[Candy Annie Cane]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

But... they don't believe that he did. So if some irrefutable evidence came out then that would be it.

When discussing his own upbringing, I've only ever seen people use it to understand or explain his behaviour, never excuse it.

Which is why I asked the question

For some fans its wouldn't be "it". My friend is a lifelong MJ fan and defender and he said even if photographic/ video evidence came out, although it would dent his adoration, he would still attribute the main blame on mjs upbringing, which to me, personally is abhorrent as he was an adult but I wanted to see if other MJ fans felt the same or if they felt the way that I did??

As I said it was not a sarcastic or baiting question, it was a legitimate question without judgement. I am just interested, although the fact that after twice asking no-one but you has answered tells me one of two things, either I am on ignore, or its an uncomfortable question for his fans

[Christmas Lights]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Which is why I asked the question

For some fans its wouldn't be "it". My friend is a lifelong MJ fan and defender and he said even if photographic/ video evidence came out, although it would dent his adoration, he would still attribute the main blame on mjs upbringing, which to me, personally is abhorrent as he was an adult but I wanted to see if other MJ fans felt the same or if they felt the way that I did??

As I said it was not a sarcastic, it was a legitimate question without judgement.

I don't believe MJ is guilty and many other people feel the same way, we want proper evidence that's all coherent stories of the alleged abuse.

There's too many inconsistencies and contradictions . So yes although there's probably SOME fans out there that will never accept MJ might be guilty there's other people who just can't see him as a child molester as it doesn't fit together , plus he was investigated for a long time and was found innocent.

And finding MJ strange and child like doesn't automatically mean he abused kids. But i think he made poor decisions through naivety . I also think his upbringing had alot to do with it . He was a mega star and one of the biggest targets for extortion scams .

[Candy Annie Cane]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

I don't believe MJ is guilty and many other people feel the same way, we want proper evidence that's all coherent stories of the alleged abuse.

There's too many inconsistencies and contradictions . So yes although there's probably SOME fans out there that will never accept MJ might be guilty there's other people who just can't see him as a child molester as it doesn't fit together , plus he was investigated for a long time and was found innocent.

And finding MJ strange and child like doesn't automatically mean he abused kids. But i think he made poor decisions through naivety . I also think his upbringing had alot to do with it . He was a mega star and one of the biggest targets for extortion scams .

I understand that but its not the question I have asked, twice.

What if there were irrefutable evidence, what would your stance be then? Read back for full question as its late and ive quoted it twice

[Christmas Lights]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I understand that but its not the question I have asked, twice.

What if there were irrefutable evidence, what would your stance be then? Read back for full question as its late and ive quoted it twice

I would honestly be devastated , like many other people . It's a difficult one really .

I was a Lost Prophets fan before it was revealed the lead singer was a paedophile , i was shocked and felt disgusted as i didn't see it coming. I stopped listening to their music .

Some people can separate the artist from the music , there's people out there that think MJ is guilty but they DON'T want his music to be muted and they'll STILL happily listen to his music .

It depends how strongly you feel , obviously anything to do with violence & abuse can completely change things regarding how you feel about that person . But celebrities get cancelled all the time and people are very fickle.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Which is why I asked the question

For some fans its wouldn't be "it". My friend is a lifelong MJ fan and defender and he said even if photographic/ video evidence came out, although it would dent his adoration, he would still attribute the main blame on mjs upbringing, which to me, personally is abhorrent as he was an adult but I wanted to see if other MJ fans felt the same or if they felt the way that I did??

As I said it was not a sarcastic or baiting question, it was a legitimate question without judgement. I am just interested, although the fact that after twice asking no-one but you has answered tells me one of two things, either I am on ignore, or its an uncomfortable question for his fans

I thought you meant if irrefutable evidence came out would his fans still be defending him as innocent.

[Candy Annie Cane]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I thought you meant if irrefutable evidence came out would his fans still be defending him as innocent.

No, not at all....my friend said he said it still wouldn't be MJs fault if he had molested those kids as he hadn't had the chance to mature emotionally or sexually due to his upbringing

At that point I had to walk away

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

No, not at all....my friend said he said it still wouldn't be MJs fault if he had molested those kids as he hadn't had the chance to mature emotionally or sexually due to his upbringing

At that point I had to walk away

You know the answer really. Some would condemn him but some wouldn't. I'd imagine it would also depend on the evidence.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Which is why I asked the question

For some fans its wouldn't be "it". My friend is a lifelong MJ fan and defender and he said even if photographic/ video evidence came out, although it would dent his adoration, he would still attribute the main blame on mjs upbringing, which to me, personally is abhorrent as he was an adult but I wanted to see if other MJ fans felt the same or if they felt the way that I did??

