[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Kizzy;8298637] "Apologists... That is a very interesting word, it for me anyway denigrates anyone who attempts to see the issue from all angles."

For you, the word 'Apologist' might do so - that is hardly surprising to me - but I USE the word in its CORRECT meaning; to define 'anyone who defends the actions of 'something' which is controversial' and when I deliberately precede the word 'Apologist' with the word 'Terrorist', then my use of the term 'Terrorist Apologist' means EXACTLY what I intend it to mean - ANYONE WHO DEFENDS TERRORISM'.

A 'Terrorist Apologist' means exactly that, and does NOT mean 'anyone who attempts to see the issue from all angles'.

Not in my logical, rational world anyway.

"'such is the cost of war' is not an adequate response to the severity of the reality of war it simplifies the horror of it, and the ramifications following any military involvement."

As everyone on here knows - I am no disciple of brevity, because, by definition, 'Serious Debates' cannot usually be satisfactorily addressed by a few 'sound bites' or copy-pasta.

However, there are occasions when it is simply not feasible to extend already lengthy posts or response posts by expounding side points or incidental issues of which - one assumes - the reader already has at least cursory knowledge.

So to accuse me of not 'giving an adequate response' etc in my comment on the 'side' issue of war, is frankly mere disingenuous deflection and 'straw clutching'

"It's not stupidity personified to question whether the west inadvertently made a bad situation worse due to said involvement, in a rational, logical world that's what people do they look at all the variables."

With respect, you are once again deliberately and dishonestly misrepresenting what I said, because I DID NOT state what you claim I stated above, I ACTUALLY clearly statedThat our intervention in) "Iraq was WRONG. Blair and Bush were WRONG, but they are but contributary factors and to claim that any mistakes which the WEST makes is RESPONSIBLE for ISIS or any other type of terrorism is stupidity personified."

What I actually said is so very easily verified on here by anyone who wishes to check and it bears NO resemblance to your ridiculous claim of what I said. But hey, I am finally getting used to your misrepresentations as a cover to obscure the fact you have no real argument - as tiresome as it is.

"There are in your analogies a consequence, had the girl and the lady been better prepared or taken an alternative route the outcome would have perhaps been different for them... Why is it so wrong to suggest that in reference to our naked streaking across Afghanistan or spilling our cash all over Syria?"

Again you illustrate by your confused and confusing text above, that you simply DO NOT UNDERSTAND what has been said, because the WHOLE point of my analogies which you allude to, is that; while both the young girl and the old woman can be said to have CONTRIBUTED to the terrible outcomes by their "ERROR OF JUDGEMENTS" - NEITHER CAN BE ACCUSED OF CAUSING THOSE OUTCOMES, and it is wrong to accuse them of such instead of laying the REAL blame were it so obviously belongs -- AT THE FEET OF THE EVIL PERPETRATORS.

Which is the same as in RED blaming the WEST instead of the evil twisted terrorist butchers.

In my logical, rational world anyway.

Now I am no more personally attacking you than you have me. I am merely responding, once again, to a response of yours to a post of mine which was NOT directed to you - a post in which you once again misrepresent and distort the truth of what I said.

It is futile to discuss if we do not start from a premise of truth.

- ANYONE WHO DEFENDS TERRORISM'.

And yet nobody has....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

OFFS:

I write:

'The founder of Islam - Muhammud himself - carried out Jihad 1400 years ago, incorporated it into the Quran, where it is mentioned over 160 times (in my version of the Qran it is) and it has been an intrinsic part of Islam ever since, and virtually solely responsible for its unparalleled spread across the globe.'

To which your response is:

"Thinking about this, if this were true how have we in the west lived cheek by jowl with Muslim communities for centuries?"


Are you REALLY being SERIOUS? "if this were true"???????????????

Why don't you research and learn your subject matter before continuously dissing and contadicting with, and sniping at, the perfectably legitimate well-intentioned posts of those members who do know their subject matter?

OF COURSE IT'S TRUE.

As for the rest of your post - What the hell does it mean?

I live next to Bradford, as have my family for generations.... how then have we never been the target of any jihad?
I'm not dissing you, I'm asking for an explanation, the rest of my post was scripture.
It's Muhammad btw.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

How can ANYONE misrepresent the fact that Muhammud INITIATED JIHAD, incorporated it into the QRAN, and that MUSLIMS carried it out for 1400 years?

Are you DENYING EVERY SINGLE COPY of the QURAN itself?

Are you denying the HISTORICAL RECORDS of MUSLIMS themselves?

This is yet more sad deflection, and I for one would be pleased if you merely addressed my post. It was you after all who said you would welcome anyone debating with you.

To play devil's abracadabra... Perhaps people can "misrepresent" that fact in exactly the same way that members of every other religion misrepresent, reinterpret, or outright deny large chunks of their holy texts which are just as out there bat**** bonkers?

You know, like the Christians who want to pretend that it's suddenly OK to be gay or that we shouldn't kill adulterers, or that there aren't countless examples of God being petty, vengeful and violent, etc., or that there hasn't been oceans of blood spilled in the name of Christianity, When it's all quite clearly written there in black and white?

