[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

NICOLA
(Frostily)
Because you English and Welsh have forced we Scots
to exit the Eu, when we want to remain.

NIGEL
(With bemusement)
But that's Democracy Nicola...And anyway, 39% of Scots
voted to leave.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

How do you educe that? Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom.

My little satirical sketch demonstrates nothing more than the fact that Nicola Sturgeon is one huge hypocrite. It is a satirical sketch but like all satire uses humour to expose truth.

How, and, where, does it demonstrate that I regard Scotland a 'region of England'?

In your example it is only democracy if you don't consider the Scottish vote as a separate entity; it is "democracy" across the UK. As a separate consideration, 38% of Scots voted to leave vs a clear majority of 62% voting to stay, and yet Scotland is out anyway, which is a clear failure of democracy (for Scotland) just as having a Tory government is a failure for Scotland when a clear majority does not want one.

Taking Scotland as a separate entity, all your actually doing is demonstrating perfectly how being part of the UK represents the OPPOSITE of "good democracy" for Scotland. We vote, our desires are clear, we get stuck with the thing that we didn't want anyway. English decisions will demonstrably always over-ride Scottish desires. Scotland does not have democracy. The only way for Scotland to have democracy, as an individual nation, is to be separate from England.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

In your example it is only democracy if you don't consider the Scottish vote as a separate entity; it is "democracy" across the UK. As a separate consideration, 38% of Scots voted to leave vs a clear majority of 62% voting to stay, and yet Scotland is out anyway, which is a clear failure of democracy (for Scotland) just as having a Tory government is a failure for Scotland when a clear majority does not want one.

Taking Scotland as a separate entity, all your actually doing is demonstrating perfectly how being part of the UK represents the OPPOSITE of "good democracy" for Scotland. We vote, our desires are clear, we get stuck with the thing that we didn't want anyway. English decisions will demonstrably always over-ride Scottish desires. Scotland does not have democracy. The only way for Scotland to have democracy, as an individual nation, is to be separate from England.

I think that you are greatly confused:

The 'Scottish vote' is NOT a 'seperate entity', and here's why:

Because Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom, then the vote of any Scottish people in The UK EU Referendum, constitutes a vote by BRITISH subjects - the fact that they are Scottish and live in Scotland is irrelevant in this context, other than for simple identification purposes.

Being British subjects, Scottish people are constitutionally bound - in a Democracy - to accept the majority concensus in any election or referendum, exactly as English, Welsh and Northern Irish people have to.

Now, IF Scotland was ALREADY an INDEPENDENT COUNTRY, and 62% of Scottish people voted to become a member of the EU in a Scottish EU Referendum, against 38% of Scottish people who voted to stay out of the EU, then those 38% would be constitionally bound - in a Democracy - to accept the majority concensus.

Which is EXACTLY what the point of my satire is.

In a seperate Scotland which boasted Democracy, the minority in any official election or referendum, are going to be compelled to accept the majority concensus.

So Nicola Sturgeon, as Prime Minister of an independent Scotland, would be FORCING upon the MINORITY, or LOSING voters, the WILL of the MAJORITY, or WINNING voters - which is EXACTLY what the silly cow is whining about now.

As to your grouse about; "We vote, our desires are clear, we get stuck with the thing that we didn't want anyway." this is because you are a BRITISH subject living in a DEMOCRACY - the same as the rest of us English, Northern Irish, and Welsh subjects. Some of us, are often among the minority in elections, but we are bound to accept such a fact. I did not vote for Cameron and the Tories for instance, nor did I ever vote to join the Common Market/EU.

I WANT Scotland to hold another Independence Referendum, and if she does, and the result is that she gains her independence, then all well and good. I have no arguments.

Until then, however, you and the rest of Scotland are NOT independent, and as such, you are bound by the same laws and regulations as the rest of us.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

NICOLA
(Frostily)
Because you English and Welsh have forced we Scots
to exit the Eu, when we want to remain.

NIGEL
(With bemusement)
But that's Democracy Nicola...And anyway, 39% of Scots
voted to leave.

Nigel shrugs.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Kirk aptly demonstrating that in his opinion, Scotland is simply a region of England.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I think that you are greatly confused:

The 'Scottish vote' is NOT a 'seperate entity', and here's why:

Because Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom, then the vote of any Scottish people in The UK EU Referendum, constitutes a vote by BRITISH subjects - the fact that they are Scottish and live in Scotland is irrelevant in this context, other than for simple identification purposes.

Being British subjects, Scottish people are constitutionally bound - in a Democracy - to accept the majority concensus in any election or referendum, exactly as English, Welsh and Northern Irish people have to.

Now, IF Scotland was ALREADY an INDEPENDENT COUNTRY, and 62% of Scottish people voted to become a member of the EU in a Scottish EU Referendum, against 38% of Scottish people who voted to stay out of the EU, then those 38% would be constitionally bound - in a Democracy - to accept the majority concensus.

