[arista]

Matt Hancock MP
is correct on this
As Measles Kills


MMR vaccine


Get that or get your kid Out of our Schools

[The Slim Reaper]

I agree with Arista, and it's not often I get to say that.

[arista]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I agree with Arista, and it's not often I get to say that.

Yes its about once a year.

[James]

Where did you read they are to be banned from school?

[arista]

Originally Posted by James

Where did you read they are to be banned from school?

I think its in Conservative Conference this Weekend Manchester
may go Front Page



Sorry its in a Paper (DM)
Was debated Live on Ch5HD AM
(I record it)

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/26/child...nated-9321592/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...e-out-14579302

[user104658]

Do you have an article on this Arista? As I can't find one anywhere.

Personally I'm pro-vax but 100% against government mandated medical procedures. That's never going to change, I'm afraid.

It's also a debate that gives me a massive headache because the "facts" quoted by militant anti-vaxxer AND by militant pro-vaxxers are all utter ****ing nonsense. Rational debate on this went out of the window a LONG time ago. One side has kids dying instantly of brain swelling on being vaccinated - the other is screeching that everyone is going to die of chicken pox and insisting that childhood survival rates in the modern world are mainly down to vaccination. Hint: they are not, they are thanks to sanitation, antibiotics, hospital care and modern fever reduction and rehydration methods. This is well established statistical fact. But if you try mentioning that in a pro vax debate several people will unfailingly lose their heads and start bawling that we're all going to die of rubella, and that vaccines are 100% safe, which that are not. Go and get vaccine box and read the little leaflet inside.

I'm annoyed just thinking about it right now

Facts:

- Vaccines carry risks
- The effectiveness of vaccination is over-emphasised in terms of mortality reduction
- However, vaccine-preventable illnesses have a HIGHER RATE of risks of largely the same things as you'd get as a vaccine side-effect
- So vaccines ARE still a good idea if you understand anything about statistical risk. It's safer to have them than to not have them (by a long way)
- ...I'll still never advocate government-mandated medical procedures. Ever. Of any kind.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Do you have an article on this Arista? As I can't find one anywhere.

Personally I'm pro-vax but 100% against government mandated medical procedures. That's never going to change, I'm afraid.

It's also a debate that gives me a massive headache because the "facts" quoted by militant anti-vaxxer AND by militant pro-vaxxers are all utter ****ing nonsense. Rational debate on this went out of the window a LONG time ago. One side has kids dying instantly of brain swelling on being vaccinated - the other is screeching that everyone is going to die of chicken pox and insisting that childhood survival rates in the modern world are mainly down to vaccination. Hint: they are not, they are thanks to sanitation, antibiotics, hospital care and modern fever reduction and rehydration methods. This is well established statistical fact. But if you try mentioning that in a pro vax debate several people will unfailingly lose their heads and start bawling that we're all going to die of rubella, and that vaccines are 100% safe, which that are not. Go and get vaccine box and read the little leaflet inside.

I'm annoyed just thinking about it right now

Facts:

- Vaccines carry risks
- The effectiveness of vaccination is over-emphasised in terms of mortality reduction
- However, vaccine-preventable illnesses have a HIGHER RATE of risks of largely the same things as you'd get as a vaccine side-effect
- So vaccines ARE still a good idea if you understand anything about statistical risk. It's safer to have them than to not have them (by a long way)
- ...I'll still never advocate government-mandated medical procedures. Ever. Of any kind.

Can't disagree with any of this. Its utterly insane the way both sides go on in vax debates, its embarrassing sometimes. My kids are vaccinated, however, it was my choice to do so, just made the most sense. I did know there were (so small its almost negligible) risks but took the 'chance'.

I would not agree with vaccinations being forced on children tbh. Imagine you were made to do it and you were one of the unlucky few and the child had a bad reaction..just..doesn't seem right at all.

Not sure how I feel about banning unvaccinated kids from school either. What are the options? Given a child HAS to have an education legally? Would it be forcing parents to homeschool..something the huge majority of parents probably couldn't do anyway? IDK really..