Not that I'm actually defending the Quran here or any other aspect of Islam or any other religion... I'm just saying, there's this hilarious hypocrisy afoot here in the West when people bleat "look! Look what it says in this evil Muslim book!!" and insist upon taking every word literally, whilst at the same time insisting blue-in-the-face that their own violent little book is "open to interpretation"

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To play devil's abracadabra... Perhaps people can "misrepresent" that fact in exactly the same way that members of every other religion misrepresent, reinterpret, or outright deny large chunks of their holy texts which are just as out there bat**** bonkers?

You know, like the Christians who want to pretend that it's suddenly OK to be gay or that we shouldn't kill adulterers, or that there aren't countless examples of God being petty, vengeful and violent, etc., or that there hasn't been oceans of blood spilled in the name of Christianity, When it's all quite clearly written there in black and white?

Not that I'm actually defending the Quran here or any other aspect of Islam or any other religion... I'm just saying, there's this hilarious hypocrisy afoot here in the West when people bleat "look! Look what it says in this evil Muslim book!!" and insist upon taking every word literally, whilst at the same time insisting blue-in-the-face that their own violent little book is "open to interpretation"

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To play devil's abracadabra... Perhaps people can "misrepresent" that fact in exactly the same way that members of every other religion misrepresent, reinterpret, or outright deny large chunks of their holy texts which are just as out there bat**** bonkers?

You know, like the Christians who want to pretend that it's suddenly OK to be gay or that we shouldn't kill adulterers, or that there aren't countless examples of God being petty, vengeful and violent, etc., or that there hasn't been oceans of blood spilled in the name of Christianity, When it's all quite clearly written there in black and white?

Not that I'm actually defending the Quran here or any other aspect of Islam or any other religion... I'm just saying, there's this hilarious hypocrisy afoot here in the West when people bleat "look! Look what it says in this evil Muslim book!!" and insist upon taking every word literally, whilst at the same time insisting blue-in-the-face that their own violent little book is "open to interpretation"

Good luck, been trying to hammer that point home for days

[Niamh.]

Closed for cleaning....yet again people just can't stop discussing eachother instead of the topic of the thread

[Niamh.]

That's the second time I've had to clean this thread, next time I close it I'm not reopening it

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To play devil's abracadabra... Perhaps people can "misrepresent" that fact in exactly the same way that members of every other religion misrepresent, reinterpret, or outright deny large chunks of their holy texts which are just as out there bat**** bonkers?

You know, like the Christians who want to pretend that it's suddenly OK to be gay or that we shouldn't kill adulterers, or that there aren't countless examples of God being petty, vengeful and violent, etc., or that there hasn't been oceans of blood spilled in the name of Christianity, When it's all quite clearly written there in black and white?

Not that I'm actually defending the Quran here or any other aspect of Islam or any other religion... I'm just saying, there's this hilarious hypocrisy afoot here in the West when people bleat "look! Look what it says in this evil Muslim book!!" and insist upon taking every word literally, whilst at the same time insisting blue-in-the-face that their own violent little book is "open to interpretation"

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To play devil's abracadabra... Perhaps people can "misrepresent" that fact in exactly the same way that members of every other religion misrepresent, reinterpret, or outright deny large chunks of their holy texts which are just as out there bat**** bonkers?

You know, like the Christians who want to pretend that it's suddenly OK to be gay or that we shouldn't kill adulterers, or that there aren't countless examples of God being petty, vengeful and violent, etc., or that there hasn't been oceans of blood spilled in the name of Christianity, When it's all quite clearly written there in black and white?

Not that I'm actually defending the Quran here or any other aspect of Islam or any other religion... I'm just saying, there's this hilarious hypocrisy afoot here in the West when people bleat "look! Look what it says in this evil Muslim book!!" and insist upon taking every word literally, whilst at the same time insisting blue-in-the-face that their own violent little book is "open to interpretation"

The question of violence within the Holy Books of all religions in general has NOTHING whatsover to do with the subjects under 'debate' (Lol ) on this thread - which is specifically Islamic terrorism and Jihad - and if you want to debate Christianity or the contents of the Judeo Christian bible, why don't you start a seperate thread and I will gladly contribute to it.

We have, however, debated/discussed/argued the above subjects several times on other threads but I am willing to retread that path if you like.



The violence in the 3,500 year old Old Testament is 'close ended' violence which is 'of its time' and 'era specific'.

Where today are there any 'Amorites' or 'Perizites' for Christians or Jews to go out and slay?

The Quran, however contains over 160 commands for its followers to go out and behead and slay, in addition to other commands to abduct and sell into slavery.

Whilst there have been, and still are, inhuman extremists who claim to be 'Christian', just as there have always been, and still are, inhuman extremists who are atheists, in light of the terrible atrocities being perpetrated over most of the globe by inhuman extremists who claim to be Muslim, it is absolutely ridiculous and infantile to jocularly suggest that any person of other faiths who condemn it or even discuss it, are hypocrites.

