[Ammi]

..I've always thought that by definition it is but not in a judgemental way because I think that people can be in such a dark/lost place that they are incapable of seeing beyond themselves and their emotional pain and have lost all of their coping skills...but obviously such an extreme act leaves much pain for the people who loved them...I know this topic has been discussed before but I'm really interested in hearing people's thoughts about it...is it selfish..?...

..also, what if there was no extreme emotional pain but it was more of a 'whim' type thing..?...do you know anyone who has committed suicide..?...

[Z]

I don't think selfish is a very good word to use, because to me 'selfish' implies that you've thought about yourself and how you can do something to benefit yourself without thinking about how it'll impact on other people - killing yourself isn't benefitting yourself but otherwise the act of suicide does fit that description... so if there was a word that meant selfish but not in a beneficial way, then that would be better... I don't think very many people kill themselves just to spite anyone else, it's usually coming from a very dark place where they don't see light at the end of the tunnel or for a cause (e.g. suicide bombers or a mass suicide or whatever)... So yeah, it is more or less a selfish act by definition but I don't think very many people do it in order to be selfish... "I'm going to take my life away from myself just so other people can't have me in theirs" surely isn't a thought process that very many people have.

[Ammi]

..yeah, I just used the word selfish because I couldn't think of another to use...what about people you hear about/news stories etc that, say are in huge debt and have hidden that from their family and for the best reasons but then in killing themselves, they're still leaving that debt and worry for their family to deal with...what about that, is that selfish...?...obviously I can only guess at their emotional pain...

[smudgie]

I used to think it was selfish when I was younger, but have now come to the conclusion that it is the balance of the mind.

Three generations of my family have attempted it, two of them on more than one occasion.
One really meant it, the other two were really attention seeking.
In the end I told my mother to get on with it and do it right or stop upsetting peoples lives with her feeble attempts. Harsh maybe, but it worked.

I had a friend who killed herself, she left two tiny children behind, I could not understand it at the time, you feel a bit guilty and wonder if you could have been there a bit more for them or could have seen any signs of it going to happen.

[GypsyGoth]

I know people who have lost others through suicide. And it does seem like the type of subject that your opinions would change if you did lose someone because of it.

As it is I think that it's a shame there is such a stigma around it. And I don't even think it's linked to mental illness. I see suicide as simply someone choosing not to live. It must be very conflicting to loved ones of that person though. Like with cancer, you can hate the disease that took them.

Anyway yea it is a selfish act. I guess it'd be like signing up to do a play with others, and everyone is learning their lines and has gotten to know one another, then someone just up and leaves. So kinda taking yourself out of the situation without discussing it with others.

Maybe that's the solution, people could go discuss it with a counselor with their loved ones present. That way the suicide might not seem so sudden and unexplained. But as it is at the moment, it just seems to be almost a taboo issue.

[AnnieK]

I have completely mixed feelins on this. Until a year ago I would have said it is absolutely selfish, nothing could have changed my opinions but having thought about it I really don't know now.

On the face of it, yes it is absolutely selfish...your pain goes away but your loved ones carry the sadness and burden that they have in someway failed you. On the other hand.....for someone to have problems bad enough to make the decision to end their life, there must be something so big and bad that they just can't deal with other peoples thought and feelings.

Urrgh, I just don't know, it's such a half and half type thing....I can see it from both angles and neither side is black and white

[Tom4784]

I think it is, it's just passing on your pain to your loved ones and leaving them confused and guilt ridden thinking that they could have done more to help when they probably couldn't. I can understand it when it comes to things like Terminal Illness but with things like Depression things can always get better if you give them a chance.

[thesheriff443]

there are no winners in suicide.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think it is, it's just passing on your pain to your loved ones and leaving them confused and guilt ridden thinking that they could have done more to help when they probably couldn't. I can understand it when it comes to things like Terminal Illness but with things like Depression things can always get better if you give them a chance.

I agree but when you are in the black hole of depression, rational thoughts can elude you and you convince yourself that everyone would be better off if you weren't around...I don't think people who are that enveloped in the fog of depression think about others much to be honest which I suppose in itself is selfish but almost understandable

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

there are no winners in suicide.

Agreed

[Ninastar]

In ways I do yes... Especially when people hang themselves/overdose in their own house where someone they love will definitely find them.

We know someone who tried to commit suicide a few weeks back. He hung himself on the curtain rail and his girlfriend found him when she got home. He planned everything ahead so that when he was found, no one would be able to get him down because he hid all the knives in the house. She had to hold his unconscious body until the ambulance got there. I cant imagine anything worse.

I think its selfish, but I can also understand in some ways. I mean 80% of the time people commit suicide because of bullying. I think they end up thinking that badly of themselves that they dont end up thinking properly. So they arent in the right state of mind before attempting to do it. No one in their right mind would commit suicide, there is always a reason behind it. So its hard to say its totally selfish without knowing everything... I'm so undecided with this topic because I dont think we will ever understand until we've been there. Which I wouldn't wish on any tibber.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think it is, it's just passing on your pain to your loved ones and leaving them confused and guilt ridden thinking that they could have done more to help when they probably couldn't. I can understand it when it comes to things like Terminal Illness but with things like Depression things can always get better if you give them a chance.

