[jaxie]

It is sort of disturbing to see how desperately people defend mysogianistic religious conditioning practices. Maybe one day the world will wise up.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

The wearing of burkhas etc is tantamount to wearing a tee shirt stating women are second-class citizens and unequal to their male counterparts - is that not hatred. Just because the law hasn't quite recognised that yet doesn't mean it isn't and doesn't mean it won't.

But that's your interpretation of the Burkha. When you look at times in other countries where things like the Burkha have been banned or there's been talk of a ban, it's often Muslim women who are vocal in their opposition to the said ban. I don't really agree with banning a clothing item because of one interpretation of it.

As I said before, my only real view on the issue is that, like with all face obscuring clothes, they should be limited in areas where people need to be easily identified. I don't really see the merit of regulating clothing choice otherwise.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

But that's your interpretation of the Burkha. When you look at times in other countries where things like the Burkha have been banned or there's been talk of a ban, it's often Muslim women who are vocal in their opposition to the said ban. I don't really agree with banning a clothing item because of one interpretation of it.

As I said before, my only real view on the issue is that, like with all face obscuring clothes, they should be limited in areas where people need to be easily identified. I don't really see the merit of regulating clothing choice otherwise.

Don't forget how hard it must be to actually make friends with anyone with your face covered. This is why some muslim women are consistantly isolated at the school gates.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Don't forget how hard it must be to actually make friends with anyone with your face covered. This is why some muslim women are consistantly isolated at the school gates.

If that's their choice though then there's nothing to be said.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

But that's your interpretation of the Burkha. When you look at times in other countries where things like the Burkha have been banned or there's been talk of a ban, it's often Muslim women who are vocal in their opposition to the said ban.

But I wonder how many of those women are just doing as they are told - forced to spout the men's words because the men know they can't. Maybe such a belief is not actually helping them. There are a lot of ifs and buts - enough to cast a lot of doubt on the validity of such 'opposition'.

But at the end of the day, as far as I and many other women are concerned, it is challenging female equality in a country that has equality laws to supposedly protect women from such backward beliefs towards women and their equality and is therefore offensive to women. In comparison the 'right' to wear what you want is not equal - it's trivial.

Technically we are not allowed to wear what we want anyway - that is a misconception to direct attention away from the real issue. There are rules about decency, racial/homosexual hatred etc and various other dress codes, so why is an exception made for this particular religion when it is offensive to about 50% of the population. It makes one doubt how 'equal' women really are in this country.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If that's their choice though then there's nothing to be said.

Except it is rarely their choice, it is conditioning.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Perhaps so but he made an accusation that he knows more about Muslims than I do and that was a presumption on his part. He probably knows more Sunni's and less Shia's than I do but perhaps I'm making presumptions like he did

My presumption was wrong and i admit my mistake and i am taking that part back.

In other points i am still laying out the same arguments i did in my post. When people group up in that kind of place they are not exposed to other options until they are very old and as you get older you are more likely to hold onto what you were taught. If a person has a chance to see other lifestyles and decide to be muslim and follow the religion that is up to them.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Also banning burkas are not going to be a solution.. or china banning muslim names. You cant get your point across against oppression when you are oppressing them yourself.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by VanessaFeltz.

You cant get your point across against oppression when you are oppressing them yourself.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by VanessaFeltz.

Also banning burkas are not going to be a solution.. or china banning muslim names. You cant get your point across against oppression when you are oppressing them yourself.

I don't see that expecting people who chose to live a certain country to respect the values and culture of that country as oppression.

Integration is key to success and wearing clothing that shouts female subjugation and undermines equality is not integration.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I don't see that expecting people who chose to live a certain country to respect the values and culture of that country as oppression.

Integration is key to success and wearing clothing that shouts female subjugation and undermines equality is not integration.

But there is nothing about british values/culture that suggests a burqua should be banned.
You designed a new British ideology based around your personal insecurities, not the law of the land and its values.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I don't see that expecting people who chose to live a certain country to respect the values and culture of that country as oppression.

Integration is key to success and wearing clothing that shouts female subjugation and undermines equality is not integration.

Fully agree Brillo.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Fully agree Brillo.

Sometimes you feel you are hitting your head against a brick wall - no doubt it would be different if male equality was being challenged in this way.

Many pay lip service to believing in female equality, but talk is cheap and actions really do speak louder than words in my book.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I don't see that expecting people who chose to live a certain country to respect the values and culture of that country as oppression.

Integration is key to success and wearing clothing that shouts female subjugation and undermines equality is not integration.

%100 disagree.

A country's laws should respect and protect EVERYONE not just the majority. Yes people entering a new country should respect other people and their rights but you cant make other people wear whatever you want them to wear. Not every women wants to wear burka in countries like saudi arabia but they are forced to wear those clothes. They dont have a chance to live in another country and they suffer because of other peoples actions. That is why i am upset with majority of the muslim people because they get upset at people who dont grant the rights they deserve while they dont respect or grant the rights other people deserve. If we do the same thing, then how we can ask respect from other people?

In short saying "respect the laws" is a weak argument to make when laws dont respect the people who work and contribute to the said society.

