[arista]

Joey on the Fence again

[Israel has to be able to stand up for itself, it has every right not to be just walked over too. ]

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

You could always make one though I'm not aware of pledges to wipe Israel off the map coming from any of those countries apart from Iran, and if we accept they did say that it was years ago so there wouldn't be a recent thread about it. The Ahmadinejad era is over in Iran. This is a very current story which is making the news and being discussed worldwide, I don't see the fault in arista starting the thread or any of us posting in it

I'm not a thread-maker, you might have noticed. And there's very little chance I'd make a thread about Israel knowing what the usual reaction is.

You know where Israel is situated. They have no real friends, a couple of acquaintances they're on nodding terms with, but mostly they have enemies. Hatred and attacks against Jews across the world has increased... and likewise hatred of Israel. And sooner or later we'll get around to blaming the UK for being instrumental in creating the state of Israel in the 40s... when in actual fact, regardless of whether the state had been created or not, nothing would have stopped the Jews returning to Israel.

Aaaanyhoo.... I suppose I see this from a very different angle so I will probably step out at this point.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Joey on the Fence again

[Israel has to be able to stand up for itself, it has every right not to be just walked over too. ]

Where pray,is saying clearly that a nation has the right to stand up for itself and not be walked over, and to then identify that nation too,sitting on the fence.

[arista]

Its Great to have Livia's view
and MTVN 's view

And Nedusa
the other Early morning poster like me.

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Where pray,is saying clearly that a nation has the right to stand up for itself and not be walked over, and to then identify that nation too,sitting on the fence.

But the rest of you post is on the Fence
its joey wishy washy style


"While I can also agree in part with Nedusa"



I say Israel Go ahead
Feck USA


Joey you are on the Fence

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

But the rest of you post is on the Fence
its joey wishy washy style


"While I can also agree in part with Nedusa"



I say Israel Go ahead
Feck USA


Joey you are on the Fence

I rarely sit on the fence unless I have no strong feelings either way.

It is not sitting on the fence to make a choice and state where your support lies as I did as to the conclusions of my original post.

Sitting on the fence means making no choice.Which I rarely do,the only thing I do often do, is be swayed by arguments stronger than mine and from where I can see I maybe made the wrong choice.
That is no way at allt he case on this issue.

People also,(as I said I agreed with nedusa in part), can in fact agree and see where the other person is coming from,however I did not fully agree with nedusa and came down on the side of Israel, although respecting their position too.

Again that is not sitting on the fence, it is a reasoned debate position and with a respectful,reasoned exchange of opinion.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

That is my point too, it is said Iran said this a good while ago, however I saw no condemnation from inside Iran when it was said.

Hey, faced with trusting Israel or Iran, then I would take Israel any day of the week.

While I can also agree in part with Nedusa,(and by the way I don't cherry pick what I say either),that Israel has committed wrongs as to the Palestinian people, it is easy to condemn Israel for that while then choosing to turn a blind eye to the more extreme elements as to the Palestinians inflicting,even at times unprovoked, attacks on ordinary citizens of Israel too.

Maybe more needs to be done as to the Palestinian issue with Israel,meanwhile in addition to that,Israel still has so many hostile nations around it.
Israel has to be able to stand up for itself, it has every right not to be just walked over too.

Make no mistake nobody.......and I repeat Nobody walks over Israel, 6 Billion Dollars a year from the US all the advanced weaponry that the US has and over 200 thermonuclear warheads makes sure that Israel is never walked all over.

That really isn't the problem tbh.... the problem is that Israel uses this victim mentality to ensure they can pretty much do what they want to the Palestinians, I could spend hours here listing atrocity after atrocity that has been bestowed on the Palestinian people. Their tragedy is of Biblical proportions yet no one in the West seems to give a fig about their plight.

It is sickening and disgraceful and the US must take a large portion of the blame as it gives massive financial aid , advanced weaponry, intelligence, logistics and has allowed Israel to amass the 6th largest Nuclear weapons stockpile in the world (Allegedly).

