[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I hope it goes through, pro-disease people and their offspring should not be allowed around places in which their lack of immunity is a danger to others.

The whole movement is based on nothing but stupidity and narcissism.

Nonsense "Reddit-rhetoric" like this is only going to compound that subset of people's beliefs and make them close ranks and gain following, ultimately reducing overall vaccination rates. You don't convince people with threats and insults.

If your actual goal is increasing vaccination rates - and not just venting frustration - then you're being part of the problem, not the solution.

Accurate, honest, respectful education will increase vaccination rates. Force and mocking will not. People have been trying this "angry dad" / "shame the parents" routine with it for years if not decades. Rates are still falling. It doesn't work. Grow up.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Nonsense "Reddit-rhetoric" like this is only going to compound that subset of people's beliefs and make them close ranks and gain following, ultimately reducing overall vaccination rates. You don't convince people with threats and insults.

If your actual goal is increasing vaccination rates - and not just venting frustration - then you're being part of the problem, not the solution.

Accurate, honest, respectful education will increase vaccination rates. Force and mocking will not. People have been trying this "angry dad" / "shame the parents" routine with it for years if not decades. Rates are still falling. It doesn't work. Grow up.

I have sympathy with the body autonomy argument, but this point, whilst it makes sense to you or I, doesn't translate in the real world. We have an increasing number of people who trust their gut or a celebrity saying their child looked at a dr for 1 minute and now has autism.

I don't really look at it as either a threat or an insult, but merely a requirement to enter public education. We've seen diseases on the verge of being wiped off the planet, suddenly enjoying a resurgence because of parents that won't vaccinate.

It's also not a specific section of the population; we have religious parents refusing it for religious reasons, we have crystal waving hippie lefties that aren't vaccinating, and we have Jenny McCarthy believing parents. It's too widespread, and it unnecessarily endangers the lives of children that can't vaccinate.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I have sympathy with the body autonomy argument, but this point, whilst it makes sense to you or I, doesn't translate in the real world. We have an increasing number of people who trust their gut or a celebrity saying their child looked at a dr for 1 minute and now has autism.

I don't really look at it as either a threat or an insult, but merely a requirement to enter public education. We've seen diseases on the verge of being wiped off the planet, suddenly enjoying a resurgence because of parents that won't vaccinate.

It's also not a specific section of the population; we have religious parents refusing it for religious reasons, we have crystal waving hippie lefties that aren't vaccinating, and we have Jenny McCarthy believing parents. It's too widespread, and it unnecessarily endangers the lives of children that can't vaccinate.

Right but attempting to increase vaccination rates through shaming (calling people stupid / trying to tell them that their kids will die) or force (the threat of banning children from public spaces) simply won't work on any of those groups. It'll compound the problem by pushing those already inclined to retreat into sub-communities completely removed from the entire conversation and in 2 or 3 generations you'll have even lower vax rates. Honestly I understand the temptation to try to use force, I just know it won't work, and while you can ban unvaccinated kids from schools, you can't ban them from parks, or soft play areas, or any other public space, so it doesn't really matter.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right but attempting to increase vaccination rates through shaming (calling people stupid / trying to tell them that their kids will die) or force (the threat of banning children from public spaces) simply won't work on any of those groups. It'll compound the problem by pushing those already inclined to retreat into sub-communities completely removed from the entire conversation and in 2 or 3 generations you'll have even lower vax rates. Honestly I understand the temptation to try to use force, I just know it won't work, and while you can ban unvaccinated kids from schools, you can't ban them from parks, or soft play areas, or any other public space, so it doesn't really matter.

I'm not calling anyone stupid or threatening them, I just advocate having vaccination as an entry requirement if you want your child to attend school. We can't eradicate all risk from every life and never will, but I disagree with because we can't ban them from everywhere then it's pointless trying to protect them when we can.

Anti-vax movements are increasing in popularity already, and the problem with conspiracy theorists, is evidence and facts are used to prove to them that it's just more of a conspiracy, rather than an attempt to help them help their children.

Maybe requiring those children to be vaccinated will help them see in a generation or two, that actually they're not giving our children autism afterall, whereas allowing this issue to go on unaddressed is currently having the opposite effect.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I'm not calling anyone stupid or threatening them, I just advocate having vaccination as an entry requirement if you want your child to attend school.

I know you haven't, I was mainly referring to comments like this

Originally Posted by Dezzy

pro-disease people and their offspring should not be allowed around places in which their lack of immunity is a danger to others.

