[Livia]

Originally Posted by smudgie

As long as it doesn't clash with the law of the land and all that are involved in it agree to abide by it I see no problem.
I think of it more like arbitration, try to keep everyone happy without massive legal fees.

That's exactly it, Smudgie. Jewish courts have been operating in the UK for centuries. Of course no law can overturn English law so any other system must run parallel with the legal system and not contravene it.

[kirklancaster]

Though it may APPEAR to be similar to Sharia in INTENT, Beth Din is totally different to Sharia in IMPLEMENTATION and EXECUTION.

Unlike the totally benign and transparent Beth Din, Sharia Law is sinister and is used to cloak continued 'gender discrimination' and the most extreme abuses of Muslim women just as surely as the Burka is used to cloak the body and face.

There is irrefutable evidence dating back decades from abused and desperate Muslim women themselves as to the reality of what living IN THE UK under Sharia means for them and it is time this Law was banned.

I provide a link for anyone interested in the truth:

http://www.bowgroup.org/sites/bowgro...%2003%2015.pdf

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Livia

That's exactly it, Smudgie. Jewish courts have been operating in the UK for centuries. Of course no law can overturn English law so any other system must run parallel with the legal system and not contravene it.

..I love a good Jewish court, me...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I love a good Jewish court, me...

I actually FANCY old Judy.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I actually FANCY old Judy.

.....(everyone fancies Judge Judy, Kirk..)...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

.....(everyone fancies Judge Judy, Kirk..)...

True Ammi. She reminds me of a vintage actress called Susan Hayward.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I actually FANCY old Judy.

Baloney!

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Baloney!

So YOU watch her show too Paul.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I love a good Jewish court, me...

Judge Judy is my hero


as for the thread topic, I don't know alot about Sharia Law but surely in a democratic country the only law that should apply is the Law of the land. I also agree with Kirk in that what I do know of Sharia law does sound very gender biased. Women over this side of the world have had to fight hard to get our rights, encouraging steps backwards is a bad thing imo

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Though it may APPEAR to be similar to Sharia in INTENT, Beth Din is totally different to Sharia in IMPLEMENTATION and EXECUTION.

Unlike the totally benign and transparent Beth Din, Sharia Law is sinister and is used to cloak continued 'gender discrimination' and the most extreme abuses of Muslim women just as surely as the Burka is used to cloak the body and face.

There is irrefutable evidence dating back decades from abused and desperate Muslim women themselves as to the reality of what living IN THE UK under Sharia means for them and it is time this Law was banned.

I provide a link for anyone interested in the truth:

http://www.bowgroup.org/sites/bowgro...%2003%2015.pdf

That's if your community is progressive enough to have women serving on the Beth Din.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

So YOU watch her show too Paul.

I used to.She's a hard woman.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I used to.She's a hard woman.

You LOVE hard women.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's if your community is progressive enough to have women serving on the Beth Din.

Whether women serve or not though, there are no horror stories of Domestic Abuse, subjugation and violence, or unfair and unequal treatment issuing from Jewish women over Beth Din as they do all too frequently from Muslim women over Sharia Law. If you can provide documentary evidence that Beth Din is fraught with the same problems as Sharia is - as evidenced below - then please do post it.

In the meantime, you should read these Muslim women's views:

SAMI - BACKGROUN

“The wellbeing of the majority is more important than the sensitivity of the minority”.

Sami, born and raised in the Middle East, married very young. She had four children and took on the role of a housewife. When her husband died, she was left with no inheritance as the male members of her family were legally
entitled to her inheritance and her two daughters were forced into marriage at the age of 16 by her male family members. Meanwhile her third daughter fled a forced marriage, whilst her son escaped to Jordan at the age of 11,
alone. Sami eventually sought asylum in the UK when her life was in danger following her controversial position as a women’s rights journalist in a country dictated by a patriarchal regime.

Sami: My Marriage Dictated by Sharia Law in the UK

“A leader of my community visited me and told me that he wanted me to marry Khaled. I felt under enormous pressure to accept his proposal.
The Imam told Khaled and me that he required permission from a male guardian from my family before he could marry us. I told him that I am in my late 40s, I have travelled all over the world, faced death on numerous occasions, provided for my children and supported male members of my family. “I have grey hair – what kind of mentality is this?” I said to him.
The Imam insisted that he was applying Islam.

Khaled travelled to Jordan to gain written permission from my 11-year-old son, who represented my guardian according to the Imam. My son’s written permission stated that I could marry Khaled. I received a copy of my son’s letter and I still have a copy of it. I agreed to the marriage at the Imam’s home.

On reflection, I decided that I could not marry him due to his traditional mentality. I gained an annulment.

Everyone should be made to abide by the same rules. Women’s rights are compromised by the operation of Sharia law in the UK. Sharia Councils often permit polygamy. Men have multiple Nikahs (Muslim marriages) and have multiple wives to gain sex and/or money. Polygamy is not about protecting women.

