[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not sure what your point is there, either. That just makes it worse? Not to go all Godwin or anything (and I am genuinely not comparing the two men, only the sentiment) - a large swathe (a decent majority) of Germans were happy with Hitler.

And countless other examples of populations being "happy with" horrendous leaders. At least at the point of putting them in power.

I find the sweeping "that's just democracy innit" idea a bit meaningless. A bad decision is a bad decision.

Exactly. Because he may actually win the election (fingers crossed not) then we should not say that we think he's revolting, sexist, racist pig?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not sure what your point is there, either. That just makes it worse? Not to go all Godwin or anything (and I am genuinely not comparing the two men, only the sentiment) - a large swathe (a decent majority) of Germans were happy with Hitler.

And countless other examples of populations being "happy with" horrendous leaders. At least at the point of putting them in power.

I find the sweeping "that's just democracy innit" idea a bit meaningless. A bad decision is a bad decision.

Yes that is just grand TS and I get you dont like him or agree with those who support him but dont think that you are right in your summary, you just dont share others opinion of him.

YOU may think he is xyz but my point is others dont and just because you are outraged, angry or convinced that does not make you or anyone on here right.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Yes that is just grand TS and I get you dont like him or agree with those who support him but dont think that you are right in your summary, you just dont share others opinion of him.

YOU may think he is xyz but my point is others dont and just because you are outraged, angry or convinced that does not make you or anyone on here right.

he's even losing the support of the Republicans...that speaks volumes

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Yes that is just grand TS and I get you dont like him or agree with those who support him but dont think that you are right in your summary, you just dont share others opinion of him.

YOU may think he is xyz but my point is others dont and just because you are outraged, angry or convinced that does not make you or anyone on here right.

Sorry LT, I don't buy into the notion that my opinion isn't more rational, valid or right than a bunch of sexist, racist, hooting and hollering hicks and rednecks. I feel sort of bad for you if you genuinely believe that "everyone's" opinion is as right or valid as your own. I mean come on.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Sorry LT, I don't buy into the notion that my opinion isn't more rational, valid or right than a bunch of sexist, racist, hooting and hollering hicks and rednecks. I feel sort of bad for you if you genuinely believe that "everyone's" opinion is as right or valid as your own. I mean come on.

and there we have it...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

and there we have it...

There we have what? You're expecting me to believe that you don't believe your own opinion to be more right than anyone else's. It's nonsense . It so much nonsense that it practically nullifies the definition OF an opinion. If you don't believe it to be true then it is NOT your opinion.

[Crimson Dynamo]

keep digging TS and you will get there...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

keep digging TS and you will get there...

If you're alluding to the fact that "everyone believes they are right" then yeah that's true too, but that still doesn't mean that some people's opinions, that they fully believe, aren't just straight up incorrect.

Like, you hold the entirely invalid opinion that suede isn't leather . Just goes to show that some opinions are BS, right?

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

There is no justification for this kind of talk ever. It's not even locker room talk like some have said in here. Now pigs are using Kylie Jenner's underwear selfie to say see can you blame men when young women are out there objectifying themselves demanding attention. A woman can pose naked it still doesn't mean she wants to be grabbed without consent!


Having said that I hate the Kartrashians!

[Maru]

The logic of a many Trump supporters here doesn't really have anything to do with principles as much as it has to do with having a voice in change... they're fed into the mainstream narrative that has taken hold of the country and has left behind other people who feel the current establishment doesn't recognize the US they knew and loved.

That said, anytime you take advantage of a disenfranchised base, you'll often find that they will overlook even the most obvious red flags (because everyone has skeletons in their closet is the logic) to get the result that they think they want... that would happen in any country or population.

This internet has the same type of followers from both sides... who hang onto ideals and ignore any red flags as some sort way out of the paranoia, anger and disillusionment they feel.

In the US, the past 4-5 generations have been taught repeatedly through society and mainstream media that hypocrisy is OK in a culture where the proudest and loudest voices are the ones who create the most effect and form the majority...

Many people's ideologies and belief systems here are shaped by Christian thinking, even if they are not religious, and the problem there is that it has helped form many of the same pro-sexist/pro-ethnocentric views that we have started to reject.

