[Suze]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Like every other party Rob, UKIP are far from perfect, but with me it's a case of the Pro's FAR outweighing any CONS.

In my opinion, the EU and our 'Open Door' immigration policy are THE two issues which are of the gravest, most urgent concern for this country's future survival, and Farage is THE only politician who is genuine, honest and passionate about addressing them both - the other leaders are paying lip service or have policies which are in opposition to my own views.

As LT says; there is NOTHING in the UKIP Manifesto to alarm anyone, and if the day ever came when Farage held power directly or the balance of power in a coalition, and adverse policies DID start to be proposed or implemented, then ALL of us have the vote to remove him.

The other (Big) two party leaders are PROVEN liars whereas Farage is merely the victim of propaganda.

I'll give him a chance.

I have to agree with you. It is not a question of who is the best as I agree with the pros outweighing the cons. Those pros and cons will be different to each voter, which parties policies they consider will work in their best interests and how it will affect them. Also if we forever vote between two main parties, how if we don't at least give others a chance will we ever know for sure the effects their policies they will have on the Country.

I may not have put very well what I am trying to say because I am not really that pollitically minded, but one party I know I won't be voting for sure, is the Tories.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Suze

I have to agree with you. It is not a question of who is the best as I agree with the pros outweighing the cons. Those pros and cons will be different to each voter, which parties policies they consider will work in their best interests and how it will affect them. Also if we forever vote between two main parties, how if we don't at least give others a chance will we ever know for sure the effects their policies they will have on the Country.

I may not have put very well what I am trying to say because I am not really that pollitically minded, but one party I know I won't be voting for sure, is the Tories.

"Au Contraire", Suze, "Mais oui, mais oui" as my favourite aspirant Tory Boy Del Trotter would say - you put it perfectly well and I understand everything you say.

I'm glad we are in agreement too.

[Kizzy]

I don't think del boy would be a tory boy today, as a bish bosh dosh kind of guy he'd have found his way to Essex by now and defected to UKIP.

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Firewire, may I please ask since it says you are in Glasgow, are you finding any real change as to your family's voting intentions there at all.

Not really, we've never been an SNP-family. My family were anti-independence which is where the dislike of the SNP stems from. Personally, I think Nicola Sturgeon is great.

When I say family I mean immediate, I'm not sure about my aunts and uncles political stances.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Not really, we've never been an SNP-family. My family were anti-independence which is where the dislike of the SNP stems from. Personally, I think Nicola Sturgeon is great.

When I say family I mean immediate, I'm not sure about my aunts and uncles political stances.

You have such an intelligent immediate family Firewire. My respect to them.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't think del boy would be a tory boy today, as a bish bosh dosh kind of guy he'd have found his way to Essex by now and defected to UKIP.

"Luvverly Jubbly." If only. (I don't think so though - Delboy likes black people because it was Councillor Murray who gave him his 'Improvement Grant'.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgO3CLVrn1U

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

"Luvverly Jubbly." If only. (I don't think so though - Delboy likes black people because it was Councillor Murray who gave him his 'Improvement Grant'.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgO3CLVrn1U

Oh yes silly me he couldn't possibly be a UKIP advocate, he isn't racist... I stand corrected

[Mitchell]

Lib Dem with Plaid close, I don't live in Wales so can't vote for the latter and LD would be a wasted vote sadly.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Pothuthic

Lib Dem with Plaid close, I don't live in Wales so can't vote for the latter and LD would be a wasted vote sadly.

Cause of your constituency? The Lib Dems need every vote they can get

[Mitchell]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Cause of your constituency? The Lib Dems need every vote they can get

Yeah there's no chance of Lib dem getting in, other than that UKIP and Tory are 1% apart from each other, so Tory gets my vote automatically.

[Kyle]

It's kind of like asking you what's your favourite out of Leeds United, Millwall, Luton or Chelsea. There's just no good answer.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by MTVN

There can be quite a lot of hyperbole around that - I mean, to associate Ukip with neo-nazism is just nonsense.

There are definite similarities though. It is a far right political party which has hired ultra-nationalists, racist, xenophobes and homophobic people.

