[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Livia

If we're fighting for justice for women, I say we step away from the issue of headscarves and concentrate on FGM

Spoiler:

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/giving/jo...FdTNGwodEfkDqg

or the extreme cruelty of Boko Haram

Spoiler:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...use-hrw-report

or the fact that IS and other groups are taking women prisoners and then selling them as sex slaves

Spoiler:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7670276.html

Or perhaps we should focus on the way gays are treated in Islam

Spoiler:

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/p...-homosexuality

I'd say they're all a little more serious than whether or not a woman covers her head and they're the tip of the iceburg when it comes to cruelty and oppression.

I completely agree. I think it pretty obvious, and downright telling, that of all the oppression in the world the largest proportion of victims are women - which athough occurs in varying degrees - amounts to the same and needs to be addressed on a worldwide basis.

Obviously the examples you give there should get priority but I think in attempting to address the mindset of such religions in the West such as banning face veils in public gives out the message to women, and hopefully men, that women have intelligence, free thought and rights. They are not cattle.

I feel that by allowing the wearing of any kind of female garment that can be used to oppress women in the West gives out the wrong message as well as allows men to continue to control and oppress women in the West. For those that are forced to wear them here they must be silently screaming for the West to do something. Even if those forced to are in the minority, and I have my doubts about that, I think that the minorities' right not to be abused in this way in the West should take precedence over the rights of those that choose to wear them. Why don't those women care about their own I have to ask myself.

Certainly a lot more should be done to address the issues in those articles but I guess it is difficult to address them in other parts of the world. Here we can, starting with such things as face veils in my opinion.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I completely agree. I think it pretty obvious, and downright telling, that of all the oppression in the world the largest proportion of victims are women - which athough occurs in varying degrees - amounts to the same and needs to be addressed on a worldwide basis.

Obviously the examples you give there should get priority but I think in attempting to address the mindset of such religions in the West such as banning face veils in public gives out the message to women, and hopefully men, that women have intelligence, free thought and rights. They are not cattle.

I feel that by allowing the wearing or any kind of female garment that can be used to oppress women in the West gives out the wrong message as well as allows men to continue to control and oppress women in the West. For those that are forced to wear them here they must be silently screaming for the West to do something.

Certainly a lot more should be done to address the issues in those articles but I guess it is difficult to address them in other parts of the world. Here we can, starting with such things as face veils in my opinion.

I kind of agree with your post but I think telling women what they can and can't wear (unless for security reasons) is the wrong way to go about it. It's pretty much doing what their religion/husbands etc etc is doing to them. I think just living in the West and having the law backing women and their rights should help them in making a decision themselves on whether they want to stay living this way or not, it may take a generation or more but atleast it will be a choice they came to themselves and that's the best way to do it I think.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I kind of agree with your post but I think telling women what they can and can't wear (unless for security reasons) is the wrong way to go about it. It's pretty much doing what their religion/husbands etc etc is doing to them. I think just living in the West and having the law backing women and their rights should help them in making a decision themselves on whether they want to stay living this way or not, it may take a generation or more but atleast it will be a choice they came to themselves and that's the best way to do it I think.

I do get where you're coming and don't disagree with that in principle but can't help feeling that we are complicit in the oppression by allowing it to carry on 'under our roofs'.

I come back to things like adopting and respecting the values of the country you choose to live in and the wearing of niqabs and Burkhas definitely does not Do this.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I do get where you're coming and don't disagree with that in principle but can't help feeling that we are complicit in the oppression by allowing it to carry on 'under our roofs'.

I come back to things like adopting and respecting the values of the country you choose to live in and the wearing of niqabs and Burkhas definitely does not Do this.

I think the only way you can help people who are oppressed is by giving them another option that's fully backed by the law and give them support should they choose to break away from family/religion etc It's not healthy to decide for a woman that her clothes are wrong and a symbol of oppression and then oppress her in the same way by telling her what she can and cannot wear.

Ugh I can't word what i want to say very well, what I mean is, she will never be really free from oppression unless she can make these kind of choices herself

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I think the only way you can help people who are oppressed is by giving them another option that's fully backed by the law and give them support should they choose to break away from family/religion etc It's not healthy to decide for a woman that her clothes are wrong and a symbol of oppression and then oppress her in the same way by telling her what she can and cannot wear.

Ugh I can't word what i want to say very well, what I mean is, she will never be really free from oppression unless she can make these kind of choices herself

So men need to butt out and just let women dress how they want,a lot of women are conditioned from birth in certain countries that the male is the more supreme of the species and they have to be subservient.plus I do think when you decide to live in a different country and culture you should have the decency to at least live by their rules and respect their traditions.we are tole that when we visit some countries not to wear certain clothes and cover up which most of us comply with.we are just saying that in the UK most of us don't think the burka(full head covering) is not needed or wanted.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

So men need to butt out and just let women dress how they want,a lot of women are conditioned from birth in certain countries that the male is the more supreme of the species and they have to be subservient.plus I do think when you decide to live in a different country and culture you should have the decency to at least live by their rules and respect their traditions.we are tole that when we visit some countries not to wear certain clothes and cover up which most of us comply with.we are just saying that in the UK most of us don't think the burka(full head covering) is not needed or wanted.

I understand what you're saying but banning certain items of clothing (except for security reasons) is making "us" as "bad as them" Yes i believe oppressive clothing like the Burka are there to keep women under control but the way to change that is not to force women to take them off when they're probably not psychologically ready to do that instead to give them the choice to do so if they want to that they may not have in stricter Muslim countries.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I understand what you're saying but banning certain items of clothing (except for security reasons) is making "us" as "bad as them" Yes i believe oppressive clothing like the Burka are there to keep women under control but the way to change that is not to force women to take them off when they're probably not psychologically ready to do that instead to give them the choice to do so if they want to that they may not have in stricter Muslim countries.

But legally they already have the choice not to wear it

The only way to stop them being forced to wear it is to ban it.