[Redway]

Or do you think it can be disproportionate, e.g. someone with a severe disability who may well do little more than exist vs a doctor who saves plenty of lives?

[Kyle]

I like to consider everyone equal but in a society it just doesn't work. Somebody has to run the country and are thus are going to be more 'important' than the lay man.

[Niamh.]

Obviously a Doctor is going to be more beneficial to society than someone who's dependent on others ( a doctor would trump most non disabled people in "normal" jobs though) but that doesn't mean that the Doctor is better than that person or more deserving of anything

[Kizzy]

The actions of some may bring more social or economic benefit than others, however when you question that as a quintessential truth it becomes rather an unsavoury concept.

[lostalex]

no. some people are better than others.

some people are abusive assholes.

and i mean real abusive assholes, not just people who are annoying, i mean seriously abusive assholes who are evil and who hurt other people for fun.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by lostalex

no. some people are better than others.

some people are abusive assholes.

and i mean real abusive assholes, not just people who are annoying, i mean seriously abusive assholes who are evil and who hurt other people for fun.

100% this^

[Ammi]

..I would like to say, yes everyone is equal..but no, I can't equate the 'value' of someone like a killer/paedophile etc with that of someone who doesn't commit actions to harm other people, let alone someone who strives to help people in any way...

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

no. some people are better than others.

some people are abusive assholes.

and i mean real abusive assholes, not just people who are annoying, i mean seriously abusive assholes who are evil and who hurt other people for fun.

I agree with this.

[Z]

I think your value as a person stems from what you give back to the world. That could be through charity, work, kindness, love, respect... call that +1... some people aren't physically capable of doing anything, call that 0... some people give back negativity, that's -1... so no, I don't think people are equally valuable, not inherently. Most people have the choice to do good with their lives and for whatever combination of reasons, they choose a path in life that either helps others for the most part or hurts others for the most part...

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Zee

I think your value as a person stems from what you give back to the world. That could be through charity, work, kindness, love, respect... call that +1... some people aren't physically capable of doing anything, call that 0... some people give back negativity, that's -1... so no, I don't think people are equally valuable, not inherently. Most people have the choice to do good with their lives and for whatever combination of reasons, they choose a path in life that either helps others for the most part or hurts others for the most part...

It's a bit harsh though to penalise people who can't do anything for physical disability's. It's like a double whammy. I'm sorry Jimmy your going to be in a wheelchair for life, oh and btw your not really valuable to us anymore so y'know you can mull that over whilst you sit at home doing nothing.

[Verbal]

Imagine a world where disabled people are actually Doctors...just incase you don't get my sarcasm, there are disabled Doctors in the world....

One of the greatest minds in history is severely disabled and has to rely on other people for absolutely every aspect of his care. Edit: Professor Stephen Hawkings.

The average person with a disability does far far more than a regular everyday person who is perfectly healthy. I could list you scores of healthy people who are nothing more than a drain on society. I can't name you one disabled person who is.

Please, don't single disabled people out as being the weaker, disposable aspect of society. Because its simply not true.

[x-evenstar-x]

Originally Posted by Verbal

Imagine a world where disabled people are actually Doctors...just incase you don't get my sarcasm, there are disabled Doctors in the world....

One of the greatest minds in history is severely disabled and has to rely on other people for absolutely every aspect of his care. Edit: Professor Stephen Hawkings.

The average person with a disability does far far more than a regular everyday person who is perfectly healthy. I could list you scores of healthy people who are nothing more than a drain on society. I can't name you one disabled person who is.

Please, don't single disabled people out as being the weaker, disposable aspect of society. Because its simply not true.

Well said verbal, I couldn't agree more!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Verbal

Imagine a world where disabled people are actually Doctors...just incase you don't get my sarcasm, there are disabled Doctors in the world....

One of the greatest minds in history is severely disabled and has to rely on other people for absolutely every aspect of his care. Edit: Professor Stephen Hawkings.

The average person with a disability does far far more than a regular everyday person who is perfectly healthy. I could list you scores of healthy people who are nothing more than a drain on society. I can't name you one disabled person who is.

Please, don't single disabled people out as being the weaker, disposable aspect of society. Because its simply not true.

To be fair to the OP the example he gave was "someone with a severe disability who may well do little more than exist" he didn't just say disabled people in general

[Verbal]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

To be fair to the OP the example he gave was "someone with a severe disability who may well do little more than exist" he didn't just say disabled people in general

Using disabled people in such an argument as this, smacks of ignorance, prejudice and the kind of thing a Daily Mail reading Tory would say, they are an easy target. They have no place being named in this discussion. Before my post 3 different posts singled them out.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

To be fair to the OP the example he gave was "someone with a severe disability who may well do little more than exist" he didn't just say disabled people in general

Why do we have to be fair to the OP?..
He suggested that there should be a definition between able bodied and disabled people...
Where is this demarcation between the two, when do you decide someone is not as economically viable?
A little more information would help as this is a little too black and white at the minute.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Verbal

Imagine a world where disabled people are actually Doctors...just incase you don't get my sarcasm, there are disabled Doctors in the world....