I'm not going to pull up articles for proof because they're literally everywhere for anybody to see but all of the above cases do exist. I'm not calling UKIP nazis, I'm calling many of the UKIP employees and some of their supporters neo-nazis, there is a difference between the two words and it's not even a case of a difference of opinion, this is a fact.


Just to be clear

Neo-Nazism borrows elements from Nazi doctrine, including ultranationalism, racism, ableism, xenophobia, homophobia, antisemitism

Nazi: noun historical: a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.

Different things.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Withano

There are definite similarities though. It is a far right political party which has hired ultra-nationalists, racist, xenophobes and homophobic people.

I'm not going to pull up articles for proof because they're literally everywhere for anybody to see but all of the above cases do exist. I'm not calling UKIP nazis, I'm calling many of the UKIP employees and some of their supporters neo-nazis, there is a difference between the two words and it's not even a case of a difference of opinion, this is a fact.


Just to be clear

Neo-Nazism borrows elements from Nazi doctrine, including ultranationalism, racism, ableism, xenophobia, homophobia, antisemitism

Nazi: noun historical: a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.

Different things.

They most certainly haven't done enough to distance themselves from far right groups either.

[Helen 28]

Anybody who thinks UKIP is far right is deluded.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Helen 28

Anybody who thinks UKIP is far right is deluded.

Deluded or correct?

[bots]

Originally Posted by Withano

Deluded or correct?

That has the tories at the same level as ukip, if that is the case then ukip are not far right at all. There should at least be some room to the right for extreme fascist type party's, the tories aren't even close to that.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

That has the tories at the same level as ukip, if that is the case then ukip are not far right at all. There should at least be some room to the right for extreme fascist type party's, the tories aren't even close to that.

My exact thoughts Bitontheslide.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It was also true however that the Conservatives and Lib Dems were the ones running Birmingham City Council for many years,that also didn't do anything about that Mock, and the Councils are much closer to such issues than govt:.

Labour only recently,in the last year or 2, wrestled Birmingham Council from the Conservatives and Lib Dems,who were running it together for ages.

I could agree however that there is an imbalance as to some religious tolerance of some, while not wanting to open up a religious battle here, lets say Christian children no longer get what are called sort of holydays off while those of other faiths in some areas or cases likely do.
I do get where you are coming from.

However, if you think Labour had or have any intention of really privatising the NHS,well see what happens if the Conservatives get their hands on the NHS for another 5 years.
It will be clearly seen,once their hidden agenda towards the NHS comes forward again,after the election is over, what privatisation will really take place.
Not this time as a stopgap,or small holding in the NHS but throughout it completely.

While maybe it is right or not to hold Labour responsible for the crisis that hit almost everywhere in the financial world, due to the bankers creating the banking/financial crisis and in part contributing to the global recessions that came with it.

Labour had, to be fair, 11 continuous years of growth and no recessions between 1997 to 2007.
The criticism I would make of Labour was not of economic incompetence but lack of investment in the economy, even when it wasn't needed to invest in it,to ensure protection for any dark crisis that may come along.

Hello Joey, I agree with you that the NHS will be privatised more under Conservatives, but I just felt like pointing out that it's not safe under Labour or UKIP.

I do hate how Conservatives keep privatising all the UK's big firms and Health Services though.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Hello Joey, I agree with you that the NHS will be privatised more under Conservatives, but I just felt like pointing out that it's not safe under Labour or UKIP.

I do hate how Conservatives keep privatising all the UK's big firms and Health Services though.

IF UKIP Were ever to attain power and ever try to privatise the NHS or try to dismantle it, I will give EVERY penny I have to Joey Steel to donate to the Labour Party campaign fund - THAT's how confident I am that talk of them doing so is propaganda.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Withano

There are definite similarities though. It is a far right political party which has hired ultra-nationalists, racist, xenophobes and homophobic people.

I'm not going to pull up articles for proof because they're literally everywhere for anybody to see but all of the above cases do exist. I'm not calling UKIP nazis, I'm calling many of the UKIP employees and some of their supporters neo-nazis, there is a difference between the two words and it's not even a case of a difference of opinion, this is a fact.


