[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Locke.

Don't come in here calling people deluded we don't want this amazing thread getting locked.

Stop over-reacting with the drama - I was referring to the generalised overhype of Cher in respect of Will I Am's words on her - that's pretty deluded in my opinion. Get your facts right before coming on accusing people of things they didn't actually type.

The 2nd paragraph in my post ref Fergie was in direct opinion to the post concerned, not the 1st.

[Tom4784]

people are looking at her through hate tinged goggles. If you can't see how marketable she is then step out of the conversation, Whether you like her or not she's the type of artist that goes with the current taste of music and she's easily marketable. I'll be surprised if Will I Am gets a chance to sign her since I think Simon will snap her up.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Locke.

Over a million fans on Facebook. Diana Vickers was similar with her popularity and recently had a #1 album and single.

Over a million fans on facebook - yet they weren't enough of a fan each to pick up phones to vote to save her the last two weeks..... not much of a fan base then eh?

Looks like she's going to have to rely on the involvment of an already long established group - far senior to her in years - to mollycoddle her into getting finding some stardom.

The proof will be in the pudding - and you can guarantee that in a few years time - if she even lasts that long - she will be a non entity.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Snowball

Over a million fans on facebook - yet they weren't enough of a fan each to pick up phones to vote to save her the last two weeks..... not much of a fan base then eh?

Looks like she's going to have to rely on the involvment of an already long established group - far senior to her in years - to mollycoddle her into getting finding some stardom.

The proof will be in the pudding - and you can guarantee that in a few years time - if she even lasts that long - she will be a non entity.

They didn't save Diana either but oh look at her now, She's SUCH a flop...I know i've been raging about Matt all day but I gave him credit when he earns it. You can't see past your hate of her.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Prezzie

people are looking at her through hate tinged goggles. If you can't see how marketable she is then step out of the conversation, Whether you like her or not she's the type of artist that goes with the current taste of music and she's easily marketable. I'll be surprised if Will I Am gets a chance to sign her since I think Simon will snap her up.

and that Prezzie, is an person's perogative. She's not that marketable - otherwise she wouldn't have had to be saved time and time again thanks to the intervention of the judges. If she was as amazing as some seem to think she is on here, she'd have walked this - and clearly, she didn't.

That's the truth of the matter.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Prezzie

They didn't save Diana either but oh look at her now, She's SUCH a flop...I know i've been raging about Matt all day but I gave him credit when he earns it. You can't see past your hate of her.

I don't have to see past anything to keep you happy. !!!

I cannot stand the girl, she is exactly the type of youngster that this country doesn't need: a stroppy little diva, with not a great deal of talent, who thinks the world owes her a living. That's entirely my right to have that opinion and to voice it. It's that simple really.

If she had any real discerning talent, I'd cut her some slack. As it is, I don't believe she has.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Snowball

and that Prezzie, is an person's perogative. She's not that marketable - otherwise she wouldn't have had to be saved time and time again thanks to the intervention of the judges. If she was as amazing as some seem to think she is on here, she'd have walked this - and clearly, she didn't.

That's the truth of the matter.

Votes don't come into if someone's marketable or not and given that the demographics for the voting audience would consider Cher a 'Niche' act when she really isn't all that different to what's currently popular is telling of what they know.

She's marketable because she's already got an image and a style and she's made a good impression on the people who are gonna help her along the way and people who could feature on her songs and vice versa. She's one of the most written about acts this year and that's because she's interesting, media intrigue means more then votes since only one act is going to win the competition but they're not gonna be the only success. The only thing standing against her is public perception but it's easy to court controversy and change opinions look at most popstars today. The public opinion changes with whichever way the wind blows.

Voting matters only to the winner.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Snowball

I don't have to see past anything to keep you happy. !!!

I cannot stand the girl, she is exactly the type of youngerster that this country doesn't need: a stroppy little diva, with not a great deal of talent, who thinks the world owes her a living. That's entirely my right to have that opinion and to voice it. It's that simple really.

If she had any real discerning talent, I'd cut her some slack. As it is, I don't believe she has.

