[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Moving the goalposts did you actually read the thread? DR also supplied evidence about stabbing not hurting as did Niamh

Mine was an anecdotal story about something that happened to me I wasn't using that as proof of anything. I've never had my throat slit, I'm sure it's awful . The only point I was ever trying to make in this thread is that the way animals are killed for meat is horrible in general and I didn't think there should be any kind of a moral platform with it no matter what side you're coming from, they're all morally wrong imo (and I say that as a meat eater)

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

You are making misrepresentations about my posts

Did Niamh and DR contribute to the painless stabbing conversation or not?


Once you have confirmed I will be delighted to continue with my useful observations.

Why are you asking me to clarify things that other people have said? Ask them.

If you refuse to add anything to the topic then you have already lost the debate. I won't play along with your trolling anymore, either get back on topic and actually try to debate or admit you are wrong.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Why are you asking me to clarify things that other people have said? Ask them.

If you refuse to add anything to the topic then you have already lost the debate. I won't play along with your trolling anymore, either get back on topic and actually try to debate or admit you are wrong.

Because you claimed only I was referring to just one person in the thread which was clearly inaccurate. Its pretty pointless debating with you when you clearly do not remember what other people posted.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Mine was an anecdotal story about something that happened to me I wasn't using that as proof of anything. I've never had my throat slit, I'm sure it's awful . The only point I was ever trying to make in this thread is that the way animals are killed for meat is horrible in general and I didn't think there should be any kind of a moral platform with it no matter what side you're coming from, they're all morally wrong imo (and I say that as a meat eater)

you provided anecdonal evidence? it's there, its on the thread, its not just Vicky as Dezzy seems to think

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Because you claimed only I was referring to just one person in the thread which was clearly inaccurate. Its pretty pointless debating with you when you clearly do not remember what other people posted.

excuse me I never said that I didn't think the animals felt nothing, I said the opposite in fact, I said it was all awful

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Because you claimed only I was referring to just one person in the thread which was clearly inaccurate. Its pretty pointless debating with you when you clearly do not remember what other people posted.

I've written paragraphs in response to your post that you have completely ignored in favour of focusing on minute details that ultimately do not affect what I've said. Are you going to respond to my points or are you going to carry on trolling?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

you provided anecdonal evidence? it's there, its on the thread, its not just Vicky as Dezzy seems to think

So I spend the whole thread saying that I think both are horrendous but you choose to ignore all of those posts and pick one where I told a personal story to Vicky that happened to me and decided that therefore I was lying in all my other posts? I have never had my throat cut I don't know what that feels like but I'm sure it is ****, I'm also sure getting hung upside down and dipped in an electrified bath before getting my head cut off is **** too. I'm not denying that halal slaughter is horrible, I'm sure Kosher slaughter is horrible, I'm also sure western slaughter is horrible but you seem to think that's fine, so you're the one pretending that some slaughter is just fine not me

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I still believe it's more of a health and safety issue than anything as to why non-stun methods are banned in those countries.

Possible of course.

I believe that stunning is used in our country more for a health and safety thing than a welfare thing. So it would stand to reason that as much (if not more) emphasis was put on health and safety of the workers in those countries.

I'm a bit all over my place on my views on this, as I have never really thought deeply into the matter before tbh. I have been pretty firmly in the...living conditions matter so much more than final few minutes of life camp for as long as I can remember. Until for some reason I became overinvested in this thread. Which is nothing to do with cultural beliefs, more because it seems rational to me that a clean cut to the throat with a sharp enough knife should cause very little pain, if any at all and would be over quickly. And it was interesting to see a study posted that seemed to back up my thoughts on this. I think this is where I became over invested and maybe started getting a little silly with my bold statements

Obviously if we could get it where living conditions were always good, AND we had a universal method of death which was proven beyond all doubt to cause the least pain then that would be much preferable. But thats unlikely to happen anytime soon. Maybe this lab grown meat stuff might end some of this debate. Though we will always need to slaughter animals for food, even of the whole world went veggie. Unless we also gave up our pets at the same time...as it is definite cruelty to make a carnivore pet survive on a vegetarian diet IMO.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

that's what you folks are claiming regarding throat slitting

No it isn't?