..yeah, and I think when those loved ones are small children as Smudgie mentioned with someone she knew, what that person passes on is so much deeper as they'll struggle to understand it as they get older but those are the thoughts and rationing of a calm and mentally healthy mind and I'm guessing that someone who is taking their life doesn't have that though...

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

We know someone who tried to commit suicide a few weeks back. He hung himself on the curtain rail and his girlfriend found him when she got home. He planned everything ahead so that when he was found, no one would be able to get him down because he hid all the knives in the house. She had to hold his unconscious body until the ambulance got there. I cant imagine anything worse.

That's awful. It's like committing suicide out of spite. What a horribly vindictive person.

[AnnieK]

Or someone in need of some serious help?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

We know someone who tried to commit suicide a few weeks back. He hung himself on the curtain rail and his girlfriend found him when she got home. He planned everything ahead so that when he was found, no one would be able to get him down because he hid all the knives in the house. She had to hold his unconscious body until the ambulance got there. I cant imagine anything worse.

My mum knows a woman who hung herself on mothers day, AFTER checking that her daughter (and granddaughter) would be coming to see her and had a spare key to let herself in.

[Kizzy]

I think it's an issue of mental maturity... When you're young things appear black and white.
As you get older and saturn has spun about a bit longer you do tend to see things very differently.
This is a very emotive topic and one that usually becomes very heated due to members personal experiences. I hope this time it stays respectful to all points of view.

[GypsyGoth]

Actually thingie's half sister killed herself, Julie Roberts, and before she did it, she twitter something like American's Sweetheart is really a bitch (or something like that).

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think depression is little understood and until we understand it we cant judge. A friend of mine did this last year and left 4 young children...

[MTVN]

Yeah unless you've experiences it yourself I don't think anyone can comprehend the state of mind of someone whose depression is so consuming that taking their life seems to be the only way out of it, and all other considerations are subordinate to their need to escape the world

I don't know exactly but I'd guess that suicide is rarely a rational and thought out decision by someone of sound mind, so I don't think you can really put it down to selfishness or whatever because that assumes a rational and conscious decision, it simplifies something that can't be simplified

[Niall]

I think selfish is actually a very harsh term to use. It's riddled with judgement, and if someone's in that fragile state of mind then the last thing that should be done is putting anything of that sort onto them like that.

I can understand why people would be angry if they lost someone in that way, but honestly I refuse to believe it's a selfish act. I don't think it's a case of being selfish so much as it is that person maybe feeling too guilty to put their problems on other people, or seeing that dealing with things is far too complicated for them. It's very sad, but no, never selfish

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niall

I think selfish is actually a very harsh term to use. It's riddled with judgement, and if someone's in that fragile state of mind then the last thing that should be done is putting anything of that sort onto them like that.

I can understand why people would be angry if they lost someone in that way, but honestly I refuse to believe it's a selfish act. I don't think it's a case of being selfish so much as it is that person maybe feeling too guilty to put their problems on other people, or seeing that dealing with things is far too complicated for them. It's very sad, but no, never selfish

..yeah, I just didn't know how to word the title Niall and I have often seen written and people describe it as 'selfish' and I think by definition it is in the way that the person is without the capability to look beyond themselves at that moment and in that place they are in emotionally, it's not because they aren't thinking of others/loved ones, but because they're incapable of it...

[Natalie.]

I don't think it's selfish, it must be very hard for someone who feels so depressed that the only way to end that is to end their life.

[Z]

No I think it's good that you used the word selfish Ammi because it is the word that gets thrown around a lot and as the replies have shown it's never that black and white... I don't think there's a word that can adequately describe how suicidal people feel and how their deaths impact on others... probably because suicide isn't spoken about openly, it is quite a taboo subject... people never talk about the reasons why somebody would kill themselves...

A lady who lived round the corner from us committed suicide a few years ago... her son was about 6 years younger than me and was still in primary school when she killed herself; she'd locked the front door so he couldn't get in the house, he walked home from school and was then stuck on the front door step wondering where his mum was... I remember seeing him sitting there and saying hi to him but he didn't ask for help and I didn't think anything of it, and then a few hours later we noticed there was a private ambulance (hearse) parked outside and his dad came and took him away and then we saw the body bag come out... it was very sad. I'm not sure why she killed herself. I know that she was a single mum and she seemed very away with the fairies whenever you saw her but she was really nice... you never really know how somebody's feeling when you see them around, I don't think there's much anyone could do to help someone who's feeling that helpless... to get better you need to want to get help and some people just don't believe in a better tomorrow

[arista]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I've always thought that by definition it is but not in a judgemental way because I think that people can be in such a dark/lost place that they are incapable of seeing beyond themselves and their emotional pain and have lost all of their coping skills...but obviously such an extreme act leaves much pain for the people who loved them...I know this topic has been discussed before but I'm really interested in hearing people's thoughts about it...is it selfish..?...

..also, what if there was no extreme emotional pain but it was more of a 'whim' type thing..?...do you know anyone who has committed suicide..?...

Yes it is Selfish

Do you know there is a thread on this (Exact same title)
and about 20 OTHERS

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes it is Selfish

Do you know there is a thread on this (Exact same title)
and about 20 OTHERS

..yes I did know it had been discussed before Arista, I think I might have even made the thread myself..but as we have lots of new members, I think they deserve a new thread, rather than resurrect the old one...