The US uses its position to support Israel at all levels, it vetos UN resolution after UN resolution allowing Israel to commit mass murder and Genocide whenever it feels "threatened"

The state of Israel is a blight on this planet and there will never be peace in the Middle East until Israel accepts it must make reparations to the Palestinians for the initial land grab and decades of murderous enslavement that has followed.

Israel must stop this war mentality and make a lasting peace and reach a settlement with the Palestinians and its Arab neighbours.

The US could push this process along if it wished but it does nothing but continue the Status quo. It is a truly shocking spectacle to witness.

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I rarely sit on the fence unless I have no strong feelings either way.

It is not sitting on the fence to make a choice and state where your support lies as I di as to the conlsions of my original post.

Sitting on the fence means making no choice.Which I rarely do,the only thing I do often do, is be swayed by arguments stronger than mine and from where I can see I maybe made the wrong choice.
That is no way at allt he case on this issue.

People also,(as I said I agreed with nedusa in part), can in fact agree and see where the other person is coming from,however I did not fully agree with nedusa and came down on the side of Israel, although respecting their position too.

Again that is not sitting on the fence, it is a reasoned debate position and with a respectful,reasoned exchange of opinion.

OK so are you with me on them Nuking Iran

or are you with the USA President of do nothing

[Brother Leon]

They just about managed to handle Hezbollah didn't they(if that)? I imagine this could be very messy for both parties should it happen

[arista]

Originally Posted by Brother Leon

They just about managed to handle Hezbollah didn't they(if that)? I imagine this could be very messy for both parties should it happen

Yes it can start WW3


I am ready
are You?

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes it can start WW3


I am ready
are You?

What..?? You are ready for WW3 really. Do you have your own deep nuclear bunker Arista ? with plenty of food and water to wait out the Nuclear Winter.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

They would need the help of the US to do this and the US is trying to make political progress with Iran not help Israel bomb them back to the Stone Age .

He really is a vile man. Bombing iran is literally just going to turn more people to extremism, it's not helping

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Make no mistake nobody.......and I repeat Nobody walks over Israel, 6 Billion Dollars a year from the US all the advanced weaponry that the US has and over 200 thermonuclear warheads makes sure that Israel is never walked all over.

That really isn't the problem tbh.... the problem is that Israel uses this victim mentality to ensure they can pretty much do what they want to the Palestinians, I could spend hours here listing atrocity after atrocity that has been bestowed on the Palestinian people. Their tragedy is of Biblical proportions yet no one in the West seems to give a fig about their plight.

It is sickening and disgraceful and the US must take a large portion of the blame as it gives massive financial aid , advanced weaponry, intelligence, logistics and has allowed Israel to amass the 6th largest Nuclear weapons stockpile in the world (Allegedly).

The US uses its position to support Israel at all levels, it vetos UN resolution after UN resolution allowing Israel to commit mass murder and Genocide whenever it feels "threatened"

The state of Israel is a blight on this planet and there will never be peace in the Middle East until Israel accepts it must make reparations to the Palestinians for the initial land grab and decades of murderous enslavement that has followed.

Israel must stop this war mentality and make a lasting peace and reach a settlement with the Palestinians and its Arab neighbours.

The US could push this process along if it wished but it does nothing but continue the Status quo. It is a truly shocking spectacle to witness.

I think that,to be fair, is a rather inflammatory statement.
Furthermore, no one should be able to walk over Israel,no way.

I can agree it could help to get a solution to the Palestinian issue but I actually feel the USA and to a degree the UK too have failed to really come up with a satisfactory outcome to the negotiations as to that.

I could never agree that Israel is a blight on the planet,There are likely a majority of Israeli's in Israel who would love to be able to exist in peace and not have threats of war going on all the time as to it.

With respect too, even with a Palestinian solution between Israel and the Palestinians,I very much doubt that will stop the tensions in the main in the Middle East as to countries like Iran,who are against Israel even being there at all.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

What..?? You are ready for WW3 really. Do you have your own deep nuclear bunker Arista ? with plenty of food and water to wait out the Nuclear Winter.

