[Jack_]

The thing for me is, and the reason why I now make a conscious decision to not partake in these debates - is because they're conducted in a really hostile and exclusionary environment. I personally think it's less about your posts Vicky, and more those who agree with you. We went through a stage years ago where people who dared to have some left-field opinions were being belittled and patronised, and I stopped enjoying and contributing to these kind of threads. Then things got better for a time, and we were able to have a more civilised and productive discourse. But now if anything it's WORSE than it was years ago.

Look, I totally, TOTALLY understand why some women feel the way they do about these issues. And I also totally acknowledge and recognise my privilege as a man (and have explicitly done so before when I've decided to partake, or in similar threads - like the feminism one). This is a really emotive, contemporary issue for people on both sides of the argument - it strikes at the core of people's very being and their legitimacy - and that's why I wasn't surprised when the discussion a few days ago ended up heading in a very sour and reactionary direction.

The problem is though, is that if all people are interested in is either a) opinions that they agree with, and/or b) opinions from females...this isn't a debate at all. And if it's not a debate, what is the point of these discussions existing? Because all they read like these days is a bunch of people clapping and back-patting each other, and trying to exclude anyone else they think isn't fit to comment. It's like...you may as well just set up a private group so you can all agree with each other to your heart's content.

This is my favourite topic in the world, I spent a year of my life writing and researching about it. I LOVE talking about this, and have done so with female friends. But that's partly why I don't feel comfortable contributing anymore, because I too have a (completely different, granted) personal stake in it. And when you're too emotionally involved, it is very easy to feel personally slighted by the hostile environment these discussions are now conducted in. I just wish we could have these debates in a more fleshed out, academic, civilised manner...with less of the sniping, the baiting, the sarcasm, the exclusion, the inflammatory language, and the like.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

yep, in fact pretty much all the women in here seem to share the exact same view which on any subject is almost unheard of, that in itself should make it more obvious that our concerns are coming from a genuine place

There's a time and a place for celebrating this sort of solidarity though... And it isn't a debates forum.

Originally Posted by Jack_

The problem is though, is that if all people are interested in is either a) opinions that they agree with, and/or b) opinions from females...this isn't a debate at all. And if it's not a debate, what is the point of these discussions existing? Because all they read like these days is a bunch of people clapping and back-patting each other, and trying to exclude anyone else they think isn't fit to comment. It's like...you may as well just set up a private group so you can all agree with each other to your heart's content. .

.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's a time and a place for celebrating this sort of solidarity though... And it isn't a debates forum.





.

My post was in relation to your comment implying that we're all a bunch of transphobes pretending we're worried about womens rights though.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

The problem is though, is that if all people are interested in is either a) opinions that they agree with, and/or b) opinions from females...this isn't a debate at all. And if it's not a debate, what is the point of these discussions existing? Because all they read like these days is a bunch of people clapping and back-patting each other, and trying to exclude anyone else they think isn't fit to comment. It's like...you may as well just set up a private group so you can all agree with each other to your heart's content.

This is the opposite of what I want. Serious debates would cease to exist at all (which may or may not be a good thing..hmm) if only people who agreed with the OP were allowed to post in that topic

I don't think only female opinions matter either. Its useful to get opinions from everyone, regardless of their sex.

What I disagree with completely, is people trying to shut down the conversation by crying bigot at anyone with the 'wrong' (in their opinion) view. Or, as it seems is happening in this thread, trying to police other peoples language. Of course slurs and such should not be tolerated, but to try and make out that saying a male person is male is so horrendously offensive, well, thats another way of just trying the 'bigot' yell isn't it.

I don't agree when other posters have said that only female opinions matter. Of course men should be able to post too. But what I totally disagree with is when (and this is usually the way it goes down on here) men come in, and try to dismiss womens valid concerns. Or say that women are transphobic. As has happened on many of these threads, and it always does seem to be a male poster doing it, maybe thats just an unfortunate coincidence. I think men should take a bit more time to actually think about WHY women are so concerned about this, why women are so scared of random men. And then try to work out if their concerns really are OTT or if for some reason or other they are trying to minimize the very real threat that most women face in every day of their lives.

