[user104658]

I've never understood why people take such issue with the term "black lives matter". It's almost like people get defensive about it, like "what about me??". Personally, I've always considered the slogan to be about saying "black lives matter too". A lot of people seem to take it as "Only black lives matter" but I don't think anyone has ever been saying that?

And yes I also agree that this sort of escalation was inevitable. For those saying "well this won't help anything"... That's not really the point. The point is that it's reaching breaking point and people are snapping. They don't think it will help, but they don't think that ANYTHING will help. When people feel unheard, powerless and under attack it is only a matter of time before they snap.

The absolute worst thing you can do is "pull an LT", throw your head in the sand and demand to see "concrete evidence" of a link before you will even acknowledge the legitimacy of people's grievances. This is what I've been talking about for the last couple of weeks. When there is a clear escalation in tensions in any situation you HAVE to acknowledge it and try to address it quickly before it rolls completely out of control. This is a lesson that Britain should be learning from the US right now, before we learn it ourselves the hard way.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I've never understood why people take such issue with the term "black lives matter". It's almost like people get defensive about it, like "what about me??". Personally, I've always considered the slogan to be about saying "black lives matter too". A lot of people seem to take it as "Only black lives matter" but I don't think anyone has ever been saying that?

And yes I also agree that this sort of escalation was inevitable. For those saying "well this won't help anything"... That's not really the point. The point is that it's reaching breaking point and people are snapping. They don't think it will help, but they don't think that ANYTHING will help. When people feel unheard, powerless and under attack it is only a matter of time before they snap.

The absolute worst thing you can do is "pull an LT", throw your head in the sand and demand to see "concrete evidence" of a link before you will even acknowledge the legitimacy of people's grievances. This is what I've been talking about for the last couple of weeks. When there is a clear escalation in tensions in any situation you HAVE to acknowledge it and try to address it quickly before it rolls completely out of control. This is a lesson that Britain should be learning from the US right now, before we learn it ourselves the hard way.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I've never understood why people take such issue with the term "black lives matter". It's almost like people get defensive about it, like "what about me??". Personally, I've always considered the slogan to be about saying "black lives matter too". A lot of people seem to take it as "Only black lives matter" but I don't think anyone has ever been saying that?

And yes I also agree that this sort of escalation was inevitable. For those saying "well this won't help anything"... That's not really the point. The point is that it's reaching breaking point and people are snapping. They don't think it will help, but they don't think that ANYTHING will help. When people feel unheard, powerless and under attack it is only a matter of time before they snap.

The absolute worst thing you can do is "pull an LT", throw your head in the sand and demand to see "concrete evidence" of a link before you will even acknowledge the legitimacy of people's grievances. This is what I've been talking about for the last couple of weeks. When there is a clear escalation in tensions in any situation you HAVE to acknowledge it and try to address it quickly before it rolls completely out of control. This is a lesson that Britain should be learning from the US right now, before we learn it ourselves the hard way.

Well why don't they just make their slogan 'black lives matter too' to stop any confusion?Having a slogan like that which implies that only black lives matter is bound to cause controversy.
Some of these blm people actually do think that only black lives matter and are racist.Those are the ones who give blm the bad reputation they have and detract from their cause.Most black people are killed by other black people but they don't go protesting over that.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Well why don't they just make their slogan 'black lives matter too' to stop any confusion?Having a slogan like that which implies that only black lives matter is bound to cause controversy.
Some of these blm people actually do think that only black lives matter and are racist.Those are the ones who give blm the bad reputation they have and detract from their cause.Most black people are killed by other black people but they don't go protesting over that.

No it doesn't

and in regards to this "Most black people are killed by other black people but they don't go protesting over that." The big difference here is that the Police are supposed to be there to uphold the law, serve and protect, they're not supposed to be the criminals

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No it doesn't

and in regards to this "Most black people are killed by other black people but they don't go protesting over that." The big difference here is that the Police are supposed to be there to uphold the law, serve and protect, they're not supposed to be the criminals

And the police were out there protecting the protesters so they could have their protest before they started getting killed and nobody is 'supposed' to be criminals but those elements are in all walks of life.Most police are good.It's only a minority who are incompetent.
If they just made their slogan Black lives matter too then nobody would ever take issue with it.Why have one that at best causes confusion and at worst implies that black lives matter more.No wonder people reply with 'all lives matter' because well...they do.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

And the police were out there protecting the protesters so they could have their protest before they started getting killed and nobody is 'supposed' to be criminals but those elements are in all walks of life.Most police are good.It's only a minority who are incompetent.
If they just made their slogan Black lives matter too then nobody would ever take issue with it.Why have one that at best causes confusion and at worst implies that black lives matter more.No wonder people reply with 'all lives matter' because well...they do.