Because you're blind to your hate so that you can't see things from a balanced perspective.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Prezzie

Votes don't come into if someone's marketable or not and given that the demographics for the voting audience would consider Cher a 'Niche' act when she really isn't all that different to what's currently popular is telling of what they know.

She's marketable because she's already got an image and a style and she's made a good impression on the people who are gonna help her along the way and people who could feature on her songs and vice versa. She's one of the most written about acts this year and that's because she's interesting, media intrigue means more then votes since only one act is going to win the competition but they're not gonna be the only success. The only thing standing against her is public perception but it's easy to court controversy and change opinions look at most popstars today. The public opinion changes with whichever way the wind blows.

Voting matters only to the winner.

Demographics have not a lot to do with it Prezzie, you need to brush up on your marketing background work. I believe one person was quoted as saying there was a niche for her..... one person. If demographics came into it, her marketing 'niche' would have voted for her - and they didn't - why? Because she did not appeal to the demographic base to which she was targeted on a large enough scale as far as majority demographics go.

Her songs... oh, that's interesting. What songs have you heard her sing that she has written? I wait with baited interest. Oh wait... they'll all be rapping songs, absolutely no different from everything else that she sings, copying others in a style that's been around for around 40 years.

It is precisely public perception that will make or her break her, and as far as X Factor has gone, she lost. That's the bottom line - she didn't win. She might (along with all others who won't all win) get a recording contract, but mega stars a recording contract does not make.

Originally Posted by Prezzie

Because you're blind to your hate so that you can't see things from a balanced perspective.

Please try to abstain from insulting a forum member for no other reason than that they simply disagree with you and provide their reasons why.

My perception appears to be a little more finely tuned in that I have seen 'girls' like this come and go - most going very quickly down the tubes - and a lot more so that you will have, seeing as I have an age advantage over you.

As for votes only counting for the winner - funny, that's not what all the Cher fans have been saying on here week after week, when trying to muster up people to vote for her. So are you basically saying then, that every Cher fan on here who has acknowledged and made it clear that they have voted for her over the months have been fools in wasting their time and efforts in supporting Cher - because according to your words - they didn't need to vote?

It is abundantly clear that you are really annoyed that she didn't make it through to the final three, and are doing all you can to try to excuse that fact. She is not as popular as some people would like her to be. That's the heart of the matter.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Snowball

Demographics have not a lot to do with it Prezzie, you need to brush up on your marketing background work. I believe one person was quoted as saying there was a niche for her..... one person. If demographics came into it, her marketing 'niche' would have voted for her - and they didn't - why? Because she did not appeal to the demographic base to which she was targeted on a large enough scale as far as majority demographics go.

You need to brush up on what I actually said, you know maybe in future actually read my posts? I said that the demographics of the voting audience would have considered her a 'niche' act which is evidenced by the voting and her placing, she had a strong fanbase that allowed her to get this far but not win because she didn't get enough support from the casual public. So far, So Diana Vickers. If she appeals to so many little like you say she would she'd have gone out in the first few weeks but she didn't. Although she wouldn't be considered 'niche' in the real world she was a niche act within a demographic that considers Simon Cowell a god of music and Leona lewis the second coming.

Originally Posted by Snowball

Her songs... oh, that's interesting. What songs have you heard her sing that she has written? I wait with baited interest. Oh wait... they'll all be rapping songs, absolutely no different from everything else that she sings, copying others in a sytle that's been around for around 40 years.

What songs have any of them done? Yours is a stupid argument here so I'll not waste another moment on it. What I will say is that her 'rapping songs' are what's currently popular at the moment, Look at what's making an impat on the charts, it's all Tinie Tempah, Tinchy Strider, Dizzee Rascal ETC Given that she emulates that style and that she's already piqued the interest of people like that and record bosses. She's pretty much a ready made package that just needs a bit of fine tuning and a good catchy debut song.

Originally Posted by Snowball

It is precisely public perception that will make or her break here, and as far as X Factor has gone, she lost. That's the bottom line - she didn't win. She might (along with all others who won't all win) get a recording contract, but mega stars a recording contract does not make.