Yes plenty of food long life

and Alkaline Batterys from Bankrupt Kodak Stock
8 for a pound use by 2024
at poundland.


Same Duracell Long Life 8
would cost Ł9 or more

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I think that,to be fair, is a rather inflammatory statement.
Furthermore, no one should be able to walk over Israel,no way.

I can agree it could help to get a solution to the Palestinian issue but I actually feel the USA and to a degree the UK too have failed to really come up with a satisfactory outcome to the negotiations as to that.

I could never agree that Israel is a blight on the planet,There are likely a majority of Israeli's in Israel who would love to be able to exist in peace and not have threats of war going on all the time as to it.

With respect too, even with a Palestinian solution between Israel and the Palestinians,I very much doubt that will stop the tensions in the main in the Middle East as to countries like Iran,who are against Israel even being there at all.

The way Israel is governed is tantamount to an apartheid state like pre Mandela South africa. The Palestinian Israelis are treated like 2nd class citizens and the Palestinians are treated worse than animals.

And funnily enough they are all semites so have no grounds for being racist.

Fact is Israel are not willing to allow Muslims to share any power in "their" land even if it was stolen from the Palestinians in the first place.

Ordinary Israelis are apologists for their Govt's they know deep down they are living on stolen land and know they have to support their Govt and it's armies to keep the status quo.

America knows it must support Israel financially and politically to keep Israel as the only Hegemon in the area so the US has an ally on the ground so to speak. It's all politics really but tell that to the innocent Palestinians who are brutalised daily and for decades. not much fun for them.

This is why Israel is hated by most if not all Arab Countries and Countries with Shiite populations like Iran.

This is why the US is hated in equal measure because they prop up this illegal state.

When people condone Israel and lay the blame at Hamas or Hezbollah they are showing extreme ignorance and don't want to see the truth that is right in front of their faces.

so yes the "tensions" as you put it will take years if not decades to subside because the damage done to generations of Palestinian families will take that long to be repaired.

[Livia]

With respect, Nedusa, many Palestinians live and work quite happily alongside the Jews in Israel. What's more, I'm at a loss to know why being a semite means you have no grounds for being a racist. Anyone of any colour and any creed can be racist.

I quite take exception to the suggestion that people who condone Israel are showing show extreme ignorance. In my eyes, people who've never been to Israel and experienced it first hand and who never even consider there may be another page in the book, and yet make massive, sweeping generalisations are maybe the ones showing ignorance.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Livia

With respect, Nedusa, many Palestinians live and work quite happily alongside the Jews in Israel. What's more, I'm at a loss to know why being a semite means you have no grounds for being a racist. Anyone of any colour and any creed can be racist.

I quite take exception to the suggestion that people who condone Israel are showing show extreme ignorance. In my eyes, people who've never been to Israel and experienced it first hand and who never even consider there may be another page in the book, and yet make massive, sweeping generalisations are maybe the ones showing ignorance.

Sorry Livia , with respect please do even try and defend the indefensible....

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

With respect, Nedusa, many Palestinians live and work quite happily alongside the Jews in Israel. What's more, I'm at a loss to know why being a semite means you have no grounds for being a racist. Anyone of any colour and any creed can be racist.

I quite take exception to the suggestion that people who condone Israel are showing show extreme ignorance. In my eyes, people who've never been to Israel and experienced it first hand and who never even consider there may be another page in the book, and yet make massive, sweeping generalisations are maybe the ones showing ignorance.

I fully agree, I am stunned at some of the comments posted on this thread actually.

You are of course right too in that Palestinians and Jews do work fine together in that area.
I don't think you are even trying to defend the indefensible,you would never need to, you are only stating truth and truth you have experienced and know 100% about too.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Sorry Livia , with respect please do even try and defend the indefensible....

This is supposed to be a debate. I'm not defending all the actions of the Israeli government, but I should be able to say my piece as I see it without being asked not to.

Originally Posted by Nedusa

And if you have been to Israel and have seen it close up, then shame on you for not being honest enough to condemn the regime without reservation.