The Conservative movement per the Republican party has never really been about "traditional values" as much as it's been about stubbornly resisting change. What we found out out over many generations unfortunately is that the old modes of thinking have had terrible effects on society, including promoting pro-sexist, pro-ethnocentric, anti-gay thinking... society has changed and many people accept this, but at a government level, people are resistant to change because it's been plugged and pounded into them for the last few generations by the media (which is ironically liberal) to be disillusioned by things that aren't familiar, that they don't recognize. Still, this country was formed on liberal ideas (Classic liberalism).

I would be more concerned if this country all agreed on pro-sexist, pro-ethnocentric views... but what has happened to the US for as long as I've been alive, as that it used to be stay the same, stay the same, stay the same... America is great... somewhere in the past 10-15 years the tone changed and many people became very paranoid and disillusioned with these movements that went against this rhythm because for a long time it was pounded in our heads that this was what made us great (our prior status quo). Moreover, our culture, constitution and our history has been taught to fear the government and to ever paranoid of it's movements and distrust non-transparency (Keep in mind, Hillary is very secretive and this goes against the fabric of our nation)...

For that reason, it's not surprising that in times of great change that we have groups who disagree with how we should proceed. We are a competitive society when it comes to our opinions, no matter how big or small. The difference is the bar has been lowered to a point that now literally a monkey with a typewriter with great branding and catchy quotes can run for president and get away with it... as long as it's willing to take one for the team against the media because none of these people want their movement to go quiet (remember what I said about loudest and proudest)... it would mean death, a political "all stop" for their movement(s) in American culturally terms... this is why many people hang on despite the hypocrisy.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Maru

The logic of a many Trump supporters here doesn't really have anything to do with principles as much as it has to do with having a voice in change... they're fed into the mainstream narrative that has taken hold of the country and has left behind other people who feel the current establishment doesn't recognize the US they knew and loved.

That said, anytime you take advantage of a disenfranchised base, you'll often find that they will overlook even the most obvious red flags (because everyone has skeletons in their closet is the logic) to get the result that they think they want... that would happen in any country or population.

This internet has the same type of followers from both sides... who hang onto ideals and ignore any red flags as some sort way out of the paranoia, anger and disillusionment they feel.

In the US, the past 4-5 generations have been taught repeatedly through society and mainstream media that hypocrisy is OK in a culture where the proudest and loudest voices are the ones who create the most effect and form the majority...

Many people's ideologies and belief systems here are shaped by Christian thinking, even if they are not religious, and the problem there is that it has helped form many of the same pro-sexist/pro-ethnocentric views that we have started to reject.

The Conservative movement per the Republican party has never really been about "traditional values" as much as it's been about stubbornly resisting change. What we found out out over many generations unfortunately is that the old modes of thinking have had terrible effects on society, including promoting pro-sexist, pro-ethnocentric, anti-gay thinking... society has changed and many people accept this, but at a government level, people are resistant to change because it's been plugged and pounded into them for the last few generations by the media (which is ironically liberal) to be disillusioned by things that aren't familiar, that they don't recognize. Still, this country was formed on liberal ideas (Classic liberalism).

I would be more concerned if this country all agreed on pro-sexist, pro-ethnocentric views... but what has happened to the US for as long as I've been alive, as that it used to be stay the same, stay the same, stay the same... America is great... somewhere in the past 10-15 years the tone changed and many people became very paranoid and disillusioned with these movements that went against this rhythm because for a long time it was pounded in our heads that this was what made us great (our prior status quo). Moreover, our culture, constitution and our history has been taught to fear the government and to ever paranoid of it's movements and distrust non-transparency (Keep in mind, Hillary is very secretive and this goes against the fabric of our nation)...

For that reason, it's not surprising that in times of great change that we have groups who disagree with how we should proceed. We are a competitive society when it comes to our opinions, no matter how big or small. The difference is the bar has been lowered to a point that now literally a monkey with a typewriter with great branding and catchy quotes can run for president and get away with it... as long as it's willing to take one for the team against the media because none of these people want their movement to go quiet (remember what I said about loudest and proudest)... it would mean death, a political "all stop" for their movement(s) in American culturally terms... this is why many people hang on despite the hypocrisy.

Sometimes you need to vote for Trump to get change down the line, regardless of who or what he is, voting for clinton wont do that

so on the whole I agree, people are getting way, way to stuck on him as a person and not seeing the longer game

[bots]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Sometimes you need to vote for Trump to get change down the line, regardless of who or what he is, voting for clinton wont do that

so on the whole I agree, people are getting way, way to stuck on him as a person and not seeing the longer game

The way I look at it, if Clinton wins, its just moving the problem by 4/8 years, by which time, people will be even more desperate for change and end up putting in a real extremist. Trump has many faults, but in the general scheme of things, in a quick 4 year stint, he would be pretty powerless to do anything. Obama hasn't been able to achieve anything with the full weight of the establishment behind him, Trump has no chance

[Johnnyuk123]

Interesting......