The public are idiots and malleable, They might not like her but they're interested given the amount of media attention that surrounds her and at the end of the day all publicity is good publicity and as long as she has the media attention the sheeplike public will follow. Most pop acts are divisive but that works in their favour. It's better to stir strong emotions in the public whether positive or negative rather then by viewed apathetically. If you are hated you can turn it around but if no one cares it's hard to make them listen.

On the subject of winning.....Oh yes because Joe McElderry and Leon Jackson became international didn't they? Winning the X factor only guarantees you a contract, not success. It's rapidly becoming known that you have a better chance of forging a good career if you don't win. I'm not calling any X factor contestant a megastar but if you look at the big stars they're all divisive they've got as many haters as they do fans because they stir that emotion in people. The Winners fail because people like them but they are rarely seen with the same energy as the successful runners up. Look at Alexandra & JLS. It's the same here. Matt will probably win but it's One Direction & Cher that'll profit because people care enough about them to hate/love them and that's what really matters.

Originally Posted by Snowball

Please try to abstain from insulting a forum member for no other reason than that they simply disagree with you and provide their reasons why.

...Are you really trying your little mini mod act with me? I didn't insult you, I said that you were blinded by your hate so that you couldn't see any possible pros with Cher which is completely true, it's an insight into you, not an insult and if you can't see that then you have no business taking the highroad with anyone so drop your little mini mod act since it'll get you nowhere with me.

Originally Posted by Snowball

My perception appears to be a little more finely tuned in that I have seen 'girls' like this come and go - most going very quickly down the tubes - and a lot more so that you will have, seeing as I have an age advantage over you.

Oh you're playing the age card, I can play that too, you're out of touch with today's youth, you've shown as much because even Cher's haters know that she'll have some success and you don't think she will because I reckon you know very little about the genre she'll go into. So thanks for playing the age card, you've given me a point there.

Originally Posted by Snowball

As for votes only counting for the winner - funny, that's not what all the Cher fans have been saying on here week after week, when trying to muster up people to vote for her. So are you basically saying then, that every Cher fan on here who has acknowledged and made it clear that they have voted for her over the months have been fools in wasting their time and efforts in supporting Cher - because according to your words - they didn't need to vote?

Smart fans know that she only needed to get into the final, anyone who really thought she could win was delusional. The further you get into the competition obviously the better chance you have at a career afterwards. She only needed to get this far as evidenced by the interest from Will.I.Am and the obvious intrigue from Simon Cowell.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Prezzie

You need to brush up on what I actually said, you know maybe in future actually read my posts? I said that the demographics of the voting audience would have considered her a 'niche' act which is evidenced by the voting and her placing, she had a strong fanbase that allowed her to get this far but not win because she didn't get enough support from the casual public. So far, So Diana Vickers. If she appeals to so many little like you say she would she'd have gone out in the first few weeks but she didn't. Although she wouldn't be considered 'niche' in the real world she was a niche act within a demographic that considers Simon Cowell a god of music and Leona lewis the second coming.


She did not have a strong demographic fanbase to get her this far. You seem to have forgotten that the judges were the ones who repeatedly saved her after being in the bottom two. That's hardly a strong demographic fanbase.

Diana Vickers didn't have to try to ride on the back of someone who was actually there with the mentor at the judges house, a mentor who has very strong connections with Will I Am. I suspect he is being more loyal to Cheryl, than Cher. Notwithstanding that - Diana did it alone - not needing to taken under the win of a group far older than herself. Cher needs back up that Diana didn't need.

What songs have any of them done? Yours is a stupid argument here so I'll not waste another moment on it. What I will say is that her 'rapping songs' are what's currently popular at the moment, Look at what's making an impat on the charts, it's all Tinie Tempah, Tinchy Strider, Dizzee Rascal ETC Given that she emulates that style and that she's already piqued the interest of people like that and record bosses. She's pretty much a ready made package that just needs a bit of fine tuning and a good catchy debut song.


