[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You equated one person's arguments with everyone's and you've been ignoring evidence that proves what you are saying wrong and instead you're trying to take the thread off topic by talking down to people by acting like people don't understand what you are saying when it's the opposite, everyone understands what you are saying and it's nonsense.

Culling wild pests and putting pets to sleep is a completely different ball game to killing animals for meat. You are getting off topic in an attempt to move the goalposts because your argument that Halal slaughter is cruel in comparison to western methods simply does not hold water and there is scientific proof from multiple sources provided in this topic that prove what you believe simply isn't true.

This topic is about whether it's more cruel to stun an animal before killing it or not and the science tells us that stunning animals prior to slitting their throat causes them more distress than just slitting their throat and ending it in few seconds. The Culling of wild animals and such has no relevance in this thread and it's just your attempt to obfuscate the discussion.

Moving the goalposts did you actually read the thread? DR also supplied evidence about stabbing not hurting as did Niamh

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Moving the goalposts did you actually read the thread? DR also supplied evidence about stabbing not hurting as did Niamh

If you're going to ignore what I've said just to make snide comments then I have my answer. You have nothing useful to add to this topic and you are floundering.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If you're going to ignore what I've said just to make snide comments then I have my answer. You have nothing useful to add to this topic and you are floundering.

You are making misrepresentations about my posts

Did Niamh and DR contribute to the painless stabbing conversation or not?


Once you have confirmed I will be delighted to continue with my useful observations.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

You are making misrepresentations about my posts

Did Niamh and DR contribute to the painless stabbing conversation or not?


Once you have confirmed I will be delighted to continue with my useful observations.

Why are you asking me to clarify things that other people have said? Ask them.

If you refuse to add anything to the topic then you have already lost the debate. I won't play along with your trolling anymore, either get back on topic and actually try to debate or admit you are wrong.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Why are you asking me to clarify things that other people have said? Ask them.

If you refuse to add anything to the topic then you have already lost the debate. I won't play along with your trolling anymore, either get back on topic and actually try to debate or admit you are wrong.

Because you claimed only I was referring to just one person in the thread which was clearly inaccurate. Its pretty pointless debating with you when you clearly do not remember what other people posted.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Because you claimed only I was referring to just one person in the thread which was clearly inaccurate. Its pretty pointless debating with you when you clearly do not remember what other people posted.

excuse me I never said that I didn't think the animals felt nothing, I said the opposite in fact, I said it was all awful

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Because you claimed only I was referring to just one person in the thread which was clearly inaccurate. Its pretty pointless debating with you when you clearly do not remember what other people posted.

I've written paragraphs in response to your post that you have completely ignored in favour of focusing on minute details that ultimately do not affect what I've said. Are you going to respond to my points or are you going to carry on trolling?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Moving the goalposts did you actually read the thread? DR also supplied evidence about stabbing not hurting as did Niamh

Mine was an anecdotal story about something that happened to me I wasn't using that as proof of anything. I've never had my throat slit, I'm sure it's awful . The only point I was ever trying to make in this thread is that the way animals are killed for meat is horrible in general and I didn't think there should be any kind of a moral platform with it no matter what side you're coming from, they're all morally wrong imo (and I say that as a meat eater)

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Mine was an anecdotal story about something that happened to me I wasn't using that as proof of anything. I've never had my throat slit, I'm sure it's awful . The only point I was ever trying to make in this thread is that the way animals are killed for meat is horrible in general and I didn't think there should be any kind of a moral platform with it no matter what side you're coming from, they're all morally wrong imo (and I say that as a meat eater)

you provided anecdonal evidence? it's there, its on the thread, its not just Vicky as Dezzy seems to think

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

you provided anecdonal evidence? it's there, its on the thread, its not just Vicky as Dezzy seems to think