I actually think in this debate, that male opinions will be what changes the direction of it all. Once more men start to stand up and say 'no', it will all end. Which is part of the reason behind the recent manfriday campaign stuff...where women are 'self identifying' as men and entering male only swimming sessions and such, in reaction to men doing this to women. Once men are inconvenienced, it will all change I reckon. Just most men are not interested as it will never really affect them. Even with women taking over THEIR spaces in the way that men are colonizing womens spaces (and especially lesbian spaces) there is not the safety element, men will not be unsafe by women being there, in the way women would be with a random man.

In all honesty, if selfID keeps steamrollering its way into businesses and law, I will start using the male areas I think. Because the kind of man who would force his way into female areas with no thought at all for how that makes the women feel, is exactly the kind of man I do not want near me in states of undress. I reckon the male areas would be safer for me, as most of the pervs and voyeurs will be in the womens. And I sure as hell feel safer around even 100 normal men than I would feel in an enclosed space with one predator. Attacks in the male areas would be uncommon also as...most men are not predators and a predator would definitely think twice about attacking in an area thats mainly populated by blokes. Most men are against sexual assault/rape/voyeurism etc.

This of course does not solve the issue of refuges and prisons though, which I do feel are the most important in this debate. Especially given we currently have male rapists in female prisons, and that 50% of those identifying as trans are actually there for sex offenses (way above the average among men). But thats not surprising at all given transvestites are now classed as trans. And as I said before, transvestism is one of the most common paraphilia among s ex offenders. So it stands to reason that if transvestites are classed as trans, there will be a hell of a lot of 'trans' sex offenders.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This is the opposite of what I want. Serious debates would cease to exist at all (which may or may not be a good thing..hmm) if only people who agreed with the OP were allowed to post in that topic

I don't think only female opinions matter either. Its useful to get opinions from everyone, regardless of their sex.

What I disagree with completely, is people trying to shut down the conversation by crying bigot at anyone with the 'wrong' (in their opinion) view. Or, as it seems is happening in this thread, trying to police other peoples language. Of course slurs and such should not be tolerated, but to try and make out that saying a male person is male is so horrendously offensive, well, thats another way of just trying the 'bigot' yell isn't it.

I don't agree when other posters have said that only female opinions matter. Of course men should be able to post too. But what I totally disagree with is when (and this is usually the way it goes down on here) men come in, and try to dismiss womens valid concerns. Or say that women are transphobic. As has happened on many of these threads, and it always does seem to be a male poster doing it, maybe thats just an unfortunate coincidence. I think men should take a bit more time to actually think about WHY women are so concerned about this, why women are so scared of random men. And then try to work out if their concerns really are OTT or if for some reason or other they are trying to minimize the very real threat that most women face in every day of their lives.

I actually think in this debate, that male opinions will be what changes the direction of it all. Once more men start to stand up and say 'no', it will all end. Which is part of the reason behind the recent manfriday campaign stuff...where women are 'self identifying' as men and entering male only swimming sessions and such, in reaction to men doing this to women. Once men are inconvenienced, it will all change I reckon. Just most men are not interested as it will never really affect them. Even with women taking over THEIR spaces in the way that men are colonizing womens spaces (and especially lesbian spaces) there is not the safety element, men will not be unsafe by women being there, in the way women would be with a random man.

In all honesty, if selfID keeps steamrollering its way into businesses and law, I will start using the male areas I think. Because the kind of man who would force his way into female areas with no thought at all for how that makes the women feel, is exactly the kind of man I do not want near me in states of undress. I reckon the male areas would be safer for me, as most of the pervs and voyeurs will be in the womens. And I sure as hell feel safer around even 100 normal men than I would feel in an enclosed space with one predator. Attacks in the male areas would be uncommon also as...most men are not predators and a predator would definitely think twice about attacking in an area thats mainly populated by blokes. Most men are against sexual assault/rape/voyeurism etc.

This of course does not solve the issue of refuges and prisons though, which I do feel are the most important in this debate. Especially given we currently have male rapists in female prisons, and that 50% of those identifying as trans are actually there for sex offenses (way above the average among men). But thats not surprising at all given transvestites are now classed as trans. And as I said before, transvestism is one of the most common paraphilia among s ex offenders. So it stands to reason that if transvestites are classed as trans, there will be a hell of a lot of 'trans' sex offenders.