YOU were the one who made mention of 'Cher's' songs - I asked what songs you were referring to - you couldn't answer because you have heard none that she has writte herself presumably? If you have, you would be able to have answered my question (on a point that you yourself raised). You raised the point, are unable to answer it, and can only now deflect by making comparisons to what songs the others have written - something I did not allude to.


The public are idiots and malleable, They might not like her but they're interested given the amount of media attention that surrounds her and at the end of the day all publicity is good publicity and as long as she has the media attention the sheeplike public will follow. Most pop acts are divisive but that works in their favour. It's better to stir strong emotions in the public whether positive or negative rather then by viewed apathetically. If you are hated you can turn it around but if no one cares it's hard to make them listen.

As has been evidenced with Cher, all publicity is not good publicity. It was much of the bad publicity that has lost her some of her fanbase, and did not bring her enough fan support to reach the final three. If even the bad publicity (along with your belief that she is something very special), the public would have not been swayed by any bad publicity. They were. I suspect for all the right reasons too.

On the subject of winning.....Oh yes because Joe McElderry and Leon Jackson became international didn't they? Winning the X factor only guarantees you a contract, not success. It's rapidly becoming known that you have a better chance of forging a good career if you don't win. I'm not calling any X factor contestant a megastar but if you look at the big stars they're all divisive they've got as many haters as they do fans because they stir that emotion in people. The Winners fail because people like them but they are rarely seen with the same energy as the successful runners up. Look at Alexandra & JLS. It's the same here. Matt will probably win but it's One Direction & Cher that'll profit because people care enough about them to hate/love them and that's what really matters

I am not disputing that only the winner will receive a recording contract - it's been the case now for years that that is not the case, so your point above is a moot one, in trying to defend what you said about 'votes don't count'. Clearly they do count, otherwise the contestants would not have reached the point in the competion that they have, without people voting. On that point therefore, you are wrong. Votes do indeed count.

As for your continuing 'hate' comments. I am not that emotionally atttached or involved, or do I know any of the contestants on a personal basis upon which to determine a level of dislike to reach hate - I dislike for a variety of reason. To hate, I'd say you would have to have some real emotional tie - again therefore, you are wrong. I don't hate. I do dislike - there is a difference.


...Are you really trying your little mini mod act with me? I didn't insult you, I said that you were blinded by your hate so that you couldn't see any possible pros with Cher which is completely true, it's an insight into you, not an insult and if you can't see that then you have no business taking the highroad with anyone so drop your little mini mod act since it'll get you nowhere with me.


No, you said that I was so blinded by hate that I could not have a balanced perception. That is an insult - simply because I disagree with your opinion. I simply see no pros in Cher. That's my right as an individual. You might not like that, but I'm afraid you will have to accept that as my opinion - of which I have a right to state.


I don't have to take the high road with anyone, there's simply no need for it. If anyone appears to be failing to maintain a reasonable temperment, it is you, rather than me. I suggest you rein in your temper (aka 'little mini mod act' - learn to perhaps be less rude) and have more constructive reasoned debate, rather than throwing what appears to be, little strops around the place here and fllinging insults to members. Why should I worry whether I 'get anywhere with you'? I am merely responding to a person on a forum.

Oh you're playing the age card, I can play that too, you're out of touch with today's youth, you've shown as much because even Cher's haters know that she'll have some success and you don't think she will because I reckon you know very little about the genre she'll go into. So thanks for playing the age card, you've given me a point there.

PMSL. This shows the level of maturity being displayed and shows with utmost clarity that there appears to be something in you that does not allow you to consider that there is a reason for my comment - not that I am out of touch - more than I've seen these acts come and go for a lot longer a time than you have. I could be wrong, I could be right - but what I do have, is the benefit of witnessing such things, that you don't have. That's hardly being out of touch.

Point scoring - ahhh... I see, I though this was a discussion - not some tit for tat, childish point scoring exercise . Yes I am older than you, that doesn't mean I am out of touch. I must be in the same 'out of touch' audience as those who claimed to be Cher fans, claimed to like her style of music....so much that they could't be bothered to pick up the phone and vote.

