[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's not really how it works Niamh, they didn't even get 40% of the popular vote. I suppose you can't assume that everyone who didn't vote Tory was actively against having a Tory government... but you can't assume that they weren't, either. I'm relatively confident in saying that anyone who voted Labour, SNP, Green, most Independents, and a good chunk of Lib Dem would not have wanted a Tory government.

But you're never going to get a party having over 50% in a multi-party system, its not happened since 1931 in this country when politics really was a two party affair. And even if you put together Labour voters, SNP voters, Green voters and every Lib Dem voter, that doesn't even make up 50% of the vote. If we absolutely insist on talking about national vote share well then the right of centre parties in the Tories, Ukip, the DUP and the UUP got just about over 50% of the national vote.

[Kazanne]

The 16 year old boy arrested in that riot wasn't even old enough to vote!! just another moron on the bandwagon.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

True, but I don't see it as any reason that people have to just roll over and take it up the tailpipe. Majority rule isn't always a good thing. Refusing to conform to popular opinion is not a character flaw. Sometimes, popular opinion is stupid and dangerous.

But then, I've been pretty open about that in the past. I have my reservations about full democracy. I don't trust "people in general" - I think they're stupid, ignorant and easily lead. That goes for voters of all parties by the way I'm not making assumptions about any one group... it's just people. "Average Intelligence" = "Quite Stupid".

Well, if you take that power away from the people you end up with a dictatorship, that imo is far more dangerous. No system is perfect or will make everyone happy but imo every person should have a say in how their country is run

[Jemal]

You can't tell me that this system of voting doesn't need to be changed because it does.
Over half of the country doesn't want tory's in power and what? Did people just expect everyone to be okay with it especially with the stupid policies that they have created that look like they only favour the rich side of town.

Give me a break. Listen i've never been a fan of torys but even in the last election when i still knew a fair few things about politics I wasn't really upset about the conservatives winning purely because their policies were not ground breaking and didn't really have a big impact on people like me or of a similar ilk.

But this election has just been so dubious to say the least that i'm not even going to count david cameron as a prime minister. It just doesn't make sense. A prime minister even if they are a left wing party or right wing it doesn't matter they should still have some policies that will favour the wing they are not specialised in.

Yes a minority of the rioters were stupid but the rest of them I applaud them for taking a stand cause britian need people who are willing to call out this stupidity of a government that is out to ruin this country and the working class lives for the next five years.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's not really how it works Niamh, they didn't even get 40% of the popular vote. I suppose you can't assume that everyone who didn't vote Tory was actively against having a Tory government... but you can't assume that they weren't, either. I'm relatively confident in saying that anyone who voted Labour, SNP, Green, most Independents, and a good chunk of Lib Dem would not have wanted a Tory government.

The protest/riot was over austerity. The only major party that was anti austerity was the SNP, all the others were invoking some form of austerity measures.

The UK democratic system revolves around who got the most votes at constituency and parliament level. At a constituency level, if there are 25 candidates, the one who received the most votes wins the seats. At a parliament level, the party with the majority of the seats wins. Its pretty straightforward and easy to understand. It is the process that individual candidates agree to when the stand for election.

Everyone is entitled to lobby for change if they feel that system is unfair, and if they get sufficient support, it will be changed. That is democracy.

Rioting/protesting in the street because they do not like the result of a democratic election is not democracy, and those saying they support that action are anarchists, no ifs or doubts about it.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm quite disgusted at this thread. How people can justify this pathetic riot is amazing, but not wholly unexpected. I remember "protestors" throwing a fire extinguisher from the top of Tory HQ, luckily it didn't kill anyone but it was an extreme act of violence and yet people were still saying they had a point.

Don't like the result of the election? Let's riot, and some people who didn't get the election result they wanted will back us. I wonder how many of those rioters have a job? I'm guessing not many. And sadly for the people who went along to peacefully protest - because even if I don't agree with them I do uphold their right to peaceful protest - their message has been lost on the majority, overshadowed by the reckless acts of the few. But some people are backing them! Astonishing.

The thread is the most depressing indictment of the left I've seen for a while, and it's up against some stiff competition.