So I spend the whole thread saying that I think both are horrendous but you choose to ignore all of those posts and pick one where I told a personal story to Vicky that happened to me and decided that therefore I was lying in all my other posts? I have never had my throat cut I don't know what that feels like but I'm sure it is ****, I'm also sure getting hung upside down and dipped in an electrified bath before getting my head cut off is **** too. I'm not denying that halal slaughter is horrible, I'm sure Kosher slaughter is horrible, I'm also sure western slaughter is horrible but you seem to think that's fine, so you're the one pretending that some slaughter is just fine not me

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So I spend the whole thread saying that I think both are horrendous but you choose to ignore all of those posts and pick one where I told a personal story to Vicky that happened to me and decided that therefore I was lying in all my other posts? I have never had my throat cut I don't know what that feels like but I'm sure it is ****, I'm also sure getting hung upside down and dipped in an electrified bath before getting my head cut off is **** too. I'm not denying that halal slaughter is horrible, I'm sure Kosher slaughter is horrible, I'm also sure western slaughter is horrible but you seem to think that's fine, so you're the one pretending that some slaughter is just fine not me

I think the problem here is that what Cherie and I have said has been misinterpreted but I'm not really sure why. I haven't said anything form is slaughter is good and I don't think she has either. I've just said that it seems preferable to use the least painless way which according to the RSPCA is stunning.

Also people seem to have accepted studies posted by DR as fact while ignoring the RSPCA information I provided.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwe...ghter/factfile

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I think the problem here is that what Cherie and I have said has been misinterpreted but I'm not really sure why. I haven't said anything form is slaughter is good and I don't think she has either. I've just said that it seems preferable to use the least painless way which according to the RSPCA is stunning.

Also people seem to have accepted studies posted by DR as fact while ignoring the RSPCA information I provided.

well I can only speak for myself and I haven't commented on any of the studies posted here, my only opinion on it is they're all awful and no side has the moral high ground

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

well I can only speak for myself and I haven't commented on any of the studies posted here, my only opinion on it is they're all awful and no side has the moral high ground

You are absolutely right. There is one thing every one of us wants and that's the least painful death for the animal. We can debate and argue all we like but at the end of the day, we all want what we believe to be the best outcome.

Nobody is being immoral here.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I think the problem here is that what Cherie and I have said has been misinterpreted but I'm not really sure why. I haven't said anything form is slaughter is good and I don't think she has either. I've just said that it seems preferable to use the least painless way which according to the RSPCA is stunning.

Also people seem to have accepted studies posted by DR as fact while ignoring the RSPCA information I provided.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwe...ghter/factfile

But as far as we know, the RSPCA hasn't done any scientific studies, therefore, they can only be going on what they witness. Death by stunning looks kinder to the human eye.

As for the RSPCA, I wouldn't trust that charity with a bargepole. I had so many bad dealings with them regarding their utter disregard for horses welfare, I wiped my hands of them years ago.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

But as far as we know, the RSPCA hasn't done any scientific studies, therefore, they can only be going on what they witness. Death by stunning looks kinder to the human eye.

As for the RSPCA, I wouldn't trust that charity with a bargepole. I had so many bad dealings with them regarding their utter disregard for horses welfare, I wiped my hands of them years ago.

I think it's pretty unlikely the RSPCA made it up as they went along.

There is also the study by Massey University mentioned here:

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ous-slaughter/

Also if you read the article it explains a previous study that found in favour of the halaal method may have been flawed according to it's author.

As for what organisation you trust that's kind of moot and doesn't make their information less true.

But you are right in a later post when you say we all hope for the least horrible outcome for the animal. I'm sure that is so.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

you provided anecdonal evidence? it's there, its on the thread, its not just Vicky as Dezzy seems to think

It was just Vicky (from what I have read) that was claiming that cutting an animals throat is completely painless though. Which was what i thought the argument was about and why I quickly said that yes, I did say that.

