratiating and self-effacing. People with dependent PD often end up with people with a cluster B personality disorder, who feed on the unconditional high regard in which they are held. Overall, people with dependent PD maintain a naïve and child-like perspective and have limited insight into themselves and others. This entrenches their dependency, leaving them vulnerable to abuse and exploitation.

10. Anankastic (obsessive-compulsive) personality disorder

Anankastic PD is characterized by an excessive preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules; perfectionism so extreme that it prevents a task from being completed; and devotion to work and productivity at the expense of leisure and relationships. A person with anankastic PD is typically doubting and cautious, rigid and controlling, humorless, and miserly. His underlying anxiety arises from a perceived lack of control over a world that eludes his understanding, and the more he tries to exert control, the more out of control he feels. As a consequence, he has little tolerance for complexity or nuance, and tends to simplify the world by seeing things as either all good or all bad. His relationships with colleagues, friends, and family are often strained by the unreasonable and inflexible demands that he makes upon them.

Closing remarks

While personality disorders may differ from mental disorders, like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, they do, by definition, lead to significant impairment. They are estimated to affect about 10 percent of people, although this figure ultimately depends on where clinicians draw the line between a "normal" personality and one that leads to significant impairment. Characterizing the 10 personality disorders is difficult, but diagnosing them reliably is even more so. For instance, how far from the norm must personality traits deviate before they can be counted as disordered? How significant is "significant impairment"? And how is "impairment" to be defined?

Whatever the answers to these questions, they are bound to include a large part of subjectivity. Personal dislike, prejudice, or a clash of values can all play a part in arriving at a diagnosis of personality disorder, and it has been argued that the diagnosis amounts to little more than a convenient label for undesirables and social deviants.

Adapted from the new second edition of The Meaning of Madness (2015).

[Nicky91]

i have an obsessive personality and that combined with extreme opinions, plus i get emotional when supporting my favourites

i like talking about my problems, it makes me feel a bit more relaxed

[Redway]

i have an obsessive personality and that combined with extreme opinions, plus i get emotional when supporting my favourites

i like talking about my problems, it makes me feel a bit more relaxed

That’s all to do with your autism pal. Having an anankastic personality is something different so don’t worry. You don’t have a personality disorder.

[Zizu]

i have an obsessive personality and that combined with extreme opinions, plus i get emotional when supporting my favourites

i like talking about my problems, it makes me feel a bit more relaxed



You sound just like me :)
I'm Aspergers ...

I get into so much trouble on footie forums for thinking differently to most :(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Twosugars]

I mean, depends how extreme the opinions are. Everybody is allowed their opinion, no need to follow the herd. Do you two choose to have contrary opinions for the sake of being different or are they genuinely held opinions?

[Redway]

Any questions?

[Nicky91]

You sound just like me :)
I'm Aspergers ...

I get into so much trouble on footie forums for thinking differently to most :(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

aw :hug:

[Redway]

Let’s try and pick the pace up some. Interaction’s too low.

[RileyH]

Any questions?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FewMarriedBuck-small.gif

[JoshBB]

"Teenagers today have the same anxiety levels as psychiatric patients in 1950"

I read this somewhere today and I wondered if there's actually any statistical/scientific basis to it

[Redway]

"Teenagers today have the same anxiety levels as psychiatric patients in 1950"

I read this somewhere today and I wondered if there's actually any statistical/scientific basis to it

There’s an element of truth to that but anxiety patients back then tend to be outpatients these days. That statement makes it sound like all stressed-out teens are certifiable even by archaic asylum standards. Luckily not quite.

[Jessica.]

This is a NHS depression test, very similar to the previous one posted

https://www.nhs.uk/Tools/Pages/depression.aspx

And here more general mood assessment tool

https://www.nhs.uk/Tools/Pages/Mood-self-assessment.aspx?Tag=Self+assessments

:skull:
http://puu.sh/BI6qZ/0ca7a6d93d.png

[Redway]

:skull:
http://puu.sh/BI6qZ/0ca7a6d93d.png

Anything you want to talk about?

[Maru]

JLZMEGtGihY

[Nicky91]

my autism, well it's more a light form of autism, i more have difficulties irl lack of social contacts, i dislike too crowded places

i also have an obsessive personality (which most of you might've noticed the way i get obsessed with my favourites), and i have extreme opinions

[Twosugars]

but sometimes it seems as if you post an extreme opinion just to get a reaction
do you like being centre of attention, Nicky?