The whole movement is based on nothing but stupidity and narcissism.

With super-edgy reddit buzz terms like "pro-disease" (often "pro-death") that are sadly not uncommon in this "debate", and entirely unhelpful if not counterproductive.

We can't eradicate all risk from every life and never will, but I disagree with because we can't ban them from everywhere then it's pointless trying to protect them when we can.

Anti-vax movements are increasing in popularity already, and the problem with conspiracy theorists, is evidence and facts are used to prove to them that it's just more of a conspiracy, rather than an attempt to help them help their children.

Maybe requiring those children to be vaccinated will help them see in a generation or two, that actually they're not giving our children autism afterall, whereas allowing this issue to go on unaddressed is currently having the opposite effect.

The problem with not using the facts though is that THAT feeds the idea that it's all conspiracy. Encephalitis occurs as a vaccine side effect. Brain injury occurs in many (not most, but many) cases of encaphalitis. Permanent brain injury *can and does happen as a result of vaccination* and that can be confirmed with very little searching. So if you have a tonne of people shouting that something doesn't happen, when it is a medical fact that it DOES happen, the argument breaks down completely.

For it to be a valid debate and get anywhere the starting point has to be getting those who know that there are risks, to understand that not vaccinating carries far higher risks.

I just can't comprehend why anyone thinks this is going to be addressed with lies and force, or why anyone would want it to be, given the potential for precedent.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I know you haven't, I was mainly referring to comments like this



With super-edgy reddit buzz terms like "pro-disease" (often "pro-death") that are sadly not uncommon in this "debate", and entirely unhelpful if not counterproductive.



The problem with not using the facts though is that THAT feeds the idea that it's all conspiracy. Encephalitis occurs as a vaccine side effect. Brain injury occurs in many (not most, but many) cases of encaphalitis. Permanent brain injury *can and does happen as a result of vaccination* and that can be confirmed with very little searching. So if you have a tonne of people shouting that something doesn't happen, when it is a medical fact that it DOES happen, the argument breaks down completely.

For it to be a valid debate and get anywhere the starting point has to be getting those who know that there are risks, to understand that not vaccinating carries far higher risks.

I just can't comprehend why anyone thinks this is going to be addressed with lies and force, or why anyone would want it to be, given the potential for precedent.

That encephalitis point is a really good point that I was unaware of, but is that the main driver of the anti-vax movement (genuine question, as I don't know)? Because the main stuff I've heard about are the actual conspiracy theories. Maybe that's a case of the craziest voices making the most noise?

Is there real world data out there for those that don't want to vaccinate their children for genuine medical reasons vs those that believe the gubmint just want to inject satan's urine into your arm, then that would probably help us identify the most successful approach.

There are probably a lot of people that float across the middle of those 2 positions, that have heard bad things about it, but don't really bother with the details, so I think the regulatory vaccinations in conjunction with education as opposed to either or, would probably be the most effective strategy.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Nonsense "Reddit-rhetoric" like this is only going to compound that subset of people's beliefs and make them close ranks and gain following, ultimately reducing overall vaccination rates. You don't convince people with threats and insults.

If your actual goal is increasing vaccination rates - and not just venting frustration - then you're being part of the problem, not the solution.

Accurate, honest, respectful education will increase vaccination rates. Force and mocking will not. People have been trying this "angry dad" / "shame the parents" routine with it for years if not decades. Rates are still falling. It doesn't work. Grow up.

More fool you for trying to reason with stupidity, anti-vaxxers are narcissists that think they can overpower science with essential oils and healing crystals. They do not listen to reason or common sense because they possess neither and their actions are bringing back diseases and illnesses we had all but gotten rid of. Talking to them is like trying to convince a gun nut to see the issue with AR-15s being sold in US supermarkets, they will never listen and I won't waste my time on morons telling them any different. Their actions endanger vulnerable people and all you are doing is empowering them by offering their insane viewpoints an out.

Do not patronise me and tell me to grow up when you're going to be pulling splinters out of your arse for sitting on the fence for a pretty black or white issue. Science vs Stupidity, that is what this boils down to and your tin foil what ifs do nothing but create more reasons for those idiots to stick their heads in the sand.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

More fool you for trying to reason with stupidity, anti-vaxxers are narcissists that think they can overpower science with essential oils and healing crystals. They do not listen to reason or common sense because they possess neither and their actions are bringing back diseases and illnesses we had all but gotten rid of. Talking to them is like trying to convince a gun nut to see the issue with AR-15s being sold in US supermarkets, they will never listen and I won't waste my time on morons telling them any different. Their actions endanger vulnerable people and all you are doing is empowering them by offering their insane viewpoints an out.

