[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Maru

Why does a difference in opinion have to lead to an examination of our morals as individuals? This is the toxic ingredient in these discussions.

The thought process behind an idea in our mind involves free will. We break social norms all the time when using our free will. We have to. It's impossible to be emotionally healthy otherwise, much less be open as an individual, if we can't test one idea fully against one another. So I don't see the point of looking for potential "minefields" in someone's way of thinking simply on the basis it could lead to immoral conclusions... free thinking is supposed to be hazardous to our belief systems, otherwise we will tend to only form idealistic and unrealistic conclusions from ideas in general... that's the critical thinking process in a nutshell.

Some of us want to hear all ideas, not just those from the current events echo chamber. Otherwise, what would be the point of having any discussion without a sounding board to test our ideas... if there need be moral qualifiers in order to engage in the competition of ideas, then those aren't real debates.

Free will?! hahaha there's no such thing here, collective will is the cultural norm the majority will prevails.

[Marsh.]

Free will to you is having an opinion that is above being questioned or debated by someone else? Because sharing your opinion on a public forum is pointless if you take this stance at someone daring to pick out what they see as holes in your argument.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

No, Kizzy, when you're sexist, you're sexist regardless of the attitude behind it.

Am I a sexist, What drove you to that conclusion?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Free will to you is having an opinion that is above being questioned or debated by someone else? Because sharing your opinion on a public forum is pointless if you take this stance at someone daring to pick out what they see as holes in your argument.

Nobody has picked out anything, and you can't mean TS as he doesn't even have an argument :/

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Am I a sexist, What drove you to that conclusion?

Kizzy, you constantly bring up the fact a member is a man and use that to disparage their contributions to the thread on a frequent basis.

You could be quoted by a female member and a male member with the exact same question or response and you'd automatically accuse the male member of "mansplaining" or of daring to tell a woman how she should think.

It's ridiculous.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Kizzy, you constantly bring up the fact a member is a man and use that to disparage their contributions to the thread on a frequent basis.

You could be quoted by a female member and a male member with the exact same question or response and you'd automatically accuse the male member of "mansplaining" or of daring to tell a woman how she should think.

It's ridiculous.

In the context of this thread that's ridiculous as this whole premise here now is me reacting to what TS suggested was the 'problem' with the women on the forum and him not thinking they are reacting appropriately!

As I mentioned earlier it's happened before on other threads I just started to point it out recently and it became a bit of a 'thing'.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

In the context of this thread that's ridiculous as this whole premise here now is me reacting to what TS suggested was the 'problem' with the women on the forum and him not thinking they are reacting appropriately!

As I mentioned earlier it's happened before on other threads I just started to point it out recently and it became a bit of a 'thing'.

In the context of this thread, he hasn't mentioned a problem with women once.

Also, my understanding of his complaint was the intent behind their reactions/stance, not the reactions themselves.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

In the context of this thread, he hasn't mentioned a problem with women once.

Also, my understanding of his complaint was the intent behind their reactions/stance, not the reactions themselves.

Ah well any complaints relating to my stance must be issued in writing to www.dontgiveafeck.co.uk

[Vicky.]

The intent behind my stance is to hopefully stop all men from being able to access female areas. I think its just a bonkers proposal and do not understand how anyone can support it tbh. I have no issue with transsexual people and do think that fully transitioned people should use the areas for the sex they are trying to be..and before that I guess if they 'pass', noone would know anyway. But honestly, I would very much prefer no penises in female prisons and such. I think its dangerous and it is a disaster waiting to happen (infact it has happened already..and the person with a penis was just moved...to another female prison )

I think most people who say they are 'transgender' are just jumping on the bandwagon so to speak,especially children..or are convinced that not following the correct stereotypes makes them trans...rather than just an individual. I also think that stonewall should stop linking fetishists with transsexual people as this is doing transsexual people a lot of harm. I don't see why they are linked in the first place.

I am very very much against self ID in any form. This is why I am suddenly posting a lot on trans threads, as the law change is actually being considered NOW. And before rabid transactivists started their ****, noone really cared. But when asking one question leads to a variety of death and rape threats..this tends to make people look up on the topic that noones meant to talk about, it did with me anyway.

Answering as I am 99% sure TS was on about me, not you kizzy

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Ah well any complaints relating to my stance must be issued in writing to www.dontgiveafeck.co.uk

There you go again.