Pretty much this. Well said Livia.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well, if you take that power away from the people you end up with a dictatorship, that imo is far more dangerous. No system is perfect or will make everyone happy but imo every person should have a say in how their country is run

An intelligent benevolent and genuinely caring dictatorship would be far more fair and effective than any democracy, in my opinion, but that's sort of irrelevant as there's most likely no such thing.

Thus far, democracy is the best we have but it isn't just "not perfect"... it's crap. It's speeches, lies, smear campaigns and propaganda. All of it. I'm an SNP supporter but I will freely admit that there's a LOT of SNP propaganda that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The way this general election campaign was conducted by the major parties was absolutely foul. Both campaigning on fear, both getting personal, barely a sniff of "here's what we will actually DO", just a clawing rabble all desperate to get into power.

I can accept the outcome of the election - I think it was inevitable, for multiple reasons - but I can't accept that we all just have to say "it is what it is" and keep quiet. "It's not perfect but this steaming pile of dung system is the best we have".

There has to be something better than this. A better system that actually works without the lies and the fear. And if people aren't willing to say "No, this is all bull****" we will never find it... we will continue this same pointless cycle until it all collapses.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm quite disgusted at this thread. How people can justify this pathetic riot is amazing, but not wholly unexpected. I remember "protestors" throwing a fire extinguisher from the top of Tory HQ, luckily it didn't kill anyone but it was an extreme act of violence and yet people were still saying they had a point.

Don't like the result of the election? Let's riot, and some people who didn't get the election result they wanted will back us. I wonder how many of those rioters have a job? I'm guessing not many. And sadly for the people who went along to peacefully protest - because even if I don't agree with them I do uphold their right to peaceful protest - their message has been lost on the majority, overshadowed by the reckless acts of the few. But some people are backing them! Astonishing.

The thread is the most depressing indictment of the left I've seen for a while, and it's up against some stiff competition.

Nothing to say about Kirk describing how he would like to shoot people or see them gunned down? Nothing at all Livia? ...Not a peep? No?

Thought not.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Nothing to say about Kirk describing how he would like to shoot people or see them gunned down? Nothing at all Livia? ...Not a peep? No?

Thought not.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

An intelligent benevolent and genuinely caring dictatorship would be far more fair and effective than any democracy, in my opinion, but that's sort of irrelevant as there's most likely no such thing.

Thus far, democracy is the best we have but it isn't just "not perfect"... it's crap. It's speeches, lies, smear campaigns and propaganda. All of it. I'm an SNP supporter but I will freely admit that there's a LOT of SNP propaganda that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The way this general election campaign was conducted by the major parties was absolutely foul. Both campaigning on fear, both getting personal, barely a sniff of "here's what we will actually DO", just a clawing rabble all desperate to get into power.

I can accept the outcome of the election - I think it was inevitable, for multiple reasons - but I can't accept that we all just have to say "it is what it is" and keep quiet. "It's not perfect but this steaming pile of dung system is the best we have".

There has to be something better than this. A better system that actually works without the lies and the fear. And if people aren't willing to say "No, this is all bull****" we will never find it... we will continue this same pointless cycle until it all collapses.

What is the alternative though? Maybe being automatically out of the running next election for lying to get into government? Should there be parties at all? Maybe the government should be made up solely of independent candidates and Ministers who are actually qualified for particular areas like Minister for Health actually being a Doctor or working in the medical field etc.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What is the alternative though? Maybe being automatically out of the running next election for lying to get into government? Should there be parties at all? Maybe the government should be made up solely of independent candidates and Ministers who are actually qualified for particular areas like Minister for Health actually being a Doctor or working in the medical field etc.

I don't know what the alternative is Niamh! If I did I would be off building my utopia, not arsing around on TiBB . That's sort of the point though... I'm saying that just because it's the best we have, doesn't mean it's not completely awful. And it certainly doesn't mean that we should stop looking for better, or stop being angry at just how bad it is.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm quite disgusted at this thread. How people can justify this pathetic riot is amazing, but not wholly unexpected. I remember "protestors" throwing a fire extinguisher from the top of Tory HQ, luckily it didn't kill anyone but it was an extreme act of violence and yet people were still saying they had a point.