I guess the view changes depending on the animal

Yes that's pretty standard for most people. Are you a vegetarian, Cherie?

point proven

No, it isn't

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Possible of course.

I believe that stunning is used in our country more for a health and safety thing than a welfare thing. So it would stand to reason that as much (if not more) emphasis was put on health and safety of the workers in those countries.

I'm a bit all over my place on my views on this, as I have never really thought deeply into the matter before tbh. I have been pretty firmly in the...living conditions matter so much more than final few minutes of life camp for as long as I can remember. Until for some reason I became overinvested in this thread. Which is nothing to do with cultural beliefs, more because it seems rational to me that a clean cut to the throat with a sharp enough knife should cause very little pain, if any at all and would be over quickly. And it was interesting to see a study posted that seemed to back up my thoughts on this. I think this is where I became over invested and maybe started getting a little silly with my bold statements

Obviously if we could get it where living conditions were always good, AND we had a universal method of death which was proven beyond all doubt to cause the least pain then that would be much preferable. But thats unlikely to happen anytime soon. Maybe this lab grown meat stuff might end some of this debate. Though we will always need to slaughter animals for food, even of the whole world went veggie. Unless we also gave up our pets at the same time...as it is definite cruelty to make a carnivore pet survive on a vegetarian diet IMO.

I feel very much the same, there is no kind method of killing an animal for meat and, judging by studies of how much the animal suffers with each method, the only real difference with western techniques is the delusion we place ourselves under. It would be lovely if there was a kind way of killing animals for meat but there isn't one that won't spoil the meat.

More emphasis should be placed on living conditions and it wouldn't surprise me if the countries you listed earlier have laws and regulations that reflect that. Battery farms and the like should be illegal, it would certainly help the farming industry if industrial battery farms are outlawed in favour of more traditional and kinder farming methods more common to the average farm.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I feel very much the same, there is no kind method of killing an animal for meat and, judging by studies of how much the animal suffers with each method, the only real difference with western techniques is the delusion we place ourselves under. It would be lovely if there was a kind way of killing animals for meat but there isn't one that won't spoil the meat.

More emphasis should be placed on living conditions and it wouldn't surprise me if the countries you listed earlier have laws and regulations that reflect that. Battery farms and the like should be illegal, it would certainly help the farming industry if industrial battery farms are outlawed in favour of more traditional and kinder farming methods more common to the average farm.

They have battery farms for rabbits as well over in Spain, they're awful

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

you provided anecdonal evidence? it's there, its on the thread, its not just Vicky as Dezzy seems to think

It was just Vicky (from what I have read) that was claiming that cutting an animals throat is completely painless though. Which was what i thought the argument was about and why I quickly said that yes, I did say that.

My main reasons for such statements were anecdotal of course. The worse the sudden injury is, the less it hurts (cuts and such, breaks are an entirely different ballgame) as a rule, going on what others say regularly about such injuries, and personal experience. I purposely cut my own hand with a piece of glass when I was a teen (I can show you the scar if you like, so you know I am not making this up for the sake of argument ) to stupidly try and prove that this glass was not sharp (spoiler...it ****ing was, clearly)

I swear to god, I felt no pain and even said 'hah, see I was right' before watching the blood drain from my friends faces as they saw all of the blood. And even after seeing the blood I felt nothing. To the point where I (as a morbid person in general) was finding it quite funny to chase my best mate about showing him the tendons, which were clearly visible from the depth of the cut, inside my hand. I felt no pain at all until a good 20 minutes after doing it. And even the pain that came then was not pain as such, it was more...stinging...I assume the start of my body trying to heal itself. The 'real pain' did not actually hit until a few hours afterwards.