You really think? I think you're wrong about that, i think people would still have a problem with it, i don't think it's the slogans wording that's the issue, i think it's the fact people want to dilute it by preaching "equality for whites too" and hide the fact that there is a problem

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Well why don't they just make their slogan 'black lives matter too' to stop any confusion?Having a slogan like that which implies that only black lives matter is bound to cause controversy.
Some of these blm people actually do think that only black lives matter and are racist.Those are the ones who give blm the bad reputation they have and detract from their cause.Most black people are killed by other black people but they don't go protesting over that.

The thing is, it doesn't imply that, not to anyone who isn't already pre-conditioned to read it as that.

What about "Votes For Women"? That was a HUGE movement. Should men have been up-in-arms saying "No no no no, votes for EVERYONE that should be". Did anyone think that "Votes For Women" was asking for votes to be ONLY for women? No. Everyone knew, by context, that it meant "Votes for women too". That should be just as obvious with "Black Lives Matter". When people use that slogan they are quite obviously NOT saying "...and white / asian / any other lives don't matter".

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The thing is, it doesn't imply that, not to anyone who isn't already pre-conditioned to read it as that.

What about "Votes For Women"? That was a HUGE movement. Should men have been up-in-arms saying "No no no no, votes for EVERYONE that should be". Did anyone think that "Votes For Women" was asking for votes to be ONLY for women? No. Everyone knew, by context, that it meant "Votes for women too". That should be just as obvious with "Black Lives Matter". When people use that slogan they are quite obviously NOT saying "...and white / asian / any other lives don't matter".

So much truth

[Alf]

I suppose it takes the attention of Hillary Clinton.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So much truth

No,Just a deliberately bad comparison.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The thing is, it doesn't imply that, not to anyone who isn't already pre-conditioned to read it as that.

What about "Votes For Women"? That was a HUGE movement. Should men have been up-in-arms saying "No no no no, votes for EVERYONE that should be". Did anyone think that "Votes For Women" was asking for votes to be ONLY for women? No. Everyone knew, by context, that it meant "Votes for women too". That should be just as obvious with "Black Lives Matter". When people use that slogan they are quite obviously NOT saying "...and white / asian / any other lives don't matter".

Now i know that you know that that is an incredibly bad comparison.

To anybody who first comes accross these two slogans when you read or hear them what do you think the first reactions are going to be in their mind?
I would opine that they are something very close to this:

Slogan - Votes for women. First reaction: 'oh can't women vote?'

Slogan - Black lives matter. First reaction: 'well yeah obviously,All lives matter'

You see 'votes for women' is self explanatory.Nothing more needs to be said.The slogan tells you that women don't have the vote already.
'Black lives matter' tells you nothing except possibly somebody thinks that black lives somehow seem to matter more than everyone else or why would it be said?
It's not until you research what Black Lives Matter is and get some context that you understand what they(some of them) are trying to say.
Simply adding 'too' to the end of that slogan would have the same impact as 'Votes for women'.It would immediately tell you that BLM are telling you that they believe they are oppressed.
Now i know you are intelligent and i know that you know the different connotations that these slogans imply so i was reluctant to type out all of this.
Whoever created the BLM slogan either knew that it would cause controversy and confusion and did it deliberately OR they were totally naive.I would bet of the former.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Now i know that you know that that is an incredibly bad comparison.

To anybody who first comes accross these two slogans when you read or hear them what do you think the first reactions are going to be in their mind?
I would opine that they are something very close to this:

Slogan - Votes for women. First reaction: 'oh can't women vote?'