[Northern Monkey]

Does anybody even want to ban headscarves?
I don't see why they're a problem.
I thought it was just the full letterbox style assassin mask that people want banned?Which i totally agree with.
People's faces shouldn't be unrecognisable in public.For one it diminishes the whole idea of CCTV.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by VanessaFeltz.

Also banning burkas are not going to be a solution.. or china banning muslim names. You cant get your point across against oppression when you are oppressing them yourself.

As long as the burka ban is not a blanket ban it should work.

[Brother Leon]

TiBB coming like Stormfront these days with the propaganda. What a mess.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Brother Leon

TiBB coming like Stormfront these days with the propaganda. What a mess.

Typical left wing rubbish. Pot and kettle.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Except it is rarely their choice, it is conditioning.

Originally Posted by Brillopad

But I wonder how many of those women are just doing as they are told - forced to spout the men's words because the men know they can't. Maybe such a belief is not actually helping them. There are a lot of ifs and buts - enough to cast a lot of doubt on the validity of such 'opposition'.

But at the end of the day, as far as I and many other women are concerned, it is challenging female equality in a country that has equality laws to supposedly protect women from such backward beliefs towards women and their equality and is therefore offensive to women. In comparison the 'right' to wear what you want is not equal - it's trivial.

Technically we are not allowed to wear what we want anyway - that is a misconception to direct attention away from the real issue. There are rules about decency, racial/homosexual hatred etc and various other dress codes, so why is an exception made for this particular religion when it is offensive to about 50% of the population. It makes one doubt how 'equal' women really are in this country.

Both of these posts are incredibly patronising towards Muslim women.

Brillo, Your point of view is ultimately hypocritical, you've taken your view of what the Burkha stands for and you are passing it off as fact as a way of telling women what they can and cannot wear. Feminism is about equality but also the freedom of choice, if a woman wants to wear a Burkha then that is her choice to do so, of course there are controlling husbands/boyfriends etc out there. It's quite common in abusive relationships for the abuser to tell the abused how to dress and that's something that happens in relationships regardless of creed or race. You can't use that as an excuse to dictate to other women what is acceptable or not depending on your own standards.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by VanessaFeltz.

My presumption was wrong and i admit my mistake and i am taking that part back.

In other points i am still laying out the same arguments i did in my post. When people group up in that kind of place they are not exposed to other options until they are very old and as you get older you are more likely to hold onto what you were taught. If a person has a chance to see other lifestyles and decide to be muslim and follow the religion that is up to them.

Thank you VF and yes, I agree with your second paragraph.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I agree. The wearing of the face coverings is an entirely different subject. They are oppressive, pose a security risk, are a health hazard and look awful.

I would also imagine Western babies and young children would be pretty frightened if someone wearing one got too close. Scary looking things.

Only if they've been socialised to express a prejudice.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Both of these posts are incredibly patronising towards Muslim women.

Brillo, Your point of view is ultimately hypocritical, you've taken your view of what the Burkha stands for and you are passing it off as fact as a way of telling women what they can and cannot wear. Feminism is about equality but also the freedom of choice, if a woman wants to wear a Burkha then that is her choice to do so, of course there are controlling husbands/boyfriends etc out there. It's quite common in abusive relationships for the abuser to tell the abused how to dress and that's something that happens in relationships regardless of creed or race. You can't use that as an excuse to dictate to other women what is acceptable or not depending on your own standards.

I don't believe I am being hypocritical. It is commmon knowledge what the burkha represents - it isn't simply my opinion.

Yes it is quite common for men to abuse and control women across the board, but being afraid to challenge this unacceptable behaviour in some cultures/religous groups is also unacceptable. Religious belief is no excuse.

The wearing of such clothing is demonstrating hatred of women and a disrespect for women's rights whether coming from men or a small minority of women who have been 'encouraged', by whatever means, to believe this. Why should the obvious hatred of women be more tolerable than hatred of race or sexual orientation?

There is no difference and to act as if there is - is what is hypocritical in my book and I would hope in most peoples' books.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Only if they've been socialised to express a prejudice.

Are you serious- babies don't understand prejudice, but the sight of that black, bold tent with eyes staring out of it would understandably frighten them.

Given what the wearing of them represents I would also hope that it isn't a sight most people would want our children to get used to.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by VanessaFeltz.

Also banning burkas are not going to be a solution.. or china banning muslim names. You cant get your point across against oppression when you are oppressing them yourself.

Exactly!

And banning a garment does not protect women from the cultural backlash. it has to start with a freedom of choice and equity for women. Right now I feel laws banning the garment will only add to the shaming and negative connotation that is put on these religious or cultural garments.

Some women choose to wear this garment proudly, some hate that they have to wear it. Its a socially constructed issue that no law can fix. Even if laws were made that gave each person a choice to wear or not wear the applicable attire, that wouldn't change the general consensus of acceptable behaviour in dress.

That is something only time and greater acceptance can accomplish.

[DemolitionRed]

The banning in France has caused more trouble than its worth. Some women are no longer allowed to leave their front door by their patriarchal husbands/fathers and for those that protested by ignoring the ban, there have been a number of hate crimes, including a pregnant woman who was so badly beaten, she lost her baby.