[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I saw a TikTok .

[Oliver_W]

If, as some theorise, Sturgeon put this through her Parliament as a "sacrificial lamb" -as she knew saner heads would prevail and block it- in order to further push for independence, she chose the worst thing to make it about. So few people would side with her in this issue, especially shen confronted with the reality of it.

Spoiler:

Jesus Christ I referred to the UK Government as "saner heads" ...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

A sad reality of parenting is that you have to involve yourself in such things - because you can't provide proper context and protection against social contagion if you're caught on the back foot.

Any parent of a teenager who isn't ok TikTok is asleep at the wheel. I genuinely believe that.

By the time the boys at my daughter's school started coming out with Andrew Tate crap, we already had her pre-prepped with all of the info she needed about people like Tate, how he operates, what his social media followers and acolytes are all about, plus a full history of Reddit redpill and how to handle those sorts of idiots.

You have to know what you're looking at to nip it in the bud.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

If, as some theorise, Sturgeon put this through her Parliament as a "sacrificial lamb" -as she knew saner heads would prevail and block it- in order to further push for independence, she chose the worst thing to make it about. So few people would side with her in this issue, especially shen confronted with the reality of it.

Spoiler:

Jesus Christ I referred to the UK Government as "saner heads" ...

I think that may be partially the case but I think it's massively backfired, I think at this point Sturgeon and pretty much anyone who backed her on this will have to go if the SNP is going to maintain its current dominant lead in Scottish politics.

The unfortunate other side of this though, is that the places that ex-SNP voters would normally go (Greens or Labour) are just as bad on this stuff and realistically most voters are not going to flip to Tory. I suspect many just won't vote at all. But then again, low turnout is generally speaking a positive from the Tory perspective.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I think that may be partially the case but I think it's massively backfired, I think at this point Sturgeon and pretty much anyone who backed her on this will have to go if the SNP is going to maintain its current dominant lead in Scottish politics.

The unfortunate other side of this though, is that the places that ex-SNP voters would normally go (Greens or Labour) are just as bad on this stuff and realistically most voters are not going to flip to Tory. I suspect many just won't vote at all. But then again, low turnout is generally speaking a positive from the Tory perspective.

You really think it could cost Sturgeon her place?! What's the general feeling toward her in Scotland? I've not heard much positivity toward her in years, but then a)I don't really care so don't seek it out b)I'm not Scottish so algos and lack of proximity limit what I'd hear anyway and c)social media is toxic.

[bots]

No, i think Sturgeon is so self righteous that she firmly believes her own bs. She thinks she is superior and unassailable in Scotland and given she has just pissed off at least 50% of her voters, maybe 80% she will have to go or the snp will be decimated. The others are bad, but labour aren't as bad as the snp, greens or lib dems, so i think there will be a general shift back to labour and conservative

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

You really think it could cost Sturgeon her place?! What's the general feeling toward her in Scotland? I've not heard much positivity toward her in years, but then a)I don't really care so don't seek it out b)I'm not Scottish so algos and lack of proximity limit what I'd hear anyway and c)social media is toxic.

I think she's lost significant ground with female voters even amongst those who have been dutifully voting yellow for the last decade+. And I don't think any of it gained her any votes at all from the flipside. I don't think she realized that it's a genuinely divisive issue - usually when they play virtue politics, the only people they're upsetting are those who are already staunch unionists (le jambon) so she's been able to do it freely to bolster support whilst not turning anyone away - those complaining were never, ever going to vote SNP. I think she thought this was the same... that it was a "usual" social justice issue and that only Tories and co would be bothered.

It's a massive error. You only need to look at this forum to see that as a microcosm, any social-justice minded person who is looking at the situation through an objective lens will have at least some concern for women's rights, women's safeguarding or at the very least respecting women's voices. The tactic has been to sweep a hand and denounce it as "bigotry!", and in fact much confusion for some who can't get their head around "people who they didn't think were bigots suddenly being bigots". Because of course... in their mind that's the only possibility. These people are bigots who have been taken in by right-wing rhetoric. Somehow. On just this issue. Despite having managed to not be taken in by "right wing rhetoric" on any other issue ... just this one.