Don't like the result of the election? Let's riot, and some people who didn't get the election result they wanted will back us. I wonder how many of those rioters have a job? I'm guessing not many. And sadly for the people who went along to peacefully protest - because even if I don't agree with them I do uphold their right to peaceful protest - their message has been lost on the majority, overshadowed by the reckless acts of the few. But some people are backing them! Astonishing.

The thread is the most depressing indictment of the left I've seen for a while, and it's up against some stiff competition.

It doesn't say very much for me as to the right either with respect,
In fact I have had a real eye opener on this thread.
Those with left views are also condemning the defacing of the war memorial too if you notice, (not just the right are), I am one of them.

Those from the right who are quite willing to jump in and condemn rightly the few people who did wrong on this protest march.
Who then choose to avoid the chance to then show any compassion whatsoever as to the cuts and wrong of those cuts,from this govt; as to the most vulnerable.

That says it all as to the so called right for me, I am disgusted for 2 reasons, (1) at the attitude of the few who defaced the war memorial during this march,and (2),the attitudes of those who show scant or no regard for the most vulnerable of this country, as to the real and unjustified misery they are going to face,from the govt; they likely support, and very soon for years too.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Germyle

Same difference. I'm not happy with the result (didn't vote conservatives) but nevertheless; let's not forget that David Cameron has young children who are probably very scared right now

I can't sympathise with that when there's thousands of people with scared children that risk losing their homes, livelihoods and healthcare because of these cuts.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But you're never going to get a party having over 50% in a multi-party system, its not happened since 1931 in this country when politics really was a two party affair. And even if you put together Labour voters, SNP voters, Green voters and every Lib Dem voter, that doesn't even make up 50% of the vote. If we absolutely insist on talking about national vote share well then the right of centre parties in the Tories, Ukip, the DUP and the UUP got just about over 50% of the national vote.

The SNP have managed to take 50% of the vote in Scotland,in a multi party election.

I accept that parties except in a freak election probably,cannot get 50% of the vote but the votes for the 2 parties have fallen every decade and now over the last decade in 3 elections,neither party has exceeded 37% of the vote and more to the point,both main parties have not even secured just 70% of the total votes cast between them.

It used to be called the magic 40% figure,for elections.
Neither main party has got even just a dead 40% since 2001.

I feel now, that is unacceptable and unsustainable and if the UK really wants people to vote more,then they have to see that their votes do count and that out of every 10 voters that vote, a govt; cannot be elected to absolute power,by actually taking less than 4 of those voters out of every 10.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Nothing to say about Kirk describing how he would like to shoot people or see them gunned down? Nothing at all Livia? ...Not a peep? No?

Thought not.

Again the focus is being dragged away from the point which is obviously less about the party and more about the austerity cuts.
Which is the objective of the media to whip up some smokescreen to obscure the facts.... aren't they doing well?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Nothing to say about Kirk describing how he would like to shoot people or see them gunned down? Nothing at all Livia? ...Not a peep? No?

Thought not.

I agree.
That was an unbelievable statement to make.

An equally totally wrong comment but chosen to be avoided while eagerly making another dig at those on the left.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't know what the alternative is Niamh! If I did I would be off building my utopia, not arsing around on TiBB . That's sort of the point though... I'm saying that just because it's the best we have, doesn't mean it's not completely awful. And it certainly doesn't mean that we should stop looking for better, or stop being angry at just how bad it is.

No wonder Gove is tasked with removing the human rights act if he had his way he'd bring back hanging... Seeing as his mate IDS is being prosecuted for human rights offences he better move fast or he's effectively sentenced his colleague to death

That's how bad it is.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

The SNP have managed to take 50% of the vote in Scotland,in a multi party election.

I accept that govts; except in a freak election probably,cannot get 50% of the vote but the votes for the 2 parties have fallen every decade and now over the last decade in 3 elections,neither party has exceeded 37% of the vote and more to the point,both main parties have not even secured just 70% of the total votes cast between them.

It used to be called the magic 40% figure,for elections.
Neither main party has got even just a dead 40% since 2001.

I feel now, that is unacceptable and unsustainable and if the UK really wants people to vote more,then they have to see that their votes do count and that out of every 10 voters that vote, a govt; cannot be elected to absolute power,by actually taking less than 4 of those voters out of every 10.