Slogan - Black lives matter. First reaction: 'well yeah obviously,All lives matter'

You see 'votes for women' is self explanatory.Nothing more needs to be said.The slogan tells you that women don't have the vote already.
'Black lives matter' tells you nothing except possibly somebody thinks that black lives somehow seem to matter more than everyone else or why would it be said?
It's not until you research what Black Lives Matter is and get some context that you understand what they(some of them) are trying to say.
Simply adding 'too' to the end of that slogan would have the same impact as 'Votes for women'.It would immediately tell you that BLM are telling you that they believe they are oppressed.
Now i know you are intelligent and i know that you know the different connotations that these slogans imply so i was reluctant to type out all of this.
Whoever created the BLM slogan either knew that it would cause controversy and confusion and did it deliberately OR they were totally naive.I would bet of the former.

No you're so wrong about that. For someone to make a slogan like Black Lives Matter it's because they feel like they're being treated like they don't. ITILYT mentioned some new slogans popping up like GorillasLivesMatter, why was that? It was in reaction to that Gorilla being shot recently because people were feeling like Gorillas were being treated unfairly............. It's the same logic and no one seems to be totally confused by that at all

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No you're so wrong about that. For someone to make a slogan like Black Lives Matter it's because they feel like they're being treated like they don't. ITILYT mentioned some new slogans popping up like GorillasLivesMatter, why was that? It was in reaction to that Gorilla being shot recently because people were feeling like Gorillas were being treated unfairly............. It's the same logic and no one seems to be totally confused by that at all

If i am totally wrong then why are an awful lot of peoples first reaction to hearing Black Lives Matter that All lives matter?
The Gorrilla thing happened on the back of the BLM slogan so context was already established.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

If i am totally wrong then why are an awful lot of peoples first reaction to hearing Black Lives Matter that All lives matter?
The Gorrilla thing happened on the back of the BLM slogan so context was already established.

Because they're trying to downplay the fact that there is actually a problem and Black peoples lives are treated as less important than white peoples

Re the Gorilla thing, well those people who made the slogan must have understood what BLM meant then

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Now i know that you know that that is an incredibly bad comparison.

To anybody who first comes accross these two slogans when you read or hear them what do you think the first reactions are going to be in their mind?
I would opine that they are something very close to this:

Slogan - Votes for women. First reaction: 'oh can't women vote?'

Slogan - Black lives matter. First reaction: 'well yeah obviously,All lives matter'

You see 'votes for women' is self explanatory.Nothing more needs to be said.The slogan tells you that women don't have the vote already.
'Black lives matter' tells you nothing except possibly somebody thinks that black lives somehow seem to matter more than everyone else or why would it be said?
It's not until you research what Black Lives Matter is and get some context that you understand what they(some of them) are trying to say.
Simply adding 'too' to the end of that slogan would have the same impact as 'Votes for women'.It would immediately tell you that BLM are telling you that they believe they are oppressed.
Now i know you are intelligent and i know that you know the different connotations that these slogans imply so i was reluctant to type out all of this.
Whoever created the BLM slogan either knew that it would cause controversy and confusion and did it deliberately OR they were totally naive.I would bet of the former.

I think we simply disagree on this one NM; I think the obvious response to the slogan "Black Lives Matter" would be "Oh... Do some people believe that black lives don't matter or matter less?".

By your logic, it's just as valid to assume that someone politically completely unaware would see a "votes for women!" banner and say, "Hey, why only women??". What you're pointing out is that people were not naive to the context; they knew that it was just women who didn't have the vote. There is nothing IN the message that explains the context, it is assumed as "known".

Exactly the same should apply with Black Lives Matter. Taken in political context, the "too" should easily be implied and the argument that people are getting it wrong "because they are naive to the situation" and don't know that BLM is protesting an inequality is dubious at best. I just don't think it's the case. There is no widespread misunderstanding of the message that needs fixing, those who don't like hearing BLM simply have a problem with the statement full stop, and the supposed "misunderstanding" is a strawman,for the mostpart.

In my opinion adding "... too" is not a simple solution at all. It makes the statement sound like a whine and dilutes it's impact. It takes the power out of it. Definitely not worth it for the (very few) who might be failing to understand the message.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think we simply disagree on this one NM; I think the obvious response to the slogan "Black Lives Matter" would be "Oh... Do some people believe that black lives don't matter or matter less?".

By your logic, it's just as valid to assume that someone politically completely unaware would see a "votes for women!" banner and say, "Hey, why only women??". What you're pointing out is that people were not naive to the context; they knew that it was just women who didn't have the vote. There is nothing IN the message that explains the context, it is assumed as "known".

