[GoldHeart]

The " Jesus juice " was another ridiculous fantasy made up . it was later revealed that kids broke into Mj's cellar and helped themselves to wine .

[Beso]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

The " Jesus juice " was another ridiculous fantasy made up . it was later revealed that kids broke into Mj's cellar and helped themselves to wine .

There is no way the little boys sneeked past all those security cameras..

[Beso]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

The " Jesus juice " was another ridiculous fantasy made up . it was later revealed that kids broke into Mj's cellar and helped themselves to wine .

He was quite the manipulator and master paedophile. ..force feeding the kids the jesus juice and turning them into children that ended up loving his abuse so much they turned alcoholic. Addicted to the only drug that made them tolerate the life they had been dealt.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by parmnion

He was quite the manipulator and master paedophile. ..force feeding the kids the jesus juice and turning them into children that ended up loving his abuse so much they turned alcoholic. Addicted to the only drug that made them tolerate the life they had been dealt.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

This is going to sound sarcastic, but please believe me, it isn't but IF some irrefutable evidence came out to prove MJ did have sexual relationships with these or other boys, would you guys then condemn him or still believe, as Streisand obviously does, that his upbringing were to blame and so in some way his actions can be excused?

Can you answer this? I only ask after a discussion I had with another MJ fan....am interested.if their opinion is shared amongst other fans / supporters

[Beso]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Sounds ridiculous to you don't it

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

This is going to sound sarcastic, but please believe me, it isn't but IF some irrefutable evidence came out to prove MJ did have sexual relationships with these or other boys, would you guys then condemn him or still believe, as Streisand obviously does, that his upbringing were to blame and so in some way his actions can be excused?

But... they don't believe that he did. So if some irrefutable evidence came out then that would be it.

When discussing his own upbringing, I've only ever seen people use it to understand or explain his behaviour, never excuse it.

[GoldHeart]

Fans and other people just want evidence , Leaving Neverland is propaganda to shock the viewers and to play on their emotions.

I could make UP a graphic traumatic story up right now but doesn't make it FACT.

Old tabloid fantasy stories are being dug up on MJ that were debunked, the FBI & Tom Sneddon has it in for MJ for years .

If any of these ridiculous rumours were true about MJ they would of indited him , as the saying goes
'even a ham sandwich can get indited '.

[thesheriff443]

Famous or unknown, no one is beyond question and if as a grown man you want young boys to sleep in your bedroom it will raise questions.

No one is stopping anyone listening to his music it’s just not being played on the bbc.

This story has not and may never come to a close but life goes on regardless.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Famous or unknown, no one is beyond question and if as a grown man you want young boys to sleep in your bedroom it will raise questions.

No one is stopping anyone listening to his music it’s just not being played on the bbc.

This story has not and may never come to a close but life goes on regardless.

Its not just the BBC , h&m decided to remove his clothing while they continue to sell rock star clothing who have been rumoured to sleep with underage girls.

Starbucks stopped playing his music , Simpsons got rid of his episode and accused him of "grooming" . And i think Spotify removed him aswell .

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

But... they don't believe that he did. So if some irrefutable evidence came out then that would be it.

When discussing his own upbringing, I've only ever seen people use it to understand or explain his behaviour, never excuse it.

Which is why I asked the question

For some fans its wouldn't be "it". My friend is a lifelong MJ fan and defender and he said even if photographic/ video evidence came out, although it would dent his adoration, he would still attribute the main blame on mjs upbringing, which to me, personally is abhorrent as he was an adult but I wanted to see if other MJ fans felt the same or if they felt the way that I did??

As I said it was not a sarcastic or baiting question, it was a legitimate question without judgement. I am just interested, although the fact that after twice asking no-one but you has answered tells me one of two things, either I am on ignore, or its an uncomfortable question for his fans

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Which is why I asked the question

For some fans its wouldn't be "it". My friend is a lifelong MJ fan and defender and he said even if photographic/ video evidence came out, although it would dent his adoration, he would still attribute the main blame on mjs upbringing, which to me, personally is abhorrent as he was an adult but I wanted to see if other MJ fans felt the same or if they felt the way that I did??

As I said it was not a sarcastic, it was a legitimate question without judgement.

I don't believe MJ is guilty and many other people feel the same way, we want proper evidence that's all coherent stories of the alleged abuse.

There's too many inconsistencies and contradictions . So yes although there's probably SOME fans out there that will never accept MJ might be guilty there's other people who just can't see him as a child molester as it doesn't fit together , plus he was investigated for a long time and was found innocent.

And finding MJ strange and child like doesn't automatically mean he abused kids. But i think he made poor decisions through naivety . I also think his upbringing had alot to do with it . He was a mega star and one of the biggest targets for extortion scams .

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Which is why I asked the question

For some fans its wouldn't be "it". My friend is a lifelong MJ fan and defender and he said even if photographic/ video evidence came out, although it would dent his adoration, he would still attribute the main blame on mjs upbringing, which to me, personally is abhorrent as he was an adult but I wanted to see if other MJ fans felt the same or if they felt the way that I did??