If you pay attention to my posts, I have not said she will not have some success on the back of X Factor. I have said that it will be short, not long lasting. Anyone given a recording contract would be expected to have some success - otherwise the time and money would not be spent on such a contract. Whether it is long lasting and fruitful for the 'singer' - is what remains to be seen, and it is a point I think I will be correct on - she will not last long.


Smart fans know that she only needed to get into the final, anyone who really thought she could win was delusional. The further you get into the competition obviously the better chance you have at a career afterwards. She only needed to get this far as evidenced by the interest from Will.I.Am and the obvious intrigue from Simon Cowell.

Now you are insulting every fan on this forum, by claiming them delusional if they thought she could win. They wanted her to win because they believed she could - that's hardly a crime, it's a natural expectation because they like her so much, and want others to like her as much as they do. To brand them delusional is an insult - they have at least given Cher their continued support, via time, and money - they thought she could win because they liked her, and thought others like her as much as they did. Their may have had misbelief in their hopes, but to call them delusional -that' a bit harsh and out of order.

Intrigue from Simon Cowell does not a superstar make. She is a current plaything -next year, Simon will be onto something fresher, newer, better, bigger.

See above.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Locke.

Ok.

No one else would want to sign her? Clearly Simon would, he's showed that he would want to many of times. Many of already established artists have said they'd like to work with her, which would alert many record labels of wanting to sign her because they know she would be in demand. And there is nothing wrong with wanting to get in Cheryl's pants.

And how would you know she isn't a songwriter? You haven't worked with her like he has.

Well no doubt time will tell, but based on the evidence of my own eyes and ears I can't see any longevity in her fifteen minutes of fame. She brings nothing new to the hip hop/rap table, and clearly her so called fans were pretty underwhelmed since they couldn't be arsed to back her by actually voting for her - if that lack of commitment translates into record sales she won't be selling much. In an interview a while back mini me said she would like to write her own songs eventually, but clearly she hasn't YET. I'm sure if she'd done anything decent of her own it would have been showcased earlier on in the show - as it was she successfully managed to butcher some truly iconic songs.

And as for Simon wanting to sign her, he had first dibs but realised there's not much you can do with a one trick pony. He's only kept Cheryl's pet clone in because he, too, is hypnotised by the contents of her pants. If Cheryl ever gives up her so called pop career(), she'd have a great future in the oldest profession in the world.

[Miss Ivy Balls]

Originally Posted by Lewdolph

She's better than Fergie! She'd have been amazing in the BEP...

Originally Posted by Lewdolph

Vocally Fergie is weak, I don't know how anyone can argue with that. Cher is a better singer, and rapper, I think.

I like Cher's voice, but to say she's better than Fergie and that Fergie is weak seems crazy.

Fergie is a very talented singer imo.

[keithafc]

The delusion that people actually think Cher Lloyd (a poor rapper and singer) will have a top career is so sad to see and its sad because so many people buy into what Simon Cowell says and his nonsense in the whole period of the series about Cher and comments like 'genius' and so on when she never did anything in the whole series which you could say was genius.

Is she original? No. Is she a top singer? No. Could you sell her around the world? No.

People need to wake up. Like her but don't claim she will have a top career after this. I keep seeing it all the time with X factor. Look at your history. So many people coming out of the X factor and being tipped to be big and then flop big style.

[Z]

People saying "Cher fans couldn't be bothered to vote" are implying that her fans didn't bother but everyone else's fans did - that's silly; clearly she has a hardcore group of fans who vote for her but her fanbase is nowhere near as big as the other three's. Several people in the industry (the likes of will.i.am, Simon Cowell etc) view Cher as something marketable, so she'll have a shot at making a career out of this. Whether or not she'll be successful is another matter entirely, but she has a chance. She's got a nice enough voice and gives a passable attempt at rapping, but the intrigue comes from her being this dainty girl whose appearance defies her sound. I wasn't a Cher fan, but as Dezzy said, it's madness to just outright deny the fact she'll have some success after the X Factor. If Cher releases a catchy tune, it'll do well, people don't CARE about personality in pop music, it's all about image and sound. Most pop stars are arseholes, either through predisposition or because fame made them that way - it doesn't change the fact that people enjoy their music. If she does get a record deal with will.i.am she'll probably be successful, the man seems to know what appeals to the pop music industry right now, so if he sees Cher as a hot prospect then she probably is one. I still think she's a complete dick and I don't think she deserves to have all these people at her feet, but I do feel some people are being a bit extreme either way when it comes to Cher... Just accept what's in front of you, factually, and move on...

