[user104658]

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea".

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it .

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea".

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it .

So basically this is you saying if you don't like it you're transphobic?...

Is this your 'juicy morsel', you don't have an opinion either way so nobody else is allowed one? Nobody as far as I see are 'fixated' Interested or invested even but not fixated.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So basically this is you saying if you don't like it you're transphobic?...

No.

Is this your 'juicy morsel', you don't have an opinion either way so nobody else is allowed one?

No.

Nobody as far as I see are 'fixated' Interested or invested even but not fixated.

Recently it seems like some people are a bit fixated, in my opinion, and a general idea that "trans is wrong" or that somehow the sanctity of womanhood(?) is being threatened by it is contributing to some over-the-top assessments of various issues.

[Cherie]

Isn't it the self identication that is the issue here? So here are two issues I have and maybe someone from the "no issues here guv" part of the forum can comment

If the self identification law is passed....any male can access a women's refuge

Any male can convert to Islam and access female only areas

Any female can identify as male and access men only clubs

Any female can convert to Islam and attend male only gatherings

I don't really have an issue with changing rooms as cubicles are more the norm than communal changing areas, I don't think trans is wrong and I don't think anyone else thinks that either ...transitioning...post op no issue, but wake up and decide today's the day ...no as the above are concerning to me, I know these are extreme examples but people do go to extremes at times

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Isn't it the self identication that is the issue here? So here are two issues I have and maybe someone from the "no issues here guv" part of the forum can comment

If the self identification law is passed....any male can access a women's refuge

Any male can convert to Islam and access female only areas

Any female can identify as male and access men only clubs

Any female can convert to Islam and attend male only gatherings

I don't really have an issue with changing rooms as cubicles are more the norm than communal changing areas, I don't think trans is wrong and I don't think anyone else thinks that either ...transitioning...post op no issue, but wake up and decide today's the day ...no as the above are concerning to me, I know these are extreme examples but people do go to extremes at times

asking for a second time? anyone care to comment

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Cherie

asking for a second time? anyone care to comment

They really hsven’t Thought this through in their rush to appease have they.

Or are they planning to make religious exceptions which to me undermines the whole concept of equality. I hope such a move would be contested if so.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

asking for a second time? anyone care to comment

Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
Isn't it the self identication that is the issue here? So here are two issues I have and maybe someone from the "no issues here guv" part of the forum can comment


I'm your man on this Cherie, because - to be quite honest - I had no idea what all this 'palaver' was about until reading through as the thread progressed, and now I think it is neo-Liberal PC gone UTTERLY and DANGEROUSLY 'La La'.


If the self identification law is passed....any male can access a women's refuge

Any male can convert to Islam and access female only areas

Any female can identify as male and access men only clubs

Any female can convert to Islam and attend male only gatherings

I don't really have an issue with changing rooms as cubicles are more the norm than communal changing areas, I don't think trans is wrong and I don't think anyone else thinks that either ...transitioning...post op no issue, but wake up and decide today's the day ...no as the above are concerning to me, I know these are extreme examples but people do go to extremes at times

True, but the real concern is; that it gives a 'Free Pass' to ANY pervert to indulge his voyeuristic inclinations or to any 'Flasher' who gets off on exhibiting himself to women.

Totally, totally BONKERS.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

They really hsven’t Thought this through in their rush to appease have they.

Or are they planning to make religious exceptions which to me undermines the whole concept of equality. I hope such a move would be contested if so.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
Isn't it the self identication that is the issue here? So here are two issues I have and maybe someone from the "no issues here guv" part of the forum can comment


I'm your man on this Cherie, because - to be quite honest - I had no idea what all this 'palaver' was about until reading through as the thread progressed, and now I think it is neo-Liberal PC gone UTTERLY and DANGEROUSLY 'La La'.


If the self identification law is passed....any male can access a women's refuge

Any male can convert to Islam and access female only areas

Any female can identify as male and access men only clubs

Any female can convert to Islam and attend male only gatherings

I don't really have an issue with changing rooms as cubicles are more the norm than communal changing areas, I don't think trans is wrong and I don't think anyone else thinks that either ...transitioning...post op no issue, but wake up and decide today's the day ...no as the above are concerning to me, I know these are extreme examples but people do go to extremes at times

True, but the real concern is; that it gives a 'Free Pass' to ANY pervert to indulge his voyeuristic inclinations or to any 'Flasher' who gets off on exhibiting himself to women.

Totally, totally BONKERS.

Thanks both, I'm still waiting for a comment from those who feel women are making a big fuss over nothing and are in reality transphobic although apparently we don't know this yet and need it pointed out to us by males

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No.

Well sorry that's how you're coming across.

No.

Well sorry that's how you're coming across.



Recently it seems like some people are a bit fixated, in my opinion, and a general idea that "trans is wrong" or that somehow the sanctity of womanhood(?) is being threatened by it is contributing to some over-the-top assessments of various issues.