Shame on me? For speaking about another side to the argument? Because there IS another side. But a discussion about Israel is not possible, sadly.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I fully agree, I am stunned at some of the comments posted on this thread actually.

You are of course right too in that Palestinians and Jews do work fine together in that area.
I don't think you are even trying to defend the indefensible,you would never need to, you are only stating truth and truth you have experienced and know 100% about too.

Thank you, Joey. And of course, no right-minded person could agree with everything Israel does. Sadly this is not a black and white discussion... and as I don't feel free to contribute as with all threads concerning Israel, I'm stepping out.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Thank you, Joey. And of course, no right-minded person could agree with everything Israel does. Sadly this is not a black and white discussion... and as I don't feel free to contribute as with all threads concerning Israel, I'm stepping out.

You shouldn't feel like that Livia, you can tell us with much more balance and knowledge of fact, what the real situation is other than the biased ones one way or the other.

You have always said in posts past and present that Israel does not do all things right or even well at times but as you point out, there is more to the situation than what is just on the surface.

I myself have taken on board and learned loads as to this issue from your posts and your presentation of the issues.
I really thank you and respect you for all that enlightenment too.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

You shouldn't feel like that Livia, you can tell us with much more balance and knowledge of fact, what the real situation is other than the biased ones one way or the other.

You have always said in posts past and present that Israel does not do all things right or even well at times but as you point out, there is more to the situation than what is just on the surface.

I myself have taken on board and learned loads as to this issue from your posts and your presentation of the issues.
I really thank you and respect you for all that enlightenment too.

You're a gent, Joeysteele. x

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm not a thread-maker, you might have noticed. And there's very little chance I'd make a thread about Israel knowing what the usual reaction is.

You know where Israel is situated. They have no real friends, a couple of acquaintances they're on nodding terms with, but mostly they have enemies. Hatred and attacks against Jews across the world has increased... and likewise hatred of Israel. And sooner or later we'll get around to blaming the UK for being instrumental in creating the state of Israel in the 40s... when in actual fact, regardless of whether the state had been created or not, nothing would have stopped the Jews returning to Israel.

Aaaanyhoo.... I suppose I see this from a very different angle so I will probably step out at this point.

I don't agree with some of the sentiments in this thread and I have nothing against Israel's right to exist - I appreciate that their whole modern existence has been marred by threats to that. I don't, though, think that it needs to be a straight choice between Israel and Iran, Israel and Palestine, Israel and the Arab world. IMO both sides have put up barriers to conciliation and the hardliners on each side have fed and enabled each other. Both sides should appreciate that it can't be sustainable for regional neighbours to constantly be holding hostile positions against each other. Iran could have their grievances as well. While Israel may feel surrounded they are a nuclear armed state with the backing of (arguably) the most powerful country on the planet. Iran on the other hand has been cut off from the international community and met with constant sanctions and threats. It could of course be said that their actions have deserved that but I'm not sure if it does anything other than exacerbate the divide and encourage the hardliners to a position of strength on the back of a wave of anti-Israel/America sentiment. And in turn the attitude of Ahmedinejad and the actions of Hamas etc have enabled a belligerent figure like Netanyahu rise to a position of strength and allowed him to justify things like the settlement program, the iron hand on Gaza and the indiscriminate bombing campaigns. And that in turns feeds the anti-Israel hardliners. And so on. It's a maddening cycle of violence, surely at some point or the other one side has to relent on the hostility and sabre rattling. Maybe that's not possible with Iran and others because they're so opposed to Israel's very existence. But it's got to be worth a try and would be in everyone's interests.

[Livia]

I'm not going to continue a discussion, as I said... but I just had to say, great post MTVN.

[MTVN]

Ah I completely understand why you wouldn't want to post in this thread Livia but just to echo what Joey said I do really appreciate your view - even if we don't always agree - and the knowledge you bring to this subject. I think the worst thing anyone can do is to try and make out that they alone completely understand the situation when its as complex as it is