[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

I'm going to assume you're a man, because I really don't think a woman could post the above and I also think it's a smashing illustration of the divide of understanding between the sexes. Women who are kicked in the head on a weekly basis stay in the same house as the men who do it. Do you think that's because they like it? And don't tell me it's an entirely different thing. It's exactly the same. The burkha is just the thin end of the wedge and, for some bizarre reason, an edge that's being ignored.

My gender doesn't matter and it's quite ironic that you've brought it into the discussion considering what it's about. Quite hypocritical.

I think you're argument is ridiculously stereotypical and overly emotional. Islam does not equal domestic abuse, I'm not saying that it doesn't exist I'm just saying it's wrong to tar an entire group of diverse people with the same brush. Some women WILL choose to wear the Burkha, some won't. The point I'm making is that it should be THEIR decision to choose either way, not anybody else's. You seem to think that I'm some mysogynistic man who's pro Burkha and I'm not. I don't like the connotations of it BUT I believe in Women having the liberty of making their own choices.

[Lee.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

My gender doesn't matter and it's quite ironic that you've brought it into the discussion considering what it's about. Quite hypocritical.

I think you're argument is ridiculously stereotypical and overly emotional. Islam does not equal domestic abuse, I'm not saying that it doesn't exist I'm just saying it's wrong to tar an entire group of diverse people with the same brush. Some women WILL choose to wear the Burkha, some won't. The point I'm making is that it should be THEIR decision to choose either way, not anybody else's. You seem to think that I'm some mysogynistic man who's pro Burkha and I'm not. I don't like the connotations of it BUT I believe in Women having the liberty of making their own choices.

These women don't know what liberty is though.. They don't know any better and are never ever free to make their own choices. From birth they are merely know as a daughter of such and such or the wife of such and such.
Most have "masters" all their lives

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by happyland

These women don't know what liberty is though.. They don't know any better and are never ever free to make their own choices. From birth they are merely know as a daughter of such and such or the wife of such and such.
Most have "masters" all their lives

But that goes back to the point about tarring all of them with the same brush, creating the image that all burkha wearers must really be oppressed females who have been forced to wear this garment and just havent realised it yet..

[Lee.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But that goes back to the point about tarring all of them with the same brush, creating the image that all burkha wearers must really be oppressed females who have been forced to wear this garment and just havent realised it yet..

To be honest.. to bring a girl up with the belief that she must cover herself from head to foot IS oppresion. Many aren't forced but just accept it, as this has always been their way. But whether they feel forced or wear one willingly or not, surely the whole thing just symbolises oppresion in it's purest form? something which , in our civilised world should not be encouraged?

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by happyland

To be honest.. to bring a girl up with the belief that she must cover herself from head to foot IS oppresion. Many aren't forced but just accept it, as this has always been their way. But whether they feel forced or wear one willingly or not, surely the whole thing just symbolises oppresion in it's purest form? something which , in our civilised world should not be encouraged?

Absolutely spot on.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

No, because it's not gender specific and it's not a direct reference to the demand for subservience from women.
Again, where, exactly, did I say that the women aren't "capable" of making the decision. Of course they're capable. They're societally oppressed, religiously oppressed and, sadly, oppressed by every male in their household. The wearing of a burkha is the surrender of the spirit, and I really feel sad and sorry for anyone who won't or can't see that.

It might not be gender exclusive but it is usually worn by Jewish men and not Jewish woman

And by banning the burkha clearly you are saying they are not capable of making the decision for themselves. You are trying to impose your views on other people, in a sense you are oppressing them by refusing to allow them to wear something they consider essential to their religion.

Originally Posted by happyland

To be honest.. to bring a girl up with the belief that she must cover herself from head to foot IS oppresion. Many aren't forced but just accept it, as this has always been their way. But whether they feel forced or wear one willingly or not, surely the whole thing just symbolises oppresion in it's purest form? something which , in our civilised world should not be encouraged?

I dont think it's necessarily a symbol of repression and whether you do or do not is subjective really. A willing wearer of the burkha might think it brings them closer to God, and it is their way of expressing their faith. Personally I dont understand it but touching on the point of living in a civilised society, I think we should be tolerant and respectful of others beliefs. If it is considered of extreme importance to them then they can go ahead and wear it in my eyes.