Do not patronise me and tell me to grow up when you're going to be pulling splinters out of your arse for sitting on the fence for a pretty black or white issue. Science vs Stupidity, that is what this boils down to and your tin foil what ifs do nothing but create more reasons for those idiots to stick their heads in the sand.

I completely agree, anti-vaccers thing they know more than people who are constantly saving lives. Vaccination should not be a choice, it should be mandatory.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

More fool you for trying to reason with stupidity, anti-vaxxers are narcissists that think they can overpower science with essential oils and healing crystals. They do not listen to reason or common sense because they possess neither and their actions are bringing back diseases and illnesses we had all but gotten rid of. Talking to them is like trying to convince a gun nut to see the issue with AR-15s being sold in US supermarkets, they will never listen and I won't waste my time on morons telling them any different. Their actions endanger vulnerable people and all you are doing is empowering them by offering their insane viewpoints an out.

Do not patronise me and tell me to grow up when you're going to be pulling splinters out of your arse for sitting on the fence for a pretty black or white issue. Science vs Stupidity, that is what this boils down to and your tin foil what ifs do nothing but create more reasons for those idiots to stick their heads in the sand.

It's not a black and white issue when what you're touting as "white" is the frankly utterly insane notion of allowing government-enforced medical procedures. I can only imagine the backflips you must be doing in your mind to advocate for this, based on being frustrated by anti-vaxxers. "Some people make dumb decisions so ... time to cancel the right to bodily autonomy I guess!"

You're also drawing completely false comparisons with things like gun laws. The idea that you can convince anti-vaxxers to vaccinate by screeching at them that being anti-vax is being "pro death" is more akin to the idea that you could convince someone to give up their handgun by repeatedly bellowing that it's secretly a nuclear bomb.

Debate using the facts or don't debate at all. Don't insist on your right to abandon them to boring internet-parrot-rhetoric because it's an issue that you find frustrating.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not a black and white issue when what you're touting as "white" is the frankly utterly insane notion of allowing government-enforced medical procedures. I can only imagine the backflips you must be doing in your mind to advocate for this, based on being frustrated by anti-vaxxers. "Some people make dumb decisions so ... time to cancel the right to bodily autonomy I guess!"

You're also drawing completely false comparisons with things like gun laws. The idea that you can convince anti-vaxxers to vaccinate by screeching at them that being anti-vax is being "pro death" is more akin to the idea that you could convince someone to give up their handgun by repeatedly bellowing that it's secretly a nuclear bomb.

Debate using the facts or don't debate at all. Don't insist on your right to abandon them to boring internet-parrot-rhetoric because it's an issue that you find frustrating.

Be less of a hypocrite, TS. You've been preaching about how we need to handle anti-vaxxers with kid gloves and be respectful to them but you've been screeching at me telling me to grow up because my views upset you. Come speak to me when you've sorted out your hypocrisy because you can't be all 'we need to reason and treat anti-vaxxers with kindness!' in one breath and then be patronising as **** to someone you disagree with. That **** won't fly with me and that hypocrisy will completely upend everything you're saying here.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Be less of a hypocrite, TS. You've been preaching about how we need to handle anti-vaxxers with kid gloves and be respectful to them but you've been screeching at me telling me to grow up because my views upset you. Come speak to me when you've sorted out your hypocrisy because you can't be all 'we need to reason and treat anti-vaxxers with kindness!' in one breath and then be patronising as **** to someone you disagree with. That **** won't fly with me and that hypocrisy will completely upend everything you're saying here.

I'm talking about the best way to handle them in order to convince them to vaccinate and address a large issue, I'm not saying treat them with kid gloves out of concern for their feelings . Honestly when it comes right down to it I don't care all THAT much about how you speak to them, so long as no one starts sticking needles in anyone with dubious levels of consent. (Remember: consent under duress is NOT consent.)


All of this aside... I've not even started on one of my main gripes with "vax-hyperbole" rhetoric. The constantly touted (and completely incorrect) assertion that infant and child mortality rates have dramatically dropped over the last century thanks to vaccination.

This is false. Vaccination has improved rates slightly, but it is MINISCULE in comparison to the ACTUAL reason for the vast reduction in infant mortality. Which is undeniably, 100%, the discovery of penicillin and further development of anti-biotics.