[Nicky91]

but sometimes it seems as if you post an extreme opinion just to get a reaction
do you like being centre of attention, Nicky?

no i don't like that, maybe i need to learn just counting to 10 more

[Redway]

my autism, well it's more a light form of autism, i more have difficulties irl lack of social contacts, i dislike too crowded places

i also have an obsessive personality (which most of you might've noticed the way i get obsessed with my favourites), and i have extreme opinions

Are your problems with social interaction more down to feeling hypersensitive or not sensitive enough to the outside world?

[LaLaLand]

Just want to say - if anyone wants to talk anytime about mental health or problems surrounding it, I'm here. It's sometimes nicer to vent to a complete stranger so to speak than someone you know.

I've been diagnosed for 10 years now with severe anxiety and depression and have had it all, including the lowest of lows but have fought my way out of the worst of it and got my life back (ish). Always here. x

[Maru]

Just want to say - if anyone wants to talk anytime about mental health or problems surrounding it, I'm here. It's sometimes nicer to vent to a complete stranger so to speak than someone you know.

I've been diagnosed for 10 years now with severe anxiety and depression and have had it all, including the lowest of lows but have fought my way out of the worst of it and got my life back (ish). Always here. x

:clap1:

[Maru]

my autism, well it's more a light form of autism, i more have difficulties irl lack of social contacts, i dislike too crowded places

i also have an obsessive personality (which most of you might've noticed the way i get obsessed with my favourites), and i have extreme opinions

but sometimes it seems as if you post an extreme opinion just to get a reaction
do you like being centre of attention, Nicky?

Nicky is one of the most natural users (we're more than just "users" obvs) on the board. Not many people are going to advertise the most blunt of their personalities so visibly. I imagine with something like autism, the contention and difficulties with socializing irl, it makes sense that someone experiencing that level of inner contention can just seem to spill over onto TiBB...

So yeah I don't get that impression from Nicky at all. What else do most of us have on TIBB but our avid opinions.... that's pretty much what most forums is all about. Oh, and sexy avas and leveling our God-level gif skillz...

[Nicky91]

aw how lovely of you to say Maru :blush:

[Twosugars]

Nicky is one of the most natural users (we're more than just "users" obvs) on the board. Not many people are going to advertise the most blunt of their personalities so visibly. I imagine with something like autism, the contention and difficulties with socializing irl, it makes sense that someone experiencing that level of inner contention can just seem to spill over onto TiBB...

So yeah I don't get that impression from Nicky at all. What else do most of us have on TIBB but our avid opinions.... that's pretty much what most forums is all about. Oh, and sexy avas and leveling our God-level gif skillz...

aw, good of you, Maru, but... in the chat threads every now and then Nicky likes to come up with short statements designed to annoy, which he then proceeds to laugh off :shrug: So it's not about any deeply held opinions, more like trolling for attention. Ask any chat regulars, they will tell you all about it :hee:

[Redway]

aw, good of you, Maru, but... in the chat threads every now and then Nicky likes to come up with short statements designed to annoy, which he then proceeds to laugh off :shrug: So it's not about any deeply held opinions, more like trolling for attention. Ask any chat regulars, they will tell you all about it :hee:

Come on man. It’s obviously not easy for Nicky.

[Smithy]

Come on man. It’s obviously not easy for Nicky.

You don’t make racist comments and then use autism as an excuse

[Twosugars]

Sorry to be blunt, but both you Redway and Maru don't come to chat threads much if at all. You don't know what I'm talking about.
The irony is that usually I'm defending Nicky in there while others have had enough.
Nvm, not sure it is on topic here. Plus we're not going to get to the bottom of it anyway.

[Black Dagger]

You don’t make racist comments and then use autism as an excuse

:clap1:

[Nicky91]

You don’t make racist comments and then use autism as an excuse

:oh: since when is my handicap a mere excuse


:inamood:

[RileyH]

Ask any chat regulars, they will tell you all about it :hee:

:shame:

[Jules82]

Depression, I guess we have all been there, a form of mental illness definitely to a certain extent. A feeling of non worth so many things. My daughter had a lot of illnesses due to being disabled. She had the courage to overcome, she was strong and helped many others both in the animal kingdom and human.

Through my daughters life I went down, down down mentally but I overcame through meditation and spiritual books. I understand we are all spirit and sometimes we are our worst enemy for spirit is free.

Then I guess we have the failure of vitimins and substantial things for our brains and bodies. Birth problems ...... so many things to consider.

So much help to be found though, depending on the severity I would suggest listing our negative and our positives to see if it helps. I wrote everything down, got it out of my system, I survived.

We can only think for ourselves as we are the only one who really knows what we are going through so as I say help is always at hand.

