[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Brilliant post Livia, I have issues with Islam, but having an issue with how a Religion runs itself does not make me a bigot like some would have you believe.

The way their extremists behave (which seems to be a lot more of them than in any other Religion) is very backward and dangerous, they're not just causing trouble in the UK, they're doing it in Burma, China, even took hostages from countries like Japan, you have a small group that can cause trouble in India, some of them that are in the US also cause trouble, and don't forget how some Europeans like France and Germany are having issues with the Muslim population as well.

I would be well on the Muslims side if it was just the UK taking a funny with them, but when 5 or 6 other countries just off the top of my head are having issues with them, and are fine with every other Religion in their countries then I think it's just souly the Muslims fault, and they need to have a serious look about how to modernize themselves as the majority in this case cannot be wrong.

Problem is you are treating Muslims as a homogeneous group when Islam quite clearly manifests itself in literally dozens of different ways across different countries and different historical periods

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Problem is you are treating Muslims as a homogeneous group when Islam quite clearly manifests itself in literally dozens of different ways across different countries and different historical periods

Well of course like every Religion you have different sects and the followers ranging from mild believers to extreme believers.

However the representatives of the Islamic Religion are very extreme, and they're the only culture that I know of that seem to be obsessed with turning countries into an Islamic State (and I'm not just on about the UK) I don't have an issue with people that want to follow the Religion in piece, but I do have a problem with any Muslim that seems to want to force people into converting to Islam by blowing people up and destroying Christian Cities, killing people in the name of Islam.

They're like how Christians was in the Medieval Times, and the thing is no civil country should stand for that, this Religion needs to be brought up to date a little bit as they can't just live in wealthier countries and then attack it for having different beliefs to you.

If they don't like the none Muslim culture then don't live in those countries, it's as simple as that really to me.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Well of course like every Religion you have different sects and the followers ranging from mild believers to extreme believers.

However the representatives of the Islamic Religion are very extreme, and they're the only culture that I know of that seem to be obsessed with turning countries into an Islamic State (and I'm not just on about the UK) I don't have an issue with people that want to follow the Religion in piece, but I do have a problem with any Muslim that seems to want to force people into converting to Islam by blowing people up and destroying Christian Cities, killing people in the name of Islam.

They're like how Christians was in the Medieval Times, and the thing is no civil country should stand for that, this Religion needs to be brought up to date a little bit as they can't just live in wealthier countries and then attack it for having different beliefs to you.

If they don't like the none Muslim culture then don't live in those countries, it's as simple as that really to me.

Still assuming Muslims are a homogeneous group. It's not the case that it's a linear spectrum from mildly believing Muslims to extreme believing terrorists, its far more complicated than that. ISIS are only representative of their own fundamentalist, hardline version of Islam. They take pride in that, far more dogmatic than any other Islamist group before them, and will just as happily kill other Muslims who don't subscribe to their beliefs as they will Westerners - in fact they're liable to hate other Muslims more. Why do you see them as representatives of the Islamic Religion? Why not see, say, the Kurds as representative? They are overwhelmingly Muslim but are typically quite a liberal people and they are on the front lines fighting IS. Why not see the Indonesia as representative? An Islamic democracy. You talk about the Medieval times, well the medieval Muslim world saw some of the biggest scientific and cultural advances in human history. Why not see that as representative? Or we could just accept that it's actually pretty impossible for any one group in any one time to 'represent' Islam. It will always manifest itself in different ways. Yes IS are Muslims and we should appreciate that fact, but we should also appreciate that they represent no one but themselves.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Still assuming Muslims are a homogeneous group. It's not the case that it's a linear spectrum from mildly believing Muslims to extreme believing terrorists, its far more complicated than that. ISIS are only representative of their own fundamentalist, hardline version of Islam. They take pride in that, far more dogmatic than any other Islamist group before them, and will just as happily kill other Muslims who don't subscribe to their beliefs as they will Westerners - in fact they're liable to hate other Muslims more. Why do you see them as representatives of the Islamic Religion? Why not see, say, the Kurds as representative? They are overwhelmingly Muslim but are typically quite a liberal people and they are on the front lines fighting IS. Why not see the Indonesia as representative? An Islamic democracy. You talk about the Medieval times, well the medieval Muslim world saw some of the biggest scientific and cultural advances in human history. Why not see that as representative? Or we could just accept that it's actually pretty impossible for any one group in any one time to 'represent' Islam. It will always manifest itself in different ways. Yes IS are Muslims and we should appreciate that fact, but we should also appreciate that they represent no one but themselves.