Of course it would! It just comes across that way in most of these threads. It's less engaging with WHAT people's disagreements are, and more questioning WHO are they and what position are they in to dare disagree. That is not conducive to a productive debate, it's overly hostile, off-putting and really exclusionary. Like I said, I completely understand that these are emotive discussions on all-sides and so in many respects it's understandable that they go the way they do. But I think it'd be a lot more helpful if we could all reign it in a little, and try to converse with each other respectfully? Less of the sniping, the sarcasm, the entitlement, etc. And this isn't even just a male thing either, there are quite clearly females on here who for whatever reason don't feel comfortable participating in these debates either - as we discovered last week. This isn't good for any of us - there's an opportunity here for us all to share our experiences and perspectives and have a fully fleshed out, academic discussion and try to understand each other's points of view - but that just isn't possible at the moment.

I totally get what you're saying re. the transphobia and bigotry accusations. Look, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that some of the language and arguments that have been made on here over the last year or so haven't made me uncomfortable because they have. But that's yours and other people's right to hold opinions that might make some feel uneasy, and in the context of a debate I can't legitimately expect people to not be able to express their genuine feelings . The problem I ACTUALLY have is with the language and tone of people's post that surround those opinions. So, it's less about the opinions and more the way they are put across. Like, 'you're a MAN who are YOU to tell ME how to feel' and 'WHAT would YOU know'. I guarantee that if I posted some of my genuine opinions on these topics, the people who dislike me would immediately circle around with some patronising, dismissive, baiting retorts. When you've invested a huge amount of time and passion in a topic, can you understand how annoying that would be? This is totally different to other debates, where I couldn't care less what people think - when you have a personal stake in it and you're effectively being asked 'well what would you know???' it's pretty damn inflammatory, and is likely to end up in me retaliating with more insults - which is not helpful to anyone. Hence why I refrain from partaking.

But I guess this is a matter for all sides, less of the transphobic/bigot accusations, and less of the exclusionary and patronising posts. More civilised, productive, fleshed out discussions...I don't know how we go about ensuring this happens though. Now...onto the rest...I hope I don't regret engaging with this.

You may have a point about men needing to be inconvenienced first before it becomes a national conversation...that's usually the way, after all. But from my perspective at least...I just...don't and won't care (about females coming into male areas, that is)? When I saw these campaigns you've referenced, my initial thought was 'great! they're more than welcome to come in, hopefully this goes the opposite way and proves we DON'T need segregation'. I think I've expressed this before, but I personally favour complete gender/sex desegregation in many areas of social life. I don't see any need for it (cue people stopping reading here and making 'you're a man' comments...), I actually think the obsession we have as a modern society with segregating and categorising people more and more (this applies to sexuality just as much) causes more problems than it solves. I want to break down gender/sex binary, not enrich it. I realise this is potentially going to be quite inflammatory...so let me explain what I'd actually prefer.

I favour unisex toilets/changing rooms because I don't feel comfortable changing in front of ANYONE, regardless of their sex. Communal changing areas are gross and need banning. Replace them all with individual cubicles that anyone can use. On the issue of toilets - I favour much of the same. At my university library, we had some new gender neutral toilets built (people misunderstand this a lot and think they're just for trans people or 'non binary weird people lul') and they were AMAZING. Basically, you went through a door, and behind it there were three separately locked individual toilets that each had a sink and drier in. They were the cleanest in the whole building. You had your own privacy, your own space and it was perfect. More of these need to build nationally.