Which is EXACTLY what the point of my satire is.

In a seperate Scotland which boasted Democracy, the minority in any official election or referendum, are going to be compelled to accept the majority concensus.

So Nicola Sturgeon, as Prime Minister of an independent Scotland, would be FORCING upon the MINORITY, or LOSING voters, the WILL of the MAJORITY, or WINNING voters - which is EXACTLY what the silly cow is whining about now.

As to your grouse about; "We vote, our desires are clear, we get stuck with the thing that we didn't want anyway." this is because you are a BRITISH subject living in a DEMOCRACY - the same as the rest of us English, Northern Irish, and Welsh subjects. Some of us, are often among the minority in elections, but we are bound to accept such a fact. I did not vote for Cameron and the Tories for instance, nor did I ever vote to join the Common Market/EU.

I WANT Scotland to hold another Independence Referendum, and if she does, and the result is that she gains her independence, then all well and good. I have no arguments.

Until then, however, you and the rest of Scotland are NOT independent, and as such, you are bound by the same laws and regulations as the rest of us.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Kirk aptly demonstrating that in his opinion, Scotland is simply a region of England.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The 'Scottish vote' is NOT a 'seperate entity'

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Kirk aptly demonstrating that in his opinion, Scotland is simply a region of England.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The 'Scottish vote' is NOT a 'seperate entity'

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Kirk aptly demonstrating that in his opinion, Scotland is simply a region of England.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

How do you educe that?

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The 'Scottish vote' is NOT a 'seperate entity'

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Kirk. Demonstrating. Opinion. Scotland is simply a region of England.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

How educe dat doe?

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The 'Scottish vote' is NOT a 'seperate entity'

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The 'Scottish vote' is NOT a 'seperate entity'

FFS Kirk you're breaking TiBB with your circular ****, you could just have admitted that I was right;

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Kirk aptly demonstrating that in his opinion, Scotland is simply a region of England.

in the first place

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

FFS Kirk you're breaking TiBB with your circular ****, you could just have admitted that I was right;



in the first place

I do not know what you are talking about T.S. - Do you? I know you are just stumped for a sensible answer because THERE isn't one.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I do not know what you are talking about T.S. - Do you? I know you are just stumped for a sensible answer because THERE isn't one.

Yes I do. I pointed out that you consider Scotland to be nothing more than a region of England, you suggested that this was not the case, then moments later confirmed explicitly that it IS the case.

Leaving me completely confused about why you argued against what I was saying in the first place . You could just have said, "Yep."

Instead, you said "No TS why would you think I am saying that?"

And then proceeded to say it again, even more specifically. Why bother?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes I do. I pointed out that you consider Scotland to be nothing more than a region of England, you suggested that this was not the case, then moments later confirmed explicitly that it IS the case.

Leaving me completely confused about why you argued against what I was saying in the first place . You could just have said, "Yep."

Instead, you said "No TS why would you think I am saying that?"

And then proceeded to say it again, even more specifically. Why bother?

You are embarrassing yourself T.S. - My posts ARE ALWAYS lucid. Yours, I'm afraid would - for the most part - baffle Einstein.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

You are embarrassing yourself T.S. - My posts ARE ALWAYS lucid. Yours, I'm afraid would - for the most part - baffle Einstein.

It's not my fault that your posts are basic, and my unrestrained train of thought would baffle the greatest minds in history . It's a curse, if anything...

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

In your example it is only democracy if you don't consider the Scottish vote as a separate entity; it is "democracy" across the UK. As a separate consideration, 38% of Scots voted to leave vs a clear majority of 62% voting to stay, and yet Scotland is out anyway, which is a clear failure of democracy (for Scotland) just as having a Tory government is a failure for Scotland when a clear majority does not want one.

Taking Scotland as a separate entity, all your actually doing is demonstrating perfectly how being part of the UK represents the OPPOSITE of "good democracy" for Scotland. We vote, our desires are clear, we get stuck with the thing that we didn't want anyway. English decisions will demonstrably always over-ride Scottish desires. Scotland does not have democracy. The only way for Scotland to have democracy, as an individual nation, is to be separate from England.

Absolutely right.

The UK is made up of 4 separate Nations, just because one has far more population should not diminish the voting power, status and rights of the others.

In this referendum and the PM has to take blame for not putting locks on how to make the result binding.
It should have been the separate wishes of the 4 Nations that was taken into account.

Otherwise what we have is a dictatorship over the other Nations of the UK where the larger populated one always rules supreme.
However the PM did not put any locks on the vote so this is where we are.

However yes England from its population voted to leave the EU.
Wales voted to leave the EU by 52.5% to 47.5%.

Northern Ireland voted 56% to 44% to remain in the EU and as you say Scotland voted 62% to 38% to remain also.