It's a public forum, we're all entitled to air our views, including about what's others have posted. I don't need you to give a ****, but if you have such an issue with people commenting then why you bother with a discussion forum is a ****ing mystery.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The intent behind my stance is to hopefully stop all men from being able to access female areas. I think its just a bonkers proposal and do not understand how anyone can support it tbh. I have no issue with transsexual people and do think that fully transitioned people should use the areas for the sex they are trying to be..and before that I guess if they 'pass', noone would know anyway. But honestly, I would very much prefer no penises in female prisons and such. I think its dangerous and it is a disaster waiting to happen (infact it has happened already..and the person with a penis was just moved...to another female prison )

I think most people who say they are 'transgender' are just jumping on the bandwagon so to speak,especially children..or are convinced that not following the correct stereotypes makes them trans...rather than just an individual. I also think that stonewall should stop linking fetishists with transsexual people as this is doing transsexual people a lot of harm. I don't see why they are linked in the first place.

I am very very much against self ID in any form. This is why I am suddenly posting a lot on trans threads, as the law change is actually being considered NOW. And before rabid transactivists started their ****, noone really cared. But when asking one question leads to a variety of death and rape threats..this tends to make people look up on the topic that noones meant to talk about, it did with me anyway.

Answering as I am 99% sure TS was on about me, not you kizzy

Don't be daft Vicky, everything's about Kizzy.

[Kizzy]

Thanks for that Vicky, I feel the same although I'd say that was clear from the off to be fair.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Don't be daft Vicky, everything's about Kizzy.

Not everything....Most things.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea".

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it .

..I’m not sure it’s so much ‘fixation’ TS...but more about the proposed legislation being very much a discussion thing atm...whatever the topic, we tend to often become ‘momentarily fixated’....with concerns about many things...?...

...I’m still trying to get my thoughts together with this, I have to say...so maybe I’m becoming a little fixated myself, you could say.....but yeah, there will seem to be ‘fixation’, in trying to understand because of the proposed legislation etc...

...this is a good article actually TS, which I’ve found helpful...I’m sure there are many articles about the topic but this is something I found last week through these discussions....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40713645


...I hope that links ok, I hate iPads...there should be a safe space to protect against ipad stuff...

...anyways..(..my belief and understanding atm..)... is the concerns are very specific...of protecting vulnerability against ‘predatory males’...because of the legislation leaving ‘open to abuse’...so when terms are used as has been discussed recently..of ‘guys in frocks’ for instance...which does feel ‘transphobic’, I understand completely...but what makes such terms not transphobic though...is that they’re not being applied to any transgender person..?...they’re being applied to exactly what they say on the tin..to those who specific individuals who would abuse because of the proposed legislation...?...predatory males in frocks is maybe how it should more be, for a better understanding and clarity..?...

....as I say, I’m still trying to get my thoughts and my own understandings completely with this...so a Gender Recognition Certificate, which would mean that someone has ‘lived for two years’ if (..for whatever reason..)...surgical procedures haven’t been opted for..?...atm that is, that two year period is required for gender transition to be recognised..?....which would seem similar to requiring a DBS certificate to be around vulnerables in certain jobs etc...so I do understand when jobs are involved and obviously that certificate will always be shown and seen...but with a Gender Recognition Certificate...how will that be known in someone using a public loo for instance, how is it known atm...?...how is it known if someone is transgender or a ‘predatory male’...is the certificate carried everywhere...like an ‘ID proof’ would be..?...


...it’s all quite complex and confusing.....for me anyway but it might just be me...TS it’s like the feminism discussion a little while ago...’a place of equality has to be reached first..’...which is what you rightly said....and a place of equality has not been reached for transgender people because transgender is only in the infancy of being understood in recent times...and the ‘clash’ it’s having atm ..(..with this proposed legislation..)...is with feminism which still hasn’t reached its equal state either...so there the ‘sticking points’ come again...feminism knows and understands inequality completely...which is surely why it would naturally understand and want to give..that equality to transgender people...but in doing that, it would also be ‘giving’ to those who would seek to abuse, the predatory male..?...the guys in frocks as it were..?...so there is obvious reasons why the resistance is such as it seems to be which is seeming ‘fixated’...?....
.

[Ammi]

...I guess what I’m saying is that the resistance to the resistance...would (..appear..)..to be coming from males...and why would that be...because that ‘equal place’ which feminism continues to strive for, never had to be reached for by males..?...

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Maru

Why does a difference in opinion have to lead to an examination of our morals as individuals? This is the toxic ingredient in these discussions.