Exactly the same should apply with Black Lives Matter. Taken in political context, the "too" should easily be implied and the argument that people are getting it wrong "because they are naive to the situation" and don't know that BLM is protesting an inequality is dubious at best. I just don't think it's the case. There is no widespread misunderstanding of the message that needs fixing, those who don't like hearing BLM simply have a problem with the statement full stop, and the supposed "misunderstanding" is a strawman,for the mostpart.

In my opinion adding "... too" is not a simple solution at all. It makes the statement sound like a whine and dilutes it's impact. It takes the power out of it. Definitely not worth it for the (very few) who might be failing to understand the message.

"Exactly the same should apply with Black Lives Matter".

Should apply doesn't mean it does though.You actually have to research what BLM are about to understand it.
I'd say Votes for women is pretty self explanatory.
Or maybe not everybody has your intelligence to read between the lines.
Can you honestly say that the first time you heard the phrase Black Lives Matter without any context that you knew what it was about?
I did'nt.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

"Exactly the same should apply with Black Lives Matter".

Should apply doesn't mean it does though.You actually have to research what BLM are about to understand it.
I'd say Votes for women is pretty self explanatory.
Or maybe not everybody has your intelligence to read between the lines.
Can you honestly say that the first time you heard the phrase Black Lives Matter without any context that you knew what it was about?
I did'nt.

If anyone has to research the context of black lives matter to know what it's about then they are either children, or too politically unaware to be confidently engaging in the debate in the first place (in other words meaning they SHOULD look it up, rather than being reactionary and defensive).

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Well why don't they just make their slogan 'black lives matter too' to stop any confusion?Having a slogan like that which implies that only black lives matter is bound to cause controversy.
Some of these blm people actually do think that only black lives matter and are racist.Those are the ones who give blm the bad reputation they have and detract from their cause.Most black people are killed by other black people but they don't go protesting over that.

..BLM is a raising of awareness though, NM...and like any raising of awareness of anything, it's not saying that any comparisons aren't of equal importance, just that it's focusing on something in particular ...I mean, we don't say 'this is a Race for Life for breast cancer because we feel that breast cancer is of more importance than any other cancer', type thing..it's just that the focus of raising awareness in anything is..well, focused on one thing, I mean always, surely .....so the use of 'too' is not really necessary and shouldn't be...that in itself would seem to me to justify more than anything else, the BLM campaigners....so it's understandable the frustrations and (yes anger..)..felt with 'all lives matter' because it completely dismisses any thought at all...


....slightly off topic but just because the #gorillalivesmatter thing has been mentioned and I hadn't heard of that until this thread....I found that quite interesting as well, the way the media attention in the immediate after days were very focused on the boy's family in terms of delving into their background and his dad being an ex drug addict and having a criminal record etc.../I didn't see any relevance at all to what happened and the death of Harambe....that we had so much negative information/background given about the family...

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I've never understood why people take such issue with the term "black lives matter". It's almost like people get defensive about it, like "what about me??". Personally, I've always considered the slogan to be about saying "black lives matter too". A lot of people seem to take it as "Only black lives matter" but I don't think anyone has ever been saying that?

And yes I also agree that this sort of escalation was inevitable. For those saying "well this won't help anything"... That's not really the point. The point is that it's reaching breaking point and people are snapping. They don't think it will help, but they don't think that ANYTHING will help. When people feel unheard, powerless and under attack it is only a matter of time before they snap.

The absolute worst thing you can do is "pull an LT", throw your head in the sand and demand to see "concrete evidence" of a link before you will even acknowledge the legitimacy of people's grievances. This is what I've been talking about for the last couple of weeks. When there is a clear escalation in tensions in any situation you HAVE to acknowledge it and try to address it quickly before it rolls completely out of control. This is a lesson that Britain should be learning from the US right now, before we learn it ourselves the hard way.

Some white people take issue with BLM because they're used to being the majority and being catered for, when they see something like BLM, BET/MOBO awards and Black History month, they have a reaction similar to that of a spoiled child who's seen another kid with a toy they haven't got and they want it. What these people don't understand is that the other 11 months are White History months, that every channel and award ceremony mostly caters to white people. Pretty much everything in the rest caters to white people.