[roxybalboa]

don't forget there is a market out there, (U.S.A) that weren't allowed to vote in our X Factor..... so she may not be as popular with The X Factor fans as a whole, although she did finish 4th, but I believe she will be very popular, especially in America.

I think people were ready to sign her from her very first audition. She's different.

[Blink_Me]

It's not a fact she might be the most marketable. Let's put this way, she's been put in the bottom 2 twice in the last 3 weeks, and just got voted out. For her to be successful, she would need to have fans, and going about with that attitude, "I'm better than everyone else and I'll be the most successful," she won't go far, I assure you; the fans are the key to being successful. Also, she's hardly original.

I guess we'll see what the future brings.

[Jevans]

I don't think she will do as well as people say she will do :/

[Stacey.]

Originally Posted by Jevans

I don't think she will do as well as people say she will do :/

Were you the one that placed a bet on her to win?

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Baby Zeesus

People saying "Cher fans couldn't be bothered to vote" are implying that her fans didn't bother but everyone else's fans did - that's silly; clearly she has a hardcore group of fans who vote for her but her fanbase is nowhere near as big as the other three's. Several people in the industry (the likes of will.i.am, Simon Cowell etc) view Cher as something marketable, so she'll have a shot at making a career out of this. Whether or not she'll be successful is another matter entirely, but she has a chance. She's got a nice enough voice and gives a passable attempt at rapping, but the intrigue comes from her being this dainty girl whose appearance defies her sound. I wasn't a Cher fan, but as Dezzy said, it's madness to just outright deny the fact she'll have some success after the X Factor. If Cher releases a catchy tune, it'll do well, people don't CARE about personality in pop music, it's all about image and sound. Most pop stars are arseholes, either through predisposition or because fame made them that way - it doesn't change the fact that people enjoy their music. If she does get a record deal with will.i.am she'll probably be successful, the man seems to know what appeals to the pop music industry right now, so if he sees Cher as a hot prospect then she probably is one. I still think she's a complete dick and I don't think she deserves to have all these people at her feet, but I do feel some people are being a bit extreme either way when it comes to Cher... Just accept what's in front of you, factually, and move on...

I don't disagree with anything you have said here, indeed I have said the same. she will of course have some degree of success, as will all the other finalists I am sure. The length and spectrum of the level of success will remain to be seen.

[bbfan1991]

Originally Posted by Blink_Me

It's not a fact she might be the most marketable. Let's put this way, she's been put in the bottom 2 twice in the last 3 weeks, and just got voted out. For her to be successful, she would need to have fans, and going about with that attitude, "I'm better than everyone else and I'll be the most successful," she won't go far, I assure you; the fans are the key to being successful. Also, she's hardly original.

I guess we'll see what the future brings.

So what if she's been in the bottom 2 twice?, JLS and Olly were there once and look at them now.. what matters is what happens after the show and Cher does have her fans who get her.

Looks like Syco are planning on signing her up on a Ł1 million recording contract just had a look on Google.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Snowball
She did not have a strong demographic fanbase to get her this far. You seem to have forgotten that the judges were the ones who repeatedly saved her after being in the bottom two. That's hardly a strong demographic fanbase.

Diana Vickers didn't have to try to ride on the back of someone who was actually there with the mentor at the judges house, a mentor who has very strong connections with Will I Am. I suspect he is being more loyal to Cheryl, than Cher. Notwithstanding that - Diana did it alone - not needing to taken under the win of a group far older than herself. Cher needs back up that Diana didn't need.