Nobody has said or even suggested that.
So before you didn't have an opinion but now you have an opinion and that is that mine or 'some' opinions are 'over the top assessments'?

Remember your view that women my age couldn't have an opinion on gaming or games? What qualifies you to comment here...
Not saying you can't or anything, but what?

I'm holding you to the same standard, how can you who have zero experience being a woman, or trans claim that my or 'some' opinions are over the top?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Nobody has said or even suggested that.
So before you didn't have an opinion but now you have an opinion and that is that mine or 'some' opinions are 'over the top assessments'?

Remember your view that women my age couldn't have an opinion on gaming or games? What qualifies you to comment here...
Not saying you can't or anything, but what?

I'm holding you to the same standard, how can you who have zero experience being a woman, or trans claim that my or 'some' opinions are over the top?

Because I'm not criticising the opinions or saying that people don't have the right to have or state their opinions however they want. I'm questioning the way those opinions are being delivered because I'm wondering if people are being completely honest about the feelings that they have that are actually driving those opinions.

I don't really care if people have anti-trans ideologies or aversions. Honestly. What dies bother me, is people bull****ting and pretending that their opinions are driven by other things.

Also, once again Kizzy, I'm at a total loss as to how you've managed to read my posts and decide that it's you that I'm talking about. So self-important... It's a bit ridiculous.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because I'm not criticising the opinions or saying that people don't have the right to have or state their opinions however they want. I'm questioning the way those opinions are being delivered because I'm wondering if people are being completely honest about the feelings that they have that are actually driving those opinions.

I don't really care if people have anti-trans ideologies or aversions. Honestly. What dies bother me, is people bull****ting and pretending that their opinions are driven by other things.

Also, once again Kizzy, I'm at a total loss as to how you've managed to read my posts and decide that it's you that I'm talking about. So self-important... It's a bit ridiculous.

Aren't you being just as self important in deciding that other people are pretending their opinions? You don't know how other people think.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Aren't you being just as self important in deciding that other people are pretending their opinions? You don't know how other people think.

I'm sharing my opinion, anyone who wants to disagree is free to do so... that's entirely different from assuming that any and all posts that don't mention someone by name are "about you", as Kizzy has done at least 3 times with my posts recently. I am rarely, if ever, talking about Kizzy in these posts .

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because I'm not criticising the opinions or saying that people don't have the right to have or state their opinions however they want. I'm questioning the way those opinions are being delivered because I'm wondering if people are being completely honest about the feelings that they have that are actually driving those opinions.

I don't really care if people have anti-trans ideologies or aversions. Honestly. What dies bother me, is people bull****ting and pretending that their opinions are driven by other things.

Also, once again Kizzy, I'm at a total loss as to how you've managed to read my posts and decide that it's you that I'm talking about. So self-important... It's a bit ridiculous.

You think that people are saying one thing but meaning another?... That's a very paranoid attitude, I'm not for a second suggesting you aimed this at me but rest assured I'm NOT in the habit of saying the opposite of what I mean... What I say is 99.9% of the time EXACTLY what I mean.

For clarification the post you made in relation to 'vitriolic' comments when I asked you for an example you QUOTED me... That might have been where I got the impression you were suggesting your reference included me.

I'm not going to apologise for your misleading accusation.
There are not that many people so deeply involved in this discussion that share my opinion but as you've stated categorically it isn't me I'll let you jab your little pointy finger at someone else.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You think that people are saying one thing but meaning another?... That's a very paranoid attitude, I'm not for a second suggesting you aimed this at me but rest assured I'm NOT in the habit of saying the opposite of what I mean... What I say is 99.9% of the time EXACTLY what I mean.

For clarification the post you made in relation to 'vitriolic' comments when I asked you for an example you QUOTED me... That might have been where I got the impression you were suggesting your reference included me.

I'm not going to apologise for your misleading accusation.
There are not that many people so deeply involved in this discussion that share my opinion but as you've stated categorically it isn't me I'll let you jab your little pointy finger at someone else.

tbf this is levied at people a lot in different discussions on TiBB so it should come as no surprise really

[Ashley.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea".

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it .

I should have known that a post like this was going to crop up eventually.

Nobody's "fixated" for contributing to a discussion that they feel strongly about.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea".

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it .

I think it’s just a big story at the mo because of the self gender I.D thingy law.I don’t think this forum as a whole is particularly fixated.Apart from a couple of posters.
It’s a pretty big thing now.Specially in the Labour Party.It’s causing massive division in there atm and making mainstream politics shows.Two groups of ‘oppressed’ people(Trans and Feminists) duking it out all over the internet.
I’m not particularly passionate about this being a man but i agree with the feminists on this (one) issue.

If you wanna see fixated and blown out of proportion just click on one of Vicky’s Mumsnet feminism forum links.
I had a read on a few topics on there and they’re in hysterics over this stuff.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea".

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it .