As for yours and other's concerns, while I totally understand them (as I said before), I do echo what TS said in that a lot of it (at face value at least) seems to be futile. Put it this way, if a predator wants to enter a female-only space, he is going to do so regardless of whatever is on the sign above the door. No law is going to increase or decrease the likelihood of this happening, IMO. What's more is...you're far more likely to be attacked in a domestic setting by someone you know than a stranger in a public place. That's not to minimise the issue or to say that it doesn't happen, I know it does - I've seen the articles, but I don't think any law is going to prevent this from happening, or even make it less likely. Also - by desegregating these areas, you are statistically likely to have MORE people in them, which actually DOES decrease the chances of anything happening. Here's an interesting question for you as a woman - if you were in a public toilet alone, late at night and with no else around, and a man walked in, would you feel more or less scared than if you were in a public toilet, late at night with ten other men and two other women (presuming it were a unisex toilet)? While I'm not a woman and cannot understand your concerns from your perspective, certainly from mine I would much rather be in any public place with more people - men or women. I don't feel comfortable walking down the street with only one or two people about. There's safety in numbers. [I've just realised I've asked this when you already addressed it in that paragraph, but I've typed it now lol]

The prisons/refuges is a more difficult issue I'll concede, and so I won't address it here because this post will be far too long otherwise.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

But I guess this is a matter for all sides, less of the transphobic/bigot accusations, and less of the exclusionary and patronising posts. More civilised, productive, fleshed out discussions...I don't know how we go about ensuring this happens though. Now...onto the rest...I hope I don't regret engaging with this.

I would bloody love this tbh.

You may have a point about men needing to be inconvenienced first before it becomes a national conversation...that's usually the way, after all. But from my perspective at least...I just...don't and won't care (about females coming into male areas, that is)? When I saw these campaigns you've referenced, my initial thought was 'great! they're more than welcome to come in, hopefully this goes the opposite way and proves we DON'T need segregation'. I think I've expressed this before, but I personally favour complete gender/sex desegregation in many areas of social life. I don't see any need for it (cue people stopping reading here and making 'you're a man' comments...), I actually think the obsession we have as a modern society with segregating and categorising people more and more (this applies to sexuality just as much) causes more problems than it solves. I want to break down gender/sex binary, not enrich it. I realise this is potentially going to be quite inflammatory...so let me explain what I'd actually prefer.

Yeah I remember you are against sex segregation to start with

I would have no issue with single floor to ceiling contained loos. Just..thats not whats happening. Whats happening is that the usual flimsy (sometimes just shower curtainy type things) areas being deemed unisex. Which I am very very against, as is fairly obvious

If it was done properly, great. But its not.

I favour unisex toilets/changing rooms because I don't feel comfortable changing in front of ANYONE, regardless of their sex. Communal changing areas are gross and need banning. Replace them all with individual cubicles that anyone can use. On the issue of toilets - I favour much of the same. At my university library, we had some new gender neutral toilets built (people misunderstand this a lot and think they're just for trans people or 'non binary weird people lul') and they were AMAZING. Basically, you went through a door, and behind it there were three separately locked individual toilets that each had a sink and drier in. They were the cleanest in the whole building. You had your own privacy, your own space and it was perfect. More of these need to build nationally.

And it sounds like your Uni library have it right. Thats exactly how it should be done, if we are moving to unisex. But with setups the way they are now, I reckon the huge majority of people would want to keep things sex segregated.

I also hate communal changing tbh. But many are fine with it, and they always tend to have one cubicle there for people like me who don't like changing in front of anyone. I won't queue for it though, like if I am going to have to wait 30 mins I will just bite the bullet and use the communal bit. I would/could not do this with a random bloke there. regardless of what he was wearing.

As for yours and other's concerns, while I totally understand them (as I said before), I do echo what TS said in that a lot of it (at face value at least) seems to be futile. Put it this way, if a predator wants to enter a female-only space, he is going to do so regardless of whatever is on the sign above the door. No law is going to increase or decrease the likelihood of this happening, IMO. What's more is...you're far more likely to be attacked in a domestic setting by someone you know than a stranger in a public place. That's not to minimise the issue or to say that it doesn't happen, I know it does - I've seen the articles, but I don't think any law is going to prevent this from happening, or even make it less likely. Also - by desegregating these areas, you are statistically likely to have MORE people in them, which actually DOES decrease the chances of anything happening. Here's an interesting question for you as a woman - if you were in a public toilet alone, late at night and with no else around, and a man walked in, would you feel more or less scared than if you were in a public toilet, late at night with ten other men and two other women (presuming it were a unisex toilet)? While I'm not a woman and cannot understand your concerns from your perspective, certainly from mine I would much rather be in any public place with more people - men or women. I don't feel comfortable walking down the street with only one or two people about. There's safety in numbers. [I've just realised I've asked this when you already addressed it in that paragraph, but I've typed it now lol]

Haha yeah, already done

I know you are more likely to be attacked by someone you know. I think the stat is that only 1/10 attacks are by strangers. Still a significant enough number for women to feel/be told that they have to modify their behavior to avoid those men though.