One of the greatest minds in history is severely disabled and has to rely on other people for absolutely every aspect of his care. Edit: Professor Stephen Hawkings.

The average person with a disability does far far more than a regular everyday person who is perfectly healthy. I could list you scores of healthy people who are nothing more than a drain on society. I can't name you one disabled person who is.

Please, don't single disabled people out as being the weaker, disposable aspect of society. Because its simply not true.

Hence I said 'severely' and I was just using it as an example, hence the 'e.g.', for God's sake.

There are many different forms of disability, such as mental (along with physical). I absolutely was not simply referring to someone in a wheelchair but other forms of disability that do restrict general ability.

Nor is everything I say supposed to be taken literally. I'd expect you to be able to place it into context.

Lord almighty.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Verbal

Imagine a world where disabled people are actually Doctors...just incase you don't get my sarcasm, there are disabled Doctors in the world....

One of the greatest minds in history is severely disabled and has to rely on other people for absolutely every aspect of his care. Edit: Professor Stephen Hawkings.

The average person with a disability does far far more than a regular everyday person who is perfectly healthy. I could list you scores of healthy people who are nothing more than a drain on society. I can't name you one disabled person who is.

Please, don't single disabled people out as being the weaker, disposable aspect of society. Because its simply not true.

quality post. people who continue their lives and strive to live a good life with all sorts of disabilities or in some cases with diseases are an absolute inspiration. beyond that a disability can also strengthen a person in other ways, whether that be in terms of the ways they think or problem solve or their strength of spirit and determination or the optimism too....Ive worked with people with all sorts of disability and found I infinitely more enjoyable, fun and rewarding than working with so called able bodied people. life is strange

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Zee

I think your value as a person stems from what you give back to the world. That could be through charity, work, kindness, love, respect... call that +1... some people aren't physically capable of doing anything, call that 0... some people give back negativity, that's -1... so no, I don't think people are equally valuable, not inherently. Most people have the choice to do good with their lives and for whatever combination of reasons, they choose a path in life that either helps others for the most part or hurts others for the most part...

what about people who do work for charity but do all they can to avoid paying tax like the Bonos , jimmy carrs and phill Collins of this world and many more....al capone used charity as a morality car wash to try and make himself look good in public. behind closed doors he was of course a mass murderer
I am very weary of those who use charity to try and show off an image
take beckham he pays miniscule percent of taxes on his 100s of millions, yet when he donated part fo his wages from his paris football wages he was hailed a saint. truth is it was a tax write off

[Z]

Originally Posted by the truth

what about people who do work for charity but do all they can to avoid paying tax like the Bonos , jimmy carrs and phill Collins of this world and many more....al capone used charity as a morality car wash to try and make himself look good in public. behind closed doors he was of course a mass murderer
I am very weary of those who use charity to try and show off an image
take beckham he pays miniscule percent of taxes on his 100s of millions, yet when he donated part fo his wages from his paris football wages he was hailed a saint. truth is it was a tax write off

Perhaps his motives aren't exclusively borne out of a desire to give to charity, I don't know, but he's still doing some good in the world, you know? I mean it's not like I think people can be ranked on a scale, I just used that as an example of how people can be perceived through their actions; but I think if you are incapable of giving anything back to the world because the world has dealt you a bad hand, then by default you aren't contributing anything but neither are you damaging anything. You're out of the system, essentially. People are complex and most people are neither wholly good nor wholly bad; some fall onto the extremes of either side of the coin but most people are on a spectrum and I think if you make yourself valuable by doing your best in life to be a good person, that's all that can be asked of you.

[Kizzy]

Yep, and it's a generalisation that we all have the potential to be these wonderful exemplary and beneficial members of society. Some just don't possess the skills, a points system is a simplistic and clinical measure of how 'worthwhile' we are.

[Kizzy]

Great post verbal thankyou, I find the 'second class citizen' ideology abhorrent too.

[Kizzy]

Verbal has a very valid point, I life is a life, and scales like this should not exist.
It is a quite unfair hypothetical imo, mothers and families of those who are severely disabled i'm sure would be upset at the view their loved one was seen as less than another due to their condition.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Verbal has a very valid point, I life is a life, and scales like this should not exist.
It is a quite unfair hypothetical imo, mothers and families of those who are severely disabled i'm sure would be upset at the view their loved one was seen as less than another due to their condition.

really? you don't think scales should exist?

so you think that someone who abuses disabled people is just as valuable a life as someone who helps and cares for disabled people?

sorry but i disagree, i think the kind person is a more valuable life.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by lostalex

really? you don't think scales should exist?

so you think that someone who abuses disabled people is just as valuable a life as someone who helps and cares for disabled people?

sorry but i disagree, i think the kind person is a more valuable life.

You just completely misinterpretated what I said.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

really? you don't think scales should exist?

so you think that someone who abuses disabled people is just as valuable a life as someone who helps and cares for disabled people?

sorry but i disagree, i think the kind person is a more valuable life.

Yeah, I agree with that 100%