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by MTVN

It might not be gender exclusive but it is usually worn by Jewish men and not Jewish woman

And by banning the burkha clearly you are saying they are not capable of making the decision for themselves. You are trying to impose your views on other people, in a sense you are oppressing them by refusing to allow them to wear something they consider essential to their religion.



I dont think it's necessarily a symbol of repression and whether you do or do not is subjective really. A willing wearer of the burkha might think it brings them closer to God, and it is their way of expressing their faith. Personally I dont understand it but touching on the point of living in a civilised society, I think we should be tolerant and respectful of others beliefs. If it is considered of extreme importance to them then they can go ahead and wear it in my eyes.

You do realise that's straight out of the Book of Fundamentalist Justifications, don't you?
An dangerous and highly inaccurate argument - in my opinion.
We should be more respectful of rights and equality than of beliefs.

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

My gender doesn't matter and it's quite ironic that you've brought it into the discussion considering what it's about. Quite hypocritical.

I think you're argument is ridiculously stereotypical and overly emotional. Islam does not equal domestic abuse, I'm not saying that it doesn't exist I'm just saying it's wrong to tar an entire group of diverse people with the same brush.
The point I'm making is that it should be THEIR decision to choose either way, not anybody else's. You seem to think that I'm some mysogynistic man who's pro Burkha and I'm not. I don't like the connotations of it BUT I believe in Women having the liberty of making their own choices.

BIB 1. How and why is that hypocritical. Of course it's an issue about gender and the oppression of women by men. What the hell else would it be about?
BIB 2. See now, that's just ridiculous. Where did I say that? Oppression equates to domestic violence. Of course it does. Try responding to what's written instead of what you'd like me to have written.
BIB 3. But they don't have that liberty. That's the problem.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by happyland

These women don't know what liberty is though.. They don't know any better and are never ever free to make their own choices. From birth they are merely know as a daughter of such and such or the wife of such and such.
Most have "masters" all their lives

Sorry but I think that's patronising as hell, not all muslims are like what you read in the newspapers or watch on the TV and it annoys me when people think that. It's a stereotype based on the minority rather then a majority.

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

BIB 1. How and why is that hypocritical. Of course it's an issue about gender and the oppression of women by men. What the hell else would it be about?
BIB 2. See now, that's just ridiculous. Where did I say that? Oppression equates to domestic violence. Of course it does. Try responding to what's written instead of what you'd like me to have written.
BIB 3. But they don't have that liberty. That's the problem.

Again it's patronising to assume that all muslim women are downtrodden and meek, It reminds me of a friend I had in college that wore a version of the Burkha at times It wasn't quite the letterbox version but it was close and she chewed my ear off once for even suggesting that she was victimised into wearing it.

I'm not denying it doesn't happen though but to ban it is a blanket solution to a specific problem and in the long run it won't help the victims as they'll still be abused, they'll just have more freeing clothes to suffer in. Banning a big piece of fabric won't do achieve anything if you want to stop the violence. You've got to tackle the problem at it's core and individually.

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Sorry but I think that's patronising as hell, not all muslims are like what you read in the newspapers or watch on the TV and it annoys me when people think that. It's a stereotype based on the minority rather then a majority.



Again it's patronising to assume that all muslim women are downtrodden and meek, It reminds me of a friend I had in college that wore a version of the Burkha at times It wasn't quite the letterbox version but it was close and she chewed my ear off once for even suggesting that she was victimised into wearing it.

I'm not denying it doesn't happen though but to ban it is a blanket solution to a specific problem and in the long run it won't help the victims as they'll still be abused, they'll just have more freeing clothes to suffer in. Banning a big piece of fabric won't do achieve anything if you want to stop the violence. You've got to tackle the problem at it's core and individually.

I assume nothing of the sort. I KNOW they're physically weaker, and I SUSPECT they are neither downtrodden, nor meek, but frightened. They have no rights to their children or an income.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

I assume nothing of the sort. I KNOW they're physically weaker, and I SUSPECT they are neither downtrodden, nor meek, but frightened. They have no rights to their children or an income.

I don't even need to point out how wrong this post is. Your whole argument is just a bunch of assumptions based on a minority of Muslims.

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I don't even need to point out how wrong this post is. Your whole argument is just a bunch of assumptions based on a minority of Muslims.

The same minority who FORCE their women to cover up; which is the minority we are discussing, no?