The thought process behind an idea in our mind involves free will. We break social norms all the time when using our free will. We have to. It's impossible to be emotionally healthy otherwise, much less be open as an individual, if we can't test one idea fully against one another. So I don't see the point of looking for potential "minefields" in someone's way of thinking simply on the basis it could lead to immoral conclusions... free thinking is supposed to be hazardous to our belief systems, otherwise we will tend to only form idealistic and unrealistic conclusions from ideas in general... that's the critical thinking process in a nutshell.

Some of us want to hear all ideas, not just those from the current events echo chamber. Otherwise, what would be the point of having any discussion without a sounding board to test our ideas... if there need be moral qualifiers in order to engage in the competition of ideas, then those aren't real debates.

It's always the same moral accusations from the same people. Whatever the discussion.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I guess what I’m saying is that the resistance to the resistance...would (..appear..)..to be coming from males...and why would that be...because that ‘equal place’ which feminism continues to strive for, never had to be reached for by males..?...

Agree completely Ammi. If I have read this right some men are questioning female intent behind the views they hold regarding self-identification of men as women - which demonstrates to me a question mark over either the intent or the understanding of the men doing this.

It demonstrates to me on the whole that they don’t really understand where we are coming from as put simply they have never been there. They don’t understand how it feels as a woman when walking alone at night and the heart-stopping moment they realise they are being followed. Even when it is just a man walking behind them - the relief when he turns off and the fear when he doesn’t. I have been in both scenarios as have many, many women.

Men simply do not understand that vulnerability which explains why so many cannot see the potential risks faced by women if any bloody man can enter an enclosed women only area, where other women may not be at that time, and a woman is alone with a potential predator. It is potentially dangerous day or night when others are not around and when there is no safety in numbers.

Why does there have to be an ulterior motive other than the very real fear of attack. The fact this may seem ludicrous to some men shows how little they get it as they have no sense of that vulnerability. I also think men struggle more with putting themselves in the shoes of others and trying to imagine how it must feel - especially if it is something they have never experienced and are unlikely to do so. In my experience most men would think little of walking in an isolated place day or night whereas most women simply wouldn’t do so with good reason.

So for me most men genuinely don’t understand, whilst others have no interest in doing so because they don’t give a cr**. That is what women face daily and is why this is such a big issue for many women.

[Beso]

Do you think men never **** themselves when walking home alone brillo?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Do you think men never **** themselves when walking home alone brillo?

Maybe if they see a group of men ahead or something but it isn’t the same. They rarely have reason to fear just one man and most attacks and sexual assaults are carried out by lone men.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You think that people are saying one thing but meaning another?... That's a very paranoid attitude, I'm not for a second suggesting you aimed this at me but rest assured I'm NOT in the habit of saying the opposite of what I mean... What I say is 99.9% of the time EXACTLY what I mean.

For clarification the post you made in relation to 'vitriolic' comments when I asked you for an example you QUOTED me... That might have been where I got the impression you were suggesting your reference included me.

I'm not going to apologise for your misleading accusation.
There are not that many people so deeply involved in this discussion that share my opinion but as you've stated categorically it isn't me I'll let you jab your little pointy finger at someone else.

tbf this is levied at people a lot in different discussions on TiBB so it should come as no surprise really

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Maybe if they see a group of men ahead or something but it isn’t the same. They rarely have reason to fear just one man and most attacks and sexual assaults are carried out by lone men.

I got to disagree what with the increase of people carrying knives. I think most men are being dishonest if they claim to never be scared walking alone at night.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Isn't it the self identication that is the issue here? So here are two issues I have and maybe someone from the "no issues here guv" part of the forum can comment

If the self identification law is passed....any male can access a women's refuge

Any male can convert to Islam and access female only areas

Any female can identify as male and access men only clubs

Any female can convert to Islam and attend male only gatherings

I don't really have an issue with changing rooms as cubicles are more the norm than communal changing areas, I don't think trans is wrong and I don't think anyone else thinks that either ...transitioning...post op no issue, but wake up and decide today's the day ...no as the above are concerning to me, I know these are extreme examples but people do go to extremes at times

asking for a second time? anyone care to comment

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I got to disagree what with the increase of people carrying knives. I think most men are being dishonest if they claim to never be scared walking alone at night.

I don’t doubt that Parmy but that is a more recent development whereas women have experienced such vulnerability since the year dot.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I don’t doubt that Parmy but that is a more recent development whereas women have experienced such vulnerability since the year dot.

Ah, yes very true.

But so will some men have, we aint all big brave rufty tufty types

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Cherie

asking for a second time? anyone care to comment

They really hsven’t Thought this through in their rush to appease have they.

Or are they planning to make religious exceptions which to me undermines the whole concept of equality. I hope such a move would be contested if so.