[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The thing is, it doesn't imply that, not to anyone who isn't already pre-conditioned to read it as that.

What about "Votes For Women"? That was a HUGE movement. Should men have been up-in-arms saying "No no no no, votes for EVERYONE that should be". Did anyone think that "Votes For Women" was asking for votes to be ONLY for women? No. Everyone knew, by context, that it meant "Votes for women too". That should be just as obvious with "Black Lives Matter". When people use that slogan they are quite obviously NOT saying "...and white / asian / any other lives don't matter".

Now i know that you know that that is an incredibly bad comparison.

To anybody who first comes accross these two slogans when you read or hear them what do you think the first reactions are going to be in their mind?
I would opine that they are something very close to this:

Slogan - Votes for women. First reaction: 'oh can't women vote?'

Slogan - Black lives matter. First reaction: 'well yeah obviously,All lives matter'

You see 'votes for women' is self explanatory.Nothing more needs to be said.The slogan tells you that women don't have the vote already.
'Black lives matter' tells you nothing except possibly somebody thinks that black lives somehow seem to matter more than everyone else or why would it be said?
It's not until you research what Black Lives Matter is and get some context that you understand what they(some of them) are trying to say.
Simply adding 'too' to the end of that slogan would have the same impact as 'Votes for women'.It would immediately tell you that BLM are telling you that they believe they are oppressed.
Now i know you are intelligent and i know that you know the different connotations that these slogans imply so i was reluctant to type out all of this.
Whoever created the BLM slogan either knew that it would cause controversy and confusion and did it deliberately OR they were totally naive.I would bet of the former.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Now i know that you know that that is an incredibly bad comparison.

To anybody who first comes accross these two slogans when you read or hear them what do you think the first reactions are going to be in their mind?
I would opine that they are something very close to this:

Slogan - Votes for women. First reaction: 'oh can't women vote?'

Slogan - Black lives matter. First reaction: 'well yeah obviously,All lives matter'

You see 'votes for women' is self explanatory.Nothing more needs to be said.The slogan tells you that women don't have the vote already.
'Black lives matter' tells you nothing except possibly somebody thinks that black lives somehow seem to matter more than everyone else or why would it be said?
It's not until you research what Black Lives Matter is and get some context that you understand what they(some of them) are trying to say.
Simply adding 'too' to the end of that slogan would have the same impact as 'Votes for women'.It would immediately tell you that BLM are telling you that they believe they are oppressed.
Now i know you are intelligent and i know that you know the different connotations that these slogans imply so i was reluctant to type out all of this.
Whoever created the BLM slogan either knew that it would cause controversy and confusion and did it deliberately OR they were totally naive.I would bet of the former.

No you're so wrong about that. For someone to make a slogan like Black Lives Matter it's because they feel like they're being treated like they don't. ITILYT mentioned some new slogans popping up like GorillasLivesMatter, why was that? It was in reaction to that Gorilla being shot recently because people were feeling like Gorillas were being treated unfairly............. It's the same logic and no one seems to be totally confused by that at all

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No you're so wrong about that. For someone to make a slogan like Black Lives Matter it's because they feel like they're being treated like they don't. ITILYT mentioned some new slogans popping up like GorillasLivesMatter, why was that? It was in reaction to that Gorilla being shot recently because people were feeling like Gorillas were being treated unfairly............. It's the same logic and no one seems to be totally confused by that at all

If i am totally wrong then why are an awful lot of peoples first reaction to hearing Black Lives Matter that All lives matter?
The Gorrilla thing happened on the back of the BLM slogan so context was already established.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

If i am totally wrong then why are an awful lot of peoples first reaction to hearing Black Lives Matter that All lives matter?
The Gorrilla thing happened on the back of the BLM slogan so context was already established.

Because they're trying to downplay the fact that there is actually a problem and Black peoples lives are treated as less important than white peoples

Re the Gorilla thing, well those people who made the slogan must have understood what BLM meant then

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Because they're trying to downplay the fact that there is actually a problem and Black peoples lives are treated as less important than white peoples

Re the Gorilla thing, well those people who made the slogan must have understood what BLM meant then

Some people are trying to downplay that there is a problem with the US police.Some.Not everybody or even a majority.
I don't really see where you're going with the gorilla thing.
That slogan was made well after the black lives matter one was already well established and is obvs just a copy of it to do with gorillas.
Why not just add 'too' to the end of BLM so it's perfectly clear what they are trying to say?

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Some people are trying to downplay that there is a problem with the US police.Some.Not everybody or even a majority.
I don't really see where you're going with the gorilla thing.
That slogan was made well after the black lives matter one was already well established and is obvs just a copy of it to do with gorillas.
Why not just add 'too' to the end of BLM so it's perfectly clear what they are trying to say?

