[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh yeah of course, you want your kids to be safe always but equally can you imagine something like this happening and getting annoyed with your child rather than the rapist? of course not because it would sound like you were giving some of the blame to them which would be very wrong

Well no, and I do think that's part of the problem especially on social media etc (and news website comments... Those are the absolute worst) where it really does come across as a "well, what do you expect?" in the sense that the attackers shouldn't even be blamed or were "encouraged" or similar. But then I do think it can go too far the other way to the point where people are enabled or almost encouraged to engage in risky behaviour because "it SHOULD be fine to do these things and not have to feel at risk". Which is true; it should be fine... But it isn't... It is risky. Its almost like the message is "do it anyway" as a sort of protest move? But the idea that we can push and protest and change things, or educate people, to the point where these situations are "safe" is madness. The reality is that the world is full of dangerous individuals who will take advantage of and harm others for their own gain and enjoyment, and we can and obviously should punish them if they are caught doing that, but there will always be more of them in waiting.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well no, and I do think that's part of the problem especially on social media etc (and news website comments... Those are the absolute worst) where it really does come across as a "well, what do you expect?" in the sense that the attackers shouldn't even be blamed or were "encouraged" or similar. But then I do think it can go too far the other way to the point where people are enabled or almost encouraged to engage in risky behaviour because "it SHOULD be fine to do these things and not have to feel at risk". Which is true; it should be fine... But it isn't... It is risky. Its almost like the message is "do it anyway" as a sort of protest move? But the idea that we can push and protest and change things, or educate people, to the point where these situations are "safe" is madness. The reality is that the world is full of dangerous individuals who will take advantage of and harm others for their own gain and enjoyment, and we can and obviously should punish them if they are caught doing that, but there will always be more of them in waiting.

I suppose, there's a time and a place for it and imo saying it (and it gets said sfm around rape cases) in conversations around rape cases makes it sound like victim blaming (and a lot of times its very purposefully victim blaming)

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

There's risk in everything, we don't say 'well, this person got murdered but he didn't think of the risks before he got killed so...'

Like Niamh said, she was young and starstruck. She wasn't just going off with random strangers, she was going off with well known people and she probably felt safer for it. The problem here isn't her lack of judgement but the fact that these people abused the trust she had in them, as misplaced as it might be.

Tbf I've kind of veered off into talking about this sort of situation in general rather than this specific case, it sounds like a fairly unusual situation, and I also think the issue of real consent in general in these situations becomes quite murky - people who are "starstruck" or if it's with an individual who holds some power, they might even verbally consent to something they don't actually want to do or are uncomfortable with, out of fear of what happens if they don't. Is that even real consent then? But how do you legislate for those issues?

Rape goes unreported and unpunished far too much because most victims don't want to be put on trial when they are already in a vulnerable position. Even mentioning the risks she took takes blame away from her attackers. The courts, in these cases, need to focus less on the victim and how they can blame her for what happened and more on establishing whether consent was given or if the victim was even in a position to give consent.

I do agree with that, there needs to be some sort of major overhaul of how sexual assault cases are put through the courts in general so that it's handled sensitively and considerately no matter what the outcome is. Victims privacy needs to be respected whether the accused is found guilty or otherwise, the potential damage to the mental health of a victim is absolutely massive, even if there is a conviction, and it's little wonder that people don't want to put themselves through it.

On the flipside - whether people want to believe it or not - there ARE false allegations made sometimes, and the lives of innocent people can be ruined off the back of them even if it all comes out. Mud sticks, so to speak.

If it was all handled with more of a sense of decency and privacy in the first place, many of those problems could be tackled.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The victims were 2 lads who got accused of rape falsely

Thank God we have decent law to stop their lives being ruined

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Spit roasts have been going for years especially footballers and they get treated like gods.
These are not men but animals.

But a woman has to keep her wits about her going home with and a man you just met and to go with more than one man you have only just met is asking for trouble.

Victim blaming, have you seen that vid about tea they show to kids?..... You should watch it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Victim blaming, have you seen that vid about tea they show to kids?..... You should watch it.

Thankfully for the 2 lads it seems the jury also had watched it hence why they were cleared

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The victims were 2 lads who got accused of rape falsely

Thank God we have decent law to stop their lives being ruined

And thankfully enough of the trial was covered so people have seen just what kind of "lads" they are.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

And thankfully enough of the trial was covered so people have seen just what kind of "lads" they are.

yep, just because a rope says VIP it does not guarantee you a gentleman or a lady

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yep, just because a rope says VIP it does not guarantee you a gentleman or a lady

Usually the opposite it seems, especially with sports stars, which is a shame really. Maybe inevitable though. Young people who have soared to fame and money (and with it power) very quickly and off of the back of a physical talent, not with brainpower. Leaves us with an awful lot of "lads" who believe themselves to be invincible and able to do whatever they want without consequences.

I guess cases like this, even with them not facing legal repercussions, at least send a message to other similarly minded individuals, that they are NOT invincible and can easily ruin their own careers at the very least with their actions. Which might stop as many girls ending up in, however you look at it, really dark situations like this one.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The victims were 2 lads who got accused of rape falsely

Thank God we have decent law to stop their lives being ruined

Work on coming up with better bait, this is weak.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Work on coming up with better bait, this is weak.