It couldn't be that the issue is more nuanced than they'll let themselves believe ... no! To entertain that, would be bigotry...

/ rant

But yes I think Sturgeon has basically done that. Didn't know enough about it, forged ahead thinking she was only going to piss off Blues, ended up pissing off people who have wholeheartedly supported her for years.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

No, i think Sturgeon is so self righteous that she firmly believes her own bs. She thinks she is superior and unassailable in Scotland and given she has just pissed off at least 50% of her voters, maybe 80% she will have to go or the snp will be decimated. The others are bad, but labour aren't as bad as the snp, greens or lib dems, so i think there will be a general shift back to labour and conservative

I don't think many Tories ever shifted from Tory, I think you're right but realistically I think what that ends up looking like, is vote-splitting between SNP and Labour that allows the Tories more wins without actually getting more votes.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I think she's lost significant ground with female voters even amongst those who have been dutifully voting yellow for the last decade+. And I don't think any of it gained her any votes at all from the flipside. I don't think she realized that it's a genuinely divisive issue - usually when they play virtue politics, the only people they're upsetting are those who are already staunch unionists (le jambon) so she's been able to do it freely to bolster support whilst not turning anyone away - those complaining were never, ever going to vote SNP. I think she thought this was the same... that it was a "usual" social justice issue and that only Tories and co would be bothered.

It's a massive error. You only need to look at this forum to see that as a microcosm, any social-justice minded person who is looking at the situation through an objective lens will have at least some concern for women's rights, women's safeguarding or at the very least respecting women's voices. The tactic has been to sweep a hand and denounce it as "bigotry!", and in fact much confusion for some who can't get their head around "people who they didn't think were bigots suddenly being bigots". Because of course... in their mind that's the only possibility. These people are bigots who have been taken in by right-wing rhetoric. Somehow. On just this issue. Despite having managed to not be taken in by "right wing rhetoric" on any other issue ... just this one.

It couldn't be that the issue is more nuanced than they'll let themselves believe ... no! To entertain that, would be bigotry...

/ rant

But yes I think Sturgeon has basically done that. Didn't know enough about it, forged ahead thinking she was only going to piss off Blues, ended up pissing off people who have wholeheartedly supported her for years.

Yep. Yes to ALL of that.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Violent trans criminals are women, says Nicola Sturgeon's justice secretary

Keith Brown says if prisoners present as trans 'then we accept that at face
value' - despite banning rapist Isla Bryson from female prison





But he said they still did not have the right to be housed in women's prisons
and insisted the decision rested on a Scottish Prison Service (SPS) risk
assessment "with all the known facts."

He denied that his insistence that he trusted the SPS was undermined by him
banning the service from sending any more violent transgender offenders to
female prisons.

Mr Brown also said the Scottish Government would not review the Gender
Recognition Reform Bill in light of the Bryson and Scott cases to provide
more protections for women's spaces.

His ban does not cover the five trans criminals already serving their
sentences in female prisons but he said he understood that none had a
history of violence against women.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ans-criminals/

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I don't think many Tories ever shifted from Tory, I think you're right but realistically I think what that ends up looking like, is vote-splitting between SNP and Labour that allows the Tories more wins without actually getting more votes.

There's not really anywhere for disenfranchised Tory supporters to shift to, assuming they still hold all their same views but don't like the party in its current form; contrary to the beliefs of some, the differences between Labour and the Tories are greater than those between Labour and Green/LibDem/Etc.

Again this is coming from the distorted viewpoint of an Englander, if the cost of living crisis is hitting Scotland especially hard, then the last things they'll be worrying about is imminent independence and trans stuff.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Again this is coming from the distorted viewpoint of an Englander, if the cost of living crisis is hitting Scotland especially hard, then the last things they'll be worrying about is imminent independence and trans stuff.

I agree and that's what makes it all so bizarre - all the SNP had to do to continue sweeping elections was offer up some CoL crisis cushioning... even relatively small, if they offered meaningful support beyond what Westminster has mustered up, it would (rightly) have been a vote winner. Instead they've been distracted by other things, and also, I suspect tried to come at it from the other angle (things WOULD be better if we were independent, Westminster doesn't care about you, look how hard things are etc.)