..I’m not sure it’s so much ‘fixation’ TS...but more about the proposed legislation being very much a discussion thing atm...whatever the topic, we tend to often become ‘momentarily fixated’....with concerns about many things...?...

...I’m still trying to get my thoughts together with this, I have to say...so maybe I’m becoming a little fixated myself, you could say.....but yeah, there will seem to be ‘fixation’, in trying to understand because of the proposed legislation etc...

...this is a good article actually TS, which I’ve found helpful...I’m sure there are many articles about the topic but this is something I found last week through these discussions....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40713645


...I hope that links ok, I hate iPads...there should be a safe space to protect against ipad stuff...

...anyways..(..my belief and understanding atm..)... is the concerns are very specific...of protecting vulnerability against ‘predatory males’...because of the legislation leaving ‘open to abuse’...so when terms are used as has been discussed recently..of ‘guys in frocks’ for instance...which does feel ‘transphobic’, I understand completely...but what makes such terms not transphobic though...is that they’re not being applied to any transgender person..?...they’re being applied to exactly what they say on the tin..to those who specific individuals who would abuse because of the proposed legislation...?...predatory males in frocks is maybe how it should more be, for a better understanding and clarity..?...

....as I say, I’m still trying to get my thoughts and my own understandings completely with this...so a Gender Recognition Certificate, which would mean that someone has ‘lived for two years’ if (..for whatever reason..)...surgical procedures haven’t been opted for..?...atm that is, that two year period is required for gender transition to be recognised..?....which would seem similar to requiring a DBS certificate to be around vulnerables in certain jobs etc...so I do understand when jobs are involved and obviously that certificate will always be shown and seen...but with a Gender Recognition Certificate...how will that be known in someone using a public loo for instance, how is it known atm...?...how is it known if someone is transgender or a ‘predatory male’...is the certificate carried everywhere...like an ‘ID proof’ would be..?...


...it’s all quite complex and confusing.....for me anyway but it might just be me...TS it’s like the feminism discussion a little while ago...’a place of equality has to be reached first..’...which is what you rightly said....and a place of equality has not been reached for transgender people because transgender is only in the infancy of being understood in recent times...and the ‘clash’ it’s having atm ..(..with this proposed legislation..)...is with feminism which still hasn’t reached its equal state either...so there the ‘sticking points’ come again...feminism knows and understands inequality completely...which is surely why it would naturally understand and want to give..that equality to transgender people...but in doing that, it would also be ‘giving’ to those who would seek to abuse, the predatory male..?...the guys in frocks as it were..?...so there is obvious reasons why the resistance is such as it seems to be which is seeming ‘fixated’...?....
.

[Ammi]

...I guess what I’m saying is that the resistance to the resistance...would (..appear..)..to be coming from males...and why would that be...because that ‘equal place’ which feminism continues to strive for, never had to be reached for by males..?...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I guess what I’m saying is that the resistance to the resistance...would (..appear..)..to be coming from males...and why would that be...because that ‘equal place’ which feminism continues to strive for, never had to be reached for by males..?...

Agree completely Ammi. If I have read this right some men are questioning female intent behind the views they hold regarding self-identification of men as women - which demonstrates to me a question mark over either the intent or the understanding of the men doing this.

It demonstrates to me on the whole that they don’t really understand where we are coming from as put simply they have never been there. They don’t understand how it feels as a woman when walking alone at night and the heart-stopping moment they realise they are being followed. Even when it is just a man walking behind them - the relief when he turns off and the fear when he doesn’t. I have been in both scenarios as have many, many women.

Men simply do not understand that vulnerability which explains why so many cannot see the potential risks faced by women if any bloody man can enter an enclosed women only area, where other women may not be at that time, and a woman is alone with a potential predator. It is potentially dangerous day or night when others are not around and when there is no safety in numbers.

Why does there have to be an ulterior motive other than the very real fear of attack. The fact this may seem ludicrous to some men shows how little they get it as they have no sense of that vulnerability. I also think men struggle more with putting themselves in the shoes of others and trying to imagine how it must feel - especially if it is something they have never experienced and are unlikely to do so. In my experience most men would think little of walking in an isolated place day or night whereas most women simply wouldn’t do so with good reason.

So for me most men genuinely don’t understand, whilst others have no interest in doing so because they don’t give a cr**. That is what women face daily and is why this is such a big issue for many women.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I guess what I’m saying is that the resistance to the resistance...would (..appear..)..to be coming from males...and why would that be...because that ‘equal place’ which feminism continues to strive for, never had to be reached for by males..?...

I've said this before too though less gently and been accused of transphobia and sexism. But it's basically men telling women what think and feel.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I've said this before too though less gently and been accused of transphobia and sexism. But it's basically men telling women what think and feel.

It is indeed - in part because they don’t and can’t understand, but some fail to understand that apparently - and in part because others don’t want to understand - and although will protest they support female equality - actions suggest that actually maybe they don’t. Maybe there is something in their sub-conscious that is still resisting as giving up that top-dog position has its drawbacks.