Yes and continually trying to shut down a debate by saying that again

is baiting


still as you are still a mod i doubt you care..

[Kizzy]

Is there any offence that won't be glossed over to save their careers?

[Tom4784]

Not a few pages back you were trying to shut me down by making out that I couldn't comment on the article without being in the courtroom. Keep track of what you post.

What you said was baiting, you know this is a sensitive topic, you know that we're talking about victim blaming yet you make a blatantly incendiary post making out that not guilty is the same as being falsely accused because you KNOW it'll get a reaction. It's what you do.

[thesheriff443]

I'm not blaming the victim in this case I'm saying she was reckless and so what If i was blaming her! I'm just as entitled to that opinion as anyone else's opinion.

As a parent I have raised my daughter to be aware of the dangers that are out there.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

I'm not blaming the victim in this case I'm saying she was reckless and so what If i was blaming her! I'm just as entitled to that opinion as anyone else's opinion.

As a parent I have raised my daughter to be aware of the dangers that are out there.

The victim blaming thing is a pretty common shut down tactic, its bog standard in "debates" like this. It usually means you are making good points tbh

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The victim blaming thing is a pretty common shut down tactic, its bog standard in "debates" like this. It usually means you are making good points tbh

Or... as seen here it was just actually victim blaming.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

I'm not blaming the victim in this case I'm saying she was reckless and so what If i was blaming her! I'm just as entitled to that opinion as anyone else's opinion.

As a parent I have raised my daughter to be aware of the dangers that are out there.

So what if you were?
Well the responsibility of the rape is always on the rapist. It is their crime and theirs alone no matter the actions of the victim.

Can you think the victim careless or irresponsible in putting themselves in harms way or leaving themselves vulnerable? Of course. Can they actually be blamed for the rape? No. Not at all.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Can you think the victim careless or irresponsible in putting themselves in harms way or leaving themselves vulnerable? Of course. Can they actually be blamed for the rape? No. Not at all.

Surely the issue there though, is that a lot of people would brand the former as the latter? i.e pointing out that someone has engaged in risky behaviour is seen as "victim blaming" when it isn't actually assigning blame in any way.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Surely the issue there though, is that a lot of people would brand the former as the latter? i.e pointing out that someone has engaged in risky behaviour is seen as "victim blaming" when it isn't actually assigning blame in any way.

Oh in that case I don't see that as victim blaming at all. It's pointing out stupid irresponsible actions IMO.

It's like leaving your door wide open and getting robbed. Are the thieves entirely to blame for the whole crime no matter what? Yes. Did the victim deserve to get robbed? No. But did they make a ****ing stupid idiotic mistake? Yes.

I responded to sheriff though because they did say "so what if I'm blaming them" suggesting they were but oh well.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Surely the issue there though, is that a lot of people would brand the former as the latter? i.e pointing out that someone has engaged in risky behaviour is seen as "victim blaming" when it isn't actually assigning blame in any way.

No someone ''blaming victims'' is ''victim blaming'' that's why people accuse them of ''victim blaming'' especially when they admit they ''blame the victim''

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

No someone ''blaming victims'' is ''victim blaming'' that's why people accuse them of ''victim blaming'' especially when they admit they ''blame the victim''

But pointing out basic safety precautions e.g. staying in groups, not going off with relative strangers, not walking home alone or through secluded areas etc. is often lumped in as "victim blaming". I'm not saying that's happening here, but it does happen? A common reply being "people shouldn't have to do those things because people shouldn't rape!"... Which sort of goes without saying. Obviously rape and other assaults should never happen... But they do happen... And therefore, taking as many precautions as is feasible is important.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But pointing out basic safety precautions e.g. staying in groups, not going off with relative strangers, not walking home alone or through secluded areas etc. is often lumped in as "victim blaming". I'm not saying that's happening here, but it does happen? A common reply being "people shouldn't have to do those things because people shouldn't rape!"... Which sort of goes without saying. Obviously rape and other assaults should never happen... But they do happen... And therefore, taking as many precautions as is feasible is important.

Does that include how they dress - it is a fine line! Women in rape trials have always had their characters’ questioned? Par for the course.

Some cultures ostensibly ‘protect’ women by keeping them virtual prisoners in the home and not allowing them a voice. If they break the ‘rules’ the consequences can be severe. Victim blaming of women is rife across the board.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

No someone ''blaming victims'' is ''victim blaming'' that's why people accuse them of ''victim blaming'' especially when they admit they ''blame the victim''

you have failed to understand TS point

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But pointing out basic safety precautions e.g. staying in groups, not going off with relative strangers, not walking home alone or through secluded areas etc. is often lumped in as "victim blaming". I'm not saying that's happening here, but it does happen? A common reply being "people shouldn't have to do those things because people shouldn't rape!"... Which sort of goes without saying. Obviously rape and other assaults should never happen... But they do happen... And therefore, taking as many precautions as is feasible is important.

This happened in a group.. parties often contain people you don't know, how in this context is she in any way culpable?

Your foreshadowing of what could happen isn't relevant here.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

you have failed to understand TS point

ok