You misread me AGAIN, this is becoming a habbit. I didn't say she had a strong demographic presence I said that she had a niche vote within the demographics of the overall voters, enough to get this far but not enough to win. I make the comparision to Diana Vickers because fanbase wise it's a similar story, both were divisive and both had loyal fans although they didn't have enough supports from the casual votes to win. The rest of your statement here is just bias bleating so I shan't waste my time with it.

YOU were the one who made mention of 'Cher's' songs - I asked what songs you were referring to - you couldn't answer because you have heard none that she has writte herself presumably? If you have, you would be able to have answered my question (on a point that you yourself raised). You raised the point, are unable to answer it, and can only now deflect by making comparisons to what songs the others have written - something I did not allude to.

Pedantics will get you nowhere, You know I was referring to the style of her eventual songs, she's hardly going to release an album of showtunes isn't she? She'll do a hip hop tinged album of some sort and chances are she'll have a fair few people featuring because that's a common thing to do within the music industry. I was making a guess on what her style of music was going to be. None of them has released songs so your point, once again, is stupid.

As has been evidenced with Cher, all publicity is not good publicity. It was much of the bad publicity that has lost her some of her fanbase, and did not bring her enough fan support to reach the final three. If even the bad publicity (along with your belief that she is something very special), the public would have not been swayed by any bad publicity. They were. I suspect for all the right reasons too.

How do you know bad publicity had much of an effect? Do you alone have complete knowledge of the voting figures? No, you don't. Right from the start she was divisive and she was never going to win but she was pretty much guaranteed a record deal because of the interest she generated from the media and from the right people. Like I said before winning the X Factor is more of a curse really because only people who are somewhat liked win, that's why the runners up tend to do better because people cared more about them, whether it be for positive reasons or not. I don't believe she is anything special, she's just incredibly marketable, anyone could see that...well anyone who could see things from a balaced perspective.

I am not disputing that only the winner will receive a recording contract - it's been the case now for years that that is not the case, so your point above is a moot one, in trying to defend what you said about 'votes don't count'. Clearly they do count, otherwise the contestants would not have reached the point in the competion that they have, without people voting. On that point therefore, you are wrong. Votes do indeed count.

Votes only matter so much to the runners up my point about the winner caring so much about it is a good point, it's how they win it's how they get the contract. Some other people will get record contracts anyway so the votes only matter so much to them because their path lies beyond X factor. My point stands, you really need to read what I say carefully. You've fumbled what I've been saying so many times now.

As for your continuing 'hate' comments. I am not that emotionally atttached or involved, or do I know any of the contestants on a personal basis upon which to determine a level of dislike to reach hate - I dislike for a variety of reason. To hate, I'd say you would have to have some real emotional tie - again therefore, you are wrong. I don't hate. I do dislike - there is a difference.

Heck, even with Matt who be all means is my 'cher' if you will, I can admit that he has some plus points, some of the points you're arguing against saying that she isn't marketable is like saying the grass isn't green. Whether you like her or not it's not really debateable that she has record bosses and the media interested and that she's gonna get a contract easily. I don't care much about Cher, I'll probably hate her when she releases her own material but I'm not arguing that she's good I'm arguing that she's got something that appeals to the record companies and that she'll attain some success. Which she obviously will given the attention she's been given.

No, you said that I was so blinded by hate that I could not have a balanced perception. That is an insult - simply because I disagree with your opinion. I simply see no pros in Cher. That's my right as an individual. You might not like that, but I'm afraid you will have to accept that as my opinion - of which I have a right to state.

An insult would be if I called you a moron for example, I didn't, I said you were blinded and that you couldn't see things from a balanced perspective which is pretty obvious from what you've been saying.

Oh Freedom of speech, thanks for playing that card. Yes you have got the right to an opinion, but I've also got the right to tear that opinion apart because I don't agree with it. Freedom of Speech pal, it's a two way street. If you don't want a debate then don't step into the arena.