[Maru]

aw, good of you, Maru, but... in the chat threads every now and then Nicky likes to come up with short statements designed to annoy, which he then proceeds to laugh off :shrug: So it's not about any deeply held opinions, more like trolling for attention. Ask any chat regulars, they will tell you all about it :hee:

I've seen borderline commentary said here already so it is not a stretch for me that those commentaries could cross lines. I tend to think the worst of TiBB rubs off onto others here in other negative ways. Not just Nicky, but just in general, this board can have that effect on how others treat each other here. Yes, including racism and vindictive/attention-seeking behavior which, which I think no illness or disposition here has a monopoly on. But in his defense, Nicky has always been the character chameleon. He picks up on traits and imo, it is like tries different things based on what others may say here, but in more literal ways. This is to good, bad, charming effect, etc... pick an adjective.. but it is not at all surprising the commentary could reach towards racial commentary with all the racial discussions that are ever-present on TiBB. So whatever was said wouldn't change my perception of him because of the way he has always fit in with the group.

On a personal note, my single mother is a perpetual child physically, emotionally, mentally... So what some will see as black&white, has always been a matter of comfort and convenience to me, because I've never had the choice but to force myself to understand odd behavior. She may very well be severely autistic, but she goes off the map if we suggest something mental health-related. My mother is also a character chameleon and I think that is very common with people who see social activities as more literal participate& reward cycles... online, it is like she is a character from all the shows she watch. That is all she actually does is watch media, especially talk shows and those court shows, and it forms most of her understandings of other people. If someone upsets her or wrongs her in a major way, they should go to jail or have ppl accost them in her mind... bc that is what happens on TV.

[Twosugars]

I spoke as his friend. Only asked him about it here bc he started posting about himself. :shrug:
But somehow don't think it will help if we drill this further.

[Beso]

Nicky is one of the most natural users (we're more than just "users" obvs) on the board. Not many people are going to advertise the most blunt of their personalities so visibly. I imagine with something like autism, the contention and difficulties with socializing irl, it makes sense that someone experiencing that level of inner contention can just seem to spill over onto TiBB...

So yeah I don't get that impression from Nicky at all. What else do most of us have on TIBB but our avid opinions.... that's pretty much what most forums is all about. Oh, and sexy avas and leveling our God-level gif skillz...

that is such an insightful and well thought out post maru, i also think you have nailed nicky to a T....He is a great lad, someone i always enjoy talking to on here and has had nothing but kind words to say about people....

[Nicky91]

that is such an insightful and well thought out post maru, i also think you have nailed nicky to a T....He is a great lad, someone i always enjoy talking to on here and has had nothing but kind words to say about people....

:blush:

aw thank you Parmy, same about you, i like your good sense of humour on here

[Redway]

Anyone got anything they want to add?

[Redway]

Taking questions about epilepsy and OCD in particular this week. Anyone got any questions?

[Marsh.]

Letting them wear their own clothes to school works an absolute treat for anxiety. :)

[Cherie]

What are your thoughts on alcohol/drug use in relation to mental health? in particular in helping us through 'bad days' in our lives

[Redway]

What are your thoughts on alcohol/drug use in relation to mental health? in particular in helping us through 'bad days' in our lives

Casual use or addiction?

[Cherie]

You could start with addiction, though personally I think everyone suffers from mental health issues at stressful times of their lives, bereavement, divorce, exams, redundancy etc and can use either as a crutch to help them through

[Redway]

What are your thoughts on alcohol/drug use in relation to mental health? in particular in helping us through 'bad days' in our lives

More bad than good things to say for that type of approach. I’d warn impulsive/suicidal people off cocaine in particular but ketamine and certain shrooms are supposed to help. I’d rather do them in a controlled lab environment if I was in that scenario though.

[Redway]

Anyone had any experiences with misophonia/selective sound sensitivity?

[michael21]

Anyone had any experiences with misophonia/selective sound sensitivity?

Can we make suggestion of topics you can cover

[Redway]

Can we make suggestion of topics you can cover

Sure.

[Ant.]

Redway I hope you don't mind me asking and I hope I don't seem ignorant (as I've not seen this thread), but can I ask how you're informing people? Like is it information from online? Textbooks? Are you a medical professional? I'm just curious because you're not putting sources and you seem to know what you're on about

[Kizzy]

Can I suggest vaping as a controversial treatment for cessation of smoking? Personally I feel in the future it will be looked upon as the most stupid idea since passing voltage through brains imo.
The topic of depression and addiction was glossed over a bit quickly, it's a very contemporary issue at the moment as stress leads very easily to crutches of many types as a coping mechanism. I'd go as far as to say these are passed down through families.