As I said it was not a sarcastic or baiting question, it was a legitimate question without judgement. I am just interested, although the fact that after twice asking no-one but you has answered tells me one of two things, either I am on ignore, or its an uncomfortable question for his fans

I just don't get how anyone could just blindly excuse someone because they're famous and they admire their career. I was in fact faced with that dilemma myself recently and I went off this particular "hero" of mine instantly

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I just don't get how anyone could just blindly excuse someone because they're famous and they admire their career. I was in fact faced with that dilemma myself recently and I went off this particular "hero" of mine instantly

It's not quite the same, but Richard Wagner, a famous composer, was a virulent antisemite. Yet many Jewish musicians, conductors and fans continue admiring his music. Stephen Fry, who is half-Jewish, said that he couldn't imagine life without Wagner's operas even though he knows Wagner's views on people like him.
I think if somebody is a genius people are more willing to separate things.
I'm not saying it's right, but it happens.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

It's not quite the same, but Richard Wagner, a famous composer, was a virulent antisemite. Yet many Jewish musicians, conductors and fans continue admiring his music. Stephen Fry, who is half-Jewish, said that he couldn't imagine life without Wagner's operas even though he knows Wagner's views on people like him.

I think if somebody is a genius people are more willing to separate things.

I'm not saying it's right, but it happens.

Appreciating someone's work and still appreciating that person as a person are different though

[Christmas Lights]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Appreciating someone's work and still appreciating that person as a person are different though

Depends what the person has done.

I stopped listening to Lost Prophets because of the lead Singer .

But as I previously said some can separate the art from the person.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Appreciating someone's work and still appreciating that person as a person are different though

I probably misunderstood your question.
I thought you meant going off a person as also going off their work or being unable to enjoy it anymore.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I probably misunderstood your question.

I thought you meant going off a person as also going off their work or being unable to enjoy it anymore.

I would say it would probably taint that enjoyment, for me anyway, but you could still appreciate the fact that it was good or great

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I just don't get how anyone could just blindly excuse someone because they're famous and they admire their career. I was in fact faced with that dilemma myself recently and I went off this particular "hero" of mine instantly

But Annie's point was about them absolving him of blame due to his upbringing, not his work.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

But Annie's point was about them absolving him of blame due to his upbringing, not his work.

I know?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I know?

I said that because you said "absolve him because of his fame and career" not his upbringing.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I said that because you said "absolve him because of his fame and career" not his upbringing.

I was just moving on the conversation

[Christmas Lights]

It's as if we're not allowed to think MJ is innocent , and it's like we musn't question Wade & James despite the financial motivation & the dodgy backgrounds .

People call MJ "weird" & "manipulative" but what about Wade & James ? .Wade called himself "master of deception" , what kind of victim calls himself that? .

And if MJ was alive today I doubt they would of come forward claiming they'd been abused . As MJ would fight them on it & like with the 93 & 03 cases they'd fall to pieces due to all the inconsistencies & contradictions.By suing the estate after the man is dead they can't get challenged by him as he's not around to defend himself.

I honestly hope their appeal gets rejected. They're using Leaving Neverland as some kind of messed up insurance to back up their graphic insane stories because they have NO REAL PROOF !! .

[bots]

I never liked Jackson's music, i never liked Jackson, I always thought he was very dodgy, and being eccentric does not excuse anyone for preying on little kids. That being said, the guy is dead, he can do no more harm, so it's of no concern to me what other peoples view is of him and I really don't know what either side of the arguments hope to achieve by regurgitating stuff over and over again. In terms of world problems its about as low on the priority list as you could get.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I never liked Jackson's music, i never liked Jackson, I always thought he was very dodgy, and being eccentric does not excuse anyone for preying on little kids. That being said, the guy is dead, he can do no more harm, so it's of no concern to me what other peoples view is of him and I really don't know what either side of the arguments hope to achieve by regurgitating stuff over and over again. In terms of world problems its about as low on the priority list as you could get.