I'll be very surprised if that ever gets replicated again though even in Scotland. I accept there could be a debate to be had over electoral reform even though I do think our system works well in combining the national with the local in allowing regions to choose the representative of their interests, the fact remains that the majority of constituencies did democratically elect a Conservative MP. But we could debate different electoral systems till the cows come home, there are clear benefits to each system available and clear drawbacks.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

The SNP have managed to take 50% of the vote in Scotland,in a multi party election.

I accept that parties except in a freak election probably,cannot get 50% of the vote but the votes for the 2 parties have fallen every decade and now over the last decade in 3 elections,neither party has exceeded 37% of the vote and more to the point,both main parties have not even secured just 70% of the total votes cast between them.

It used to be called the magic 40% figure,for elections.
Neither main party has got even just a dead 40% since 2001.

I feel now, that is unacceptable and unsustainable and if the UK really wants people to vote more,then they have to see that their votes do count and that out of every 10 voters that vote, a govt; cannot be elected to absolute power,by actually taking less than 4 of those voters out of every 10.

The only way to have a election system more reflective of % votes is through some form of PR system. To get 40% or more votes in multi party politics is going to be next to impossible.

I've said it before, the UK was given the choice of a new system and they said NO. To try and diminish that result by saying other issues were more important or whatever is not supportive of democracy .... again. Democracy is not something you can pick up and forget as it suits.

All that being said, we have a democracy, people can lobby for change, and if they get the required support it will change. But all i see is bleating, yes, i repeat bleating, because people can't accept the result of a democratic election. Its disgusting. If people didn't want something they wouldn't have voted for it.

In a democracy, it is everyones right to have their view respected. People voted for the conservatives IN THE MAJORITY - that is the will of the people

[Kazanne]

I am a teaching assistant,my brother is a firefighter,and I believe they are in for some cuts,so it will affect me and him,but I am not throwing a tantrum,if the time comes,I will deal with it,find another job and get on with life,afterall I am sure they don't make these cuts just to piss people off and make them poor,no one would go out of their way to make themselves unpopular.My mother also looks after a disabled gentleman,who has no savings as such,but his social workers make sure he lives comfortable and gets the help he needs,I think a lot of scare mongering is flying about.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I am a teaching assistant,my brother is a firefighter,and I believe they are in for some cuts,so it will affect me and him,but I am not throwing a tantrum,if the time comes,I will deal with it,find another job and get on with life,afterall I am sure they don't make these cuts just to piss people off and make them poor,no one would go out of their way to make themselves unpopular.My mother also looks after a disabled gentleman,who has no savings as such,but his social workers make sure he lives comfortable and gets the help he needs,I think a lot of scare mongering is flying about.

Yes a lot on Threads like this

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I am a teaching assistant,my brother is a firefighter,and I believe they are in for some cuts,so it will affect me and him,but I am not throwing a tantrum,if the time comes,I will deal with it,find another job and get on with life,afterall I am sure they don't make these cuts just to piss people off and make them poor,no one would go out of their way to make themselves unpopular.My mother also looks after a disabled gentleman,who has no savings as such,but his social workers make sure he lives comfortable and gets the help he needs,I think a lot of scare mongering is flying about.

And if she loses her job?...

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I am a teaching assistant,my brother is a firefighter,and I believe they are in for some cuts,so it will affect me and him,but I am not throwing a tantrum,if the time comes,I will deal with it,find another job and get on with life,afterall I am sure they don't make these cuts just to piss people off and make them poor,no one would go out of their way to make themselves unpopular.My mother also looks after a disabled gentleman,who has no savings as such,but his social workers make sure he lives comfortable and gets the help he needs,I think a lot of scare mongering is flying about.

Yeah,thank you for that, I would go about scaremongering.
I think not.

I am horrified at the situations I have come across and thank god the gentleman you mention has good social care where you are.

For the vast majority.that is nothing like the case, real necessary social care is in no way available, a situation made greatly worse by the cuts the last govt; made as to social care,with now even more to come.

[Jemal]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Again the focus is being dragged away from the point which is obviously less about the party and more about the austerity cuts.
Which is the objective of the media to whip up some smokescreen to obscure the facts.... aren't they doing well?

[Crimson Dynamo]

which cuts in the future are some people on here crystal ball reading?

have i missed something?