[Redway]

Redway I hope you don't mind me asking and I hope I don't seem ignorant (as I've not seen this thread), but can I ask how you're informing people? Like is it information from online? Textbooks? Are you a medical professional? I'm just curious because you're not putting sources and you seem to know what you're on about

Let's just say I've got enough experience and understanding to answer your questions on what you want to know.

[michael21]

Let's just say I've got enough experience and understanding to answer your questions on what you want to know.

So you been thought the system

[Redway]

So you been thought the system

There’s people opening up about their expressions with depression and suicide on this thread and you’re here trolling. No one’s giving you the reaction you want so you might as well drop it.

[Redway]

This thread’s for people who want to make active contributions.

[michael21]

[QUOTE=Redway;10613912]There’s people opening up about their expressions with depression and suicide on this thread and you’re here trolling. No one’s giving you the reaction you want so you might as well drop it.[/QUOTE

I not made any jokes in this thread it should be open for all to post do you agree

[Redway]

That’s nice.

[LaLaLand]

I've recently been put back on medication and referred to the hospital for counselling/CBT sessions after years of being med and panic attack free so I'll contribute my upcoming experiences with it all if I remember.

Always here to talk also if anyone needs, I'm a bit of an axniety/depression expert now sadly. :joker:

[michael21]

I've recently been put back on medication and referred to the hospital for counselling/CBT sessions after years of being med and panic attack free so I'll contribute my upcoming experiences with it all if I remember.

Always here to talk also if anyone needs, I'm a bit of an axniety/depression expert now sadly. :joker:

At least the help there for you stay strong

[Redway]

I've recently been put back on medication and referred to the hospital for counselling/CBT sessions after years of being med and panic attack free so I'll contribute my upcoming experiences with it all if I remember.

Always here to talk also if anyone needs, I'm a bit of an axniety/depression expert now sadly. :joker:

Is panic disorder your diagnosis?

[LaLaLand]

Is panic disorder your diagnosis?

Yes. Almost daily severe physical panic attacks mixed in [now] with depression and also a bout of ME so I've been having a whale of a time lately!

[michael21]

Yes. Almost daily severe physical panic attacks mixed in [now] with depression and also a bout of ME so I've been having a whale of a time lately!

I hand you over to redway

[LaLaLand]

At least the help there for you stay strong

Thanks mate!

[Redway]

Yes. Almost daily severe physical panic attacks mixed in [now] with depression and also a bout of ME so I've been having a whale of a time lately!

Trust me when I say I know how scary panic attacks are so you’re not alone. Do you get agoraphobia with it as well?

CBT and SSRIs are your best bet for beating panic attacks but you might need something else on top of that if your daily movements are restricted a lot.

[Twosugars]

Can I suggest vaping as a controversial treatment for cessation of smoking? Personally I feel in the future it will be looked upon as the most stupid idea since passing voltage through brains imo.
The topic of depression and addiction was glossed over a bit quickly, it's a very contemporary issue at the moment as stress leads very easily to crutches of many types as a coping mechanism. I'd go as far as to say these are passed down through families.

Idk how vaping is marketed but I always thought of it as a stage, like nicotine gums or patches. It is a step in the right direction as it does away with non nicotine carcinogens. But it is not doing away with nicotine addiction as such. That should follow next

Also passing voltage through the brain is not as stupid as it may sound. After all neuronal conductivity is largely electrical. I'd expect this treatment to continue in more refined and targeted way in future.

[michael21]

Trust me when I say I know how scary panic attacks are so you’re not alone. Do you get agoraphobia with it as well?

CBT and SSRIs are your best bet for beating panic attacks but you might need something else on top of that if your daily movements are restricted a lot.

Good to see you opening up tell more I try and help if I can

[LaLaLand]

Trust me when I say I know how scary panic attacks are so I feel you on that. Do you get agoraphobia with it as well?

CBT and SSRIs are your best bet for beating panic attacks but you might need something else on top of that if your daily movements are restricted a lot.

Yeah they're awful, started having them when I was about 17 and I'm now 29 so it's been a long time but after about 2/3 years of nothing at all a traumatic time earlier this year brought them back and 10x worse physically.

I had CBT sessions back in the day after I was originally diagnosed and after a few rounds and different techniques I was able to manage, but I've forgotten everything through lack of need from those which is why I'm going back mainly.

Agoraphobia kind of yeah when I have bad spells just purely to do with "what if I have a PA when I'm out and about" you know? But most of the time I just have no ambition/want/energy to go anywhere or see anyone. "Not in the mood".

[user104658]

Trust me when I say I know how scary panic attacks are so you’re not alone. Do you get agoraphobia with it as well?