As I said it was not a sarcastic or baiting question, it was a legitimate question without judgement. I am just interested, although the fact that after twice asking no-one but you has answered tells me one of two things, either I am on ignore, or its an uncomfortable question for his fans

I thought you meant if irrefutable evidence came out would his fans still be defending him as innocent.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

I don't believe MJ is guilty and many other people feel the same way, we want proper evidence that's all coherent stories of the alleged abuse.

There's too many inconsistencies and contradictions . So yes although there's probably SOME fans out there that will never accept MJ might be guilty there's other people who just can't see him as a child molester as it doesn't fit together , plus he was investigated for a long time and was found innocent.

And finding MJ strange and child like doesn't automatically mean he abused kids. But i think he made poor decisions through naivety . I also think his upbringing had alot to do with it . He was a mega star and one of the biggest targets for extortion scams .

I understand that but its not the question I have asked, twice.

What if there were irrefutable evidence, what would your stance be then? Read back for full question as its late and ive quoted it twice

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I thought you meant if irrefutable evidence came out would his fans still be defending him as innocent.

No, not at all....my friend said he said it still wouldn't be MJs fault if he had molested those kids as he hadn't had the chance to mature emotionally or sexually due to his upbringing

At that point I had to walk away

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Its not just the BBC , h&m decided to remove his clothing while they continue to sell rock star clothing who have been rumoured to sleep with underage girls.



Starbucks stopped playing his music , Simpsons got rid of his episode and accused him of "grooming" . And i think Spotify removed him aswell .

The BBC haven't actually stopped playing his music

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I understand that but its not the question I have asked, twice.

What if there were irrefutable evidence, what would your stance be then? Read back for full question as its late and ive quoted it twice

I would honestly be devastated , like many other people . It's a difficult one really .

I was a Lost Prophets fan before it was revealed the lead singer was a paedophile , i was shocked and felt disgusted as i didn't see it coming. I stopped listening to their music .

Some people can separate the artist from the music , there's people out there that think MJ is guilty but they DON'T want his music to be muted and they'll STILL happily listen to his music .

It depends how strongly you feel , obviously anything to do with violence & abuse can completely change things regarding how you feel about that person . But celebrities get cancelled all the time and people are very fickle.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

No, not at all....my friend said he said it still wouldn't be MJs fault if he had molested those kids as he hadn't had the chance to mature emotionally or sexually due to his upbringing

At that point I had to walk away

You know the answer really. Some would condemn him but some wouldn't. I'd imagine it would also depend on the evidence.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Which is why I asked the question

For some fans its wouldn't be "it". My friend is a lifelong MJ fan and defender and he said even if photographic/ video evidence came out, although it would dent his adoration, he would still attribute the main blame on mjs upbringing, which to me, personally is abhorrent as he was an adult but I wanted to see if other MJ fans felt the same or if they felt the way that I did??

As I said it was not a sarcastic or baiting question, it was a legitimate question without judgement. I am just interested, although the fact that after twice asking no-one but you has answered tells me one of two things, either I am on ignore, or its an uncomfortable question for his fans

I just don't get how anyone could just blindly excuse someone because they're famous and they admire their career. I was in fact faced with that dilemma myself recently and I went off this particular "hero" of mine instantly

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I just don't get how anyone could just blindly excuse someone because they're famous and they admire their career. I was in fact faced with that dilemma myself recently and I went off this particular "hero" of mine instantly

It's not quite the same, but Richard Wagner, a famous composer, was a virulent antisemite. Yet many Jewish musicians, conductors and fans continue admiring his music. Stephen Fry, who is half-Jewish, said that he couldn't imagine life without Wagner's operas even though he knows Wagner's views on people like him.
I think if somebody is a genius people are more willing to separate things.
I'm not saying it's right, but it happens.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

It's not quite the same, but Richard Wagner, a famous composer, was a virulent antisemite. Yet many Jewish musicians, conductors and fans continue admiring his music. Stephen Fry, who is half-Jewish, said that he couldn't imagine life without Wagner's operas even though he knows Wagner's views on people like him.

I think if somebody is a genius people are more willing to separate things.

I'm not saying it's right, but it happens.

Appreciating someone's work and still appreciating that person as a person are different though

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Appreciating someone's work and still appreciating that person as a person are different though

Depends what the person has done.

I stopped listening to Lost Prophets because of the lead Singer .

But as I previously said some can separate the art from the person.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Appreciating someone's work and still appreciating that person as a person are different though

I probably misunderstood your question.
I thought you meant going off a person as also going off their work or being unable to enjoy it anymore.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I probably misunderstood your question.

I thought you meant going off a person as also going off their work or being unable to enjoy it anymore.

I would say it would probably taint that enjoyment, for me anyway, but you could still appreciate the fact that it was good or great

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I just don't get how anyone could just blindly excuse someone because they're famous and they admire their career. I was in fact faced with that dilemma myself recently and I went off this particular "hero" of mine instantly

But Annie's point was about them absolving him of blame due to his upbringing, not his work.