[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I agree with no 'entirely male brain' but when a boy has a typical female brain, and when that can be seen on scanners, and when a parent would deny the child a drug that would stop that female turning into an adult male, its a bit.... wrong? Cruel? Dumb? Outdated? Especially if the child, or teen can verbally express that they know their gender, and this can be backed up.

I'll give your transabled link a read a little later on.. the main theory about that transracial woman is her link to her traumatic childhood.. details are hazy.. but I think her Uncle or father used to make her eat her own vomit, and researchers concluded that she may have wanted to identify as a race that were also poorly treated for that reason. I suppose it could be similar for transabled people? I dont think theres enough history on either topic for anyone to make conclusions.. unlike transgender, thats getting pretty solid now..

Well interestingly enough, there are strong links between transsexual people and autism too. And a LOT of trans people (especially FtM) have been sexually assaulted or raped aswell.

Its all quite fascinating, and I didn't really know anything about any of it until a year or so ago. I just think sticking kids on puberty blockers is really wrong, especially when most kids will grow out of it. When if they are put on blockers, they do NOT grow out of it. And that most who DO grow out of it are just gay as adults. So I do see it as modern day euginics and am quite puzzled how there seems to be such widespread support for it :S Yes it will be stressful for a kids to go through 'the wrong' puberty if it does turn out they were trans all along. It is equally stressful for a kid to reach adulthood and realise that they were just gay all along and now be stuck with a body that mimics the opposite sex and lifelong medical issues

There was a doctor done not long ago for prescribing hormones and such over the internet ffs. There is also an organisation called mermaids, who the NHS send parents of gender questioning kids to. This organisation pressures parents into transitioning their kids by telling them that nearly all trans kids try to kill themselves and so on, and encourage parents to buy offlabel drugs for when the Tavistock is 'taking too long' to treat. Its all a huge ****storm that will come to a head soon.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think it's a good idea for when cases have been verified beyond a shadow of a doubt which they probably are for the most part since, like with all gender reassignment treatments, medical professionals will want to ensure that it's something the patient truly wants and is prepared for before they go ahead with it.

Would you have know what was best for you at 11? I know I wouldn't have. Infact if I was a kid today I would probably be set off on the route to blockers as I was 'stereotypically' a boy, HATED every second of puberty, did not want to be as woman...also was sure I would never want kids (something kids are unlikely to consider as no kid really wants kids) and I swear if someone had said to me 'look,. you can avoid all of this' I would have taken it with both hands without thinking of the consequences.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Would you have know what was best for you at 11? I know I wouldn't have. Infact if I was a kid today I would probably be set off on the route to blockers as I was 'stereotypically' a boy, HATED every second of puberty, did not want to be as woman...also was sure I would never want kids (something kids are unlikely to consider as no kid really wants kids) and I swear if someone had said to me 'look,. you can avoid all of this' I would have taken it with both hands without thinking of the consequences.

Agreed. I do not believe for a second that a ten year old fully knows or understands something like that. Doctors could end up on charges of abuse and with Hugh litigation claims if and when the consequences for the child in the future are not as expected.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

equally stressful for a kid to reach adulthood and realise that they were just gay all along and now be stuck with a body that mimics the opposite sex and lifelong medical issues

I think this is the reason for our difference in opinion maybe?
I presume a blocker would stop puberty from going either way, and puberty would commence once more when the blocker isn't being taken. A gay man who took the pill for a day, a week, or a year would can stop taking the pill and resume his male puberty cycle, whereas a female in a mans body who is confident after the 5(?) years they have to be sure of their gender * can start the mtf process without an adams apple or a deep voice.

* I think thats the rule, your, I, or any teen who has an epiphany today can't change our sex any time soon, theres a lengthy procedure.. 5 years sounds familiar.

I would also be against a drug that starts the transistion period from an early age.. i dont think that is what this is.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I think this is the reason for our difference in opinion maybe?
I presume a blocker would stop puberty from going either way, and puberty would commence once more when the blocker isn't being taken. A gay man who took the pill for a day, a week, or a year would can stop taking the pill and resume his male puberty cycle, whereas a female in a mans body who is confident after the 5(?) years they have to be sure of their gender * can start the mtf process without an adams apple or a deep voice.

* I think thats the rule, your, I, or any teen who has an epiphany today can't change our sex any time soon, theres a lengthy procedure.. 5 years sounds familiar.