CBT and SSRIs are your best bet for beating panic attacks but you might need something else on top of that if your daily movements are restricted a lot.

Redway not to put a debbie downer on the thread but I'm a bit uncomfortable with (and to be honest, the site should be uncomfortable with) you giving out mental health advice with the vague / veiled intimation that you're a mental health professional, as I'm pretty sure you aren't one (as you consistently brush aside or give vague responses when people ask).

There's nothing wrong with giving personal mental health advice, obviously, but you need to be really clear that that's what it is if you're NOT a qualified, certified MH professional. Posing as one and giving authoritative advice puts yourself and the site in a dubious position.

[AnnieK]

I suffered with panic attacks for years (brought on by my own actions and life choices ) - crippling attacks that left me feeling the only safe place was home. I lost count of the number of times I bolted from wherever I was to get home being unable to breathe and convinced this time I would actually die. I had various medications to treat the symptoms and underlying issues but the best advice that worked for me was when a Dr told me to welcome the attack, recognise it for what it was and sort of repeat "this will not kill me" and I honestly can say it worked for me. It took time for me to get it and recognise when an attack was coming and I could then stop it before it got a grip.

[Twosugars]

I suffered with panic attacks for years (brought on by my own actions and life choices ) - crippling attacks that left me feeling the only safe place was home. I lost count of the number of times I bolted from wherever I was to get home being unable to breathe and convinced this time I would actually die. I had various medications to treat the symptoms and underlying issues but the best advice that worked for me was when a Dr told me to welcome the attack, recognise it for what it was and sort of repeat "this will not kill me" and I honestly can say it worked for me. It took time for me to get it and recognise when an attack was coming and I could then stop it before it got a grip.

:love:

[user104658]

a Dr told me to welcome the attack, recognise it for what it was and sort of repeat "this will not kill me" and I honestly can say it worked for me. It took time for me to get it and recognise when an attack was coming and I could then stop it before it got a grip.

I'd say that sounds like he was introducing the basics of CBT, which is about disrupting cognitive distortions (and a panic attack is essentially an out of control cognitive distortion), correcting the thinking, and putting it aside. A lot more complicated than that obviously but even the very basics would probably help many people.

I don't think I've ever had a full blown panic attack. I have suffered with generalised anxiety and TWICE I thought I was on the verge of a panic attack when coming out of the cinema - pounding / racing heart that I couldn't get under control, feeling spaced out and lightheaded, sweating - thought it was maybe about being overwhelmed in the movie...

...have since realised that it happens because I get a massive bucket of fizzy / sour pick 'n' mix and large drink... and tango ice blast... every time I go to the cinema and binge it in the first hour of the movie, so when I get up to leave, I'm in the midst of a catestrophic sugar crash :umm2:.

I worked out that I was consuming nearly half a kilogram of sugar in an hour. HALF A KILOGRAM! An actual half bag of pure sugar :omgno:. Me: "Wow why do I feel so weird..." :facepalm:

[Nicky91]

alongside what you already know about my autism

i also have anxiety, stress problems, for example i easily stress into thinking what other people think of me or my opinions, favourites etc

and also some anger management issues, if something isn't going my way i'll freak out real easily, and i can say some really nasty mean, sometimes quite racist things

reason why i am opening up about this now, i don't want to pretend to be someone i'm not, just being the real me, and because some have been quite irritated by me recently

also when i got obsessions i tend to have more anxiety, anger issues

i love this forum, i like most of its members in here, i just don't want you guys to think i'm some attention seeking troll or a random weirdo

opening up about this puts some weight of my shoulders i guess

[Mitchell]

alongside what you already know about my autism

i also have anxiety, stress problems, for example i easily stress into thinking what other people think of me or my opinions, favourites etc

and also some anger management issues, if something isn't going my way i'll freak out real easily, and i can say some really nasty mean, sometimes quite racist things

reason why i am opening up about this now, i don't want to pretend to be someone i'm not, just being the real me, and because some have been quite irritated by me recently

also when i got obsessions i tend to have more anxiety, anger issues

i love this forum, i like most of its members in here, i just don't want you guys to think i'm some attention seeking troll or a random weirdo

opening up about this puts some weight of my shoulders i guess

No, the reason you’re opening up now is because I screenshotted your racist messages to me and you want to gain more sympathy, you can’t blame your prejudice on anger management...

[Nicky91]

No, the reason you’re opening up now is because I screenshotted your racist messages to me and you want to gain more sympathy, you can’t blame your prejudice on anger management...

no really i didn't do it because of that


if i was to be banned, so be it, but i want to be straightforward about who i am, what my problems are, for people to understand me better

[Marsh.]

:skull: Not autism making you racist.