Why is this important? Because anti-biotics are at risk. Ironically, they're MOST at risk from exactly the same people who are furious at other parents for not vaccinating; the parents who rush their kids for AB's at the slightest cough. And the doctors who over-prescribe them. The effects of AB resistance have the potential to be utterly catastrophic, orders of magnitude above what would happen if EVERYONE stopped vaccinating tomorrow.

But how do you even begin to convince the public of the FACT that anti-biotics are the real reason - almost entirely - for reduced child death, and that we must preserve working anti-biotics and reduce AB resistance progression at all costs - when there's a horde of other people insisting that reduced child mortality is all thanks to vaccination? It's very difficult. Very, very difficult. The idea that vaccines have "saved the children" is firmly rooted in the public mindset.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm talking about the best way to handle them in order to convince them to vaccinate and address a large issue, I'm not saying treat them with kid gloves out of concern for their feelings . Honestly when it comes right down to it I don't care all THAT much about how you speak to them, so long as no one starts sticking needles in anyone with dubious levels of consent. (Remember: consent under duress is NOT consent.)


All of this aside... I've not even started on one of my main gripes with "vax-hyperbole" rhetoric. The constantly touted (and completely incorrect) assertion that infant and child mortality rates have dramatically dropped over the last century thanks to vaccination.

This is false. Vaccination has improved rates slightly, but it is MINISCULE in comparison to the ACTUAL reason for the vast reduction in infant mortality. Which is undeniably, 100%, the discovery of penicillin and further development of anti-biotics.

Why is this important? Because anti-biotics are at risk. Ironically, they're MOST at risk from exactly the same people who are furious at other parents for not vaccinating; the parents who rush their kids for AB's at the slightest cough. And the doctors who over-prescribe them. The effects of AB resistance have the potential to be utterly catastrophic, orders of magnitude above what would happen if EVERYONE stopped vaccinating tomorrow.

But how do you even begin to convince the public of the FACT that anti-biotics are the real reason - almost entirely - for reduced child death, and that we must preserve working anti-biotics and reduce AB resistance progression at all costs - when there's a horde of other people insisting that reduced child mortality is all thanks to vaccination? It's very difficult. Very, very difficult. The idea that vaccines have "saved the children" is firmly rooted in the public mindset.

More attempts at validating the anti-vaxx movement while not dealing with the utter hypocrisy how you approach the different sides. You're just being the Abby Huntsman of anti-vaxx.

At the end of the day we are seeing a rise of infection rates of illnesses that were almost non-existent before, that's purely because of the anti-vaxx movement and their stupidity is putting people who genuinely have valid reasons to not be vaccinated at risk. You can jump through as many hoops as you like but thousands of kids get immunised every day without incident and everything that anti-vaxxers preach is basically bull**** regurgitated from a conman doctor that was struck off the register.

Even if this bill goes through, it's not gonna force parents to immunise their children, it just means that if their insane beliefs are more important to them then the well being of their child, they'll have to homeschool them instead.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

More attempts at validating the anti-vaxx movement while not dealing with the utter hypocrisy how you approach the different sides. You're just being the Abby Huntsman of anti-vaxx.

If pretending that I'm an anti-vax shill helps you to get your head around advocating distasteful levels of government authoritarianism, then by all means continue. I'm not and have presented numerous rguments for vaccination throughout this thread. Just... you know... real ones, instead of imaginary ones.

At the end of the day we are seeing a rise of infection rates of illnesses that were almost non-existent before, that's purely because of the anti-vaxx movement and their stupidity is putting people who genuinely have valid reasons to not be vaccinated at risk. You can jump through as many hoops as you like but thousands of kids get immunised every day without incident and everything that anti-vaxxers preach is basically bull**** regurgitated from a conman doctor that was struck off the register.

I don't disagree with any of that (unless you're trying to claim that vaccine injury rate is zero?), it's just not enough to convince me that the best way to address it is through lies and misquoted statistics, or that it justifies the tacit removal of bodily autonomy by government. Never, ever will.

Even if this bill goes through, it's not gonna force parents to immunise their children, it just means that if their insane beliefs are more important to them then the well being of their child, they'll have to homeschool them instead.

Consent under duress is not consent. This is a concept that already applies to medical procedure consent. This stuff is far more vital to a well-functioning world than vaccination rates. Maybe you don't agree, and that's fine too.