Yes, in theory. However all (or nearly all) children who are on blockers go onto cross sex hormones. Now, I don't know why this is but can take a guess, huge brain changes occur in puberty. Blocking these changes will effectively keep you in the mindset that you were when puberty was supposed to occur. So you are not going to have a 'change of heart' as your brain will not have the maturity that it needs to make such a decision.

Where when just left alone to develop at their own rate, 80% (or more, depending on the study) of these children who were 'gender questioning' just grow out of it during/after puberty.

So yeah, in theory it sounds a decent idea, in practice most certainly not.

The only study done into this proves that blockers whilst technically reversible, are not in practice. Any further thought of studies have been shouted down by transactivists. As has research into 'detransitioners'. You have to wonder why this is...surely more understanding is best for everyone, right?

[Marsh.]

Absolutely sick and disgusting.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes, in theory. However all (or nearly all) children who are on blockers go onto cross sex hormones. Now, I don't know why this is but can take a guess, huge brain changes occur in puberty. Blocking these changes will effectively keep you in the mindset that you were when puberty was supposed to occur. So you are not going to have a 'change of heart' as your brain will not have the maturity that it needs to make such a decision.

Where when just left alone to develop at their own rate, 80% (or more, depending on the study) of these children who were 'gender questioning' just grow out of it during/after puberty.

So yeah, in theory it sounds a decent idea, in practice most certainly not.

I suppose that could begin to explain why some researchers believe there are like 70+ genders. I guess gender-questioning could mean knowing that you're not male, assuming you must be female, but then realising you're one of the other 70 odd genders that I don't fully understand. Like bi-gender or agender etc.
But I think we're on the right track with this drug. The cross hormones might not be causal, they could have easily already been there. The drug could also be perfected in the future.. The more cases will just expand our knowledge on the area, and perhaps in 50 years times this sorta thing could be evaluated in a more effective way.
Terminating the use of a drug that can clearly be incredible useful isn't the answer.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I suppose that could begin to explain why some researchers believe there are like 70+ genders. I guess gender-questioning could mean knowing that you're not male, assuming you must be female, but then realising you're one of the other 70 odd genders that I don't fully understand. Like bi-gender or agender etc.
But I think we're on the right track with this drug. The cross hormones might not be causal, they could have easily already been there. The drug could also be perfected in the future.. The more cases will just expand our knowledge on the area, and perhaps in 50 years times this sorta thing could be evaluated in a more effective way.
Terminating the use of a drug that can clearly be incredible useful isn't the answer.

But in the meantime, 80% of children put onto the drug, don't need to be on it? So effectively we are treating (and medicalising for life) 4 out of every 5 people put on it, when they don't need to be treat that way! Thats mental, surely...
https://www.nwhn.org/lupron-what-doe...womens-health/

Lupron causes significant safety concerns aswell...if it really worth it, so that 1/5 of the people who take it can look a little more feminine/masculine as an adult?!

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/...alth-problems/

[Vicky.]

As for genders, gender is a social construct. I have no gender, so technically am 'a-gender' or 'gender-queer'. I only discovered this when looking into this fairly recently. I believe 'gender' is just personality, hence there being 2361278456238954234 of them. Sex and gender are not the same.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

But in the meantime, 80% of children put onto the drug, don't need to be on it? So effectively we are treating (and medicalising for life) 4 out of every 5 people put on it, when they don't need to be treat that way! Thats mental, surely...
https://www.nwhn.org/lupron-what-doe...womens-health/

Lupron causes significant safety concerns aswell...if it really worth it, so that 1/5 of the people who take it can look a little more feminine/masculine as an adult?!

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/...alth-problems/

I guess at this point it would just be a game of swap the link..for every article there is on the dangers of the drug, there's an article that claims that all effects are completely reversible.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I guess at this point it would just be a game of swap the link..for every article there is on the dangers of the drug, there's an article that claims that all effects are completely reversible.

It is a powerful chemotherapy drug. Of course it is not harmless..

The only study done into it shows that they are not reversible in practice...I have read links that say they are reversible, oddly enough there has not been a study done on any of them, its just opinion. And yes, in theory they would be reversible...but noone who takes them changes their minds..