My main reasons for such statements were anecdotal of course. The worse the sudden injury is, the less it hurts (cuts and such, breaks are an entirely different ballgame) as a rule, going on what others say regularly about such injuries, and personal experience. I purposely cut my own hand with a piece of glass when I was a teen (I can show you the scar if you like, so you know I am not making this up for the sake of argument ) to stupidly try and prove that this glass was not sharp (spoiler...it ****ing was, clearly)

I swear to god, I felt no pain and even said 'hah, see I was right' before watching the blood drain from my friends faces as they saw all of the blood. And even after seeing the blood I felt nothing. To the point where I (as a morbid person in general) was finding it quite funny to chase my best mate about showing him the tendons, which were clearly visible from the depth of the cut, inside my hand. I felt no pain at all until a good 20 minutes after doing it. And even the pain that came then was not pain as such, it was more...stinging...I assume the start of my body trying to heal itself. The 'real pain' did not actually hit until a few hours afterwards.

Going off my own experience in this instance (and another..which doesn't make quite as gruesome a story so I won't bore you with that one, another deep serious cut, anyway), I would say that having a clean cut to the throat would be painless. As you would be dead (assuming the arteries were cut) before it even started stinging.

My dad very nearly killed himself by not even realising he had cut his inside leg very deeply with a stanley blade after stupidly cutting towards himself instead of away from. My father in law has pretty recently cut himself on his arm (luckily outside arm rather than inner, which could have been deadly) and did not notice this until he felt blood drip onto his trousers, some 10 minutes after the injury. Such accounts are not rare at all.

Anecdotal data means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Just trying to explain a bit why I hold the views I do tbh...and why I have been the way I have been on this thread...

I may have behaved problematically and I do apologize. Its not often I get so invested in threads.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

It was just Vicky (from what I have read) that was claiming that cutting an animals throat is completely painless though. Which was what i thought the argument was about and why I quickly said that yes, I did say that.

My main reasons for such statements were anecdotal of course. The worse the sudden injury is, the less it hurts (cuts and such, breaks are an entirely different ballgame) as a rule, going on what others say regularly about such injuries, and personal experience. I purposely cut my own hand with a piece of glass when I was a teen (I can show you the scar if you like, so you know I am not making this up for the sake of argument ) to stupidly try and prove that this glass was not sharp (spoiler...it ****ing was, clearly)

I swear to god, I felt no pain and even said 'hah, see I was right' before watching the blood drain from my friends faces as they saw all of the blood. And even after seeing the blood I felt nothing. To the point where I (as a morbid person in general) was finding it quite funny to chase my best mate about showing him the tendons, which were clearly visible from the depth of the cut, inside my hand. I felt no pain at all until a good 20 minutes after doing it. And even the pain that came then was not pain as such, it was more...stinging...I assume the start of my body trying to heal itself. The 'real pain' did not actually hit until a few hours afterwards.

Going off my own experience in this instance (and another..which doesn't make quite as gruesome a story so I won't bore you with that one, another deep serious cut, anyway), I would say that having a clean cut to the throat would be painless. As you would be dead (assuming the arteries were cut) before it even started stinging.

My dad very nearly killed himself by not even realising he had cut his inside leg very deeply with a stanley blade after stupidly cutting towards himself instead of away from. My father in law has pretty recently cut himself on his arm (luckily outside arm rather than inner, which could have been deadly) and did not notice this until he felt blood drip onto his trousers, some 10 minutes after the injury. Such accounts are not rare at all.

Anecdotal data means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Just trying to explain a bit why I hold the views I do tbh...and why I have been the way I have been on this thread...

I may have behaved problematically and I do apologize. Its not often I get so invested in threads.

I can see what you are saying. What I think is that the neck/throat is different in regards being cut to the point you are making because you have the additional distress of gasping for breath. Also the not noticing effect may just depend on where the injury is? I've never personally injured myself and not noticed. I had a bad head injury as a child caused by a spike and I screamed blue murder while spurting much blood. It's the only personal experience I can lean on. Luckily I lived!