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Not sure how I feel about banning unvaccinated kids from school either. What are the options? Given a child HAS to have an education legally? Would it be forcing parents to homeschool..something the huge majority of parents probably couldn't do anyway? IDK really..

Well that's the point really, it's the disingenuous illusion of choice. "Oh of course you can still CHOOSE not to do it... your child will just have to be home-schooled and never attend public events". Which makes it not a choice, and tantamount to being mandatory, just with a caveat for people who are normally against such things to engage some cognitive dissonance and pretend that they're not going against their usual set of values... which a lot of people are willing to do, because certain institutions (mainly US big pharma that's spilled over into UK pop culture) have done a (very) good job of making people disproportionately terrified of communicable disease.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well that's the point really, it's the disingenuous illusion of choice. "Oh of course you can still CHOOSE not to do it... your child will just have to be home-schooled and never attend public events". Which makes it not a choice, and tantamount to being mandatory, just with a caveat for people who are normally against such things to engage some cognitive dissonance and pretend that they're not going against their usual set of values... which a lot of people are willing to do, because certain institutions (mainly US big pharma that's spilled over into UK pop culture) have done a (very) good job of making people disproportionately terrified of communicable disease.

Yeah this seems to be getting more and more common tbh, cognitive dissonance. Purposeful, in many cases I think.

Its not a choice at all if the option is they have to be homeschooled. As I said, so many parents simply could NOT homeschool. It is not as easy as many think it is. And thats before even getting into if the parent works and such..So thats obviously removing their choice entirely.

[Twosugars]

Operations carry risks. So what?

Life is full of risks.

It's a balance of probabilities


Supporting the tory minister on this

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Operations carry risks. So what?

Life is full of risks.

It's a balance of probabilities


Supporting the tory minister on this

Yes and the balance of probabilities is clear that vaccination is the right choice. Choice being the operative word. Enforcing it is a very, very slippery slope.

Just like if you need an operation, getting it is the right choice. I'd be pretty ****ing worried if doctors could just knock you out and put you under the knife without consent. Like I said, no one is ever going to convince me that taking away the right to bodily autonomy is a good idea, for any reason.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes and the balance of probabilities is clear that vaccination is the right choice. Choice being the operative word. Enforcing it is a very, very slippery slope.

Just like if you need an operation, getting it is the right choice. I'd be pretty ****ing worried if doctors could just knock you out and put you under the knife without consent. Like I said, no one is ever going to convince me that taking away the right to bodily autonomy is a good idea, for any reason.

Wouldn't this be done to protect children who are unable to be vaccinated, and as such, rely on herd immunisation to protect them?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Wouldn't this be done to protect children who are unable to be vaccinated, and as such, rely on herd immunisation to protect them?

Yes and also those who have had the MMR but have not developed immunity (which is also a larger proportion than is reported).

But that doesn't really matter because, like I said, I'm against removal of choice and bodily autonomy for any reason. We should encourage vaccination, emphatically, and always, the facts and figures back that up 100%. We should never be tempted to force it because it is a medical procedure, and sets a precedent for other government-mandated medical procedures. Given the state of the world / various governments right now, I have no idea why that prospect wouldn't horrify anyone.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes and also those who have had the MMR but have not developed immunity (which is also a larger proportion than is reported).

But that doesn't really matter because, like I said, I'm against removal of choice and bodily autonomy for any reason. We should encourage vaccination, emphatically, and always, the facts and figures back that up 100%. We should never be tempted to force it because it is a medical procedure, and sets a precedent for other government-mandated medical procedures. Given the state of the world / various governments right now, I have no idea why that prospect wouldn't horrify anyone.

Yes, was going to say this in my post but didn't know how to phrase it..very very slippery slope..

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes and the balance of probabilities is clear that vaccination is the right choice. Choice being the operative word. Enforcing it is a very, very slippery slope.

Just like if you need an operation, getting it is the right choice. I'd be pretty ****ing worried if doctors could just knock you out and put you under the knife without consent. Like I said, no one is ever going to convince me that taking away the right to bodily autonomy is a good idea, for any reason.

