[joeysteele]

These are horrendous situations and you have my full sympathy because for you in the middle of it and seeing the time pass by and your Mum's hurt too,is one of the worst things to be in as you can often feel so helpless.

There are no real legal rights for grandparents to have full contact with grandchildren but there is a court route, something like a contact order can be applied for which may or may not succeed, this could take the form of face to face contact or indirect contact such as cards, gifts and letters.

However, the odds are all stacked in who has the custody of the children's favour,it has to be shown,
a) that the children could be harmed by having no contact with grandparents by tthe grandparents and then accepted by a court,or
b) that the children may be harmed by having contact with grandparents from the Mother or parents of the children.

Really the court route can make matters far worse because with the odds stacked in the Mother's or both parents favour, losing such an application can make any rift for worse and maybe permamently beyond repair.
As the Mother or parents could get even more hostile after such an action.

The gentle route of maintaining gentle contact and mediation from a trusted source like yourself, may well be what opens up the main doors in the end.
Ammi, as ever has in my view given really sound advice and that really is the best way to go about this.
Once it becomes a part of legal action then the future has no guarantees at all of any success or that anything may be able to end up being resolved in the future.

You have a hard task there the truth, I wish you long patience, understanding and success in the end but it may end up sadly where until the children are older and then wish to see and seek out their grandparents or in your case their grandmother,that will have to be the thing hoped for.

Your Mum is doing right to send cards,letters and gifts, if they are not being returned then maybe all is far from lost.
I myself would have hated to have not been able to see my Grandmothers.

Good luck and all my very best wishes to you with hopes you, with others, can bring about some tolerance between all parties that ensures good things for the children,your Mum and your family too.
When heels are being dug in however, it is really a time thing,that may be short or long, I don't envy your position in this one bit but keep trying and who knows when a breakthrough may happen.
Please listen to Ammi.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Really? I'm not sure I'd agree with that if it is true unless the children used to live with them or something

IIRC it is along those lines, grandparents can only claim a legal right to see grandchildren if it has been "usual" for them to be a big part of their lives: e.g. A grandparent looking after children every day after school until parents finish work, and then suddenly some rift resulting in ceased contact. If the grandparent didn't have any caring role like that then they really have no legal grounds... And rightly so, in my opinion.

My eldest daughter didn't see her grandparents on my wife's side from around 8 months until nearly 2 and a half. There was a falling out that involved that whole side of the family and, frankly, they were awful to my wife. Really, truly nasty things were said and we cut contact completely. At that point, also, they had a tendency to belittle her and treat her like a child (and a not very well respected child at that) and simply refused to form an equal, adult relationship. They weren't the best parents to her growing up, in various ways.

I actually had to threaten police involvement because my wife was being essentially harassed by text... Eventually we moved over 200 miles away (not for that reason, we had decided to relocate anyway) and my wife got a new mobile number and simply didn't give them any contact details.

We do see them semi regularly now, for the last 3 years or so, and things are generally fine when we do. For the mostpart they have finally accepted that they have to treat us with respect and as equals and if that starts to "slip" (which it does on occasion) conversations are simply put to a swift end and picked up again when they've calmed down. They're just very volatile people, basically.

Anyway, sort of going on a bit, my main point here is that it should always be the parents choice. My wife's parents are both outwardly very "normal", fairly well off, have good jobs, blah blah. They're very good at getting people "on side" and massively misrepresenting things for example, they successfully turned all of my wife's grandparents against her (she still hasn't forgiven one of her grandfathers for some of the things he said) and if there WERE legal avenues for grandparents to access their grandkids, I can almost guarantee that they would have taken them, and that they would have easily convinced a court to grant access, at a time when being forced to see them would have been utterly toxic for our little family and quite traumatic for my wife. It would also have bred a life-long resentment, when all that was really needed was space and time for the relationship to be properly reassessed.

Basically... I believe that unless there is some very strong evidence that parents are making bad decisions, it is essential that they be allowed to take a strong stance in any scenario and decide what's best for them as a family unit. No one should be entitled to undermine a parent's stance on these issues via legal avenues, unless there is a very good reason.

[user104658]

In answer to your question, truth, it sounds like there are very deep rifts there and if your mother wants that relationship then she's going to have to work hard to repair those rifts. If she can't, or won't, then she has to accept that she just isn't a part of their families.

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

In answer to your question, truth, it sounds like there are very deep rifts there and if your mother wants that relationship then she's going to have to work hard to repair those rifts. If she can't, or won't, then she has to accept that she just isn't a part of their families.

I would second this truth ^^^^^

I'm sort of in a similar situation, there's a deep rift between my dad and me, and that has led to me not going to see him and as a result he's not a part of my life, that's not because i don't want him to be a part of my life, i do....but there's only so many times you can give a person chances and only so many times you can be kicked when you're down, as a result he has no relationship with my children and yes it makes me sad, but it's now up to my dad to make amends as there is seriously nothing more i can do.

I think as TS said, it's down to your mum to make amends, i would stay out of it.

[Northern Monkey]

Hmm.Maybe try to appeal to the sibblings caring side and explain how lonely your mother is and how she needs her family more than ever at the moment.Also how cruel they are being by cutting her off like that.
You only get one mum.Explain how if they don't bite the bullet and swallow their pride they may regret their decision for the rest of their lives.Say that it's cruel for their kids to never get the opportunity to see their grandmother and they won't thank them for it when they get older.

[Josy]

Coming from someone that has a massive family with it's fair share of arguments and falling outs my honest advice would be to keep well out of it, I know it's hard to watch things like that going on and seeing your family members hurt and so on but regardless of how good your intentions are someone will turn on you at some point.

[user104658]

I agree with both Eyeball and Josy.