There's nothing to be gained by the public but there is plenty for his victims; bringing historic abuse out into the open can finally give closure and a sense of at least some sort of justice. Harbouring things like this unheard destroys lives.

My argument really has eff all to do with MJ, my "interest" in this or reason for continuing to argue against those who would vilify his accusers is that all victims of abuse should be able to share their story without being torn down and attacked for it. That is HUGELY important, whether the perpetrator is alive or dead.

I mean when it comes down to the story itself, my reaction has never been "what scum!" or "what an unforgivable paedo!" ... it's just "what an all around tragic and horrible story". Michael Jackson's life is a horror story and I don't know how anyone can deny that, even with ALL of the accusations out of the equation, he had an absolutely bizarre childhood, and adulthood, destroyed his face with surgery after surgery, and had terrible addiction problems that wound up killing him. He undeniably had SIGNIFICANT mental health problems, and a tragic part of that (in my belief) involved being sexually inappropriate with young boys. But his story is still a sad one in itself. Funnily enough - I get the strong impression that James Safechuck and especially Wade Robson themselves understand that.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's nothing to be gained by the public but there is plenty for his victims; bringing historic abuse out into the open can finally give closure and a sense of at least some sort of justice. Harbouring things like this unheard destroys lives.

My argument really has eff all to do with MJ, my "interest" in this or reason for continuing to argue against those who would vilify his accusers is that all victims of abuse should be able to share their story without being torn down and attacked for it. That is HUGELY important, whether the perpetrator is alive or dead.

I mean when it comes down to the story itself, my reaction has never been "what scum!" or "what an unforgivable paedo!" ... it's just "what an all around tragic and horrible story". Michael Jackson's life is a horror story and I don't know how anyone can deny that, even with ALL of the accusations out of the equation, he had an absolutely bizarre childhood, and adulthood, destroyed his face with surgery after surgery, and had terrible addiction problems that wound up killing him. He undeniably had SIGNIFICANT mental health problems, and a tragic part of that (in my belief) involved being sexually inappropriate with young boys. But his story is still a sad one in itself. Funnily enough - I get the strong impression that James Safechuck and especially Wade Robson themselves understand that.

but the people are not bringing anything into the open, there is nothing new in any of it. Jackson was who he was. Nothing is being achieved. Also, the more allegations that go on, the more it reduces the earning potential for his legacy, so the less money is going to be available for any "victims". It's all self-defeating

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I never liked Jackson's music, i never liked Jackson, I always thought he was very dodgy, and being eccentric does not excuse anyone for preying on little kids. That being said, the guy is dead, he can do no more harm, so it's of no concern to me what other peoples view is of him and I really don't know what either side of the arguments hope to achieve by regurgitating stuff over and over again. In terms of world problems its about as low on the priority list as you could get.

There is no excuse for taking away children innocence for your own self want and perversion

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I never liked Jackson's music, i never liked Jackson, I always thought he was very dodgy, and being eccentric does not excuse anyone for preying on little kids. That being said, the guy is dead, he can do no more harm, so it's of no concern to me what other peoples view is of him and I really don't know what either side of the arguments hope to achieve by regurgitating stuff over and over again. In terms of world problems its about as low on the priority list as you could get.

Who said being eccentric was an excuse for preying on little kids?

It seems "being eccentric" is being used in place of any evidence that he preyed on little kids.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It seems "being eccentric" is being used in place of any evidence that he preyed on little kids.

Well you know... that,
plus compulsively befriending a string of young boys,

and spending unusual amounts of time alone with those boys,

and having them sleep over at his house,

and getting them to look at adult images (even Feldman says this happened),

and more than one of those boys accusing him of being inappropriate at the time,

and then another two as adults saying he molested them,

oh and two or three others saying he wrote inappropriate letters or made inappropriate comments to them in phonecalls (NONE of which was in the doc to be dismissed as a money grab).


Little eccentric details like that.

But of course, let's continue to pretend that it's just two men out for cash and smear them as liars, rather than admitting that there are in total seven individuals who have made at least one comment that suggests the relationships were not just "innocent childhood" stuff.

[Nancy.]

So according to him, Safechuck was still being abused at 16 / 17 - which completely goes against their narrative in the movie. How many more times are their stories going to change?

This hole they've dug themselves into just keeps getting deeper and deeper.