Youtube video

[Crimson Dynamo]

Trump really buried Clinton


That was brutal

[bots]

Don't think its particularly interesting that both Trump and Clinton are nasty people, we already knew it

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Don't think its particularly interesting that both Trump and Clinton are nasty people, we already knew it

and Obamha seems a nice chap and as was said, he did pretty much feck all or was allowed to


The one thing he cared deeply about was the gun thing and he could do zip on that

[Johnnyuk123]

The truth about Hillary...

Youtube video

[Jamie89]

I found it interesting that when defending himself during the last debate he brushed off what he said as being only words. Then he went on to attack Hillary for the way she spoke about Trump supporters and how disgusted he was by her comments. He's so clueless to his own hypocrisy it's unreal.

Originally Posted by Niamh.

he's even losing the support of the Republicans...that speaks volumes

I was talking to an American today about the whole Trump/Hillary thing and he said the "choose your country over your party" attitude is really catching on, and that most of the Republicans he knows are planning to vote for Hillary, because they fear more the prospect of Trump being in charge, even if it means the party they support suffers. (Funnily enough we had this chat in a locker room )

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Lets face it.The type of women that have hung around Trump all his life are the type of women who will drop to their knees or drop their knickers at one sniff of a dollar bill.It's no wonder his view of women is the way it is.He's learned from first hand experience.It's just that not all women are like the sort he's used to and his view doesn't translate well outside his bubble.

Isn't he a business man? Will he not have spent time with many professional women too over the years? (as well as the women in his life that Kizzy mentioned). And if he really has led such a sheltered life that his view on half the worlds population is skewed to the point of considering assault against them perfectly acceptable then the last thing he should be put in charge of is a country.

Originally Posted by the truth

The priorities of this debate and so many killay fans is mindboggling? This irrelevant drivel of trump talking nonsense to kill time in a bus, is seen as more important than discussing the 1 million dead iraqis in the illegal war hillary voted for?

I mean who hasn't resorted to the trivialisation of sexual abuse against women when needing to kill time on bus journeys
This is a relevant issue because it shows the kind of person he is, and that he holds views that go against what are supposedly the views of the American nation. Considering he wants to become the representative of that nation, how is it anything but extremely relevant? It shouldn't be shut down simply because there are issues with Hillary too (there's nothing stopping anyone making threads about the things she's done).

[James]

American conservative writer PJ O'Rourke on Newsnight the other night. He's voting for Hillary, despite thinking she is wrong on almost everything.

Youtube video

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I found it interesting that when defending himself during the last debate he brushed off what he said as being only words. Then he went on to attack Hillary for the way she spoke about Trump supporters and how disgusted he was by her comments. He's so clueless to his own hypocrisy it's unreal.



I was talking to an American today about the whole Trump/Hillary thing and he said the "choose your country over your party" attitude is really catching on, and that most of the Republicans he knows are planning to vote for Hillary, because they fear more the prospect of Trump being in charge, even if it means the party they support suffers. (Funnily enough we had this chat in a locker room )



Isn't he a business man? Will he not have spent time with many professional women too over the years? (as well as the women in his life that Kizzy mentioned). And if he really has led such a sheltered life that his view on half the worlds population is skewed to the point of considering assault against them perfectly acceptable then the last thing he should be put in charge of is a country.



I mean who hasn't resorted to the trivialisation of sexual abuse against women when needing to kill time on bus journeys
This is a relevant issue because it shows the kind of person he is, and that he holds views that go against what are supposedly the views of the American nation. Considering he wants to become the representative of that nation, how is it anything but extremely relevant? It shouldn't be shut down simply because there are issues with Hillary too (there's nothing stopping anyone making threads about the things she's done).

"This is a relevant issue because it shows the kind of person he is, and that he holds views that go against what are supposedly the views of the American nation."


Ok then by that token the American people should be given a salacious private convo from Clinton to dissect?


will they

No

why

The american Press do not support Trump largely so they wont find any


Anyone who makes a judgement on a none of their business private conversation is not taking their democratic duty seriously

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I found it interesting that when defending himself during the last debate he brushed off what he said as being only words. Then he went on to attack Hillary for the way she spoke about Trump supporters and how disgusted he was by her comments. He's so clueless to his own hypocrisy it's unreal.