If women marry through an Imam and they eventually have a problem with their marriage, they will be forced to go back to an Imam and discuss the problem; these women feel intimidated. Many women are unable to discuss their personal issues with an Imam; they feel embarrassed and do not feel comfortable talking to a total stranger about personal issues.

I am in contact with large numbers of women who have a language barrier. They are not in contact with the wider community and they have no understanding of the laws available to them. Instead they believe the lies that their husbands tell them. These women, unable to speak English, are tied to unhappy marriages and have no way of accessing their rights.
If a legal dispute arises they go to a Sharia Council and consult an Imam, they are not aware of the English legal system, nor are they ever informed of their rights under English laws.

Like me, many Muslim women are asylum seekers. They have fled their home country to live a safe life, they are running away from oppression and persecution that they suffered in their home country. They should not arrive in the UK to be met with further oppression through the operation of Sharia law. The Government should ensure that everyone in the UK abides by the English legal system.

For these reasons I am totally against Sharia law in the UK. The law should not be left to religious men to manipulate women in a democratic state. It is the responsibility of the Government to make sure that everyone in the UK submits to the law equally. I am worried because the Government and people outside the Muslim community are frightened to address
sensitive issues like Sharia law, when the wellbeing of the majority is more important that the sensitivity of the minority.”

SARA'S BACKGROUND

"People argue that Sharia Councils should be allowed to operate in Britain because Britain allows Beth Din systems, but Jewish Law does not affect mainstream life as much as Sharia Law which aims to control rather than simply affect mainstream life".

Sara, a British national, was forced into a marriage with Abdul, from Pakistan, in order for Abdul to gain British citizenship. Eventually she became pregnant with Abdul’s child in Pakistan and was allowed to return to the UK to await her husband’s arrival. The marriage soon broke down on Abdul’s arrival. Sara ensured Abdul returned to Pakistan before ending their marriage and cancelling his spousal visa. Sara rapidly gained a civil divorce through the British courts.

Sara: My Sharia Council Experience

“In early 2000 I applied to an Islamic-Sharia Council in London to obtain a Sharia divorce. Despite all the time, money and emotional energy that I spent, and the fact that Abdul is remarried with a child, over 10 years later the Islamic-Sharia Council still refuse to give me an Islamic divorce.

The Sharia Council ‘judges’ did not listen to a word I had to say. They did not look at me when they were talking to me, rather they would look at the floor. It was awful. I felt like a second class citizen.

I took a copy of my civil divorce to the Sharia Council. However they were not interested in this information. They explained that they wanted Abdul to present his case.

The first time the Sharia Council wrote to me they pressurised me to go back to Abdul and continue the marriage despite my protests. After I refused to reconcile with Abdul, the Sharia Council wrote to me a second time and told me that I should continue living as married and not apply for a divorce. I told them this was an unsatisfactory resolution.

The Sharia Council eventually wrote to me for the third time and informed me that they would only grant me a divorce if I agreed to the following conditions:

1. To sign an affidavit, a legal document which stated that I would allow Abdul to have access to my daughter. I had to agree to pay for Abdul to visit England once a year to see our daughter and to pay for my daughter to visit Pakistan once a year to have contact with Abdul. I simply could not afford this.

2. I must agree to a ‘cooling off’ period to see whether the marriage could be reconciled. I explained that I had not seen Abdul in five years and that I just wanted to obtain an Islamic divorce and to move on with my life.
During my civil divorce, Abdul wrote a long letter to my solicitor stating that he had no intention of providing financially for
our child. This letter was used as evidence in the England and Wales courts and was thus extremely helpful in gaining a civil divorce. When I showed the same letter to the Sharia Council they informed me that the letter was not relevant to my case.

The registration fee cost Ł100. The Sharia Council would then ask me to pay Ł30 for every letter they wrote. The Sharia Council asked me to pay a further Ł200 so that my case could be heard before the panel. I refused to pay any more money.

Within six months of applying for the civil divorce I gained a decree absolute. The civil route certainly upheld my rights as a woman. The civil route was so easy and more importantly, I was respected.

People argue that Sharia Councils should be allowed to operate in Britain because Britain allows Beth Din systems, but Jewish Law does not affect mainstream life as much as Sharia Law which aims to control rather than simply affect mainstream life. For example, in inheritance disputes, women will still gain a lesser proportion of property according to Sharia law.”

And here is just a couple of Muslim Organisations who wholeheartedly support the bill:

"We fully support the Bill. Sharia law discriminates against women and children and puts those who have experienced violence and abuse at further risk. Its rulings are incompatible with UK legislation including the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, the Children Act 1989 and the Human Rights Act 1998." -- IKWRO (Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organisation)

"Karma Nirvana fully supports the Bill as it will raise women’s voices and enable them to gain their rights. Women must be aware of the UK legal system to resolve matters and to seek legal redress." -- Jasvinder Sanghera, Karma Nirvana.

[Johnnyuk123]

Sharia law has no place in the UK.