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

Hmm.Maybe try to appeal to the sibblings caring side and explain how lonely your mother is and how she needs her family more than ever at the moment.Also how cruel they are being by cutting her off like that.
You only get one mum.Explain how if they don't bite the bullet and swallow their pride they may regret their decision for the rest of their lives.Say that it's cruel for their kids to never get the opportunity to see their grandmother and they won't thank them for it when they get older.

I don't necessarily agree that it's "cruel" to have cut her off as we don't know the specifics of the falling out (and The Truth might not either, he only has various people's versions of what exactly has happened) and in some cases it can be totally justified...

... However I do agree that if she has the potential to be a good grandparent to the children (even if not the best parent) as with my in-laws, then it's worth trying to keep a "civil" relationship for the sake of the children having that extra person in their life. They could just make it clear that they don't want any judgement / advice / commentary on their own lives and just keep things friendly, polite but shallow in order to facilitate a relationship with the grandchildren.

Originally Posted by Josy

Coming from someone that has a massive family with it's fair share of arguments and falling outs my honest advice would be to keep well out of it, I know it's hard to watch things like that going on and seeing your family members hurt and so on but regardless of how good your intentions are someone will turn on you at some point.

But then I also totally agree with this. If you don't want your own relationships damaged then you need to stay out of it. The whole "final straw" with my wife came when she stepped in to stand up for her (much) younger sister who was only 15 at the time and very unhappy at home (she ended up living with us for 3 months) and basically us speaking up for her resulted in a LOT of nastiness being thrown at us. Not that we would have done things any differently, someone had to stand up for her and my wife would choose protecting her little sister over a relationship with her parents, infinitely, but it is important to remember that if you choose to step in then you inevitably choose a "side" and put yourself in the firing line. Only get involved if you're truly prepared to do that, AND if you're sure that you really do know exactly what is going on.

[the truth]

im trying to think what else to tell you....my mother has suffered a bit with depression over the years...she has her faults and strengths etc shes quite outspoken in some ways...ive noticed than my siblings have always been very critical of her....theyre basically very critical people, not bad people just very critical. they rarely just enjoy stuff...the irony is though they have very thin skin and any criticism directed at them they take personally and hold onto it as a grudge. theyre pretty similar. I cant see any major rifts, my mother was a bit spendthrift , my dad was extraordinarily generous and hard working. maybe the felt she took advantage of that? but she did care for him when he got ill , for years, yet never once have they patted her on the back for that?now hes passed away sadly, and she doesn't get to see her grand kids?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by the truth

im trying to think what else to tell you....my mother has suffered a bit with depression over the years...she has her faults and strengths etc shes quite outspoken in some ways...ive noticed than my siblings have always been very critical of her....theyre basically very critical people, not bad people just very critical. they rarely just enjoy stuff...the irony is though they have very thin skin and any criticism directed at them they take personally and hold onto it as a grudge. theyre pretty similar. I cant see any major rifts, my mother was a bit spendthrift , my dad was extraordinarily generous and hard working. maybe the felt she took advantage of that? but she did care for him when he got ill , for years, yet never once have they patted her on the back for that?now hes passed away sadly, and she doesn't get to see her grand kids?

..I'm sure that your mum has always acted out of love and what she's thought best and tried to be a good parent, whether she's always got it right or not or whether it's always been taken the right way..?..this is why these things/families are just so complicated...I don't know, maybe 'outspoken' to your siblings has often felt like criticism of things they have done and maybe has never felt like support...so maybe they themselves through that have also become critical because that's what they have learned through their young lives..that's how it is, isn't it truth..?..we learn through example etc..we hug them, we make them feel confident and loved and they learn how to love..we criticise them and make them feel that they can't do stuff right and they learn how to criticise because they themselves don't feel confident and have low self esteem etc... and these things just go round and round and pass down and we don't even realise it..and yeah, I really do think that she's always probably acted in what she thinks is the best way and out of love but that's not necessarily what they're seeing or have seen because maybe they haven't felt that love...?...anyway, I honestly don't know but I do feel that she should be given a chance to form a relationship with her grandchildren and them with her...for your siblings sakes as well just because there is no point and no accommodation for regrets in the future should the chance be completely lost...but it is completely their decision as parents because they're also acting out of love and what they feel is the best thing for their children as well..

..I think the only thing for the moment is for your mum and siblings to see if there is a starting point where they could begin to mend their relationship and come to an understanding with each other and one hopefully which meant the children could get to know their grandmother and form their own views...I know this will take time and I guess in the meantime, if she is able to write and they write back to her or maybe if she's able to do email/you could help her understand the internet technology, they could have email contact...or texting..?..whichever though, I think it's important too that their parents have full knowledge and approve this as I don't think it would do anything but fuel negativity and probably make things worse if it was done without them knowing and being ok with it.... I wish you well/I wish you all well and hope that you all find a way with this......

[lostalex]

i think you are in denial a bit about your mother. if 2 of her daughters can't stand her there must be a legitimate reason why. I doubt your sisters are just totally heartless cruel human beings, and "being sarcastic" is not the reason. I think you should love your mother the way you want to love her, but also respect your sisters to have their own relationships with her.

I hope this doesn't damage your relationship with your sisters, remember, your mother will be gone long before your sisters will.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by lostalex

i think you are in denial a bit about your mother. if 2 of her daughters can't stand her there must be a legitimate reason why. I doubt your sisters are just totally heartless cruel human beings, and "being sarcastic" is not the reason. I think you should love your mother the way you want to love her, but also respect your sisters to have their own relationships with her.

I hope this doesn't damage your relationship with your sisters, remember, your mother will be gone long before your sisters will.

1 is a brother 1 is a sister
what does your last line infer alex?