The prisons/refuges is a more difficult issue I'll concede, and so I won't address it here because this post will be far too long otherwise.

Not like you to make a long post Jack. Heh.

I don't think there is a way to address it at all besides, those places remain based on actual sex.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I would bloody love this tbh.


Yeah I remember you are against sex segregation to start with

I would have no issue with single floor to ceiling contained loos. Just..thats not whats happening. Whats happening is that the usual flimsy (sometimes just shower curtainy type things) areas being deemed unisex. Which I am very very against, as is fairly obvious

If it was done properly, great. But its not.



And it sounds like your Uni library have it right. Thats exactly how it should be done, if we are moving to unisex. But with setups the way they are now, I reckon the huge majority of people would want to keep things sex segregated.

I also hate communal changing tbh. But many are fine with it, and they always tend to have one cubicle there for people like me who don't like changing in front of anyone. I won't queue for it though, like if I am going to have to wait 30 mins I will just bite the bullet and use the communal bit. I would/could not do this with a random bloke there. regardless of what he was wearing.



Haha yeah, already done

I know you are more likely to be attacked by someone you know. I think the stat is that only 1/10 attacks are by strangers. Still a significant enough number for women to feel/be told that they have to modify their behavior to avoid those men though.



Not like you to make a long post Jack. Heh.

I don't think there is a way to address it at all besides, those places remain based on actual sex.

On the thing I posted earlier about sexual attacks being 5 times more likely on women, it said that it's about half by a partner or someone they know.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Of course it would! It just comes across that way in most of these threads. It's less engaging with WHAT people's disagreements are, and more questioning WHO are they and what position are they in to dare disagree. That is not conducive to a productive debate, it's overly hostile, off-putting and really exclusionary. Like I said, I completely understand that these are emotive discussions on all-sides and so in many respects it's understandable that they go the way they do. But I think it'd be a lot more helpful if we could all reign it in a little, and try to converse with each other respectfully? Less of the sniping, the sarcasm, the entitlement, etc. And this isn't even just a male thing either, there are quite clearly females on here who for whatever reason don't feel comfortable participating in these debates either - as we discovered last week. This isn't good for any of us - there's an opportunity here for us all to share our experiences and perspectives and have a fully fleshed out, academic discussion and try to understand each other's points of view - but that just isn't possible at the moment.

I totally get what you're saying re. the transphobia and bigotry accusations. Look, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that some of the language and arguments that have been made on here over the last year or so haven't made me uncomfortable because they have. But that's yours and other people's right to hold opinions that might make some feel uneasy, and in the context of a debate I can't legitimately expect people to not be able to express their genuine feelings . The problem I ACTUALLY have is with the language and tone of people's post that surround those opinions. So, it's less about the opinions and more the way they are put across. Like, 'you're a MAN who are YOU to tell ME how to feel' and 'WHAT would YOU know'. I guarantee that if I posted some of my genuine opinions on these topics, the people who dislike me would immediately circle around with some patronising, dismissive, baiting retorts. When you've invested a huge amount of time and passion in a topic, can you understand how annoying that would be? This is totally different to other debates, where I couldn't care less what people think - when you have a personal stake in it and you're effectively being asked 'well what would you know???' it's pretty damn inflammatory, and is likely to end up in me retaliating with more insults - which is not helpful to anyone. Hence why I refrain from partaking.

But I guess this is a matter for all sides, less of the transphobic/bigot accusations, and less of the exclusionary and patronising posts. More civilised, productive, fleshed out discussions...I don't know how we go about ensuring this happens though. Now...onto the rest...I hope I don't regret engaging with this.

