[user104658]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Very interesting point Alex, when do you think we become "self aware" 3yrs old , 4...or 5 or even older ?

Should toddlers be fair game for abortion or termination by that logic if the parents "change" their minds about wanting to bring them up ??

Well exactly - I'm not really sure why this would even matter. Unless we're going to start supporting the murder of unwanted babies now, too. In fact theres a pretty good case to be made for some ADULTS not being self aware.

...although, it does remind me of a South Park episode when Cartmans mum takes him (aged 7) to the abortion clinic and asks for an abortion. Heh.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Very interesting point Alex, when do you think we become "self aware" 3yrs old , 4...or 5 or even older ?

Should toddlers be fair game for abortion or termination by that logic if the parents "change" their minds about wanting to bring them up ??

i think everyone should be sterilized. imho.

solve the problem once and for all.

[lostalex]

Where's cloning? we should reproduce by cloning already, do we have the technology to do that yet?

I don't want to have to have a HALF child, i want an exact replica of myself. This is the year 2014, were's cloning???

seriously though, why aren't we cloning yet? we had a cloned sheep in the 90's, then we haven't heard anything about it since.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Does anyone here remember anything about being a baby? Babies have no intelligence. They are not people. Stop talking about them as if they are people. They aren't even self aware. Most animals have more intelligence than a baby. A fetus/baby doesn't know the difference between being alive or dead.

I know some adults like that.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Does anyone here remember anything about being a baby? Babies have no intelligence. They are not people. Stop talking about them as if they are people. They aren't even self aware. Most animals have more intelligence than a baby. A fetus/baby doesn't know the difference between being alive or dead.

I dont know where to start with this post...

Most people dont remember anything from before being 2/3...should it be ok to just kill your child because of this?

People arent self aware when pissed..so is it ok to murder them aslong as they are bladdered at the time?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I dont know where to start with this post...

Most people dont remember anything from before being 2/3...should it be ok to just kill your child because of this?

People arent self aware when pissed..so is it ok to murder them aslong as they are bladdered at the time?

Of course

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I dont know where to start with this post...

Most people dont remember anything from before being 2/3...should it be ok to just kill your child because of this?

People arent self aware when pissed..so is it ok to murder them aslong as they are bladdered at the time?

i'm just saying, if i die when i'm so pissed that i don't know if i'm alive or dead, then yea, that sounds like a good way to die. Cause I won't be around to put any more thought into it. i won't even know any better, like a baby. i hope that's how i die.

I don't think y'all understand the concept of oblivion.

It's not cruel to take life away from something that's not even really living. If it doesn't even know that it's alive, then how can you take life away from it?

[Z]

Originally Posted by lostalex

i'm just saying, if i die when i'm so pissed that i don't know if i'm alive or dead, then yea, that sounds like a good way to die. Cause I won't be around to put any more thought into it. i won't even know any better, like a baby. i hope that's how i die.

I don't think y'all understand the concept of oblivion.

It's not cruel to take life away from something that's not even really living. If it doesn't even know that it's alive, then how can you take life away from it?

Good point - when someone's on life support, it's more or less a futile effort to keep their body working in the unlikely event that their brain wakes up at some indeterminate point down the line... if you turn it off, are they even going to be aware that they're dying?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Zee

Good point - when someone's on life support, it's more or less a futile effort to keep their body working in the unlikely event that their brain wakes up at some indeterminate point down the line... if you turn it off, are they even going to be aware that they're dying?

you get it.

The vast majority of the universe is not self aware.

[Kizzy]

Am I living in an alternate universe?.. So the theory is if you can't fend for yourself you should just die?
The very old, the very young, the physically and or mentally incapable?.. where does it end? I guess with the extinction of the species.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well exactly - I'm not really sure why this would even matter. Unless we're going to start supporting the murder of unwanted babies now, too. In fact theres a pretty good case to be made for some ADULTS not being self aware.

...although, it does remind me of a South Park episode when Cartmans mum takes him (aged 7) to the abortion clinic and asks for an abortion. Heh.

God I love that program. Or the one where he's on a talk show telling everyone "my mom ****ed me right there in the Best Buy" (because she wouldn't buy him an iPad) and everyone's booing her

[Livia]

I know this is going to be controversial, but as it's women who get pregnant, who carry the child, give birth and in many cases care for that child alone, the decision should be left to the woman. Men can have a say, but the final word must be the woman's. There are so many unwanted and unloved children in this world, maybe people's efforts would be better spent in improving the lot of those children instead of blackmailing women into having a child they do not want.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Am I living in an alternate universe?.. So the theory is if you can't fend for yourself you should just die?
The very old, the very young, the physically and or mentally incapable?.. where does it end? I guess with the extinction of the species.

The only certainty in life is death. Everyone dies at some point. There are all sorts of moral and ethical debates about the right to life, so many that it's impossible to ever be 'right' or 'wrong' in my opinion. If someone's in a coma for years (e.g. Ariel Sharon) - are they really alive anymore?