There was no majority of the Nations to leave but we are leaving only because of the voting strength of the population of England.
So Scotland has every right to feel democracy, 'true democracy that is', as to size not being the main factor but equality of status,, has been extremely ill served.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Absolutely right.

The UK is made up of 4 separate Nations, just because one has far more population should not diminish the voting power, status and rights of the others.

In this referendum and the PM has to take blame for not putting locks on how to make the result binding.
It should have been the separate wishes of the 4 Nations that was taken into account.

Otherwise what we have is a dictatorship over the other Nations of the UK where the larger populated one always rules supreme.
However the PM did not put any locks on the vote so this is where we are.

However yes England from its population voted to leave the EU.
Wales voted to leave the EU by 52.5% to 47.5%.

Northern Ireland voted 56% to 44% to remain in the EU and as you say Scotland voted 62% to 38% to remain also.

There was no majority of the Nations to leave but we are leaving only because of the voting strength of the population of England.
So Scotland has every right to feel democracy, 'true democracy that is', as to size not being the main factor but equality of status,, has been extremely ill served.

Sensible debate - Wherefore art thou?

I will not respond Joey, because I said it all in detail in the post which you and T.S seem to have so much diificulty with.

There is no debate to be had - it is all now TRUTHFULLY just a case of you following the threads and agreeing with whatever your cronies say - no matter how ludicrous that may be.

And you are the one who pledged acceptance of the DEMOCRATIC result of the Referendum.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Sensible debate - Wherefore art thou?

I will not respond Joey, because I said it all in detail in the post which you and T.S seem to have so much diificulty with.

There is no debate to be had - it is all now TRUTHFULLY just a case of you following the threads and agreeing with whatever your cronies say - no matter how ludicrous that may be.

And you are the one who pledged acceptance of the DEMOCRATIC result of the Referendum.

I personally am perfectly accepting of the result of the referendum, for England and Wales, who voted for it.

I personnally do not accept that Scotland vote should only matter in terms of it being a proportion of the overall vote because, as the figures show, the overall vote result is not representative of the wishes of Scottish people. I do not accept the premise that the result of last year's referendum result makes this the case, because that result was built on lies, including specifically (and importantly) lies about EU membership. Aside from the main bare-faced lie about extra powers (now truly dead in the water with the change of guard in Westminster), being "out of Europe" was used by the anti-independence campaign as a means to convince Scottish voters to remain in the UK... And then a year later the rUK votes us OUT of the EU? It's an absolute farce.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Sensible debate - Wherefore art thou?

I will not respond Joey, because I said it all in detail in the post which you and T.S seem to have so much diificulty with.

There is no debate to be had - it is all now TRUTHFULLY just a case of you following the threads and agreeing with whatever your cronies say - no matter how ludicrous that may be.

And you are the one who pledged acceptance of the DEMOCRATIC result of the Referendum.

I have done, I do not however have to agree with it Kirk, are you trying to imply that had this been the other way you would not still be pointing out what you see as wrongs of the EU.

I have no cronies on here, only friends Kirk,I will say when I agree with them and when I don't unlike some on here who can only keep getting at people with differing views.

I also said in the post, clearly you mustn't have read it all, in that post I said the PM should have put locks on the binding of the result but he didn't so this is where we are.

That is actually the best I will do in accepting this result as I still firmly believed despite respecting the views of the other side, that is it massively the wrong one.

So please don't lecture me on morals thank you.

It does not please me one bit that the UK may break up now,it does not please me one bit to see the Nation so divided,you may have won the vote but had 620,000 out of 33,500,000 voted the other way you would have lost it.
That is how close it was and that means divisions are strong.

Hearing and seeing People and then you and others gloating and cheering at the possible break up of the UK dismays me.
So much for really caring about a United Kingdom.

I said I accepted the vote,I never ever said I would agree with the result.

In that same post I am sure I even said I would now be re-thinking my position in the UK after this result.

You know what, you think what you like of me, I have respected your view even though you have regularly dismissed all my concerns.

Democracy is something that can be argued over endlessly but in the UK there are 4 Nations and 2 of those despite voting strongly, indeed more strongly to remain from their populations,as a percentage than the other 2 nations are being forced out of something they should have an equal say in, not a disproportionate one.

TS is not one of my cronies,nor actually is another you would cite, I disagree often with them.
There are a few at your end of things however.
I have seen your points at times and said so when I do but I am not going to agree with you just to please you, and if because people have different opinions to yours they are to be dismissed, then why even read their posts.

All I said I would do on Wednesday gone,was if leave won, I would come on here Friday,and congratulate the leave side and you particularly, that I did, I said no more than that.

Not everyone who wins is right Kirk and not all who lose are wrong and there is no law anywhere, that says just because a vote goes one way that everyone else on the opposite side has to bow down and agree with the endlessly gloating victors, throwing all their previous hopes and opinions aside.

That has no place in democracy either actually.