Again I think that's a total blunder. All it really looks like in the end is "Westminster has ****ed us over but oh well we're not going to help either, we're going to have a 4 hour debate about prisons instead".

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

A sad reality of parenting is that you have to involve yourself in such things - because you can't provide proper context and protection against social contagion if you're caught on the back foot.

Any parent of a teenager who isn't ok TikTok is asleep at the wheel. I genuinely believe that.

By the time the boys at my daughter's school started coming out with Andrew Tate crap, we already had her pre-prepped with all of the info she needed about people like Tate, how he operates, what his social media followers and acolytes are all about, plus a full history of Reddit redpill and how to handle those sorts of idiots.

You have to know what you're looking at to nip it in the bud.

Agreed

plus i get sent tons to look at from my three and they covertly check to make sure iv watched them

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by hijaxers

Thats the BBC for ya ~ turned into unwatchable news years ago.

This is sadly true

[Niamh.]

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Hoisted by her own petard

[Oliver_W]

Jesus that's some good questioning.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Jesus that's some good questioning.

it's not really, she was asked 2 very simple questions and basically refused to answer them

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Tied in knots because of the linguistic dogma... it's ironically made it impossible to mount a convincing argument for ANY trans person.

"Trans women are women"
"Would any non-trans women be in a male prison?"
"No"
"But some trans women would be depending on circumstances?"
"Yes"
"So there's a difference between women and trans women?"
"No. Trans women are women."
"But only trans women, not other women, might sometimes be housed in male prisons."
"Correct."
"...why is that?"
".... ..."


The answer doesn't even have to be that trans identities aren't valid, or shouldn't be respected, or that they are men or male. All there needs to be is an acknowledgement that trans women and biological women are fundamentally different things. Which is quite clear to anyone being half way sensible.

THEN you can start to discuss the best solutions to all of the issues.

But I swear it all comes down to not wanting to give any ground "to the enemy". Nicola Sturgeon knows that trans women and biological women are not the same thing. It's all over her face. She's put herself in a position where she CANNOT say it, or she will be branded a heretic.

[GoldHeart]

This was always going to be a slippery slope sadly, and we've now got to the stage where people are too scared to even describe 'what a woman is' .

[Beso]

Sturgeons an idiot.

[Beso]

Speaking to Lewis Goodall of Global’s News Agents podcast, Sturgeon said:

‘There are people who have opposed this bill that cloak themselves in women’s rights to make it acceptable. But just as they’re transphobic you’ll also find they are deeply misogynist, often homophobic, possibly some of them racist as well.’

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Speaking to Lewis Goodall of Global’s News Agents podcast, Sturgeon said:

‘There are people who have opposed this bill that cloak themselves in women’s rights to make it acceptable. But just as they’re transphobic you’ll also find they are deeply misogynist, often homophobic, possibly some of them racist as well.’

"cloak themselves in women's rights" because no one could actually care about rapists being sent to prison with women, no no no, it's obvious they just hate trans people and probably black people and gay people too......... makes sense

[user104658]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Speaking to Lewis Goodall of Global’s News Agents podcast, Sturgeon said:

‘There are people who have opposed this bill that cloak themselves in women’s rights to make it acceptable. But just as they’re transphobic you’ll also find they are deeply misogynist, often homophobic, possibly some of them racist as well.’

What worries me THE MOST about this statement is that those are not her words from her own deduction - I've heard those words before, we all have, we hear them constantly. These are prescribed, copy-paste, groupthinky words. I 100% genuinely respect well thought out differences of opinions and opposing viewpoints but this generic stuff, I just can't stand it at the best of times, and when it's coming out of the mouthes of people in power it's even worse.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

"cloak themselves in women's rights" because no one could actually care about rapists being sent to prison with women, no no no, it's obvious they just hate trans people and probably black people and gay people too......... makes sense

We've gone so far the other way...that common sense has well and truly left the building. Today on Jeremy Vine ,they were still calling this rapist a "she" .