[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

eh, I'm not really the strongest advocate of the (all-encompassing, gun-toting) right to defend your home but what are South Africa's laws on that? Because I think it's a bit extreme to say that's murder.

Hearing a noise in the bathroom and blindly just firing a gun at someone on the other side of a door 4 times I would think is murder.

I don't think that would count as self defence or anything.

[Kate!]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

Hearing a noise in the bathroom and blindly just firing a gun at someone on the other side of a door 4 times I would think is murder.

I don't think that would count as self defence or anything.

Yes, it's hardly what I'd expect the instinctive reaction to be. My first thought would be instantly to go to check on my partner, phone for help, and get out of there.

[Ammi]

..I don't know, it's a bit of a tricky one in a way, Marsh...it's a completely different world to the one we're used to with the threat and fear of intruders etc, so it's hard to really predict what would be 'typical behaviour' maybe..

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't know, it's a bit of a tricky one in a way, Marsh...it's a completely different world to the one we're used to with the threat and fear of intruders etc, so it's hard to really predict what would be 'typical behaviour' maybe..

Agree, SA is one of the most violent countries in the world and the fear of break ins or armed intruders will be massively heightened there, I think Pistorious once admitted before all this in an interview that he slept with a gun, a baseball bat and a cricket bat for fear or burglars. If he was also on his stumps and lacking any real mobility that would only make it a more frightening situation

According to this article:

South African law gives far more leeway to the use of force in self defence than many other countries. Anyone can respond with force if their life is in danger.

The attacker does not necessarily have to be carrying a weapon: if you fear injury or death, you can use the most extreme means, including killing the assailant.

There is no balancing of weapons. If, for example, the attacker is carrying a knife and his target happens to have a firearm, the intended victim would be entitled to shoot that person dead.

South African law also states that you can defend somebody else if there is a possibility of serious injury or death. You are entitled to intervene and even kill the attacker. You do not have to be in a family or any other kind of relationship to the victim.

If somebody breaks into your house, you are entitled to kill that person under certain circumstances. If the burglar runs away and you kill that person anyway, you could be exceeding the bounds of self-defence. If, however, you are faced with a situation where you fear for your life or safety, you would be entitled to kill the intruder.

South African courts understand that these scenarios happen very quickly, usually at night. A householder cannot sit down and decide objectively exactly what should be done. You could reasonably expect any intruder to be armed and capable of doing you harm. The courts tend to accept a broad definition of self-defence.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Agree, SA is one of the most violent countries in the world and the fear of break ins or armed intruders will be massively heightened there, I think Pistorious once admitted before all this in an interview that he slept with a gun, a baseball bat and a cricket bat for fear or burglars. If he was also on his stumps and lacking any real mobility that would only make it a more frightening situation

According to this article:

but he wasn't really worried about intruders. He was just angry at his woman, who he considered his property, and when she locked herself in a bathroom to get away from him, he was so frustrated that she wouldn't open the door, that he just started shooting through the door.

That's what I think at least.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by lostalex

but he wasn't really worried about intruders. he was just angry at his woman, who he considered his property, and when she locked herself in a bathroom to get away from him, he was so frustrated that that she wouldn't open the door, that he just started shooting through thew door.

That's what i think at least.

You may well be right, I was just talking hypothetically if he really did think it was an intruder he probably wouldn't be convicted of murder

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

You may well be right, I was just talking hypothetically if he really did think it was an intruder he probably wouldn't be convicted of murder

Why would an intruder go into his bathroom and lock himself in though? It makes absolutely no sense

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Agree, SA is one of the most violent countries in the world and the fear of break ins or armed intruders will be massively heightened there, I think Pistorious once admitted before all this in an interview that he slept with a gun, a baseball bat and a cricket bat for fear or burglars. If he was also on his stumps and lacking any real mobility that would only make it a more frightening situation

According to this article:

..I have an aunt and uncle who lived in South Africa for many years and my uncle was shot three times during their lives there and two of those times it was by intruders in their home...we hear about dreadful situations on the news etc and obviously we take precautions for our safety but we don’t live with the day to day real threats and fears that people in some countries do so it’s really hard to fully understand it or the precautions they take compared to what we think we would do..?..

..there’s no question that he shot her, obviously...that’s where I think this differs from most other cases..and there obviously is also a chance that he deliberately killed her but if had to say, do I 100% believe that it was an intentional killing..?..I really couldn’t say that and even if I felt 97/98/99% sure...that’s enough isn’t it to say there is element of doubt...and enough for an innocent verdict and I think that’s the way it could go...

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I have an aunt and uncle who lived in South Africa for many years and my uncle was shot three times during their lives there and two of those times it was by intruders in their home...we hear about dreadful situations on the news etc and obviously we take precautions for our safety but we don’t live with the day to day real threats and fears that people in some countries do so it’s really hard to fully understand it or the precautions they take compared to what we think we would do..?..

..there’s no question that he shot her, obviously...that’s where I think this differs from most other cases..and there obviously is also a chance that he deliberately killed her but if had to say, do I 100% believe that it was an intentional killing..?..I really couldn’t say that and even if I felt 97/98/99% sure...that’s enough isn’t it to say there is element of doubt...and enough for an innocent verdict and I think that’s the way it could go...

innocent of 1st degree murder maybe, but completely innocent? no. Certainly he's guilty of a crime that at least deserves 20 years in jail. Why didn't he ask who was in the bathroom? why didn't he check on Reeva if he really thought they were danger?

He didn't do anything right in that scenario. Whether he was murdering his girlfriend, or just killed her by accident because he was paranoid about intruders, either way it was a horrible crime and he deserves to be in jail for a very long time. He acted recklessly either way.

None of his actions, no matter which story you believe, were appropriate or reasonable actions.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by lostalex

innocent of 1st degree murder maybe, but completely innocent? no. Certainly he's guilty of a crime that at least deserves 20 years in jail. Why didn't he ask who was in the bathroom? why didn't he check on Reeva if he really thought they were danger?

He didn't do anything right in that scenario. Whether he was murdering his girlfriend, or just killed her by accident because he was paranoid about intruders, either way it was a horrible crime and he deserves to be in jail for a very long time. He acted recklessly either way.

None of his actions, no matter which story you believe, were appropriate or reasonable actions.

..yeah but I think that's the thing though, Alex..he's being tried for premeditated murder and I'm not saying that I believe that he felt under threat from an intruder/intruders but I think it's going to be something that's going to be extremely hard to establish for certain, which is why I think there will be an element of doubt and I don't think he'll be found guilty, so there is no alternative other than 'innocent'...