Going off my own experience in this instance (and another..which doesn't make quite as gruesome a story so I won't bore you with that one, another deep serious cut, anyway), I would say that having a clean cut to the throat would be painless. As you would be dead (assuming the arteries were cut) before it even started stinging.

My dad very nearly killed himself by not even realising he had cut his inside leg very deeply with a stanley blade after stupidly cutting towards himself instead of away from. My father in law has pretty recently cut himself on his arm (luckily outside arm rather than inner, which could have been deadly) and did not notice this until he felt blood drip onto his trousers, some 10 minutes after the injury. Such accounts are not rare at all.

Anecdotal data means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Just trying to explain a bit why I hold the views I do tbh...and why I have been the way I have been on this thread...

I may have behaved problematically and I do apologize. Its not often I get so invested in threads.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So I spend the whole thread saying that I think both are horrendous but you choose to ignore all of those posts and pick one where I told a personal story to Vicky that happened to me and decided that therefore I was lying in all my other posts? I have never had my throat cut I don't know what that feels like but I'm sure it is ****, I'm also sure getting hung upside down and dipped in an electrified bath before getting my head cut off is **** too. I'm not denying that halal slaughter is horrible, I'm sure Kosher slaughter is horrible, I'm also sure western slaughter is horrible but you seem to think that's fine, so you're the one pretending that some slaughter is just fine not me

I think the problem here is that what Cherie and I have said has been misinterpreted but I'm not really sure why. I haven't said anything form is slaughter is good and I don't think she has either. I've just said that it seems preferable to use the least painless way which according to the RSPCA is stunning.

Also people seem to have accepted studies posted by DR as fact while ignoring the RSPCA information I provided.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwe...ghter/factfile

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I think the problem here is that what Cherie and I have said has been misinterpreted but I'm not really sure why. I haven't said anything form is slaughter is good and I don't think she has either. I've just said that it seems preferable to use the least painless way which according to the RSPCA is stunning.

Also people seem to have accepted studies posted by DR as fact while ignoring the RSPCA information I provided.

well I can only speak for myself and I haven't commented on any of the studies posted here, my only opinion on it is they're all awful and no side has the moral high ground

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I think the problem here is that what Cherie and I have said has been misinterpreted but I'm not really sure why. I haven't said anything form is slaughter is good and I don't think she has either. I've just said that it seems preferable to use the least painless way which according to the RSPCA is stunning.

Also people seem to have accepted studies posted by DR as fact while ignoring the RSPCA information I provided.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwe...ghter/factfile

But as far as we know, the RSPCA hasn't done any scientific studies, therefore, they can only be going on what they witness. Death by stunning looks kinder to the human eye.

As for the RSPCA, I wouldn't trust that charity with a bargepole. I had so many bad dealings with them regarding their utter disregard for horses welfare, I wiped my hands of them years ago.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

It was just Vicky (from what I have read) that was claiming that cutting an animals throat is completely painless though. Which was what i thought the argument was about and why I quickly said that yes, I did say that.

My main reasons for such statements were anecdotal of course. The worse the sudden injury is, the less it hurts (cuts and such, breaks are an entirely different ballgame) as a rule, going on what others say regularly about such injuries, and personal experience. I purposely cut my own hand with a piece of glass when I was a teen (I can show you the scar if you like, so you know I am not making this up for the sake of argument ) to stupidly try and prove that this glass was not sharp (spoiler...it ****ing was, clearly)

I swear to god, I felt no pain and even said 'hah, see I was right' before watching the blood drain from my friends faces as they saw all of the blood. And even after seeing the blood I felt nothing. To the point where I (as a morbid person in general) was finding it quite funny to chase my best mate about showing him the tendons, which were clearly visible from the depth of the cut, inside my hand. I felt no pain at all until a good 20 minutes after doing it. And even the pain that came then was not pain as such, it was more...stinging...I assume the start of my body trying to heal itself. The 'real pain' did not actually hit until a few hours afterwards.

Going off my own experience in this instance (and another..which doesn't make quite as gruesome a story so I won't bore you with that one, another deep serious cut, anyway), I would say that having a clean cut to the throat would be painless. As you would be dead (assuming the arteries were cut) before it even started stinging.