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

As if it's assumed that parents walk into a surgery and walk out with this medication, don't you thing there are behavioral and cognitive therapies explored first?

https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...s-survey-finds

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-identity.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn...b_8564834.html

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/ab...J-05-2014-0015

and you are assuming that there is endless funding for behavioural and congnitive therapies, try asking the parent of a child with behavioural difficulties or congnitive delay in this day and age how difficult it is to get assessed never mind a diagnosis or help in mainstream school

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I hope you're wrong and instead people are given proper counselling to help them accept who they are, not given the emperor's new clothes treatment

post of the thread, look at all the kids who were given the wonder drug Ritalin to control their behaviour instead exploring other ways of dealing with ADHD and other behavioural issues

[Oliver_W]

As others have said, young kids who think they're trans most often grow of it by the time they hit puberty. While the blockers themselves don't cause sterilisation, they lead to transition hormones, which mean the child will never have been fertile in the first place.

Take Jazz Jennings. She's an MtF who transitioned young. Thanks to blockers and hormones, her penis never developed, and it can't be used in a sex "change" operation, because there's not enough material there.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

As others have said, young kids who think they're trans most often grow of it by the time they hit puberty. While the blockers themselves don't cause sterilisation, they lead to transition hormones, which mean the child will never have been fertile in the first place.

Take Jazz Jennings. She's an MtF who transitioned young. Thanks to blockers and hormones, her penis never developed, and it can't be used in a sex "change" operation, because there's not enough material there.

Yes, Jazz is an exceptionally sad case. And yes, this is another issue with blockers. If the patient ever wants to go for full SRS in the future, the surgeons have nothing to work with. So whilst Jazz may look more feminine, the sex dysphoria will be even more horrendous as she can never have the surgery that she thinks would help her. Due to having the penis of a prepubescent child and not enough 'material' to work with. All so sad, and again, I don't see why there is so much support for it, at all. So many reasons to be against...

I expect Jazz will have huge health issue in the future anyway, due to blockers and cross sex hormones.

[Oliver_W]

There have been no studies on the long term effects of blockers+SRS, so I guess now she's started the ball (heehee) rolling, she may as well be the weathervane.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]


true, I think we are causing more confusion in young minds by trying to cover every possibility instead of being practical, if a child said they wanted to be an astronaut at 8 would we put them into space ..

Totally 100%.Said it better than i was thinking.

Alot of kids may find that when they hit puberty these thoughts go.Atleast give them a chance to develop properly into adults and then they can decide for themselves.
Doctors shouldn’t be entertaining the idea of messing with kids hormones like this.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Agreed. I do not believe for a second that a ten year old fully knows or understands something like that. Doctors could end up on charges of abuse and with Hugh litigation claims if and when the consequences for the child in the future are not as expected.

Hugh litigation?

Spoiler:

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Wrong wrong wrong. Even sop called 'harmless' puberty blockers...which are actually chemotherapy drugs.

One day we will look back on this as a child abuse scandal of massive proportions. At the moment though, too many are willing to bury their heads in the sand about it all. So many kids will be harmed by this. Even now there are a fair few kids who want to reverse the damage done to them. Its just ****ing wring and I don't understand how anyone can ever agree with it. Some idiot parents are asking for referrals for their 3 year olds to 'gender clinics' ffs. And transactivists are fighting for 'less gatekeeping'?! Really?!

Like 80% of kids with gender confusion effectively grow out of it, and when they are older most of these simply are gay adults. 'Transing kids' is nothing more than modern day eugenics. How there seems to be widespread support for this I don't know. Let them wear what they like, play with what they like and so on. Using chemo drugs to delay puberty is just bat****. Also, 'reversible' is only technically...as 100% of kids put on blockers move onto cross sex hormones, probably as halting puberty also halts brain development so they get stuck in the same mindset.

I agree with niamh. Its child abuse. On a huge scale. I don't doubt the parents are trying to do whats best for the kids (especially after having distorted suicide stats thrown at them by the likes of 'mermaids' who are meant to HELP families like this) but its all just so ****ing wrong.

There aren’t enough ‘s for this

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Thalidomide was also given out by doctors like candy. Prozac given for mental health problems can make people suicidal. It may be years before we know whether this is 'comfort for thousands' or a dreadful thing to do to children.

Remember we are talking about children here, about altering via medication the natural changes of their bodies before they are developed.

If a boy wants to live as a girl, why he can't he do that without being given drugs to mess with his physical development before he is an adult? Why is this even given on the NHS as healthcare?

Exactly

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

post of the thread, look at all the kids who were given the wonder drug Ritalin to control their behaviour instead exploring other ways of dealing with ADHD and other behavioural issues

Yeah, I never had a child with ADHD but I'm sure it can't be healthy to be drugging a child up like that. I've read changing diets and things like that can help alot with kids with ADHD but that's alot more effort than giving them a pill