[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

This is bad logic and not how safe guarding works. Women are at risk from predatory men, men who would use any loophole to get easy access to their victims. It's kind of like saying burglars will burgal anyway so no one should lock their houses or get an alarm.

The type of access you're giving men by allowing self ID (AKA allowing any man at all to simply say they are a woman) is access to women for example who are in prison and would have no way at all to remove themselves from a very dangerous situation should some rapist declare he's a woman upon his arrest.

What you're taking away from women and girls is the right to complain and raise the alarm if some creepy dude is hanging around the women's changing room but says "I'm a woman" when approached.

Yes predatory men will find victims but we don't make that easier for them and limit ways for women to make themselves safer. We don't allow them unrestricted access to women when they're at their very most vulnerable ie in a state of undress or unable to leave because it's a prison..

I do appreciate that POV, but why are Trans women being held responsible for the actions of cis men? Why are they having their own protections removed for the safety of others for which the perpetrators are not them? Why are they collateral damage?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I do appreciate that POV, but why are Trans women being held responsible for the actions of cis men? Why are they having their own protections removed for the safety of others for which the perpetrators are not them? Why are they collateral damage?

with all due respect it isn't women's responsibility either to give up our safe guards to shield transwomen from predatory men.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

with all due respect it isn't women's responsibility either to give up our safe guards to shield transwomen from predatory men.

You're right, but, as we've established, allowing Trans women to use women's bathrooms isn't sacrificing biological women's safety because trans women aren't at risk and any cis man who wants to attack a woman will do it anyway.

There isn't an epidemic of cis men cosplaying as women to attack women, the stats do not support it.

Between 2013 - 2023, the number of rape/sexual offences in the UK that took place in a public bathroom was 210 over a 10 year period. That's 21 cases a year. So approximately 0.010% of all cases. The effort is being concentrated in the wrong place.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by BBXX

You're right, but, as we've established, allowing Trans women to use women's bathrooms isn't sacrificing biological women's safety because trans women aren't at risk and any cis man who wants to attack a woman will do it anyway.

There isn't an epidemic of cis men cosplaying as women to attack women, the stats do not support it.

Between 2013 - 2023, the number of rape/sexual offences in the UK that took place in a public bathroom was 210 over a 10 year period. That's 21 cases a year. So approximately 0.010% of all cases. The effort is being concentrated in the wrong place.

The issue is there's not really anyway to tell which transwomen are genuine and which are not especially when you're talking about self ID. The whole point is they are all biological men and the way safeguarding works is to ban all men to protect women and girls.

Also you made a point in a previous post asking why transwomens protections are being removed for the safety of others, why is it OK for you to raise that as a point but when it's asked the other way round we're told women are going to be attacked anyway so what difference does it make to allow that safe guarding to be lowered

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Also you made a point in a previous post asking why transwomens protections are being removed for the safety of others, why is it OK for you to raise that as a point but when it's asked the other way round we're told women are going to be attacked anyway so what difference does it make to allow that safe guarding to be lowered

I raised it as a point because trans women are being made to take the responsibility for something they're not guilty of, so it's an unjust removal of rights and freedoms based on the actions of cis men.

I don't think I did say "what difference does it make to allow the safe guarding to be lowered", I said it won't make a difference to the safety of cis women because the people it's removing from the space aren't the perpetrators of what it is that is making women unsafe in those spaces.

If that's the comment you're referencing I don't see how one negates the other.

I think that's what you're referring to but I'll be honest I am tired now so I am not sure if I've misunderstood the comment you're referencing, feel free to quote the part you are questioning

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I raised it as a point because trans women are being made to take the responsibility for something they're not guilty of, so it's an unjust removal of rights and freedoms based on the actions of cis men.

I don't think I did say "what difference does it make to allow the safe guarding to be lowered", I said it won't make a difference to the safety of cis women because the people it's removing from the space aren't the perpetrators of what it is that is making women unsafe in those spaces.

If that's the comment you're referencing I don't see how one negates the other.

I think that's what you're referring to but I'll be honest I am tired now so I am not sure if I've misunderstood the comment you're referencing, feel free to quote the part you are questioning

Yes that's the comment I was refrencing.

I feel maybe we're going round in circles here because you're not accepting (I guess) that all biological men (this includes transwomen) are taking the responsibility for the "bad ones" and there is no way to know which ones aren't a danger to women and which are so they are all excluded.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yes that's the comment I was refrencing.

I feel maybe we're going round in circles here because you're not accepting (I guess) that all biological men (this includes transwomen) are taking the responsibility for the "bad ones" and there is no way to know which ones aren't a danger to women and which are so they are all excluded.

Fair enough. You are correct, I refuse to accept trans women are the same as cis men. I refuse even moreso when the subject is surrounding safety towards women and one group is safe and one group is not so much, and yet it's the safe group that is being persecuted as a way to protect women further, while the less safe group get to continue to live as they have been.

Appreciate the debate as always.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

with all due respect it isn't women's responsibility either to give up our safe guards to shield transwomen from predatory men.

Thank you

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I do appreciate that POV, but why are Trans women being held responsible for the actions of cis men? Why are they having their own protections removed for the safety of others for which the perpetrators are not them? Why are they collateral damage?

Women were expected to be the collateral damage for a teeny tiny percentage of the population who identify themselves as trans women, we were told to use the disabled toilets, that we didn't need to have penis free spaces even in domestic refuges, that we had to accept trans women who had gone through male puberty in womens sports, ...women represent over 50 per cent of the population, it is only right that womens spaces are protected do you not think? Whilst I agree trans women have a right to feel safe too, their rights do not take precedence over women and this includes lesbian women. I understand genuine transwomen will be upset over this judgement but it is the right call in my opinion even going on purely population

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Women were expected to be the collateral damage for a teeny tiny percentage of the population who identify themselves as trans women, we were told to use the disabled toilets, that we didn't need to have penis free spaces even in domestic refuges, that we had to accept trans women who had gone through male puberty in womens sports, ...women represent over 50 per cent of the population, it is only right that womens spaces are protected do you not think? Whilst I agree trans women have a right to feel safe too, their rights do not take precedence over women and this includes lesbian women. I understand genuine transwomen will be upset over this judgement but it is the right call in my opinion even going on purely population

I've covered most of this above really.

I do agree with you in terms of the sporting aspect, someone born a man who went through puberty and hasn't taken any medication, such as HRT, to reduce testosterone levels, etc... to fall more in line with a biological women's levels shouldn't be allowed to compete professionally.

But again it feels like there is such a heavy focus on something so minimal. In the US, out of 500,000 college athletes, about 10 of them are trans.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I do appreciate that POV, but why are Trans women being held responsible for the actions of cis men? Why are they having their own protections removed for the safety of others for which the perpetrators are not them? Why are they collateral damage?

Did you know that some rapists in the UK only get 4 years in Prison?

A bit of a wild tangent on my part I know, but it's crazy how little deterrent there actually is for rape in the UK.

Because I know that apparently some rape cases in the UK can go up to 19 years in Prison, but I do tend to hear about the 4 year ones than I ever do the 19.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Did you know that some rapists in the UK only get 4 years in Prison?

A bit of a wild tangent on my part I know, but it's crazy how little deterrent there actually is for rape in the UK.

Because I know that apparently some rape cases in the UK can go up to 19 years in Prison, but I do tend to hear about the 4 year ones than I ever do the 19.

Most rape cases get nothing at all

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Most rape cases get nothing at all

True enough.

But even when there is a guilty verdict, the rapist might only get 4 years in Prison.

Which in my view is a disgrace.