I was talking to an American today about the whole Trump/Hillary thing and he said the "choose your country over your party" attitude is really catching on, and that most of the Republicans he knows are planning to vote for Hillary, because they fear more the prospect of Trump being in charge, even if it means the party they support suffers. (Funnily enough we had this chat in a locker room )



Isn't he a business man? Will he not have spent time with many professional women too over the years? (as well as the women in his life that Kizzy mentioned). And if he really has led such a sheltered life that his view on half the worlds population is skewed to the point of considering assault against them perfectly acceptable then the last thing he should be put in charge of is a country.



I mean who hasn't resorted to the trivialisation of sexual abuse against women when needing to kill time on bus journeys
This is a relevant issue because it shows the kind of person he is, and that he holds views that go against what are supposedly the views of the American nation. Considering he wants to become the representative of that nation, how is it anything but extremely relevant? It shouldn't be shut down simply because there are issues with Hillary too (there's nothing stopping anyone making threads about the things she's done).

its just words and he clearly doesnt act on these words....no one has ever accused trump of grabbing their private parts against their consent and he has never been charged with anything. I agree its absurd and obscene words thugh Im sure everyone has heard far words...its only words in this case,not action...meanwhile killary has the blood of 1 million innocent iraqis on her hands ...before we even accou t for her disasters in benghazi, libya, syria, etc if you want to look at dangerous words, hows about her suggesting her race with obama wasnt over as previous candidates had been assassinated

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by the truth

its just words and he clearly doesnt act on these words....no one has ever accused trump of grabbing their private parts against their consent and he has never been charged with anything. I agree its absurd and obscene words thugh Im sure everyone has heard far words...its only words in this case,not action...meanwhile killary has the blood of 1 million innocent iraqis on her hands ...before we even accou t for her disasters in benghazi, libya, syria, etc if you want to look at dangerous words, hows about her suggesting her race with obama wasnt over as previous candidates had been assassinated

you are wasting your time truth

logic and reason is not called for here, lets just all hate on Trump and get the pitchforks

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"This is a relevant issue because it shows the kind of person he is, and that he holds views that go against what are supposedly the views of the American nation."


Ok then by that token the American people should be given a salacious private convo from Clinton to dissect?


will they

No

why

The american Press do not support Trump largely so they wont find any


Anyone who makes a judgement on a none of their business private conversation is not taking their democratic duty seriously

Poor Trump the victim being picked on by the media? I don't blame the media for reporting it, and the 'what if we knew all of Hillary's private conversations' argument is just a distraction. We DO know about this conversation, and people are going to judge him for it. There's nothing undemocratic about that. It wasn't private, the fact that he thought it was doesn't change that people know about it, and as a result know how he feels about women, so of course they will judge him on it given the content.

Originally Posted by the truth

its just words and he clearly doesnt act on these words....no one has ever accused trump of grabbing their private parts against their consent and he has never been charged with anything. I agree its absurd and obscene words thugh Im sure everyone has heard far words...its only words in this case,not action...meanwhile killary has the blood of 1 million innocent iraqis on her hands ...before we even accou t for her disasters in benghazi, libya, syria, etc if you want to look at dangerous words, hows about her suggesting her race with obama wasnt over as previous candidates had been assassinated

Noone's saying he has actually done those things, it's his attitude that people have a problem with. And again, issues to do with Hillary can be discussed too, it doesn't stop this being an issue.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Poor Trump the victim being picked on by the media? I don't blame the media for reporting it, and the 'what if we knew all of Hillary's private conversations' argument is just a distraction. We DO know about this conversation, and people are going to judge him for it. There's nothing undemocratic about that. It wasn't private, the fact that he thought it was doesn't change that people know about it, and as a result know how he feels about women, so of course they will judge him on it given the content.



Noone's saying he has actually done those things, it's his attitude that people have a problem with. And again, issues to do with Hillary can be discussed too, it doesn't stop this being an issue.

"It wasn't private"

sorry what on gods earth are you on about?

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

you are wasting your time truth

logic and reason is not called for here, lets just all hate on Trump and get the pitchforks

Sure.... logic an reason can now be used to justify discussing rapey sexual assault as if they are everyday acceptable behaviours.
There is locker room talk...and then there is keen insight into how men view women in society. Private or not....this speaks to how Trump views women....and that is not a good thing for the next leader of the free world