I don't have to take the high road with anyone, there's simply no need for it. If anyone appears to be failing to maintain a reasonable temperment, it is you, rather than me. I suggest you rein in your temper (aka 'little mini mod act' - learn to perhaps be less rude) and have more constructive reasoned debate, rather than throwing what appears to be, little strops around the place here and fllinging insults to members. Why should I worry whether I 'get anywhere with you'? I am merely responding to a person on a forum.

I'm perfectly calm, to be angry would suggest I care, I don't. This is just a fun little game of debate for me, one I'm currently winning with ease. This isn't even a challenge. You're just trying to reflect your own feelings onto me. I didn't even get that personal with you, I just said (once again) that you can't see Cher from a balanced point of view which is true and you have got a tendency to try and take moral highground. I'm just stating facts here.

Enlighten me, What insults have I 'thrown' anywhere? Go on, point out this rampage of destruction I've apparently gone on. You can't because it doesn't exist.

PMSL. This shows the level of maturity being displayed and shows with utmost clarity that there appears to be something in you that does not allow you to consider that there is a reason for my comment - not that I am out of touch - more than I've seen these acts come and go for a lot longer a time than you have. I could be wrong, I could be right - but what I do have, is the benefit of witnessing such things, that you don't have. That's hardly being out of touch.

You were the one who tried to shut me down with 'I'm older, I know better' when you said and I quote you have the 'age advantage'? Now forgive me if I'm wrong but X factor has been on for 7 years has it not? Since I'm not under 7 years old I too have seen all the series as well so what advantage does age give you here? None. Don't play the age card if you don't want it thrown back. I said that you were out of touch because you've talked very little about her style or current trends in music like I have which suggests you aren't as comfortable discussing it because your knowledge isn't that good of it which tells me you're out of touch.

Now you are insulting every fan on this forum, by claiming them delusional if they thought she could win. They wanted her to win because they believed she could - that's hardly a crime, it's a natural expectation because they like her so much, and want others to like her as much as they do. To brand them delusional is an insult - they have at least given Cher their continued support, via time, and money - they thought she could win because they liked her, and thought others like her as much as they did. Their may have had misbelief in their hopes, but to call them delusional -that' a bit harsh and out of order.

ROFL now that's hilarious, it's like saying I'm insulting the entire forum on my opinion of the public. It's a complete and utter stretch and you know it. You're obviously angling for me to get in trouble now which is fruitless, I know where the limits are and I don't cross them so good luck with that plan of action. So go on then, report me. Nothing will come off it because I've not insulted you I've kept well within what's acceptable.

She was never going to win, most of her fans knew that and most of them have been looking to her post X Factor career for weeks now. She was always too divisive to be a winner and most fans knew that really.

Intrigue from Simon Cowell does not a superstar make. She is a current plaything -next year, Simon will be onto something fresher, newer, better, bigger.

But it doesn't hinder anyone, Simon's support as much as I dislike him can open doors, very useful doors.

[Locke.]

It's easy for her to be successful now.

Nicole Sherzinger said on live TV that she would like Cher to rap on one of her songs, there's a lot of promotion. Tinie Tempah or Chimpmunk (can't remember what one) asked Cher to appear and perform at one of their concerts, so they obviously rate her highly and wouldn't mind working with her. Will.i.am clearly rates her highly and has already shown interest in signing her, and she only left the show about 15 hours ago. There have been plenty of others over the weeks aswell I just can't remember them.

But yeah, if Will.i.am signs her then she will probably end up supporting Black Eyed Peas on one of their tours. She will end up featuring on one of his solo songs. And could even end up on some of his friends songs (Nicki Minaj for example). And if she signs with Simon then she will be everywhere here in a years time, but I think she will last longer in the industry if she signs with Will.i.am.

[MojoNixon]

[Zippy]

Just because Cher didnt get most votes on a TV show doesnt mean she will not sell lots of records. Or even the most records of all of them. Most record buyers just do not vote on talent shows...period. I never have. But I may still buy her records if I like them.

Likewise, people who vote on talent shows will not necessarily then go buy your records. TV talent shows and the real world of selling records are two separate mediums.

Ultimately it will come down to who releases the best material. It's like a clean slate all over after XF finishes. They all have to earn their chart positions.