You may have a point about men needing to be inconvenienced first before it becomes a national conversation...that's usually the way, after all. But from my perspective at least...I just...don't and won't care (about females coming into male areas, that is)? When I saw these campaigns you've referenced, my initial thought was 'great! they're more than welcome to come in, hopefully this goes the opposite way and proves we DON'T need segregation'. I think I've expressed this before, but I personally favour complete gender/sex desegregation in many areas of social life. I don't see any need for it (cue people stopping reading here and making 'you're a man' comments...), I actually think the obsession we have as a modern society with segregating and categorising people more and more (this applies to sexuality just as much) causes more problems than it solves. I want to break down gender/sex binary, not enrich it. I realise this is potentially going to be quite inflammatory...so let me explain what I'd actually prefer.

I favour unisex toilets/changing rooms because I don't feel comfortable changing in front of ANYONE, regardless of their sex. Communal changing areas are gross and need banning. Replace them all with individual cubicles that anyone can use. On the issue of toilets - I favour much of the same. At my university library, we had some new gender neutral toilets built (people misunderstand this a lot and think they're just for trans people or 'non binary weird people lul') and they were AMAZING. Basically, you went through a door, and behind it there were three separately locked individual toilets that each had a sink and drier in. They were the cleanest in the whole building. You had your own privacy, your own space and it was perfect. More of these need to build nationally.

As for yours and other's concerns, while I totally understand them (as I said before), I do echo what TS said in that a lot of it (at face value at least) seems to be futile. Put it this way, if a predator wants to enter a female-only space, he is going to do so regardless of whatever is on the sign above the door. No law is going to increase or decrease the likelihood of this happening, IMO. What's more is...you're far more likely to be attacked in a domestic setting by someone you know than a stranger in a public place. That's not to minimise the issue or to say that it doesn't happen, I know it does - I've seen the articles, but I don't think any law is going to prevent this from happening, or even make it less likely. Also - by desegregating these areas, you are statistically likely to have MORE people in them, which actually DOES decrease the chances of anything happening. Here's an interesting question for you as a woman - if you were in a public toilet alone, late at night and with no else around, and a man walked in, would you feel more or less scared than if you were in a public toilet, late at night with ten other men and two other women (presuming it were a unisex toilet)? While I'm not a woman and cannot understand your concerns from your perspective, certainly from mine I would much rather be in any public place with more people - men or women. I don't feel comfortable walking down the street with only one or two people about. There's safety in numbers. [I've just realised I've asked this when you already addressed it in that paragraph, but I've typed it now lol]

The prisons/refuges is a more difficult issue I'll concede, and so I won't address it here because this post will be far too long otherwise.

Jack I appreciate the time it took to form that post, I do have one issue with it however, the intimation that again on here the male view has been sidelined or criticised it hasn't...
What has been criticised is the presumption that that is what is happening based on genuine concern, together with an accusatory tone towards what has been said on the topic as disingenuous.

That to me is both offensive and derogatory, it is seriously lacking in respect or the spirit of debate.
In relation to the thread topic and similar discussions on the forum there is an 'assumed' entitlement, as far as I see there has been no 'you can't comment' personally I have invested my whole adulthood to this topic so imagine how galling it is for me to be told my thinking is flawed...(not that you have)

The reason debate isn't possible for me is based on these presumptions, as said most have been perfectly honest in their reaction to these proposals.

You yourself however have said your genuine opinions have not been expressed for fear of challenges from those who don't like you.... How conducive is that to civilised reasoned debate, if you are too afraid to speak your mind on any given topic? and yet suggest that the rest of the forum should.
I highlighted an area where I feel stats and scenarios are unhelpful, to some these would not be useful and a women only space preferred for whatever reason, but lets go with abuse. The fear of attack from a stranger may be irrational but it doesn't make that fear any less real.

I agree that unisex toilets/changing areas are the answer, a perfect solution that's not to say a don't think toilets as is should ever be phased out.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yeah I remember you are against sex segregation to start with

I would have no issue with single floor to ceiling contained loos. Just..thats not whats happening. Whats happening is that the usual flimsy (sometimes just shower curtainy type things) areas being deemed unisex. Which I am very very against, as is fairly obvious

If it was done properly, great. But its not.

And it sounds like your Uni library have it right. Thats exactly how it should be done, if we are moving to unisex. But with setups the way they are now, I reckon the huge majority of people would want to keep things sex segregated.