Just to be clear

Neo-Nazism borrows elements from Nazi doctrine, including ultranationalism, racism, ableism, xenophobia, homophobia, antisemitism

Nazi: noun historical: a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.

Different things.

I'm aware of the nature of a lot of Ukip's members and supporters and commented on it in this thread, but neo-Nazism refers to a very distinct and particular ideology which has its select subscribers, sure, but it has not really infiltrated itself into Ukip. Even if you were to argue that they have neo-nazi members it is hardly possible that those people could force those views into the party's established doctrine. Neo-nazism has its advocates and its parties in Britain but Ukip are not amonst those, it's an ideology which goes beyond a few buzzwords.

If we want to tackle Ukip lets face up to the problems of their actual policies rather than trying to smear them with a 'neo-nazi' tag which really just prevents constructing any meaningful opposition to Ukip.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

IF UKIP Were ever to attain power and ever try to privatise the NHS or try to dismantle it, I will give EVERY penny I have to Joey Steel to donate to the Labour Party campaign fund - THAT's how confident I am that talk of them doing so is propaganda.

Apart of right wing policies is the privatisation of everything.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I'm aware of the nature of a lot of Ukip's members and supporters and commented on it in this thread, but neo-Nazism refers to a very distinct and particular ideology which has its select subscribers, sure, but it has not really infiltrated itself into Ukip. Even if you were to argue that they have neo-nazi members it is hardly possible that those people could force those views into the party's established doctrine. Neo-nazism has its advocates and its parties in Britain but Ukip are not amonst those, it's an ideology which goes beyond a few buzzwords.

If we want to tackle Ukip lets face up to the problems of their actual policies rather than trying to smear them with a 'neo-nazi' tag which really just prevents constructing any meaningful opposition to Ukip.

Another brilliant balanced post MTVN.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Withano

Deluded or correct?

I knew that's why I hate the parties in the UK, they're all Authoritarian nearly.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Apart of right wing policies is the privatisation of everything.

Not true Mock. There is nothing at all wrong with advocating certain private Health Care Policies which people can elect to enrol in if they can afford it - it alleviates the burden on the NHS. There may be nothing wrong either in tendering out to private contractors certain non-medical elements of the NHS - as long as the contracting process is overseen to be scrupulous and the successful bids are cost effective.

There is too much institutional corruption in the NHS and far too many bureaucrats on £100K pa or more.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

IF UKIP Were ever to attain power and ever try to privatise the NHS or try to dismantle it, I will give EVERY penny I have to Joey Steel to donate to the Labour Party campaign fund - THAT's how confident I am that talk of them doing so is propaganda.

Drat, you almost promise me every penny you have when you know it will not come about.

I will concede that Nigel Farage leading UKIP,now likely will not desire to move to private healthcare.
My worry remains that in any dealing with the Conservatives,he may agree to their hidden agenda in order to get other things.
I do also still have anxieties as to what other UKIP candidates really feel too

For me at this time, it is the Conservatives in my view, who present the real dangers to the NHS and its founding principles.

There is the 'shelved' extreme part of the re-organsation,which they couldn't get through with Lib Dem support, that will I feel for sure be brought back into play again, and I think that part of the re-organisation would have extended private involvement to a greater scale in the NHS.

Then that opens the door to even more, 'introduction' of more privatisation.
I have not a single ounce of trust in the Conservatives under David Cameron to protect the NHS.

I'd rather you keep your money Kirk,
I would rather the Conservatives under David Cameron were not trusted and not given 5 more years of running the NHS.
I will campaign right to the last minute,with all my energy, hoping to even persuade just one person thinking of trusting them with it and turning them off doing so.
Thankfully,a lot of people I have talked to this last week, only need the gentle reminder that he promised no top down re-organisation and then did it,to get them thinking again.

For me, that speaks volumes negatively about him,how such a policy, not in his manifesto, not in the Lib Dem manifesto and then promised by him to never be going to be done,not presented to the voters and no voter having the chance to vote for it either,how that could in any way come to be part of a coalition agreement is totally beyond me.

If he can be as devious and misleading as that, on that policy and the way he got it enacted too, one can be understandably left wondering what other things he really should not, and indeed cannot, be trusted on too.