My dad very nearly killed himself by not even realising he had cut his inside leg very deeply with a stanley blade after stupidly cutting towards himself instead of away from. My father in law has pretty recently cut himself on his arm (luckily outside arm rather than inner, which could have been deadly) and did not notice this until he felt blood drip onto his trousers, some 10 minutes after the injury. Such accounts are not rare at all.

Anecdotal data means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Just trying to explain a bit why I hold the views I do tbh...and why I have been the way I have been on this thread...

I may have behaved problematically and I do apologize. Its not often I get so invested in threads.

I can see what you are saying. What I think is that the neck/throat is different in regards being cut to the point you are making because you have the additional distress of gasping for breath. Also the not noticing effect may just depend on where the injury is? I've never personally injured myself and not noticed. I had a bad head injury as a child caused by a spike and I screamed blue murder while spurting much blood. It's the only personal experience I can lean on. Luckily I lived!

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

well I can only speak for myself and I haven't commented on any of the studies posted here, my only opinion on it is they're all awful and no side has the moral high ground

You are absolutely right. There is one thing every one of us wants and that's the least painful death for the animal. We can debate and argue all we like but at the end of the day, we all want what we believe to be the best outcome.

Nobody is being immoral here.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Lots of things happen in real life that we don't allow videos of to be posted. If you have a problem with these rules maybe you should PM an admin about it?

Quick..dezzy has posted a video thats innapropriate for children...guess that ones ok though huh.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Quick..dezzy has posted a video thats innapropriate for children...guess that ones ok though huh.

Have you reported it Parmnion?

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Have you reported it Parmnion?

Christ no...that would make me a hypocrite like yourself.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Christ no...that would make me a hypocrite like yourself.

How can you call me a hypocrite when you won't even tell me where this inappropriate video is? I haven't seen it but I'm a hypocrite for not deleting it? That's not logical Parmnion. If you'd reported it or atleast quoted it and it was inappropriate and I didn't delete then you could call me a hypocrite you silly billy

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

But as far as we know, the RSPCA hasn't done any scientific studies, therefore, they can only be going on what they witness. Death by stunning looks kinder to the human eye.

As for the RSPCA, I wouldn't trust that charity with a bargepole. I had so many bad dealings with them regarding their utter disregard for horses welfare, I wiped my hands of them years ago.

I think it's pretty unlikely the RSPCA made it up as they went along.

There is also the study by Massey University mentioned here:

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ous-slaughter/

Also if you read the article it explains a previous study that found in favour of the halaal method may have been flawed according to it's author.

As for what organisation you trust that's kind of moot and doesn't make their information less true.

But you are right in a later post when you say we all hope for the least horrible outcome for the animal. I'm sure that is so.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Christ no...that would make me a hypocrite like yourself.

I think you are being childish here because you are upset your link wasn't allowed. You need to let it go as it isn't reflecting your point of view well. If you have a problem with something someone else posted, report it.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I think it's pretty unlikely the RSPCA made it up as they went along.

There is also the study by Massey University mentioned here:

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ous-slaughter/

Also if you read the article it explains a previous study that found in favour of the halaal method may have been flawed according to it's author.

As for what organisation you trust that's kind of moot and doesn't make their information less true.

But you are right in a later post when you say we all hope for the least horrible outcome for the animal. I'm sure that is so.

Good find Jaxie. I'm trying to find the actual study but its clearly some genuine research that has gone on here. Maybe I won't be moving to Kosha meat quite so quickly.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

They have battery farms for rabbits as well over in Spain, they're awful

One of the worst videos I ever saw was Angora rabbits having their feet tied so they were outstretched and couldn't move, and some moron pulling its fur out to make Angora wool,it was barbaric,I can hear the screams from that rabbit now,worst is when the morans have got what they want,they put the rabbit back in its cage until fur grows again,then the poor thing has to endure it all again,this is their life,they would be better off dead imo.