You're right, there's a hell of a long way to go in that respect - but thus would it not make more sense for this to be the campaign (on this issue at least)? A compromise of sorts if you will. If females opposed to the proposed changes in the law would be satisfied with this, and if trans people are too (gender neutral toilets are often created to alleviate their awkwardness after all - even if they're not exclusively for them) - would it not make way more sense to collaborate and push for this nationwide? I totally agree that many people would be against it and not see the point, but that's why the argument has to be made!

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I know you are more likely to be attacked by someone you know. I think the stat is that only 1/10 attacks are by strangers. Still a significant enough number for women to feel/be told that they have to modify their behavior to avoid those men though.

Of course! And let me be absolutely clear that I in no way support any kind of 'she was asking for it/wearing too little' arguments.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Not like you to make a long post Jack. Heh.

I don't think there is a way to address it at all besides, those places remain based on actual sex.

I thought I'd try not to make it *too* long

There's a couple of things I want to address though re. the bold so I can understand your argument more.

1) How would this be policed? Short of having genital inspections (and that is only one marker of sex after all, it's just the most visible and tangible) before being allowed entry, how do you go about enforcing this?

2) Isn't the logical conclusion of this though, that any transexual (I'll use this term because I know it's the one you prefer) who wishes to live their life as the gender they feel comfortable as MUST have irreversible and intrusive corrective surgery in order to do so? There are many transexuals who have no desire to modify their body and start messing around with their biological and physiological makeup, and I'm sure you've (quite righty, IMO) said before that as a society we shouldn't be almost coercing and forcing people down this path. It is my opinion that if a trans person wishes to have sex reassignment surgery to alleviate their discomfort then all power to them and they should of course be entitled to. But equally, if they don't wish to spend years transforming their own body in what can be a very psychologically damaging process, that's fine too. Unfortunately, our framing of gender in terms of genitalia inevitably makes surgery a prerequisite for any transexual person to be taken seriously, and that is really problematic for me.

So to bring that back to my initial question slightly, if that is the requirement to have access to sex-segregated areas, then aren't trans people who have for years been living and identifying as women - but have no desire to have surgery - in a pretty awkward position? Again, I'll qualify this by saying I completely understand the concerns of many females here...I'm just trying to highlight the flip side of this. These trans people would then be in the position of having to enter the toilet/changing room that does not correlate with their gender presentation (which is how people perceive one another), and face abuse, confusion and even assault there too? If it's the case that anyone who passes can carry on as normal because no one would know, then this comes full circle and the question really would be - what is the opposition to the proposed changes in the law? If transwomen are currently entering female-only spaces without having had surgery, and would still be allowed to so long as they pass after the fact, what changes?

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Jack I appreciate the time it took to form that post, I do have one issue with it however, the intimation that again on here the male view has been sidelined or criticised it hasn't...
What has been criticised is the presumption that that is what is happening based on genuine concern, together with an accusatory tone towards what has been said on the topic as disingenuous.

That to me is both offensive and derogatory, it is seriously lacking in respect or the spirit of debate.

I'm sorry Kizzy but I respectfully disagree. I can see that you're criticising the 'people aren't being honest' argument and that's fine...but that's Toy Soldier's ballgame and not mine. From my experience and/or (more often) observation, there have been on occasions (not necessarily in this thread or in recent ones since people have started airing their concerns) in the last year or so, many instances of male voices having their opinions denigrated and validity called into question based on their sex. Often in a snide, indirect and baiting manner too. It's not helpful and is not conducive to a productive debate, or a debate at all for that matter.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

In relation to the thread topic and similar discussions on the forum there is an 'assumed' entitlement, as far as I see there has been no 'you can't comment' personally I have invested my whole adulthood to this topic so imagine how galling it is for me to be told my thinking is flawed...(not that you have)

No, I get that totally. Hence why on several occasions I've qualified my point by saying that my personal stake in this topic is obviously COMPLETELY different to that of a female's lived experience. But it's still a personal stake, just from a different angle - that's all my point was.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You yourself however have said your genuine opinions have not been expressed for fear of challenges from those who don't like you.... How conducive is that to civilised reasoned debate, if you are too afraid to speak your mind on any given topic? and yet suggest that the rest of the forum should.
I highlighted an area where I feel stats and scenarios are unhelpful, to some these would not be useful and a women only space preferred for whatever reason, but lets go with abuse. The fear of attack from a stranger may be irrational but it doesn't make that fear any less real.