[Z]

Originally Posted by Livia

I know this is going to be controversial, but as it's women who get pregnant, who carry the child, give birth and in many cases care for that child alone, the decision should be left to the woman. Men can have a say, but the final word must be the woman's. There are so many unwanted and unloved children in this world, maybe people's efforts would be better spent in improving the lot of those children instead of blackmailing women into having a child they do not want.

No I completely agree with you. In the case of a couple in a relationship and the woman falling pregnant, I can see why it would be a joint decision - but it's the woman who has to go through with the pregnancy, it should always be her right to determine whether or not she carries that baby to term and raises it.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Livia

I know this is going to be controversial, but as it's women who get pregnant, who carry the child, give birth and in many cases care for that child alone, the decision should be left to the woman. Men can have a say, but the final word must be the woman's. There are so many unwanted and unloved children in this world, maybe people's efforts would be better spent in improving the lot of those children instead of blackmailing women into having a child they do not want.

I don't think that's controversial at all. Most civilized countries agree.

\as a man, the less i have to hear about it the better.

I've got no problem with that at all. Your body, Your decision.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Livia

I know this is going to be controversial, but as it's women who get pregnant, who carry the child, give birth and in many cases care for that child alone, the decision should be left to the woman. Men can have a say, but the final word must be the woman's. There are so many unwanted and unloved children in this world, maybe people's efforts would be better spent in improving the lot of those children instead of blackmailing women into having a child they do not want.

No blackmailing but making it easier to have a child they may be concerned about supporting. clearly many women and men feel there is NOt a support structure or enough advice nor enough time given to would be parents who are struggling with the expected birth of a child. often financial pressures are the main concern. these can be aleviated over time but a dead baby can never come back. better to help save lives than save short term financial issues.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Zee

The only certainty in life is death. Everyone dies at some point. There are all sorts of moral and ethical debates about the right to life, so many that it's impossible to ever be 'right' or 'wrong' in my opinion. If someone's in a coma for years (e.g. Ariel Sharon) - are they really alive anymore?

Yes but the debate here is whether it's right to kill someone before they've had a chance to live?
Of course everyone dies at some point.. you're just stating the obvious there.
People come out of comas.. the brain repairs as it's shut down that's what a coma is.
So yes, they are alive and in a state of stasis whilst the reconstruction of neural pathways occurs. There's always a chance that the body may be too aged or weak to be supported during this time and die anyway.

[Livia]

How about giving kids in care, kids in orphanages in desperately poor parts of the world, kids working at the age of five or six... kids who are written off as soon as they're born because they're not wanted by anyone. How about worrying about them instead of insisting women be encouraged to bring another unwanted, unloved child into the world because society thinks she should.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Where's cloning? we should reproduce by cloning already, do we have the technology to do that yet?

I don't want to have to have a HALF child, i want an exact replica of myself. This is the year 2014, were's cloning???

seriously though, why aren't we cloning yet? we had a cloned sheep in the 90's, then we haven't heard anything about it since.

Because everyone would end up related and inbred. This post has to be a joke right?

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by lostalex

i'm just saying, if i die when i'm so pissed that i don't know if i'm alive or dead, then yea, that sounds like a good way to die. Cause I won't be around to put any more thought into it. i won't even know any better, like a baby. i hope that's how i die.

I don't think y'all understand the concept of oblivion.

It's not cruel to take life away from something that's not even really living. If it doesn't even know that it's alive, then how can you take life away from it?

If your heart is naturally beating and you can move and have brain activity that is the very definition of living.

Its not a state of mind its scientific fact that abortion is killing a living being.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

How about giving kids in care, kids in orphanages in desperately poor parts of the world, kids working at the age of five or six... kids who are written off as soon as they're born because they're not wanted by anyone. How about worrying about them instead of insisting women be encouraged to bring another unwanted, unloved child into the world because society thinks she should.

How about we think of that 'as well as' and not 'instead of'?

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by Zee

Good point - when someone's on life support, it's more or less a futile effort to keep their body working in the unlikely event that their brain wakes up at some indeterminate point down the line... if you turn it off, are they even going to be aware that they're dying?

But that's different, if a person is going to naturally die anyway turning off life support isn't murder as that person is not supposed to be alive anyway, they should and would be dead from whatever injury they have suffered.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by daniel-lewis-1985

But that's different, if a person is going to naturally die anyway turning off life support isn't murder as that person is not supposed to be alive anyway, they should and would be dead from whatever injury they have suffered.

In that case why bother with ambulances to pick up people from serious accicents?
By that logic that they can't survive without intervention why not just take them straight to the morgue?

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Livia

How about giving kids in care, kids in orphanages in desperately poor parts of the world, kids working at the age of five or six... kids who are written off as soon as they're born because they're not wanted by anyone. How about worrying about them instead of insisting women be encouraged to bring another unwanted, unloved child into the world because society thinks she should.

Absolutely.....the care system in this country alone is at breaking point as it is with not enough potential foster parents or adopters so more unwanted children just means the older and more vulnerable get pushed further to the back of the queue.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

In that case why bother with ambulances to pick up people from serious accicents?
By that logic that they can't survive without intervention why not just take them straight to the morgue?

Im not saying that im saying its not murder to not treat someone who would die from their injuries, its natural that person would die so you cant compare it to murder can you.