[the truth]

The new testament is a whole world away from the old and this is where Jesus came in to bring us some much needed enlightenment. However The wrathful side of God you mention is present in the old testament. The commandments in the Bible there are all about honour and love, not slaying masses of people.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

The new testament is a whole world away from the old and this is where Jesus came in to bring us some much needed enlightenment. However The wrathful side of God you mention is present in the old testament. The commandments in the Bible there are all about honour and love, not slaying masses of people.

Throughout history, both Christians and Muslims have brought about great wars and massacres in the name of religion. The New Testament doesn't get off scot free; the the Catholics sent Buddhists to the death camps during and after the Vietnam war, I don't remember how many were murdered but I know it was over a million. It wasn't so long ago a dictator singled out and murdered six million Jews in the name of Christianity. Although Hitler himself despised religion, religion is what he used to turn his country against the Jews.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/...christian.html

Let it be said, I condemn no religion. People spend their lives studying and living their faiths in peaceful harmony with their everyday life. Others take certain scriptures and twist them until they are only recognizable by their own evil congregation.

Just as some people should never touch alcohol, some should never touch religion.

[Anaesthesia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Throughout history, both Christians and Muslims have brought about great wars and massacres in the name of religion.

Let it be said, I condemn no religion. People spend their lives studying and living their faiths in peaceful harmony with their everyday life. Others take certain scriptures and twist them until they are only recognizable by their own evil congregation.

Just as some people should never touch alcohol, some should never touch religion.

Sorry to cut your post Red, because I thought it was great. Likewise, although mostly a watcher myself, I have seen people on here with wonderfully brilliant ideas and opinions; young or old, black or white; this religion or that religion, left or right...everyone is welcome here, this forum I mean. Even when you all get ****ty with each other

My point is, we are all one people against these subhumans: My masterplan would be for everyone, differences put aside, to unite against this THING, bring in the refugees with proven security, the genuine muslims are already against IS. Show your humanity to people who want nothing more than to dissociate themselves from these who claim their acions are for Islam. The huge ISIS thing is territory control and psychological warfare... the Paris / Baghdad / Turkey / Insert next country / attacks create a climate of fear.

Take a look, we are all one side against ISIS. The sooner we start working with that recognition, the sooner we (meaning, the entire rest of the non-IS world) can blast the fckin hell out of ISIS occupied territory (let's take out Boko Harum too) and deal with what's left by our own means.

Just let the poor bast***s who are trying to get out for genuine reasons, get out. And, as is frequently said, families first.

[Anaesthesia]

I'm obviously no hippie...but look at this picture below in light of the beautiful father / son interview in the Paris attacks thread; les fleurs et les bougies..sont pour nous proteger [sic]

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The question of violence within the Holy Books of all religions in general has NOTHING whatsover to do with the subjects under 'debate' (Lol ) on this thread - which is specifically Islamic terrorism and Jihad - and if you want to debate Christianity or the contents of the Judeo Christian bible, why don't you start a seperate thread and I will gladly contribute to it.

We have, however, debated/discussed/argued the above subjects several times on other threads but I am willing to retread that path if you like.



The violence in the 3,500 year old Old Testament is 'close ended' violence which is 'of its time' and 'era specific'.

Where today are there any 'Amorites' or 'Perizites' for Christians or Jews to go out and slay?

The Quran, however contains over 160 commands for its followers to go out and behead and slay, in addition to other commands to abduct and sell into slavery.

Whilst there have been, and still are, inhuman extremists who claim to be 'Christian', just as there have always been, and still are, inhuman extremists who are atheists, in light of the terrible atrocities being perpetrated over most of the globe by inhuman extremists who claim to be Muslim, it is absolutely ridiculous and infantile to jocularly suggest that any person of other faiths who condemn it or even discuss it, are hypocrites.

The subject of the thread is how you would deal with terrorism if you were leader of the US or EU... Nothing to do with Islam or Jihad

[empire]

well we have two paths to follow, one, we go for the left wing policy of pandering to religious extremist nutters with diversity, and enforce religious tolarance laws that make sure you can't fight back with your words, or we go the other path of protecting your country, and also are values and culture identity, and make sure that are patriotism keeps are citizens alive, we need a tough right party that will put their countries citizens first and safe, no more softy softy red pro terroist talk, its time we threw out people who hate the west and don't want to be part of are culture, first lets kick out the extremist preachers, who suck of the tax payers money,

[Anaesthesia]

Originally Posted by empire

well we have two paths to follow, one, we go for the left wing policy of pandering to religious extremist nutters with diversity, and enforce religious tolarance laws that make sure you can't fight back with your words, or we go the other path of protecting your country, and also are values and culture identity, and make sure that are patriotism keeps are citizens alive, we need a tough right party that will put their countries citizens first and safe, no more softy softy red pro terroist talk, its time we threw out people who hate the west and don't want to be part of are culture, first lets kick out the extremist preachers, who suck of the tax payers money,

No we don't have only two paths, and insular thinking will never achieve anything.