I'm not sure I understand this bit. I completely agree that feeling afraid to be honest about my genuine opinions is not conducive to civilised and reasoned debate! But I don't think I've suggested that the rest of the forum should? I think you're getting mine and TS' line of arguments mixed up here, I didn't make the point that people aren't being honest...he did. I was coming at it from a different angle.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I agree that unisex toilets/changing areas are the answer, a perfect solution that's not to say a don't think toilets as is should ever be phased out.

I'm glad we agree on this however!

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Jack_

2) Isn't the logical conclusion of this though, that any transexual (I'll use this term because I know it's the one you prefer) who wishes to live their life as the gender they feel comfortable as MUST have irreversible and intrusive corrective surgery in order to do so? There are many transexuals who have no desire to modify their body and start messing around with their biological and physiological makeup, and I'm sure you've (quite righty, IMO) said before that as a society we shouldn't be almost coercing and forcing people down this path. It is my opinion that if a trans person wishes to have sex reassignment surgery to alleviate their discomfort then all power to them and they should of course be entitled to. But equally, if they don't wish to spend years transforming their own body in what can be a very psychologically damaging process, that's fine too. Unfortunately, our framing of gender in terms of genitalia inevitably makes surgery a prerequisite for any transexual person to be taken seriously, and that is really problematic for me.

I'm asking because my knowledge of the topic is rather superficial: isn't one major issue for trans people the fact that their body doesn't match their psychological gender? Wouldn't they all aim at rectifying that? I've always thought sex reassignment procedures were desired by them, not imposed by society.
And why you say it is psychologically damaging? I'd have thought it would be liberating.
[Disclaimer: I knew one f2m person and he couldn't wait for his surgeries and now lives as a happily married man. So it may colour my view of things a bit.]

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I'm sorry Kizzy but I respectfully disagree. I can see that you're criticising the 'people aren't being honest' argument and that's fine...but that's Toy Soldier's ballgame and not mine. From my experience and/or (more often) observation, there have been on occasions (not necessarily in this thread or in recent ones since people have started airing their concerns) in the last year or so, many instances of male voices having their opinions denigrated and validity called into question based on their sex. Often in a snide, indirect and baiting manner too. It's not helpful and is not conducive to a productive debate, or a debate at all for that matter.



No, I get that totally. Hence why on several occasions I've qualified my point by saying that my personal stake in this topic is obviously COMPLETELY different to that of a female's lived experience. But it's still a personal stake, just from a different angle - that's all my point was.



I'm not sure I understand this bit. I completely agree that feeling afraid to be honest about my genuine opinions is not conducive to civilised and reasoned debate! But I don't think I've suggested that the rest of the forum should? I think you're getting mine and TS' line of arguments mixed up here, I didn't make the point that people aren't being honest...he did. I was coming at it from a different angle.



I'm glad we agree on this however!

With respect I can't help but get your views tangled as you highlighted his views as relevant and they do seem to chime with your own on this, they aren't a million miles apart.
That's not to say I agree however, I can't think of one thread where a male opinion has been denigrated or deemed irrelevant. I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't work both ways even should you feel that, in all seriousness feminism isn't exactly the forte of some of the male regular members of this forum... That's not a snipe by the way that's an observation.

I'm not saying your angle is lesser ( I know you didn't say this, but I don't want my wording misconstrued) than mine as you say just different, my angle is different again from someone who has felt that fear, it's not specific to my gender to empathise with the abused. We have to appreciate that there has to be some rights afforded to them too. Which is why I felt the unisex option alongside the existing facilities had to be the most inclusive option.

You understood me well enough that's more or less what I was trying to say, aside from I meant the rest of the forum should remain civilised while speaking their minds. You remain civilised while not speaking your mind which is easy to do... some are being accused of speaking their mind whilst not being honest and still managing to come over as offensive. I appreciate that is not your view.