Why? to appease the white folk?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Why? to appease the white folk?

Well when people respond by saying that all lives matter then they are ones who will bitch about it.It's a self created problem by this group.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Now i know that you know that that is an incredibly bad comparison.

To anybody who first comes accross these two slogans when you read or hear them what do you think the first reactions are going to be in their mind?
I would opine that they are something very close to this:

Slogan - Votes for women. First reaction: 'oh can't women vote?'

Slogan - Black lives matter. First reaction: 'well yeah obviously,All lives matter'

You see 'votes for women' is self explanatory.Nothing more needs to be said.The slogan tells you that women don't have the vote already.
'Black lives matter' tells you nothing except possibly somebody thinks that black lives somehow seem to matter more than everyone else or why would it be said?
It's not until you research what Black Lives Matter is and get some context that you understand what they(some of them) are trying to say.
Simply adding 'too' to the end of that slogan would have the same impact as 'Votes for women'.It would immediately tell you that BLM are telling you that they believe they are oppressed.
Now i know you are intelligent and i know that you know the different connotations that these slogans imply so i was reluctant to type out all of this.
Whoever created the BLM slogan either knew that it would cause controversy and confusion and did it deliberately OR they were totally naive.I would bet of the former.

I think we simply disagree on this one NM; I think the obvious response to the slogan "Black Lives Matter" would be "Oh... Do some people believe that black lives don't matter or matter less?".

By your logic, it's just as valid to assume that someone politically completely unaware would see a "votes for women!" banner and say, "Hey, why only women??". What you're pointing out is that people were not naive to the context; they knew that it was just women who didn't have the vote. There is nothing IN the message that explains the context, it is assumed as "known".

Exactly the same should apply with Black Lives Matter. Taken in political context, the "too" should easily be implied and the argument that people are getting it wrong "because they are naive to the situation" and don't know that BLM is protesting an inequality is dubious at best. I just don't think it's the case. There is no widespread misunderstanding of the message that needs fixing, those who don't like hearing BLM simply have a problem with the statement full stop, and the supposed "misunderstanding" is a strawman,for the mostpart.

In my opinion adding "... too" is not a simple solution at all. It makes the statement sound like a whine and dilutes it's impact. It takes the power out of it. Definitely not worth it for the (very few) who might be failing to understand the message.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think we simply disagree on this one NM; I think the obvious response to the slogan "Black Lives Matter" would be "Oh... Do some people believe that black lives don't matter or matter less?".

By your logic, it's just as valid to assume that someone politically completely unaware would see a "votes for women!" banner and say, "Hey, why only women??". What you're pointing out is that people were not naive to the context; they knew that it was just women who didn't have the vote. There is nothing IN the message that explains the context, it is assumed as "known".

Exactly the same should apply with Black Lives Matter. Taken in political context, the "too" should easily be implied and the argument that people are getting it wrong "because they are naive to the situation" and don't know that BLM is protesting an inequality is dubious at best. I just don't think it's the case. There is no widespread misunderstanding of the message that needs fixing, those who don't like hearing BLM simply have a problem with the statement full stop, and the supposed "misunderstanding" is a strawman,for the mostpart.

In my opinion adding "... too" is not a simple solution at all. It makes the statement sound like a whine and dilutes it's impact. It takes the power out of it. Definitely not worth it for the (very few) who might be failing to understand the message.

"Exactly the same should apply with Black Lives Matter".

Should apply doesn't mean it does though.You actually have to research what BLM are about to understand it.
I'd say Votes for women is pretty self explanatory.
Or maybe not everybody has your intelligence to read between the lines.
Can you honestly say that the first time you heard the phrase Black Lives Matter without any context that you knew what it was about?
I did'nt.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

"Exactly the same should apply with Black Lives Matter".

Should apply doesn't mean it does though.You actually have to research what BLM are about to understand it.
I'd say Votes for women is pretty self explanatory.
Or maybe not everybody has your intelligence to read between the lines.
Can you honestly say that the first time you heard the phrase Black Lives Matter without any context that you knew what it was about?
I did'nt.

If anyone has to research the context of black lives matter to know what it's about then they are either children, or too politically unaware to be confidently engaging in the debate in the first place (in other words meaning they SHOULD look it up, rather than being reactionary and defensive).

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If anyone has to research the context of black lives matter to know what it's about then they are either children, or too politically unaware to be confidently engaging in the debate in the first place (in other words meaning they SHOULD look it up, rather than being reactionary and defensive).

Well now yeah most people know what it is.They did'nt at first though when the all lives matter thing happened as a response.They just saw people shouting 'Black lives matter' at them on Twitter and they were like well yeah so does my white/latino/asian/insert ethnicity life.Not everybody who goes on Twitter and Facebook are politically minded or aware.