The state dictate many things for the public good.
Would you say highway code should be a choice?
Attending diabetic appointments a choice?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

The state dictate many things for the public good.
Would you say highway code should be a choice?
Attending diabetic appointments a choice?

Trying to compare a medical procedure to road safety is nonsense, and attending an appointment for diabetes is a choice.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Trying to compare a medical procedure to road safety is nonsense, and attending an appointment for diabetes is a choice.

I think you're making it into a big big brother like scenario.

It is just vaccines

Not buying this thin end of the wedge stuff

[user104658]

Really it's just all yet another great example of the extremism/tribalism we see absolutely everywhere these days.

The anti-vaxxer position is that the risk of vaccines is HUGE and thus, the risks associated with not vaccinating are worth taking.

The militant pro-vaxxer retort position is that the risks from vaccine preventable illness are HUGE or even semi-tongue-in-cheek(?) CERTAIN DEATH!!!... and that the risk with vaccination is ZERO.


ALL nonsense.

The truth is that the personal risk from the common illnesses we vaccinate against - even if you catch one - is very, very small. While the risk from vaccination exists but is statistically miniscule. Thus, vaccination is the rational, sensible choice.

I wish we'd spend more time explaining that, and less screeching about imagined threats and over the top fears.

[Denver]

Vaccination should be mandatory

[AnnieK]

I'm with TS on this....the thought that the government are dictating is a worry to me. My son is vaccinated, I wasn't until I was much older as my brother had convulsions after his immunisations and they refused to do me.

I know a lot.of people who opted for the private separate jabs but the thought didn't enter my head with my boy, I felt the benefits far out weighed the risks.

Education has to be the key with this and the anti vax rhetoric has to be shown for the rubbish it is

[Tom4784]

I hope it goes through, pro-disease people and their offspring should not be allowed around places in which their lack of immunity is a danger to others.

The whole movement is based on nothing but stupidity and narcissism.

[Ramsay]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I hope it goes through, pro-disease people and their offspring should not be allowed around places in which their lack of immunity is a danger to others.

The whole movement is based on nothing but stupidity and narcissism.

[Kizzy]

Mine were vaccinated however I've never understood why they lump them together, fighting off a virus is hard for a little body..but 3 together?

When mine were at school there were worries about MMR causing autism, that has been discredited however makes you wonder how or why it was linked initially :/

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I hope it goes through, pro-disease people and their offspring should not be allowed around places in which their lack of immunity is a danger to others.

The whole movement is based on nothing but stupidity and narcissism.

Nonsense "Reddit-rhetoric" like this is only going to compound that subset of people's beliefs and make them close ranks and gain following, ultimately reducing overall vaccination rates. You don't convince people with threats and insults.

If your actual goal is increasing vaccination rates - and not just venting frustration - then you're being part of the problem, not the solution.

Accurate, honest, respectful education will increase vaccination rates. Force and mocking will not. People have been trying this "angry dad" / "shame the parents" routine with it for years if not decades. Rates are still falling. It doesn't work. Grow up.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Nonsense "Reddit-rhetoric" like this is only going to compound that subset of people's beliefs and make them close ranks and gain following, ultimately reducing overall vaccination rates. You don't convince people with threats and insults.

If your actual goal is increasing vaccination rates - and not just venting frustration - then you're being part of the problem, not the solution.

Accurate, honest, respectful education will increase vaccination rates. Force and mocking will not. People have been trying this "angry dad" / "shame the parents" routine with it for years if not decades. Rates are still falling. It doesn't work. Grow up.

I have sympathy with the body autonomy argument, but this point, whilst it makes sense to you or I, doesn't translate in the real world. We have an increasing number of people who trust their gut or a celebrity saying their child looked at a dr for 1 minute and now has autism.

I don't really look at it as either a threat or an insult, but merely a requirement to enter public education. We've seen diseases on the verge of being wiped off the planet, suddenly enjoying a resurgence because of parents that won't vaccinate.

It's also not a specific section of the population; we have religious parents refusing it for religious reasons, we have crystal waving hippie lefties that aren't vaccinating, and we have Jenny McCarthy believing parents. It's too widespread, and it unnecessarily endangers the lives of children that can't vaccinate.