Thanks for the educated voice MTVN

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Thanks for the educated voice MTVN

As distinct from voices which write about Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism and condemn it which are uneducated?

I would put Matt among the top 4 most educated, intelligent, knowledgeable and articulate members on this forum, and I cannot fault what he states in his latest post, but none of his points are unique on this forum because similar points have been made by others in various posts - though MTVN does excellently articulate them in one single post.

What I do have a problem with is posts which repeatedly make serious specific statements which simply are not true, and for which there is not one shred of credible evidence which justifies such statements.

For example, your post reproduced in part below:

"Fortunately, of all the sites I use and I use quite a lot, this is the only site where I see some regular Islamophobia and even then I could count on one hand who those people are. What I do know is, these people don’t speak on behalf of a nation as was recently suggested; they don’t speak on my behalf or most of the other members who use this forum. Islamophobia is merely a small group who are getting a lot of tabloid coverage at the moment."

The section which I have emboldened, is but gross misrepresentation because no one on this forum is 'Islamophobic' - just anti 'ISIS', 'ISIL' and 'IS', and I would greatly appreciate it if you would collate and post actual evidence that anyone on this forum is 'Islamophobic'.

You are also a - very obviously - well-educated, intelligent, knowledgeable and articulate person, so I cannot attribute your misrepresentation to any misunderstanding or misinterpretation of other FM's posts, so I am afraid that I am left with no other conclusion but that your accusatory 'Islamophobia' statement is false by design not error.

I have repeatedly stressed in many lengthy posts on this forum that I am not blaming all Muslims for the Islamic terrorist's inhuman actions, and I have gone to great lengths to expound just why 'ordinary peace-loving Muslims' are not to blame, and I know that other FM's who have been the most vociferous in their condemnation of IS, ISIS, ISIL et al , have done the same.

Despite this, the same hackneyed and hysterical accusations that we are 'Islamaphobic' or 'Xenophobic', and 'Tarring all Muslims with the same brush'... Yawn.... etc. are levied against us.

It simply is not true. It is unjust, and it does nothing but impair sensible debate.

I have stated before, that in many ways, this forum is a microcosm of real life, and this is illustrated nowhere better than in the fact that although the great majority on here are passive and silent, they are NOT ignorant and are nonetheless still very AWARE of the real issues affecting us all, but the fact that this passive majority are silent and may prefer ‘not to get involved’, does lead to a situation – both in the ‘real’ world, and on here – where only a few very vociferous minorities engage in often heated debates (for want of a more apt word) on terrorism. Unfortunately, those of us who condemn terrorism in all its manifestations are the lesser minority and are often subjected to irrational attacks for our views, and unjustly accused of 'Islamaphobia’ and similar as mentioned above.

No amount of unjustifiable attacks though – no matter how aggressive or artfully veiled they may be – can obscure the incontrovertible truth of what we write:

A) ISIS, ISIL, IS are Muslims.
B) The Quran is The Holy Book of Islam – The unaltered direct word of Allah.
C) The Quran contains 109 chapters which exhort the Muslim faithful to perpetrate every type of violence from dismembering to beheading. Unlike similar passages in the Judeo Christian Bible, these chapters are ‘open-ended’ not ‘era-specific’, and are ‘prescriptive not descriptive’.
D) Secreted among the majority of ‘ordinary’ peace-loving UK domiciled Muslim communities are a minority of Islamic Fundamentalists, IS sympathisers, and actual terrorists.
E) Immigration is irrefutably linked to Islamic terrorism: a minority of Fifth Columnist Jihadists and Islamic Extremist activists enter the UK secreted among the masses of ‘ordinary’ immigrants. Various of our Chiefs of Police and Security Services are now on record confirming this link.
F) The sheer numbers of British born or previously domiciled British Muslim immigrants, who are increasingly being revealed to have engaged in, or are currently engaged in terrorist murders and other evil atrocities – both in the UK but especially in Syria, Iraq and other foreign countries – is undeniable.

The above are incontrovertible, irrefutable, undeniable FACTS and to state them is NOT an attack on ALL Muslims, nor an attack on ALL immigrants, nor is it being ‘ISLAMOPHOBIC’ or ‘RACIST’, and anyone who misconstrues or misrepresents them as such is trying to stifle legitimate discussion and SILENCE contrary views and debate, by stealth and simply unfair tactics.

I will debate any issue at all, and – as always – I will support my opinion and any of my contentions with facts, and I will always employ fairness and civility when discussing, but please let’s discard untrue premises and unfair misrepresentation – starting with the statement that there are ‘Islamaphobes’ on this forum because such a statement is simply not true.